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[invalid] Allow mania BNs to nominate sets that they have hitsounded

posted
Total Posts
41
Hydria
1,247 posts
Joined April 2011
Topic Starter
Hydria
Right now in mania, hitsounding a map is very much optional, however, quite a few BNs still prefer to have fully hitsounded difficulties over just a simple hitnormal.
On top of this, whilst this rule is in place, due to the nature of hitsound diffs being used in mania during the modding process, it's very easy for a BN already to essentially do the hitsounding for a set via a mod to the hitsound diff as a way of circumventing the rule in place.
Given all of this, I feel like if a BN wants full hitsounds for a set, and is willing to add them themselves, they should be allowed to without comprising their ability to nominate the set, and without having to do all this other sneaky work in the first place, given that full hitsounding is optional.
Therefore, I propose the following addendum to the Nomination section of wiki/en/People/The_Team/Beatmap_Nominators/Rules

Do not nominate beatmaps that you contributed to. This includes any major contribution such as mapping, hitsounding, storyboarding, skinning, or slider velocity editing.
For osu!mania Beatmap Nominators, the hitsounding restriction is non-applicable for basic hitsounding (one hitnormal, hitwhistle, hitfinish & hitclap only).
Last edited by Hydria , edited 3 times in total.
Protastic101
1,170 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
I would just make a small addendum that the hitsounding circumvention only applies to basic 4 sample hitsounded maps (e.g. common and basic kick/snare/finish/hihat sets that only utilize one sample set and primarily follow non-subjective percussive lines in maps).

Also, if this gets passed, I'd like to see the following metadata rule regarding contributor names in tags get adjusted as well:

Guest difficulty creators, storyboarders, skinners and hitsounders must be added to the tags of a beatmap. Guest difficulty creators must be set as difficulty owners for their respective difficulties in addition to being added to tags. This is to give credit where credit is due and help others identify the main contributors of any given beatmap...
  1. For osu!mania, if only basic (i.e. 4 samples, single sampleset) hitsounds are contributed, then the hitsounder's name does not need to be added to the tags.
Last edited by Protastic101 , edited 1 time in total.
Antalf
Beatmap Nominator
262 posts
Joined August 2016
Antalf
As one of those BNs I agree with this, at most a hitsounding job the contains the minimal such as F,C and W Plus a hitnormal should be allowed, in the case of a more detailed hitsounding job like keysounds this wouldn’t apply.

I’d like to see this idea pushed forward, sometimes I don’t mind doing the hitsounds for a map but this does not allow me to further push the map since it hinders my ability to nominate it, knowing that another BN has to check the map, this is completely viable since it won’t be one sided.

If it were given to some other person (basic hitsounding job) it will have little to no variations due to its simplicity and amount of samples. The hitsounds itself wouldn’t differ between people very much.
Last edited by Antalf , edited 1 time in total.
Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei
As a mapper, I agree with this idea.

Besides, hitsounding is optional to the best; some players prefer playing without them at all. Why restrict mania BNs from nominating a map which they contribute to hitsound from, if there are some players who prefer to play it without hitsound at all?
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
224 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
Summary is that I agree with the above, specially Protastic's remark of only allowing basic additions (WCF) to be done. Also want to mention how this is something that is not only applicable to Mania. Believe that it isn't necessarily helpful for us and that other modes should also probably discuss if it should be a ruleset-wide change.

Just want to offer a bit more insight on why I support this idea:

- It is not rare for Nominators to see hitsounding attempts that require a complete overhaul. Some will go to the extent of helping the mapper by offering their interpretation of it. Mentioned it in the mapping hub, but just like the Ship of Theseus, at what point do the hitsounds belong to the nominator modding it after changing most of it little by little?

- I'd argue that SVs have more impact on gameplay, yet as far as Nominators are concerned, they can suggest a complete SV rework to a map. This one is seen rarely, but it is done.
-mint-
652 posts
Joined September 2016
-mint-
no problem with this but i think there should be a line right after briefly defining what basic hitsounding means (WCF stuff as said earlier)

though im not a fan of a potential unintended consequence which is that i can see situations where some BNs can end up being too stubborn and insisting that all their nominated maps must have basic hitsounds, and haltering the ranking process for many maps if theyre not careful with managing that. plus i do feel like it violates some kind of artistic boundary, like should a mapper not wish to have hitsounds added, that could be a reason for such a BN to reject the map, or something like that. thatd make the waters harder to navigate for those mappers simply for making the decision that they dont want other people hitsounding their maps for whatever reason
Antalf
Beatmap Nominator
262 posts
Joined August 2016
Antalf

-mint- wrote:

though im not a fan of a potential unintended consequence which is that i can see situations where some BNs can end up being too stubborn and insisting that all their nominated maps must have basic hitsounds, and haltering the ranking process for many maps if theyre not careful with managing that. plus i do feel like it violates some kind of artistic boundary, like should a mapper not wish to have hitsounds added, that could be a reason for such a BN to reject the map, or something like that. thatd make the waters harder to navigate for those mappers simply for making the decision that they dont want other people hitsounding their maps for whatever reason
I see your concern but I believe this wouldn’t be a problem, I for example see a map I enjoy, if I approach the mapper and ask them if I could do their hitsounds prior to a nomination, shouldn’t affect the fact that the map is going to get ranked either ways, this is just some freedom for people like me that really enjoy hitsounds and try to rank as many maps with them as possible (even if it’s written as a must and a rule in my profile, I’ve made exceptions).

The thing about if a BN requires you to have hitsounds before nominating is not relevant to this thread. It’s something that the BN decided and has to be brought up with them. This isn’t restrictive, in any case this gives more freedom to both mappers and BNs.

TL;DR if a BN feels like a map would benefit from a basic WFC hitsounding job and at the same time wants to nominate it, this would be ideal, I don’t see a way this can be abused since this is literally just letting the BNs if they want out of their own volition hitsound a map.
guden
160 posts
Joined January 2018
guden
i'll spoiler this since it's just arguing about potential abuse, and isn't necessarily that important of a discussion. if you want a tldr for the important stuff, read below the spoiler

re: antalf

Antalf wrote:

TL;DR if a BN feels like a map would benefit from a basic WFC hitsounding job and at the same time wants to nominate it, this would be ideal, I don’t see a way this can be abused since this is literally just letting the BNs if they want out of their own volition hitsound a map.
the problem with it wouldn't really bns doing it out of their own volition though, it's strictly defining where the line in the sand is. i personally feel like this needs to be established clearly to avoid any more power imbalance that bns have over mappers. a mapper shouldn't need hitsounds to get a map ranked, as already established in the rc. but also, of course hypothetically, the mapper shouldn't have to accept hitsounds from a bn in order to get a nomination in any circumstance. and for many new mappers, obtaining any sort of bn for their map is difficult. the whole point of removing the requirement was to give more accessibility and freedom to mappers by removing a "blockade" that is debatably (and statistically) unnecessary. having the potential (this can obviously manifest in much MUCH less superficial ways) for bns to essentially force their hitsounds onto a map from a less experienced mapper creates a conflict of interest. at the end of the day, mappers should always have the choice on whether they want to add hitsounds to their mapset or not. bns who don't want to nominate those types of maps shouldn't have any further active leverage over those mappers.

i already feel this is a problem for bns accepting maps that require them to completely hand-hold the mapper to overhaul the map and whatnot. again, it's similar to what randomelol mentioned: ship of theseus. at what point does the map stop becoming the mapper's? and at what point are we infringing on artistic integrity rather than suggesting general changes where the mapper still has creative liberty over the final product? obviously this is a much more nuanced topic, but i think it's somewhat relevant in the case of artistic integrity like mint mentioned. though, i don't necessarily hold bns to this high of a standard in that regard considering our current amount of compensation for work done.

aside from hypotheticals, for the proposal itself i feel as if it's fine mostly. just what protastic and mint mentioned, defining what specifically a basic hitsound is within the clause to avoid any potential confusion. wcf should be enough, and it should be worded similarly if not the same as the "osu!mania beatmaps do not require hitsound additions" clause in the rc to keep it consistent.
Hydria
1,247 posts
Joined April 2011
Topic Starter
Hydria
updated proposal for now to explain and limit hitsounding to absolute basic sampleset
[Ping]
499 posts
Joined April 2015
[Ping]

RandomeLoL wrote:

Summary is that I agree with the above, specially Protastic's remark of only allowing basic additions (WCF) to be done. Also want to mention how this is something that is not only applicable to Mania. Believe that it isn't necessarily helpful for us and that other modes should also probably discuss if it should be a ruleset-wide change.
I don't map catch but as novice player in that mode I disagree regarding allowing BNs to do hs for other modes. This is because hs plays a very good role in catch as sound cues (it is being relied much more since you don't hit the notes so you need appropriate audio feedback). It very much would reflect mappers' intention on how player would play the map.

Do ask around mappers for that mode though since I'm just a novice player there after all.


Regarding mania, I agree that BN should be able to somewhat involve with hs, but I think it is still better to have it be a guidance thing more than a full diff HS. I might be a bit traditionally minded in that sense though. (Basically neutral-slight negative on this change)

Also might be me but not having hs being credited if it's WCF like protastic said is going to decrease morale for hitsounders of maps. Especially, if that is all the map needs (consider simple EDM and jpop, they don't really need much flair outside WCF). Of course you can circumvent this by having more samples. However it might cause unnecessary effects that can be messy if someone decided to play with hs.
Last edited by [Ping] , edited 2 times in total.
FAMoss
osu! Alumni
1,161 posts
Joined January 2016
FAMoss

Hydria wrote:

For osu!mania Beatmap Nominators, the hitsounding restriction is non-applicable for basic hitsounding (one hitnormal, hitwhistle, hitfinish & hitclap only).
totally supports this changes which mania I as a BN, who are generally supplying hitsounds to ongoing nominated maps. since hitsounds in mania are optional, utilizing simply hitnormal, missing one of a particle from a set is causing it to lose spirit, and where wise maps must be pushed to be decent material.

Anyway, in regards to Guden's remarks about potential misuse,

guden wrote:

a mapper shouldn't need hitsounds to get a map ranked, as already established in the rc. but also, of course hypothetically, the mapper shouldn't have to accept hitsounds from a bn in order to get a nomination in any circumstance
making fewer mappers conduct their job of creating maps and assigning responsibility only to the BN (which is not BN duties).
Niva
Global Moderator
3,190 posts
Joined November 2009
Niva
yo just wanna drop in for transparency that i've added the [Proposal/osu!mania] tag to the title of the thread to make it slightly less ambiguous

(previous title sounds a bit as if the suggestion is so that mania bns can nominate *any* sets that they have hitsounded, regardless of the game mode)

---

best of luck with the discussion btw guys 🐇
Last edited by Niva , edited 8 times in total.
Protastic101
1,170 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
Asked around in the BN server to see if this would be something applicable to other modes and was mainly met with a resounding "No." Discussion begins here for those with access to the BN server.

Also, to circle back to my post where I mentioned the metadata rule being affected by this (community/forums/topics/1704316?n=2), if that's not changed, then we will have instances where a BN can nominate a map that has their name in the tags signifying they had a major contribution in the map. Would like to get some opinions on this unintended side effect if this were to go through.

Lastly, we should clearly define what "Basic Hitsounds" are. I like what Hydria has written, but I would just make one small change to it for clarity:
For osu!mania Beatmap Nominators, the hitsounding restriction is non-applicable for basic hitsounding (defined as one sampleset containing a hitnormal, hitwhistle, hitfinish & hitclap only, for a maximum of 4 applicable samples).
Maxus
Nomination Assessment Team
1,287 posts
Joined May 2014
Maxus
Personally i felt rather than separating between basic hitsound and full hitsound, might as well just allow both of them for BN to nominate, even if they participate.

It seems like counterproductive for me if a BN happened to helped adding few external hitsound sample, and suddenly they are not allowed to nominate anymore. That rule separation between basic and full hitsound will be the ground of controversy in the future imo. So why not just allow both of them where it is much simpler to automate? I think we should just reduce the amount of subjectivity in case like this.

From what i saw, this rule will still make it mandatory for the HS'er to be put in the tags anyway, so the original HS'er still maintain the credit, while not overcomplicate the rule at the same time.
Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei

-mint- wrote:

though im not a fan of a potential unintended consequence which is that i can see situations where some BNs can end up being too stubborn and insisting that all their nominated maps must have basic hitsounds, [...]
It doesn't matter.

Nobody even brought a topic where mania players sometimes opt to ignore the supplied hitsounds at all and use their own skin's hitsound, or muting it all. I asked once more, hopefully someone can give me reasonable argument;

Why restricting BNs from nominating sets which hitsounds are credited, or improved by them? Why limiting someone from a feature we already deemed optional before?

  1. Beatmaps must be hitsounded. Hitnormals give feedback to the player, and additions (whistles, claps, and finishes) accent the most important parts of the music.
    1. osu!mania beatmaps do not require hitsound additions. This is to allow for easier approachability to osu!mania mappers of different upbringings. It is still highly recommended to use hitsound additions to improve the feel of your beatmaps.

I want everyone to take a note at this clause "osu!mania beatmaps do not require hitsound additions." We already have this rule before, so why adding something that isn't needed for osu!mania beatmaps restricts BNs from qualifying said beatmap?

I'm totally agree with Maxus's suggestion to expand this proposal to every single hitsounded osu!mania beatmaps. Of course, the maps in which hitsounds are mandatory (i.e keysounded maps) shouldn't be covered and follow our previous policy where BNs shouldn't contribute to it.
riunosk
1,136 posts
Joined January 2015
riunosk
If the BNs are working on an aspect of a map that is optional in itself for rank (in this case, hitsounds), that wouldn't be enough reason to bar them from nominating it.

In a way, it's viewable as redundant work, as it shouldn't speed up nor slow down the ranking process since it's just extra work from them, and not from the mapper(s).
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
224 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
Re; Metadata + Accepting more than basic samples:
Eh, ultimately I do not mind if this new clause engulfs all kinds of hitsounding, even if I'd prefer this to be only for the basic samples for a few reasons. Even don't really mind if this implies having to add the BN on the tags to comply with the Metadata rule. Changing that now is probably out of the scope of the issue being tackled now. Whether it is appropriate to credit them in the tags or not is a different story in my opinion. Personally, I see no harm having the BNs there in tags because they are users like any one of us.

In general, I believe that the RC should only restrict things that are wrong in nature. Lifting these restrictions up... I do not see how they can cause harm beyond what I'll discuss below.

Re; Guden's concern:
I understand the potential issue that has been brought up. But if every time we want to make a change we focus on "bad faith" scenarios, not much progress will be made. I agree with those things potentially happening. And if it does happen, being a potential breach of Modding Ettiquette, there are procedures to break such stalemates.

I do agree with your conclusion, which is that at the end of the day hitsounds aren't a need. We should try not to pseudo-restrict their usage (or lack thereof).

Conclusion:
Anyhow, at the end of the day it should be the mapper the one whom decides whether they want hitsounds in their map or not. Moreover, each BN has their own requirements besides what is written in the RC. In both cases, you can't enforce one to hitsound their map to get it ranked, nor to accept maps that aren't hitsounded if they do not want to.

I believe this proposal is a good middlepoint as it can break these stalemates if the BNs offer to hitsound the maps instead!
Last edited by RandomeLoL , edited 1 time in total.
lewski
1,346 posts
Joined September 2014
lewski

Ryu Sei wrote:

why adding something that isn't needed for osu!mania beatmaps restricts BNs from qualifying said beatmap?

riunosk wrote:

If the BNs are working on an aspect of a map that is optional in itself for rank (in this case, hitsounds), that wouldn't be enough reason to bar them from nominating it.
I don't think this is a good way to look at the topic at all. By this logic, you could argue, for example, that if a mapset already fits the RC as is, a BN should be able to make a guest diff or storyboard without giving up the ability to nominate the set. That's the most extreme example I could come up with, but you could make countless points like it about different aspects of a map. I find the original point of "this is already happening" much more compelling.

-mint- and guden wrote:

BN strictness/abuse concerns
BNs already have the right to impose arbitrary restrictions on the maps they nominate, so it's hard for me to think much would change in this regard, especially since BNs hitsounding maps is apparently a thing that already happens and seems to be working fine (if I understood the OP correctly).

Protastic101 wrote:

BNs nominating maps with their own name in the tags
Honestly, I think this is fully within the spirit of the proposal. If we officially embrace BNs hitsounding maps they're going to nominate, it makes sense to credit them normally as well.
Hydria
1,247 posts
Joined April 2011
Topic Starter
Hydria
Well I think at this point it's come to some sort of solid agreement that this change should go forward, however we need to settle on how much hitsounding a BN can do (and whether they're credited):

Just basic hitsounding:
- Protastic101
- Antalf
- [Ping]
- guden
- -mint-(?)

Full hitsounding:
- Maxus
- Ryu Sei
- RandomeLoL

let the discussions continue
Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei

lewski wrote:

I don't think this is a good way to look at the topic at all. By this logic, you could argue, for example, that if a mapset already fits the RC as is, a BN should be able to make a guest diff or storyboard without giving up the ability to nominate the set. That's the most extreme example I could come up with, but you could make countless points like it about different aspects of a map. I find the original point of "this is already happening" much more compelling.
I don't talk about storyboards and GDs. Remember that we only talk about adding hitsounds to osu!mania beatmap set.

lewski wrote:

Protastic101 wrote:

BNs nominating maps with their own name in the tags
Honestly, I think this is fully within the spirit of the proposal. If we officially embrace BNs hitsounding maps they're going to nominate, it makes sense to credit them normally as well.
On a second thought we should've embraced this from a long time ago. BNs are also players, after all. Having their deserved credits for helping in making hitsounds is very reasonable.
Satoko Hojo
517 posts
Joined October 2019
Satoko Hojo
As a mapper, I agree with the idea, plus it is probably more frustrating depending on the map to do the full hitsounding is basically time thrown away since hitsounding is optional.
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
224 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
Regarding Hydria's conclusion, I think the best way to move forward now is asking for one of the usual forms we do at the very end of proposals when we see that the idea is not all that bewildering (Such as we did with the hitnormal proposal or the spread rules changes).

Currently yeah the proposal seems widely accepted... only in this forum post though. The form can be as simple as two questions:

- Do you agree that BNs should be allowed to nominate sets they have hitsound contribution towards?
- If so, should they only be allowed to nominate sets with basic hitsounding, or anything goes?

Don't take these questions as final wording. This is just to prove that nothing fancy is needed. Plus if we want to do that, we can always ask Eph to do what they do with official forms' proposals and link each response to a user just to make it as fair as possible.

Lmk if this idea sounds better (to move the proposal into a form) and I can help arranging it in the same way I aided with the previous proposals 👍

@Maxus I'd suggest asking the other NATs and see if this is OK as they might have caveats about it.
Hydria
1,247 posts
Joined April 2011
Topic Starter
Hydria
Regarding Hydria's conclusion, I think the best way to move forward now is asking for one of the usual forms we do at the very end of proposals when we see that the idea is not all that bewildering (Such as we did with the hitnormal proposal or the spread rules changes).
Hey the more people we can get respones from the better at the end of the day, I'm down for this. Kinda split on whether we need full user verification for this because botting a proposal like this is lame but also something I wouldn't be surprised happening.
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
224 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
As far as I know implementing it isn't that bad, so for things like this it should be justifiable. Better safe than sorry, plus gives more validity to the final result. It also lets us parse extra data such as who is answering. For data analysis sake (such as what do people with Ranked maps have to say, or what does X demographic have to say) it's also really useful.
Hydria
1,247 posts
Joined April 2011
Topic Starter
Hydria
Sure, sounds good then if eph is up for it
Protastic101
1,170 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
Regarding basic vs. all hitsounds, while I'd prefer to keep it basic only, I don't mind if this change applies for all kinds of hitsounding. I just assumed the basic hitsounding restriction would step on the least amount of toes.

Also, I spoke with Akasha to get his opinion on this a while ago actually, and he's in agreement with the proposal and is like-minded with Maxus and others regarding allowing BNs to nominate maps they hitsounded completely (so no basic hitsounding restriction).

Seems like we can also leave out discussion about adding hitsounder's name to tags if we allow BNs to nominate maps they hitsounded with or without restriction since people don't seem to take issue with that (and take more issue with trying to change it it looks like).
Noch Einen
530 posts
Joined July 2018
Noch Einen
I might be "a bit out of topic", BN does checking maps & giving pattern suggestion is already "map that you've contributed", yet they nominated them anyway.

For the main topic, as a mapper, i'd agree to any (basic / full hs) since its "kinda beneficial" to any mapper (when they asked to hs it, let them / the requester hs it)

As a player, basic hs should be suffice since "full hs / even ks"(or is it included?) are adding bigger workload (unless they asked for it?), which could lead to unnecessary exhaustion (i guess, or did i just exaggerating?

Also there are people who played with 0% effects (idk if this worth to mention), but knowing this, the effort just blown away
Last edited by Noch Einen , edited 2 times in total.
Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei
Keysounding is out of question. There is always a reference difficulty/audio that must be faithfully represented when making a keysounded beatmaps, so rather than 'improving' it, the BNs can only 'fix' it.

Speaking about that, I think I have a doubt and potentially change of heart. There is an issue of 'peer reviewing' on this proposal when it comes to additional features to be added, let's say hitsounds. From what I know and my experience, it requires two BNs to check whether the maps and the additional features (hitsounds, storyboards, video alignment, etc.) are correctly used, appropiate, and fits RC.

If osu!mania BNs are allowed to nominate the sets in which they're hitsounded (fully/major contribution), it doesn't make sense if there is only one BN to check if the hitsounding is right at the first place... right? If you stretch it further, we actually might need three BNs to check the map if it can be nominated:
  1. One BN to do full check sans hitsound
  2. One BN to do full check
  3. One BN to do hitsound check
Also... how to make sure if the nominated beatmap they're hitsounding isn't a form of cronyism? There might be a skeptical view from other mappers if that behavior apparent or not.
Furryswan
Elite Nominator
326 posts
Joined January 2017
Furryswan
Like the page of BN Rules say, BNs should guide mappers to let them notify what they must fix and what they can improve, not providing what has been completely made by BN themselves.

Ryu Sei wrote:

There is always a reference difficulty/audio that must be faithfully represented when making a keysounded beatmaps, so rather than 'improving' it, the BNs can only 'fix' it (...)
Ryu Sei has made a fair point of view there. Beatmap nominaters must 'propose' something so they can fix problematic issues for Ranking Criteria, less important issue for quality, and so on.

In this topic, we have to think about whether completing and providing the hitsound difficulty itself is not a direct contribution.

For instance, not only just Hitsound, providing a short example of patterns from the proposal by giving screenshots and even an osz file that only has a short amount of playtime is a common method of modding and IRC modding.

Even such IRC mods right now has a lot of potential issue since we can't assure if the modder has provided the entire map and camouflaged the evidence or not. At this point, discussing predictable issues from the proposal or whatsoever become pointless since we can't prevent that.

Do not nominate beatmaps that you contributed to. This includes any major contribution such as mapping, hitsounding, storyboarding, skinning, or slider velocity editing.

No matter the HS they provide are basic WFC samples or complex stuffs, it should not be some kind of HS copypasta difficulty that the contributor has already completed applying them, which is where I think that's the line of 'major contribution', while giving only materials to let the mapper do the rest according to the provided proposals would be considered as ... just ... small contribution lol.
Last edited by Furryswan , edited 4 times in total.
Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei
I still can't be conviced that hitsounding a map should exempt BNs from nominating that map due to aforementioned issues. Even if some players "play with their own hitsound settings", if the hitsound is added, some quality check must be done before even qualifying.

Dubstek wrote:

The BN Rule states that BNs who directly contributed the map cannot nominate that map. In this topic, we have to think about whether completing and providing the hitsound difficulty itself is not a direct contribution.

For instance, not only just Hitsound, providing a short example of patterns from the proposal by giving screenshots and even an osz file that only has a short amount of playtime is a common method of modding and IRC modding.
That's right. Such method is common even in normal modding since language sometimes hinders modders to convey, or mappers to perceive the mod. That is in line with fixing, and not counted as major contribution even if such samples given.

Dubstek wrote:

No matter the HS they provide are basic WFC samples or complex stuffs, it should not be some kind of HS copypasta difficulty that the contributor has already completed applying them, which is where I think that's the line of 'major contribution', [...]
Some beatmaps has different hitsounding formula, so that every single difficulty is unique on the feedback rather than putting unused sounds as a sampled hitsound. Do proposing in these kind of beatmaps still count as major contribution?

Dubstek wrote:

[...] while giving only materials to let the mapper do the rest according to the provided proposals would be considered as ... just ... small contribution lol.
Do you mean hitsound audio file?
Furryswan
Elite Nominator
326 posts
Joined January 2017
Furryswan

Ryu Sei wrote:

Some beatmaps has different hitsounding formula, so that every single difficulty is unique on the feedback rather than putting unused sounds as a sampled hitsound. Do proposing in these kind of beatmaps still count as major contribution?
That would depend on whether the contributor(BN) has done more than just giving proposals with HS audio files(not a difficulty) or not.

Ryu Sei wrote:

Do you mean hitsound audio file?
Yep.
Last edited by Furryswan , edited 2 times in total.
Unpredictable
Beatmap Nominator
383 posts
Joined December 2015
Unpredictable
late to the discussion but this proposal is good and I think this should open up a lot more avenues for mappers and BNs included to rank their/other people's maps. i agree with the proposal.
_Stan
Beatmap Nominator
777 posts
Joined June 2012
_Stan
Late to the discussion too but I'm kinda support this proposal. In fact, we can somehow treat it as an adjustment/standard of hitsounds during BN checking (like helping the mapper). But from the pov of contribution when hitsounds BN made are complex, multiple files within, then I think they might paid too much and have exceeded the contribution required by a normal standard. So I think only do simple basic WFC, hitnormal it's enough cuz that's the basic thing for the hitsounds. More hitsound files/contents will lead to more subjective considerations, which that's not just reach to the basic standard.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,946 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
The general idea behind disallowing BNs from nominating maps they directly contribute to is twofold:

  1. Being directly involved in the creation of a mapset can result in 'project blindness', wherein mistakes are missed due to close familiarity with the project causing someone to gloss over them
  2. It creates a potential 'conflict of interest' where a nominator has directly contributed to a set (beyond just modding it), bringing into question how impartial or objective their assessment of a map is
Based on the reasoning offered in this thread so far, I don't see anything that would explain away the impact of either of these points other than "mania is different". To outside observers unfamiliar with mania as a whole, it is going to appear as if mania nominator-mappers are straight up given an advantage over ordinary mappers by virtue of being able to nominate their own sets.

Put simply (and with as little offense as possible), why does this proposal need to exist? Judging from recent CC data, mania is having no difficulty ranking new maps after the recent influx of nominators and rule changes in the past 12 months. What purpose does this proposal serve other than making it easier for mania nominators to make mistakes and have their impartiality questioned when handling sets they're involved in?

Moreover, if there is a need for this kind of exception, why do the other game modes not also qualify for it?
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Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei

Ephemeral wrote:

Moreover, if there is a need for this kind of exception, why do the other game modes not also qualify for it?
osu!mania hitsounds can be as complex as possible due to concurrence of objects hit in one time. So, you can basically make one chord to play kick, instrument, and crash at the same time, enhancing gameplay with these.

One difficulty can contain only specific parts to be hitsounded, based on the focus of the map. For example, easier diff can just map according to instruments or rhythms (mutually exclusive or not) and map it accordingly, where harder diff can layer one each other.

This is, in addition, due to the rules where osu!mania can use storyboarded hitsounds to replace what is meant to be active hitsounds, essentially 'auto play' unused hitsound on the background as desired by the mappers. Other modes cannot use this due to the rules.
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yaspo
osu! Alumni
265 posts
Joined September 2014
yaspo
Out of pure curiosity,

Original Post wrote:

quite a few BNs still prefer to have fully hitsounded difficulties over just a simple hitnormal
how many is "quite a few"? can you give a rough estimate?
Protastic101
1,170 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101

yaspo wrote:

Out of pure curiosity,

Original Post wrote:

quite a few BNs still prefer to have fully hitsounded difficulties over just a simple hitnormal
how many is "quite a few"? can you give a rough estimate?
There are 6 mania BNs (FAMoss, Antalf, Amiichii, _Rokii, deta5859, [Crz]Alleyne) who have it explicitly written in their rules that they require maps to be hitsounded, or at least strongly encourage it. There's likely more who don't have it written in their rules but prefer it.

Re Ephemeral

Ephemeral wrote:

...it is going to appear as if mania nominator-mappers are straight up given an advantage over ordinary mappers by virtue of being able to nominate their own sets.
No one is going to be nominating their own sets. This is just an allowance to let BNs apply (basic WCF only from the looks of it) hitsounds to someone else's set if they request that BN but don't want to apply hitsounds themselves, and still be able to nominate it. While I understand the concern for "project blindness" as you mentioned, if the allowance is only for basic 4 sample hitsounds, in mania at least, there is very little subjectivity in that. Checking those kinds of hitsounds consists of just making sure they are consistent across all difficulties in a spread and appropriate samples are applied where the sounds appear in the map (e.g. a whistle kick being applied at a point where a kick plays in the music).

Ephemeral wrote:

Moreover, if there is a need for this kind of exception, why do the other game modes not also qualify for it?
See community/forums/topics/1704316?n=13. I already asked in the BN server about it. While some standard BNs expressed they'd like something similar, they said they see why people might see it as a slippery slope which is similar to your concern. But the difference here is that hitsounds are optional in mania, so this is just a way of giving BNs the power to incentivize hitsounds so long as the mapper agrees (basically no one's being forced to add hitsounds to their map, and no BN is forced to have to do hitsounds for someone).

At this point, I don't mind if this proposal gets buried or passed, just wanted to clear these things up though.
guden
160 posts
Joined January 2018
guden

Ephemeral wrote:

  1. Being directly involved in the creation of a mapset can result in 'project blindness', wherein mistakes are missed due to close familiarity with the project causing someone to gloss over them
  2. It creates a potential 'conflict of interest' where a nominator has directly contributed to a set (beyond just modding it), bringing into question how impartial or objective their assessment of a map is
as Prot mentioned, a basic sampleset gets pretty close to objective in mania aside from maybe choosing custom samples. if you look at basic mania hitsound mods, it's usually "xxx:xxx:xxx should be w/c/f" with no other reasoning. likewise, this is why I think going beyond WCF would start to cause problems (which I talk about in my former post).

as for the second point, i'm compelled to agree but i really think this is more of a minuet issue (for mania) compared to something like hand-holding mappers, which i also talked about earlier. you can still , directly or indirectly, contribute a massive amount to a map simply from modding enough to the point where you change entire sections with direct ideas. would that not impact our partiality onto our (re)assessments of maps? i really think we've already somewhat thrown out the window the idea that modding (atleast on maps you're checking) is "objective" and instead lands more within the realm between intersubjectivity and subjectivity.

though, i do agree with both of the points being brought up in some capacity, i just don't think it makes sense to only apply this to something more simplistic like basic hitsounding for mania. i suppose if these hitsounds were treated as something "borrowed" from another set where the mapper still had free reign to make adjustments as they see fit, it would atleast lessen the blow. i can also see that it would cause more complications beyond that. so overall, i share the same sentiment with prot about this proposal. i really dont care that much for it since it doesn't affect my bn work, but i think it's important that we are clear about this discussion.
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Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,946 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
None of what has been mentioned negates the fact that a nominator will be pushing the button on content they have directly contributed to a set - content that is 100% their creation. This walks against a decade of precedent where nominators and their equivalents are expected to have some kind of reasonable distance from the things they're pushing so as to remain fair and not directly advantage one creator over another.

We'd be trashing this precedent in a single game mode for the sake of making the lives of nominators slightly easier in a scene with more than acceptable overall mapping throughput, opening ourselves to a host of concerns in the process. It really does not seem worth the exchange.
Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei
I should also mention that modding an existing hitsounds is not the same as giving the mappers a complete hitsound to copy. What can be modded from hitsound if there is nothing to check (i.e neglects hitsound)?

People can argue that mappers can just copy paste the hitsound from existing Ranked beatmap, which might also be made by BN (in this case, the mapper is the BN themselves), but do note that these hitsounds were also checked by two other BNs, just like how ranking process works.

If adding hitsound from nothing is a mod, it's a mistake. It's adding a new element in which adds extra oversight from BNs, so I think leaving the RC/BN rules as-is is better.
Protastic101
1,170 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
A vote was held amomgst the NAT about whether such a proposal should even be allowed for further discussion due to the concerns raised above, and this vote failed, with a little more than half of the voting NATs disagreeing with the idea of BNs being able to nominate something they hitsounded.

This discussion will now be closed as a result, with the status quo being maintianed, i.e. BNs cannot nominate anything they hitsounded, without exception.
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