I don't believe there's much to elaborate on here, but I don't believe that popularity of a keymode or the playstyle of the keymode should be a barrier to its ability to have ranked maps. There are plenty of quality 1k maps that could theoretically be eligible for ranking. There are players who play higher keymodes than 10k.

It is true that there wouldn't be many players, mappers, or BNs for these maps, and that these anti-meta keymodes might be relatively "dead" in the ranked section. However, I do believe rankability might increase popularity of these keymodes somewhat.

One problem that arises when entire keymodes are banned from the ranked section is the lack of leaderboards for these maps as a whole. Since these keymodes are relatively unpopular, there's very little demand for them in the loved section in the first place, and the loved section was never intended to be a dumping ground for maps that don't fit RC. So they generally just end up in the graveyard.

The one issue with nominating ALL keymodes is the representation of not only the song but the patterns seem to get extremely restrictive.

- If we are talking more than 10keys (11,12 etc), that is a pretty tough order considering we only have 10 fingers and that would mean the alternation of fingers on keyboards, and there are actually people who play more than 10 keymodes too, but it's really hard to judge these modes for what they are as well.

_________________________________________________

Not only that but I don’t think ranking keymodes less than 4 is a good idea due to the fact that:

1K : This keymode is extremely restrictive and to create a jack continuously is something that’s let’s say similar to standard just not mapped like standard.This mode would hinder most of what we know as "emphasis and representation" since there is only a certain emphasis being represented in this mode.

2K : 2k is also very restrictive but is also extremely similar to taiko. So therefore blending these modes together might not be the best idea. That's just a general summary of it haha.

3K : with 3k it technically COULD, but these patterns restrict graces and also restrict the structure compared to that of 4k. Not only that but these patterns would end up playing more inconsistently considering the emphasis and restriction of patterns might be too much still.

Overall Thoughts?
The idea could be nice if implemented properly, but I don’t think allowing lower keymodes ranked would be a good idea due to the restrictiveness of each of those keymodes listed above.

I have to degree with Decku here the lower keymodes are super restrictive and 11K as far as i know doesnt exist so every keymode above 10K are in increments of 2 since it relies on the Coop mode and honestly its just not something really well implemented. I think it would be a better idea if these keymodes if they have maps that are worthy try and push for being able to get loved to start off.

The adjustments that needs to be done on documentation and RC with consideration to 1-3k is too much to give way for a net increase of like 5 more charts ranked per year

10k+ is cool tho and shouldn't disrupt too much, dk how much of a bearing this would have on lazer's end

Just gonna be brutally honest with this one.

The "popularity" of a keymode or the playstyle isn't the barrier to having ranked maps.
It's the logistics of it.

How do you reasonably judge the quality of a 1K map? What about all the nuances? What stops me from raking a guitar hero controller and setting a new pp PB score?

How do we deal with the opposite end, of 18K? How do you even reasonably map that on a keyboard, and then considering that, pattern for it? What about 6K rollover limits for these higher end keys?

The limits to the keymodes we have in place right now are what we can feasibly support in terms of judging mapping quality (and even then i still think 10K is pushing that limit).

Bringing these keymodes to ranked isn't going to effect their popularity, and if it does, it will only be negatively (for people looking to inflate pp, not for actual quality (in terms of the lower end keymodes)). If people want to map for these right now, they will just do it.

From player perspective, 1K to 3K can be technically cheated with multibind keyboards:

1. Playing 1K can be cheated as 4K since 1K is just what some one-tap games would look like (see ADOFAI, Rhythm Doctor).
2. 2K is the similar, except it's technically plays the same as osu!taiko. At this rate just play a proper osu!taiko map.
3. 3K can be cheated as 5K or 6K even. Especially on higher density maps, 3K is just like playing VSRG on portait phones.

This kind of unfair advantage makes ranking 1K to 3K seems to be implausible at the best. Multi-binding is really discouraged on rankable keycounts (unless it's a 5K+1 and 7K+1 maps due to its origin nature, where S key can be officially double-bind as forward/back scratch).
I don't want to see a ranking board of 1K infested with people who have macro keyboards and rebound their space key to DFJK. You too, right?

I can’t speak for much on keymodes above 10K, though I can imagine how that’s going to be incredibly hard to judge as we are restricted by our 10 fingers. I do not feel that above 10K is appropriate for the ranking section.

1K and 2K is a no from me. You can pull out a massage gun and go to town, thats not gonna be the greatest. Additionally, charts will almost have no diversity due to the only difference in charts being rhythm and BPM.

As for 3K, I can maybe see how 3K would work, but at some point, harder charts are going to look very similar. Beatstar is a great example of 3K charting and towards harder songs, patterns begin to look the same and the difficulty starts to fall into flick notes, which mania lacks.
I have been commissioned for 3K charts in the past and I can say that theres only so much diversity you can get before charts begin to look the same at a certain difficulty level. Perhaps 3K is best for loved section for now as no PP is awarded.

Overall
I don’t agree with ranking above 10K, nor 2K and 1K. However for 3K it would be interesting to see in loved.

I don't care much for keymods < 4k, but I am very confused as to why the number digits on both hands should be a significant barrier to allowing > 10k being ranked. For a game that is about overcoming challenges by acquiring skills to rank up it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to put a hard block on keymodes > 10k just because of this. If you have no imagination how such maps can be played then you have not tried hard enough become better at such keymodes. It is possible albeit also very difficult even for low stars, but that is the fun in it. Also there is an 18k loved map here (kinda 18k?). All in all, I firmly believe anyone who is protesting against rankability of > 10k because of that is going against the spirit of this game.

Now onto the obvious - hardware. There is merit to this argument and I admit when I tried to become good at 14k several years back I had to do it using 2 keyboards instead of one. This was not just to eliminate rollover limits but to also have some additional freedom with hand placement. I tend to believe such high key amounts are no longer in the realm of casual play, which makes it entirely expected for players wanting to pursue such higher skills barriers to be investing in specialized hardware. This does go against the design of the game, and it will always be a contentious point until we become honest enough as a community to admit that high level play with regular hardware/setup is an unlikely combination.

Perhaps this would not be a problem if PP were split by keymode proper.

abraker wrote:

I don't care much for keymods < 4k, but I am very confused as to why the number digits on both hands should be a significant barrier to allowing > 10k being ranked. For a game that is about overcoming challenges by acquiring skills to rank up it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to put a hard block on keymodes > 10k just because of this. If you have no imagination how such maps can be played then you have not tried hard enough become better at such keymodes. It is possible albeit also very difficult even for low stars, but that is the fun in it. Also there is an 18k loved map here (kinda 18k?). All in all, I firmly believe anyone who is protesting against rankability of > 10k because of that is going against the spirit of this game.

I do believe being open minded about the situation does give perspective that there ARE people who play more than 10 keys. But this community is also way too small to justify adding them. Even if they were allowed, as stated there would have to be a completely different workaround to the plugin and it would have to get implemented into lazer.

I myself do believe that it's a tough concept to add in considering the plugin would need to be added, but I also think that it might be too much effort to add as the community is far too small for there to know any such difference. If you could please provide some more in depth analysis?

Thank you! <3

Hello, I want to give my two cents about keymodes above 10 since I play 18K.

For context, >10 keymodes typically have a couple different viable playstyles:

-Most popular 12K style would be 10K2S, where the player can scratch with either pinkies or thumbs. There is an alternate 6K6K style where the player plays 6K on two rows of the keyboard
-14K and 16K are pretty much only played as 7K DP and 7K1S DP (BMS style). XDerbyX is a very proficient 14K2Ser
-18K has two popular playstyles: 9K DP (BMS Style) played by [Sick]CatCat for example, or 4K+10K+4K (10K layout, meanwhile outer 4K parts are played on a different row), played by me and DesKurisu

I want to make an argument at least for the ranking of keymodes above 10.

I don't think there should be any reason to be worried over having an inaccessible meta in these high keymodes, to answer abraker's concern about hardware. For what it's worth, I can say at least as an 18K player that difficulty spikes VERY early in terms of SR, because most of the difficulty comes from moving your fingers to the correct keys rather than the density of the map. "PP Inflation" of these higher keymodes is hardly a concern incase anybody was worried about that. We can discuss further if y'all want deeper explanation.

Furthermore to expound on abraker's concerns, 7K, 8K, 9K, and 10K are already pushing accessibility for some players because not all keyboards have enough rollover. Some people prefer wider hand placement by using the numpad, but not all people have numpads either. At the very least, I can say all keymodes, 10 and above, have at least one viable key layout on a 60%, albeit maybe not the most comfortable.

To answer Hydria's question on how higher keymodes are mapped, well, there are keyboard layouts that have been or are being utilized for all these keymodes.

Ranking modes above 10 should obviously rely on reasonable playability. It they were to get added, perhaps RC should require proof of playability through playtests or the such since there is such little precedent for what can be done and so much uncharted (pun intended) territory.

Since there are multiple playstyles in these higher modes, they could simply be labelled with their layout, similar to how 8K maps now are either played as 7K1S or full 8K.

Overall, I would like to see keymodes above 10K become rankable. The pros, ultimately, would be to give us some extra leaderboards and perhaps some new interested players. Cons? Not as accessible as lower keymodes, some ambiguity in playstyle, and lack of precedent (The former 2 of which already exists in current rankable keymodes, I don't think they should be held against us)

So I thought I'd just drop in some of my thoughts, not responding to anyone in particular within this post. These are mainly my thoughts regarding more general arguments that I've picked up on or thought about over time.

An argument I've heard people use is that "the main con of 3k is the restrictiveness of the columns. Little to no column emphasis." I don't think that this is a significant problem. There are maps that use this restraint to their advantage, and others that follow it really well. For example, I think the 3k map of "Divine Light of Myriad" is pretty unique and does something interesting with the 3-column restriction.

Another thing to note is playstyle. A lot of people think of 3k as 4k with 1 less key or as 5k without the outer keys. But I think there is much more room for patterning if you consider a playstyle like this. With this '2 fingers per key' playstyle, you can still have patterns similar to jumptrills and one-handed trills, but the different playstyle allows you to do something unique with them and other patterns alike.

As for 1k and 2k, they are harder for me to personally make arguments for, but they do have a merit. Despite the fact they can be compared to a more restrictive taiko, they still have communities around them and it is certainly possible to make decent maps for them, such as Niv's loved set.

For all three of these keymodes, I agree that there doesnt need to be a huge player base to start off with, and as long as there is any interest at all from players, I think they're valid for consideration. For example, even if there are only like 20 maps ever ranked for 3k, as long as those maps are able to be made with good quality, I think they should have the right to enter the ranked section and not be blocked off because of a rule that is somewhat arbitrary from the perspective of the map itself.

Also, there's one thing I want to mention on >10k ranked. With all currently rankable keymodes, there is basically only one playstyle, with the outlier being 8k sometimes being 7k1s. With higher keymodes, this isn't the case, which can cause a bit of confusion of how a map should be played. I think there would need to be some sort of rule or guideline for ranking that tells you to specify what playstyle your map is intended for. For example, instead of putting [18K], you'd put [4+10+4K] or [9+9K]. Also, this could retroactively apply to now 8K maps, having the mapper specify whether they're [8K] or [7+1K] (or [7K1S], the terminology may or may not have to be standardized).

Rant/moral opinion dump:
Will or will not go in-depth with my opinions on the true logistics of this soon.

As a semi-active player of mostly 10K but also 18K, I would like to start by asking why key modes above 10K are even rejected as a concept for ranked.




Sorry for this really big block of text. Just wanted to get my opinion thrown in the mix (:
Also, it's 2:30 AM so I kind of want to go to sleep, I will or will not clean this up and maybe make my points stronger when I wake up.

Shad0wStar wrote:

1K and 2K is a no from me. You can pull out a massage gun and go to town, thats not gonna be the greatest. Additionally, charts will almost have no diversity due to the only difference in charts being rhythm and BPM.

As for 3K, I can maybe see how 3K would work, but at some point, harder charts are going to look very similar. Beatstar is a great example of 3K charting and towards harder songs, patterns begin to look the same and the difficulty starts to fall into flick notes, which mania lacks.
I have been commissioned for 3K charts in the past and I can say that theres only so much diversity you can get before charts begin to look the same at a certain difficulty level. Perhaps 3K is best for loved section for now as no PP is awarded.

Charts with little diversity don't have to be ranked. There are plenty of interesting and rhythmically diverse 1K, charts in the form of the JOKE and JOKE2 mappools, as well as the "Finger" map series by Sparxe, among others. I'm not arguing we should rank 3 minutes of straight 165bpm 1/4.

Additionally, I'm not really sure what your point is with the massage gun. That only really works on EXTREMELY fast maps, far past the limit of rankability, and you cannot get any decent accuracy with such a method. There is a common misconception that 1k maps are easy, simple, or cheesable. The same applies to 2k.

And as far as Loved section goes, most 1-3k maps submitted on loved.sh meet rejection as they don't meet popularity requirements (they are not "loved" enough) and again, loved was never meant to be a dumping ground for unrankable maps.

I do believe many good points have been brought up here in reference to 1-3k regarding its limited nature. However, I also believe a test run might also be worthwhile, just trying out qualifying a singular 1k-3k mapset of high quality.

Hydria mentioned (I'd make a second quote but idk how) that people may look for SR inflation in lower keymodes. I don't believe that is possible. There are a few "playable" 1k maps in the 6*+ range. None of them have higher scores than 93% to the best of my knowledge. The majority of high difficulty 1k maps sit in the 4-5* range. The opposite of your sentiment is actually true, 1k experiences severe star rating DEflation. In a similar vein, your comment about raking a guitar hero controller is unreasonable for the same reason as Shad0wStar's comment about massage guns. This technique would simply not be applicable in any decently crafted high-level map. As far as how quality can be judged, there is a small but dedicated community of 1k mappers of which I am not really part (my only 1k map falls into the restricted repetitive pattern that renders so many 1k maps unrankable. i.e. skill issue on my end as far as mapping goes) and I'd imagine that they might have a better response as far as that goes. I can ask some of them if they'd be willing to chime in here.

Decku, you do raise good points about the restrictiveness of the keymodes. However, I am somewhat confused about your argument dealing with 2k. How can 2k be simultaneously very restrictive and very similar to taiko, a mode with thousands of very different ranked maps? Additionally, 2k and taiko do have some different gameplay elements from each other, although I agree that they are very similar in general. As far as 1k goes, song choice matters much more in this gamemode than in any other, as having rhythms that can be represented in interesting ways is imperative. For example, 1karuga or Pictured as Perfect. The bar for song choice is much higher in this gamemode than in others. Emphasis and representation can occur in a ***somewhat*** similar way to taiko in that they happen rhythmically. In my opinion, the good and interesting maps should still be rankable, even if that's a smaller portion of the total mappool than in other gamemodes.

Tailsdk, as far as the odd numbered 10k+ keymodes go, these do exist, but can only be created in the notepad, not the editor. However, the same goes for CS0 and CS10 in standard, both of which are rankable. I don't believe there's established communities for many of these, but I think they could all function as +1 versions of the keymodes before them. But we probably wouldn't really end up seeing those. I think EZ2DJ might have an odd keymode higher than 10k but I don't remember.

As people seem rather resitant to low keymodes being rankable, I'd also totally be fine with them being loved more often, as there are plenty of maps popular within these communities that are highly worthy of loved but get overlooked due to low popularity. If we can come to a compromise in loved with seeing these keymodes more often (more than once ever) I don't believe ranked would really be necessary. My post is more from the perspective of a low keymode player, so that's why I've focused on these in my reply, as I'l leave the 10k+ stuff to that community.

[LS]Ham wrote:

Shad0wStar wrote:

1K and 2K is a no from me. You can pull out a massage gun and go to town, thats not gonna be the greatest. Additionally, charts will almost have no diversity due to the only difference in charts being rhythm and BPM.

As for 3K, I can maybe see how 3K would work, but at some point, harder charts are going to look very similar. Beatstar is a great example of 3K charting and towards harder songs, patterns begin to look the same and the difficulty starts to fall into flick notes, which mania lacks.
I have been commissioned for 3K charts in the past and I can say that theres only so much diversity you can get before charts begin to look the same at a certain difficulty level. Perhaps 3K is best for loved section for now as no PP is awarded.

Charts with little diversity don't have to be ranked. There are plenty of interesting and rhythmically diverse 1K, charts in the form of the JOKE and JOKE2 mappools, as well as the "Finger" map series by Sparxe, among others. I'm not arguing we should rank 3 minutes of straight 165bpm 1/4.

Additionally, I'm not really sure what your point is with the massage gun. That only really works on EXTREMELY fast maps, far past the limit of rankability, and you cannot get any decent accuracy with such a method. There is a common misconception that 1k maps are easy, simple, or cheesable. The same applies to 2k.

And as far as Loved section goes, most 1-3k maps submitted on loved.sh meet rejection as they don't meet popularity requirements (they are not "loved" enough) and again, loved was never meant to be a dumping ground for unrankable maps.

I do believe many good points have been brought up here in reference to 1-3k regarding its limited nature. However, I also believe a test run might also be worthwhile, just trying out qualifying a singular 1k-3k mapset of high quality.

Hydria mentioned (I'd make a second quote but idk how) that people may look for SR inflation in lower keymodes. I don't believe that is possible. There are a few "playable" 1k maps in the 6*+ range. None of them have higher scores than 93% to the best of my knowledge. The majority of high difficulty 1k maps sit in the 4-5* range. The opposite of your sentiment is actually true, 1k experiences severe star rating DEflation. In a similar vein, your comment about raking a guitar hero controller is unreasonable for the same reason as Shad0wStar's comment about massage guns. This technique would simply not be applicable in any decently crafted high-level map. As far as how quality can be judged, there is a small but dedicated community of 1k mappers of which I am not really part (my only 1k map falls into the restricted repetitive pattern that renders so many 1k maps unrankable. i.e. skill issue on my end as far as mapping goes) and I'd imagine that they might have a better response as far as that goes. I can ask some of them if they'd be willing to chime in here.

Decku, you do raise good points about the restrictiveness of the keymodes. However, I am somewhat confused about your argument dealing with 2k. How can 2k be simultaneously very restrictive and very similar to taiko, a mode with thousands of very different ranked maps? Additionally, 2k and taiko do have some different gameplay elements from each other, although I agree that they are very similar in general. As far as 1k goes, song choice matters much more in this gamemode than in any other, as having rhythms that can be represented in interesting ways is imperative. For example, 1karuga or Pictured as Perfect. The bar for song choice is much higher in this gamemode than in others. Emphasis and representation can occur in a ***somewhat*** similar way to taiko in that they happen rhythmically. In my opinion, the good and interesting maps should still be rankable, even if that's a smaller portion of the total mappool than in other gamemodes.

Tailsdk, as far as the odd numbered 10k+ keymodes go, these do exist, but can only be created in the notepad, not the editor. However, the same goes for CS0 and CS10 in standard, both of which are rankable. I don't believe there's established communities for many of these, but I think they could all function as +1 versions of the keymodes before them. But we probably wouldn't really end up seeing those. I think EZ2DJ might have an odd keymode higher than 10k but I don't remember.

As people seem rather resitant to low keymodes being rankable, I'd also totally be fine with them being loved more often, as there are plenty of maps popular within these communities that are highly worthy of loved but get overlooked due to low popularity. If we can come to a compromise in loved with seeing these keymodes more often (more than once ever) I don't believe ranked would really be necessary. My post is more from the perspective of a low keymode player, so that's why I've focused on these in my reply, as I'l leave the 10k+ stuff to that community.

Just gonna add a small note about odd numbers 10+ keys i.e. 11, 13, 15, 17.

They do technically exist thru notepad editing, but !stable doesn't allow you to set keybinds for these. If 10+K were to become rankable, it should only be even numbered ones IMO on the account that odd numbers arent even supported by the game.

Hugged wrote:

Just gonna add a small note about odd numbers 10+ keys i.e. 11, 13, 15, 17.

They do technically exist thru notepad editing, but !stable doesn't allow you to set keybinds for these. If 10+K were to become rankable, it should only be even numbered ones IMO on the account that odd numbers arent even supported by the game.

If the even modes become rankable, I 100% think odd keymodes should be given support in lazer and then also become rankable. (once lazer has been completely integrated with the ecosystem, of course)

Hello, really big fan of 10K+ here!!!! Gonna write down some thoughts in my mind about this, sorry if they're a bit messy! Have to keep writing or else I pause and make excuses to procrastinate further LOL
Also sorry that for some video examples, you have to download them since I thought when I share discord link, it will just open another tab and show the video there like how some audio links do it!








Just for fun, I will send a link to a spreadsheet of 10K+ maps I remember and think are legitimate below when I finish it! Hopefully, it will help you get an idea of what 10K+ mapping looks like and how many maps are made for these keymodes so far!

For now, you may have this spreadsheet I made for a private server!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M3i9PC_vlv6cbz-TtJ6m3rSi4Xu2I3ZUZmkbouyJHD0/edit?usp=sharing

You can also look through our resources spreadsheet from our 10+ Keys Rhythm Games server
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1alQQ7evfoZMF6Z2l4Il6oeTt1uygWWYFSxD2JyGBUh0/edit?usp=sharing

Hey, I'm a 1k player that's been involved in the small, but relatively active community since 2020. The keymode honestly has a lot to offer in the charting department if you look in the right places and put in the effort to create something great.

Comparisons about charting 1k often stem from taiko due to their shared feature of a single lane. However, 1k maintains its uniqueness due to the existance of long notes / held notes. (the long yellow notes are more a spamming type deal rather than held). This gives opportunity for new ways to represent songs on a single lane.

One of the greatest criticisms towards 1k is that charts will essentially be consistent 1/4 streams as this in many cases theoretically represents the music best. Unfortunately, this is how many view 1k charting, resulting in the creation of really poor and uninspired charts or dismissal of it altogether. If we take a look at taiko, this isn't the case. Why? Many rules prevent this in the ranking criteria, but even the majority of unranked maps don't fall into this trap. Charting consistent 1/4 - but also consistent 1/2 for less dense songs - in many cases takes away from the song by eliminating the emphasis on what's really happening. All the smaller details are thrown out the window as well as generally creates something bland. by taking inspiration from taiko, the developments of many years of single lane rhythm game charting can be applied to 1k to create high quality, fun charts that can be moulded into playability, sets & spreads, and rankability.

An argument I foresee regarding this point is that taiko has the ability to create more variety as it has two main don and katsu notes. In response, I say that 1k similarly has two primary note types - the single note and the long note (idk terminology sorry). As I said earlier, this is what makes 1k unique as a single lane rhythm game and therefore offers different opportinuties to express songs. I believe this should be welcomed rather than feared by taking the time to understand it and learn the potential it holds.

I recognise that there are certainly 1k mania maps which are characterised by their use of consistent 1/4 streams. I would like to push forward the idea though that when used correctly, it is absolutely the best way to chart a song and in combination is what makes it an enjoyable chart. This also occurs in taiko, most typically on charts of metal songs. It's all about where the type of charting is appropriate. In a world where 1k is rankable, BN's can ensure appropriate charting techniques are being applied to keep the ranked section of high quality.

I see people's comments here regarding the potential for what could be considered as cheating in 1k mania. This is a completely valid concern, however, I wish to explain why this should not be a reason to be against 1k rankability. Cheating exists wildly across the board within osu! but we don't see those modes losing their titles of rankability and respect.

The idea of multibinding/multiple keyboards is regarded as cheating in the 1k community and would not be tollerated. This exact style of cheating can also be performed in taiko, typically used to hit high speed mono streams in converts. Despite this, converts and taiko as a whole is still rankable, instead the perpetrators get punished for their acts.

Using other devices suggested such as a massage gun is a hilarious prospect, however, I believe you will find this to be very ineffective for setting good 1k scores. If the maps receiving ranked status were 800bpm+ death streams.. I could see the use behind a massage gun, but for the styles of higher star rating mapping we already see used in 1k.. not so much!

Further, utilising a guitar hero controller for raking would also be considered cheating in my opinion. (I did have to look up what this was and have gained my understanding from this video if it's incorrect please tell me). You're making one physical input for the price of two which i feel goes against the spirit of 1k mania and i have a feeling something like this wouldn't be taken well in osu! as a whole.

I believe the two suggestions about the massage gun and raking also stem from the earlier mentioned preconception that all higher star rating 1k charts are simply just high bpm 1/4 streams with 0 variety. However I have already discussed why this isn't the case and because of this, I'm not actually concerned with people breaking the game using these methods - they're just not very viable. I do consider them cheating though and if they we're used to set scores on ranked leaderboards or in tournament settings I would expect them to be removed or nullified.

I would actually encourage the non 1k mania players involved with this discussion so far to take a bit of time exploring what the keymode has to offer. I feel it could offer greater insight to the perspective of active players and aid in breaking down some of the misconceptions I see from so many people with little experience. I highly suggest playing through some of the charts hand crafted for the JOKE and JOKE 2: Spacebar Jam. These tournaments feature a wide range of difficulty and skill to sink your teeth into and explore what 1k really has to offer. (JOKE 2 is also fully FA and licensed if that sweetens the deal!). Further, new charters have sprung up as a result of these tourneys with one of the most notorious being sparxe best known for his finger series, pushing the bounds of what's possible in 1k charting!

I believe granting 1k the ability to become rankable could help new players take notice of the mode and help it grow further and breathe some new life into it. I recognise that this would take a lot of work to make happen, but I appretiate that the discussion is taking place and being considered properly. I hope you can find some joy in 1k mania!

for the best chances of sub 4k, particularly 1k, to be ranked. It would be good to prepare a draft for how these keymodes would mesh with the current ranking criteria.

Convincing wont do much if the brunt of the documentation and interpretation of rankability would fall under those who are not too familiar with these keymodes.

Primarily focus on what constitutes as an Easy, Normal, or Hard. This is quite important as the current guidelines in place work for 10k+ but do not seem to work for the lower keymodes (feel free to correct me on this regard).

Provide a baseline on how the lower keymodes work with the ranking process and im confident the acceptance of these keymodes would be gradually accepted.

So after further discussion regarding upper key modes here is what the consensus came to.

The idea of upper key modes above 10K were already a thing regarding their audience and osu! community itself. It could be done but it will have to go through the process that 10K did. We would have to first:


Regarding 1-3K key modes this would be a hard one to consider, there has been many proposals that back in the day have been shut down due to the limitations that these key modes entail. If a preliminary draft of some guidelines and common mapping schemes for lower keymodes is made, we can review it and see if there's reasonable merit in allowing for its rankability.

Regarding the status of upper keymodes beyond 10K, they will be tested in due time. At the moment, the mania NAT will prioritize the overhaul of the osu!mania Ranking Criteria first before considering additional keymodes and the additional guidelines that would need to be added as a result of such a change. Regardless, these keymodes will be tested further down the line after that is mostly dealt with and squared away. The way we plan to do this is very similar to how 10K was tested and made rankable - first by checking existing loved maps to make sure scoreboards and playing-wise it is doable (and that there is sizeable interest), then by experimenting by ranking a single map of each keymode going for rankability to ensure PP and SR calculations don't break. Ideally, we'll start with 12K and work our way up to 18K if we see success with each successive keymode. We'll also run this by Peppy first to make sure we have his blessing, but at any point, this can be shut down if it's deemed to not be working.

Antalf wrote:

Regarding 1-3K key modes this would be a hard one to consider, there has been many proposals that back in the day have been shut down due to the limitations that these key modes entail. If a preliminary draft of some guidelines and common mapping schemes for lower keymodes is made, we can review it and see if there's reasonable merit in allowing for its rankability.

The 1K community is currently working on this (draft for possible ranking criteria and mapping guidelines) and will post an update here once things look good enough to publish.

On the other hand, I can see 12K, 14K, 16K, and 18K being possible for ranked. It definitely needs stricter rules and guidelines to accomodate these (e.g no beatmap section forces players to physically move hand to other side to play the map).

14K and 16K (or rather, 14K+2) is simply a direct copy of BMS DP charting, with the difference of scratch key presence/absence. Maybe 10K+2 is the same but with just added 2 scratches from 10K. I'm not sure for the 'true' symmetrical 12K> maps.

Standardisating these maps will be difficult, as it requires physical limitation too (such as scratches can never be inside the lanes, but outside the lanes).

I won't say the EZ2 layout is not okay, but at this rate these keycounts will eventually emulate the existing chart styles of available commercial rhythm games with dedicated DP mode...

A disclaimer of what mapping style it is and how the key layout is intended to be on every single map might be needed, but it's too arduous to 'implement' PP for the keys with basically limitless mapping potential and key layout.

I want to see how 12K> maps works in favor of rankability with diverse amount of patterns.

[ Decku ] wrote:

abraker wrote:

I don't care much for keymods < 4k, but I am very confused as to why the number digits on both hands should be a significant barrier to allowing > 10k being ranked. For a game that is about overcoming challenges by acquiring skills to rank up it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to put a hard block on keymodes > 10k just because of this. If you have no imagination how such maps can be played then you have not tried hard enough become better at such keymodes. It is possible albeit also very difficult even for low stars, but that is the fun in it. Also there is an 18k loved map here (kinda 18k?). All in all, I firmly believe anyone who is protesting against rankability of > 10k because of that is going against the spirit of this game.

I do believe being open minded about the situation does give perspective that there ARE people who play more than 10 keys. But this community is also way too small to justify adding them. Even if they were allowed, as stated there would have to be a completely different workaround to the plugin and it would have to get implemented into lazer.

I myself do believe that it's a tough concept to add in considering the plugin would need to be added, but I also think that it might be too much effort to add as the community is far too small for there to know any such difference. If you could please provide some more in depth analysis?

Thank you! <3

I fail to see how size of community is relevant. It would allow the option to rank, and the option to do so is all that is needed. I don't expect to see a bunch of new 10k+ maps ranked, yet it would be cool to see at least one. What's the detriment in that?

I am not sure what you mean by "there would have to be a completely different workaround to the plugin and it would have to get implemented into lazer". The mention of "plugin" confuses me. Do you mean "keymode"? Also what kind of in depth analysis you are looking for?

Ryu Sei wrote:

On the other hand, I can see 12K, 14K, 16K, and 18K being possible for ranked. It definitely needs stricter rules and guidelines to accomodate these (e.g no beatmap section forces players to physically move hand to other side to play the map).

14K and 16K (or rather, 14K+2) is simply a direct copy of BMS DP charting, with the difference of scratch key presence/absence. Maybe 10K+2 is the same but with just added 2 scratches from 10K. I'm not sure for the 'true' symmetrical 12K> maps.

Standardisating these maps will be difficult, as it requires physical limitation too (such as scratches can never be inside the lanes, but outside the lanes).

I won't say the EZ2 layout is not okay, but at this rate these keycounts will eventually emulate the existing chart styles of available commercial rhythm games with dedicated DP mode...

A disclaimer of what mapping style it is and how the key layout is intended to be on every single map might be needed, but it's too arduous to 'implement' PP for the keys with basically limitless mapping potential and key layout.

I want to see how 12K> maps works in favor of rankability with diverse amount of patterns.

Yes, 10K+2 (10K2S) has the same scratch mechanic as the other EZ2, Beatmania, or BMS DP keymodes.

Anyone with a slight amount of knowledge on scratches know that scratches are always outside the main keyset, they are never inside.

Out of 12K, 14K, 16K, and 18K. I think 18K is the only keymode that doesn't involve scratches in it's current popular states, (4+10+4K) and (9+9K). 4+10+4K is simply 10K with the addition of 8K into a single keymode, and 9+9 is essentially PMS DP. 12K is just 10K2S, 16K is EZ2 14K2S. Although 14K is slightly different, since it can be EZ2 14K2S just without scratches and it would play perfectly fine.

The EZ2 layout is perfectly emulatable and chartable. As seen in my prior post in this forum, as well as a 16K (EZ2 14K2S) mapset, ETERNAL DRAIN, that I mapped and released today (higher difficulties coming soon). This chart specifically uses the 5+4+5K2S playstyle that is played in the EZ2 arcade games.

We intend and are working on a keymode style naming structure. For example, 18K would be described as either [18K (4+10+4K)] or [18K (9+9K)]. Additionally, we are also experimenting with not using the '+' symbols and using [18K (4K10K4K)] and [18K (9K9K)]. This may mostly be up to the NAT's and BN's to decide what is fit in the finalized RC but for now those are our two options for keymode style naming—assuming keys higher than 10K will then be allowed to be ranked.

To be frank, I don't think pp is a major concern for any of us wanting ranked > 10K. These keymodes are mostly based on structure and patterns, dumping a bunch of density into these keymodes isn't the greatest idea.

For the status of keymodes for 1-3K, after having reviewed the 1K guidelines document sent to us by the 1K community, we still don't think it's feasible to be implemented anytime in the future, and will not be moving forward with this.

Essentially, we're putting this on the backburner for now while we prioritize more pressing changes first, but we'll do our best to revisit it when the time comes.

What were some of the reasons that staff didn't think it would be feasible to implement 1-3K?

I think that currently, there isn't enough recognition as to what's actually possible with 1k mapping in mania. The scene has evolved in the past years and we're only at the start.

I won't lie that it's still difficult to create maps that match the quality of other keysets, but some maps are already at that level and in my honest opinion it comes only from the straight fact that we as 1k mappers are still figuring out the possibilities.

It may take a lot of time and be low priority to bring this mode to the front row, but we're confident that we'll be able to showcase you the goodness of what's been done so far, so that hopefully you can see this mode as we see it

I'm mostly just disappointed in the lack of communication. There should have been some sort of feedback or reasoning shared with us before going on the post and declaring it entirely unfeasible. We had additionally announced prior that there would be a 1k example set and that it was in the works. With no feedback on the guidelines, and without the set even being done, a decision was somehow made?

[LS]Ham wrote:

What were some of the reasons that staff didn't think it would be feasible to implement 1-3K?

Some of the reasons would be that the mode is quite restrictive at the moment and it doesn't seem to pan out too well in the future. It also has to be said that after reviewing the draft, there is simply just not enough pattern variety/expression (emphasis on expression) and subjectivity to consider it rankable at the moment.

Adri wrote:

I think that currently, there isn't enough recognition as to what's actually possible with 1k mapping in mania. The scene has evolved in the past years and we're only at the start.

I won't lie that it's still difficult to create maps that match the quality of other keysets, but some maps are already at that level and in my honest opinion it comes only from the straight fact that we as 1k mappers are still figuring out the possibilities.

It may take a lot of time and be low priority to bring this mode to the front row, but we're confident that we'll be able to showcase you the goodness of what's been done so far, so that hopefully you can see this mode as we see it

I believe so as well! It would be decent to see this down the line in some future but as for now, it's not something that we can implement. This can still be revisited in the future once enough recognition is given and all the possibilities are laid out.

Regarding 1K
Given how this thread was invalidated before we could even present the criteria and examples we mentioned, it has become quite apparent that this proposal is no longer entertained as "feasible". However, I don't want the last 10 days of work to go entirely to waste so I would just like to pull through on my initial promise I made earlier in this thread and show you all what we came up with in terms of ranking criteria, example mapset (fully based around said criteria), featuring Easy, Normal, Hard, Insane and Expert difficulties of a featured artist song as well as a video showcasing these side by side, played by an actual player using nothing but his own fingers on a spacebar. We hope you keep 1 key in mind for the future and if you would like to become a part of the community, you can always join our official tournament's server (https://discord.gg/R5gwQXss). We would be happy to help with any questions you have and guide you to an enjoyable time with the keymode!

Our 1K Ranking Criteria:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1r8XY4gKmPwp5VpoOUJCipNRKRk6ck2dCv59815ng6GY/edit?usp=sharing

1K Test Mapset (ENHIE):
beatmapsets/1975850#mania/4100950
(Featured) Artist: ZxNX
Title: Schadenfreude
BPM: 198
Length: 2:31
NOTE: this is not necessarily the final version of the map, as further time would have been allocated to modding if we weren't under a certain time constraint.

Video Showcase:

While I'm against the 1K ranking, this is completely unfair for 1K community to have the proposal (or the proposal they're included in) to be quickly abolished before they even showcased the maps. I am truly disappointed with the lack of communication with the community that is going to form.

Please reopen the thread first. This is clearly the form of arrogancy of the staffs.

I wish the staffs would reconsider their decision and revert this thread back to the proposal state, instead of denying all together. The 1K community deserves its attention to grow and become a solid keymode community if we give them a chance.

@Sparxe: I will look at the proposal, and see it from the point of view of the player if it's feasible or not.
EDIT: Here are my opinions. Do note that I have played the similar 1-key rhythm game, so it might be biased.

Ryu Sei wrote:

While I'm against the 1K ranking, this is completely unfair for 1K community to have the proposal (or the proposal they're included in) to be quickly abolished before they even showcased the maps. I am truly disappointed with the lack of communication with the community that is going to form.

Please reopen the thread first. This is clearly the form of arrogancy of the staffs.

I wish the staffs would reconsider their decision and revert this thread back to the proposal state, instead of denying all together. The 1K community deserves its attention to grow and become a solid keymode community if we give them a chance.

@Sparxe: I will look at the proposal, and see it from the point of view of the player if it's feasible or not.
EDIT: Here are my opinions. Do note that I have played the similar 1-key rhythm game, so it might be biased.

Easy

This one looks pretty solid, and I can see this as feasible for beginners.

Normal

There is a slight inconsistency between rules and guidelines. The rules enforces, while the guideline encourages/discourages. This can be seen on the slider velocity portion:

Slider velocity changes that alter the scrolling speed of the beatmap are strongly discouraged. Slider velocity changes to unify the scroll speed in variable BPM beatmaps are exempt.

Manipulating slider velocity is discouraged. Slider velocity should only be changed for sections of music with different intensities and should not be drastically variable throughout the beatmap.

I suggest to follow osu!mania base rules for the slider velocity, which completely bans the gimmick when it's the easiest difficulty, otherwise discourage it.

Hard

This should be fine, though I doubt at the 1/3 section.

Insane

The ranking criteria always written based on 180 BPM, so this line should be reworded:

1/6 patterns should not be longer than four notes on moderate to low BPM (~140). Anything longer is very situational and normally too complex.

Converting it to miliseconds results in the distance of each notes to be ~71 ms. That should be similar to 1/4 at 180 BPM, or slightly slower than 1/5 at 180 BPM. You should keep the base BPM and the regular snap in mind.

I just want to clarify that this is not entirely buried for now, there are things like the RC Overhaul that do take a higher priority and other things that we need to focus on to properly lead the way for alternate key modes in the future. This is not buried completely and when the time comes, this will be revisited with all the effort the 1K community put into this.

If anything, the fact that this is on hold gives those communities time to grow, love some sets before we come back to discuss this again.

Thanks for the clarification. The forum post marked this thread as invalid, and it's my error to misunderstood the context. Hopefully all keymodes beyond our current rankable scope can be deemed worthy for rank.

Looking forward on the progress.