technically you can, but the amount of speed and aim that is needed to carry the overall pp anchored by the accuracy factor is probably either on par or higher than rrtyui

since pp uses only the end results, perhaps tom could make a program that can calculate pp gained from arbitrary input values

19k>40k yea i guess kinda pp farm when i think about it after i raged about the drop this system is good only needs to fix bugs and real time update's.I have a suggestion it would be cool to be somewhere written how much pp and acc you gain or lose for a song,lets say under historical tab there would be
<song name> +9pp +0,03 acc or +2pp -0,01 acc.

It would be neat if we had a way to submit a pending map to the difficulty calculator and get a difficulty value/set of values.

1) It'll allow the players to provide more accurate feedback in fine-tuning the weightings of components of the calculator, and
2) It provides a slightly more objective measure of difficulty to discuss creating an even spread of difficulties, or if a Normal is "too hard", prior to ranking.

Since I got a 2200# in my top ranking, can we say that the "top 900 to be ranked" is over and we just need to perform the best we can ? That would be a huge relief for the new insaners

I wasted so much time on this game and I play so much time.. From 6k rank I'm already 18k rank. Guys I hope that ppv2 will change algorithm

BerserQ wrote:

I wasted so much time on this game and I play so much time.. From 6k rank I'm already 18k rank. Guys I hope that ppv2 will change algorithm

You wasted time farming hards and got what you deserved. Sounds pretty good.

buny wrote:

technically you can, but the amount of speed and aim that is needed to carry the overall pp anchored by the accuracy factor is probably either on par or higher than rrtyui

since pp uses only the end results, perhaps tom could make a program that can calculate pp gained from arbitrary input values

it is still very possible to still get pp from C ranks. In my user profile you can see a map that i got a C on is one of my top scores (and I'm rank 9k) because its just that difficult.

well, I was speaking relatively to wishy's scores

some food for thought

unlike accuracy plays where you retry a map until you get good accuracy on that map, for speed plays you usually train externally. whether it's on streamy maps like ascension to heaven that you like to play or those stream practice maps that many people uploaded, and whether it's spending a month playing with HR or simply playing a lot of jumpy maps -

in the end, when you get that "1 random play that went into my top performance. wtf. I didn't work hard for it", you did work for it and for quite some time. it's not a play you were capable of doing from your first day of playing osu, and it's not a play that the people you suddenly pass with this rank can do even if they retry it 20 times.

getting rewarded for single tries on a map doesn't mean the map is too easy and doesn't deserve its points and something-p being broken, it just means you are good enough to collect the points this map gives. If you still think a map is imbalanced in the system, call all your friends to try it too.

don't forget that each player has different strengths. a player practicing only streams all day might FC a deathstream maps and then go and say "wtf, this isn't hard took me like 2-3 tries, meanwhile pudding is crazy hard for me and doesn't give much more".
and then another player who spends most of his time on playing jumpy maps literally all day long might eventually get some high combo on a difficult jump map and go "huh, I'm getting points from this random shitty play, but this stream map is completely impossible for me even after many tries and doesn't seem to give as much points wtf?", but in the end you're just getting rewarded for what you're good at.

try to put things into perspective before writing suggestions for this system, maybe ask several other people to play the same maps as you and see how they do on them. you might be surprised at how difficult some things are to other people that look super easy to you, and how stuff you feel is impossible other people can accomplish quickly and relatively effortlessly.

Aqo wrote:

:lol: some food for thought

unlike accuracy plays where you retry a map until you get good accuracy on that map, for speed plays you usually train externally. whether it's on streamy maps like ascension to heaven that you like to play or those stream practice maps that many people uploaded, and whether it's spending a month playing with HR or simply playing a lot of jumpy maps -

in the end, when you get that "1 random play that went into my top performance. wtf. I didn't work hard for it", you did work for it and for quite some time. it's not a play you were capable of doing from your first day of playing osu, and it's not a play that the people you suddenly pass with this rank can do even if they retry it 20 times.

getting rewarded for single tries on a map doesn't mean the map is too easy and doesn't deserve its points and something-p being broken, it just means you are good enough to collect the points this map gives. If you still think a map is imbalanced in the system, call all your friends to try it too.

don't forget that each player has different strengths. a player practicing only streams all day might FC a deathstream maps and then go and say "wtf, this isn't hard took me like 2-3 tries, meanwhile pudding is crazy hard for me and doesn't give much more".
and then another player who spends most of his time on playing jumpy maps literally all day long might eventually get some high combo on a difficult jump map and go "huh, I'm getting points from this random shitty play, but this stream map is completely impossible for me even after many tries and doesn't seem to give as much points wtf?", but in the end you're just getting rewarded for what you're good at.

try to put things into perspective before writing suggestions for this system, maybe ask several other people to play the same maps as you and see how they do on them. you might be surprised at how difficult some things are to other people that look super easy to you, and how stuff you feel is impossible other people can accomplish quickly and relatively effortlessly.

On the other hand, I gave him 3~ TV Sizes and two average lenghty maps for hr (both of which gave the least pp) and he went from rank 700 to 600 in about an hour.

On these issues I feel conflicted. Sometimes it feels like I've found a plausable theory as to how the system works and then this tags along, destroying my theory about bpm, speed, lenght and difficulty.

I guess high BPM 1/2 maps still are not being properly judged by the system. This happened on osu!tp too.

Wishy wrote:

I guess high BPM 1/2 maps still are not being properly judged by the system. This happened on osu!tp too.

ah yeah, that's why

I wish that there was not only a list of your best performences, but also one for your worst. That way you aren't taken down in rank by plays that are months old that you forgot about, instead of just taking a shot at a play that looks bad, that may not be considered bad at all. (also got a new best performance ang gained 0pp. I'll just assume its a bug)

[Tums] wrote:

I wish that there was not only a list of your best performences, but also one for your worst. That way you aren't taken down in rank by plays that are months old that you forgot about, instead of just taking a shot at a play that looks bad, that may not be considered bad at all. (also got a new best performance ang gained 0pp. I'll just assume its a bug)

You don't lose pp for a bad play unless you just did a worse play that had higher score.

Kytoxid wrote:

It would be neat if we had a way to submit a pending map to the difficulty calculator and get a difficulty value/set of values.

1) It'll allow the players to provide more accurate feedback in fine-tuning the weightings of components of the calculator, and
2) It provides a slightly more objective measure of difficulty to discuss creating an even spread of difficulties, or if a Normal is "too hard", prior to ranking.

t/164057

you can

the algorithm may have changed since this was 3 months ago, but if you get this set up and press ctrl shift A in map edit, it gives you a set of values which you can convert to tp for both aim and speed

OT: new pp is amazing, only tweak i would suggest is making FL's aim bonus scale with map length instead of being a flat bonus (i don't even like FL players but this only seems fair)

well, the most unexpected thing in this new ppv2 system is that its algorithm is totally different than osu!tp....look at my profile to see the difference between my tp and pp TT^TT

Mine shows a completely different picture.. All my Top TP scores = Top PP exacly!

Even my ranks on both systems are close to each other.

Kinji wrote:

well, the most unexpected thing in this new ppv2 system is that its algorithm is totally different than osu!tp....look at my profile to see the difference between my tp and pp TT^TT

It was never supposed to be tp, peppy bringing Tom into this is something we had no idea about. Where did you get the idea that ppv2 was going to be identical, or even similar to tp?

Draxuss wrote:

It was never supposed to be tp, peppy bringing Tom into this is something we had no idea about. Where did you get the idea that ppv2 was going to be identical, or even similar to tp?

Well, because when peppy says that ppv2 is going to measure the player skills, and unable to farm easily, I thought it should be something like the tp system, since it measures the speed, aim and accuracy of the player....which is closest to measuring a player skills....

Akari- wrote:

Kytoxid wrote:

[...] only tweak i would suggest is making FL's aim bonus scale with map length instead of being a flat bonus (i don't even like FL players but this only seems fair)

pp already scales with map length and thus a flat multiplier on your aim points indirectly has map length scaling inside it, too.

I got None S on Tsukasa - Accelerator [Maximum]. It was my 5th Best Perfomance List.

and I got Hidden S on that beatmap today. but It deleted my Best Perfomance List.

What's going on?

[UsaMi] Reisen wrote:

I got None S on Tsukasa - Accelerator [Maximum]. It was my 5th Best Perfomance List.

and I got Hidden S on that beatmap today. but It deleted my Best Perfomance List.

What's going on?

Your accuracy went worse.

Well, at the first look the ppv2 made a really good impression for me.. But at the second look.. Kaykay, it's basically based on skill and stuff. Perfect so far. But... Everytime I reach a highscore on any map, including mods and stuff, my pp just DROPS down. My accuracy never is worse than 98,5%.

Playing new insane maps w/ DT and HD (rank #6) - my pp drops.
Playing new hard maps WITHOUT any mods - nothing happens.

Are you serious?.. I don't have any pleasure to play Osu! anymore, just because I feel tricked with this new system..
Even some friends of me who actually are much worse than me overtake my rank.

Conclusion: Are you serious dude? ;_;

Nyzashi wrote:

Well, at the first look the ppv2 made a really good impression for me.. But at the second look.. Kaykay, it's basically based on skill and stuff. Perfect so far. But... Everytime I reach a highscore on any map, including mods and stuff, my pp just DROPS down. My accuracy never is worse than 98,5%.

Playing new insane maps w/ DT and HD (rank #6) - my pp drops.
Playing new hard maps WITHOUT any mods - nothing happens.

Are you serious?.. I don't have any pleasure to play Osu! anymore, just because I feel tricked with this new system..
Even some friends of me who actually are much worse than me overtake my rank.

Conclusion: Are you serious dude? ;_;

Your pp literally can not drop unless you're beating old scores of yourself with scores that pp considers worse. Which rank you get on a specific map is irrelevant - the system only looks at the quality of your score and the map.

Tom94 wrote:

Your pp literally can not drop unless you're beating old scores of yourself with scores that pp considers worse. Which rank you get on a specific map is irrelevant - the system only looks at the quality of your score and the map.

Mkay.. Anyways. It doesn't make sense at all. It happens to me at EVERY map. I was also beating some old scores. My pp just drops down more and more. And i've just no loss anymore. I won't even try to top old scores, or download new beatmaps. Because i don't want my pp to be too scrappy e.e

Nyzashi wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Your pp literally can not drop unless you're beating old scores of yourself with scores that pp considers worse. Which rank you get on a specific map is irrelevant - the system only looks at the quality of your score and the map.

Mkay.. Anyways. It doesn't make sense at all. It happens to me at EVERY map. I was also beating some old scores. My pp just drops down more and more. And i've just no loss anymore. I won't even try to top old scores, or download new beatmaps. Because i don't want my pp to be too scrappy e.e

Your best performance scores consist of Insane full-combo scores. Don't expect to top them off with the [Hard] scores you've been doing recently. What you are most likely seeing dropping is your rank, not your pp. That one is not dropping because you are playing other maps, but because other people simply rise higher while you stay where you are.

Try playing and full-comboing harder maps if you want to gain more pp.

Tom94 wrote:

Your best performance scores consist of Insane full-combo scores. Don't expect to top them off with the [Hard] scores you've been doing recently. What you are most likely seeing dropping is your rank, not your pp. That one is not dropping because you are playing other maps, but because other people simply rise higher while you stay where you are.

Try playing and full-comboing harder maps if you want to gain more pp.

Okay I feel really dumb now.. But it STILL doesn't make very much sense to me ._. The scores change as soon as I play an Insane map with a full combo. (Including mods). I also reach a high rank score very often. It seems correct to me that my rank is changing basing on the other players activity. But it always happens AFTER I hit a new highscore on any insane map. When I'm playing hard maps, just to gain another S / SS, not to gain more pp, nothing happens.

It's still weird in my eyes and I just don't understand that..

Kk. Thank you anyways ._.

As a player with not that high a ranking I just want to say: it feels downright depressing to beat a score in your top 10 (I've done this 4 times today) and then not only not gain pp for it, but also have it drop from your top 10. it seems like this is happening because of accuracy being worse, but the fact that we cant choose which score is considered combined with the fact that higherscore=/= most pp anymore is INCREDIBLY frustrating. I feel like there's no point trying to fc things i haven't before or using mods because even if I manage a better score (the point of a rhythm game?) I might not necessarily see any gain from it. It feels like I'm being punished for trying to beat my score not rewarded.
EDIT: I just checked one of the situations where a rank dropped from my top 10. I played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/281672 and had an A rank 300ish combo FC being 584. This popped into my top 10 today for some reason (the score was old so i assumed from reshuffling of how the maps are measured). Anyway, i then proceeded to FC the map with a HIGHER accuracy, and now it is GONE from my top 10. No mods were used in either playthrough. Please someone explain this makes no sense to me.

It seems like accuracy is much more valuated than before. I had a DT score with 1x100, then "improved" it by using HD in addition to DT and got 6x100 FC. By overwriting this score I even lost some pp. Afterwards I improved the score again, making this time 1x100 (with DT+HD) and got over 15 pp for that.

I also noticed the same behaviour for a HD SS score which got replaced by a 97.44% HD+HR. As it is right now, it seems that it is only worth playing with HD+HR if you actually can archive 98%+ accuracy with it.

Nyzashi...

The argument you formed which made you say pp doesn't make sense to you was that your pp was decreasing after getting some FC on some random map, Tom told you it didn't and that what was dropping was your rank. After that you still say it doesn't make any sense without any argument.

Have you thought about the fact that you check your rank AFTER PLAYING A MAP AND GETTING A SCORE THAT COULD AFFECT YOUR RANK which means you will ONLY NOTICE CHANGES ON YOUR RANK AFTER PLAYING A MAP SINCE THAT'S WHEN YOU CHECK IT? Also, the system itself probably takes time to update stuff so it might happen that changes are shown suddenly after some specific period of time.

To be honest, I really dislike that new ranking system. And I'm not saying this, because it dropped me by 10k ranks.
It just ranks those with little skill way too high. Some friends of mine occasionally rank somewhere in the thousands of an insane map. (Usually not even with a full combo.) What sucks is, that these guys rank way too high by just performing shitty on maps which are just too hard for them.
This system doesn't evaluate the performance according to the skill as promised, else these guys wouldn't rank in the mid 2k's now.
It's not fun to see unskilled people cruising around in the front while being thrown behind by some pointless logic. The way it is now, the game is really not fun to play anymore. I just hope we can get some fairer ranking system.

xBeater wrote:

To be honest, I really dislike that new ranking system. And I'm not saying this, because it dropped me by 10k ranks.
It just ranks those with little skill way too high. Some friends of mine occasionally rank somewhere in the thousands of an insane map. (Usually not even with a full combo.) What sucks is, that these guys rank way too high by just performing shitty on maps which are just too hard for them.
This system doesn't evaluate the performance according to the skill as promised, else these guys wouldn't rank in the mid 2k's now.
It's not fun to see unskilled people cruising around in the front while being thrown behind by some pointless logic. The way it is now, the game is really not fun to play anymore. I just hope we can get some fairer ranking system.

Could you give specific examples? I highly doubt that players who "can't even FC Insanes" are ranked "in the 2000s".

Dalvoid wrote:

As a player with not that high a ranking I just want to say: it feels downright depressing to beat a score in your top 10 (I've done this 4 times today) and then not only not gain pp for it, but also have it drop from your top 10. it seems like this is happening because of accuracy being worse, but the fact that we cant choose which score is considered combined with the fact that higherscore=/= most pp anymore is INCREDIBLY frustrating. I feel like there's no point trying to fc things i haven't before or using mods because even if I manage a better score (the point of a rhythm game?) I might not necessarily see any gain from it. It feels like I'm being punished for trying to beat my score not rewarded.
EDIT: I just checked one of the situations where a rank dropped from my top 10. I played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/281672 and had an A rank 300ish combo FC being 584. This popped into my top 10 today for some reason (the score was old so i assumed from reshuffling of how the maps are measured). Anyway, i then proceeded to FC the map with a HIGHER accuracy, and now it is GONE from my top 10. No mods were used in either playthrough. Please someone explain this makes no sense to me.

it's still there man, what the hell are you smoking?

Luna wrote:

Could you give specific examples? I highly doubt that players who "can't even FC Insanes" are ranked "in the 2000s".

I'm not going to name these people here, for obvious reasons.
But what I mean is practically: they finish the map with an A or B and are like #~1-2k in the overall map ranking, but get an insane amount of points.
I won't deny that they did some really good scores but never enough to rank that high. Most of the time it's just like the case I described above.

xBeater wrote:

Luna wrote:

Could you give specific examples? I highly doubt that players who "can't even FC Insanes" are ranked "in the 2000s".

I'm not going to name these people here, for obvious reasons.
But what I mean is practically: they finish the map with an A or B and are like #~1-2k in the overall map ranking, but get an insane amount of points.
I won't deny that they did some really good scores but never enough to rank that high. Most of the time it's just like the case I described above.

If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?

­

Liiraye wrote:

If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?

I'm not talking about one or two misses, seriously though. And I don't care about how 'good' a player is. My problem is just that according to these principles this system should be based on, these players definitely shouldn't rank that high in the overall pp ranking. In my opinion this can't be fair.
And maps I'm referring to are for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/209576?m=0 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/221898?m=0 (cba to look for more).
I guess I just have to deal with this system for now.

xBeater wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?

I'm not talking about one or two misses, seriously though. And I don't care about how 'good' a player is. My problem is just that according to these principles this system should be based on, these players definitely shouldn't rank that high in the overall pp ranking. In my opinion this can't be fair.
And maps I'm referring to are for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/209576?m=0 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/221898?m=0 (cba to look for more).
I guess I just have to deal with this system for now.

Well right now the pp system is under heavy recalculations. I for example (I'm rank 3k~) got pp for getting rank 4k and even rank 12k(!) on a map (miss in the middle with dt)

The combo system should be revamped as well imo. Since ppv2 apparently favors accuracy and speed above all, I don't see the point in using combo as the factor to determine the global rank in a specific map. If someone fc's with hidden and get like rank 400 while I miss in the middle, get rank 6k and only I get pp, the rankings doesn't matter, now do they?

Is this a step to turning mods into individual rankings, Tom? I heard peppy talk about that before.

xBeater wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?

I'm not talking about one or two misses, seriously though. And I don't care about how 'good' a player is. My problem is just that according to these principles this system should be based on, these players definitely shouldn't rank that high in the overall pp ranking. In my opinion this can't be fair.
And maps I'm referring to are for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/209576?m=0 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/221898?m=0 (cba to look for more).
I guess I just have to deal with this system for now.

So you consider an S on a hard diff better than an A on an insane diff?
The system calculates difficulties within the beatmap, like big jumps, fast motions, streams and difficult patterns! << These are very common in insane difficulties, in hard or normals difficulties the maps are much much easier, hard diffs almost never have big jumps or streams so I don't see why they should give a lot of ranks?

tldr; would you be more impressed by a DT hard score, or an A insane score on a fairly difficult insane

Could This Be wrote:

tldr; would you be more impressed by a DT hard score, or an A insane score on a fairly difficult insane

I would be more impressed by a DT hard score.
But whatever, I don't see a point in farther discussions about this. Guess I just have to take it as it is.