I thought you were better than that, considering how you super buddied me on tit for tat when you were scum knowing I was town.

You should be able to tell the difference between that situation and this one pretty easily.

CalignoBot wrote:

You should be able to tell the difference between that situation and this one pretty easily.

The only difference that I can see is that I was lynchbait there.

@Sakura, how have you not responded to my ISO on rEdo yet? Is there something I am missing or are incorrect in assuming in my read on him? Clearly you implicitly think I am wrong in my read by continuing to believe that I am wrong in my push, but yet say absolutely nothing about your own thoughts on rEdo and why you think what you do.

Please tell me why you think he is town

Please Quotes, this is so senseless. I don't think either of them would be so stupid that they would make it so obvious - if they were scumpartners, they would act differently, I strongly suppose. It COULD be one of them is scum, but I dont think they're scumpartners.

What about the inactive ones btw?

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it. plus I tend to buddy up to people in my games :­D if we both were scum, we wouldn't just blatantly duo-force people to talk, that would seem way too obvious for air-headed people like you, isn't that right? Sakura seems rather town to me, so I guessed it would be easier to say that she's hunting scum that actually defending myself, since you wouldn't believe me with this attitude anyway.

This is WIFOM and incorrect at the same time. It is WIFOM because doing something because it is "too obvious" becomes an infinite cycle, where if the mafia believe they can appear town by doing it, they will. You are also incorrect because the manner in which you interact is so over the top in the buddying that it becomes a scummy parody of itself.

about giving you a decent reason why I'm not scum - I've tried to make people who looked scummy in my eyes talk. my suspects were kook, recently Jinxy and Irreversible so far, and since I saw Sakura trying to make him talk, I didn't see a reason why I shouldn't tag along - pressure from even more people makes people more likely to talk. I have indeed buddied up to Sakura at that point, but that's the end to it. however, I haven't heard a single word from kook yet, which leaves me really unsatisfied. as for now I could say that Royston is also acting pretty weird, but it's not enough for me to make any accusiations, as right now I wanna push an another wagon anyway, and I believe I'm working in a good way.

I've already noted that your making Irreversible talk was fairly pro-town.

Your votes on kook still irk me. Admittedly I should be biased in that regard since I essentially am kook now, but I feel as though my ISO outlined fairly well why your push on him felt inauthentic. You pushed him when he was not lurky - he was afk, and fairly obviously so.

I haven't really looked too closely at the Jinxy vote but it looks like it was mostly based on him posting something incorrect based on me being incorrect. This comes off as "I don't like what Quotes posted but he scares me, so I will vote for someone that agrees with him." Will re-read the more recent posts because it's clear my look through before already has had some mistakes (as is evidenced by misreading Sakura's TvS thing)

@rEdo, why would you buddy in past games, but only change now that habit? I can imagine you have been called out on this before. Why make this change NOW?

like I said, I haven't heard a word from kook yet, and this is where I ask you the same question - please give me a reason why you aren't scum. that whole accusiation just pings me even harder that you've got potential to be scum. I could also browse through your ISO thoroughly, but you just popped out of nowhere and picked a person which changed his opinions more than everybody else, which places me in a worse spot as a townie just in order to get an easy lynch today.

Me thinking you are scum does not make me scum. I've already called out the most active player (Sakura) on shit and will continue to do so, since everyone else but Caligno seems unwilling to do so. I posted the ISO on you because you stood out the most as the most obvious scum. The Sakura thing came later when I asked myself who would be your most likely partner. My posts have been spur of the moment and honest in my own estimation, although I can see if you have trouble seeing that I am being honest with calling you scum! I also apparently didn't fail whatever test Sakura was doing. I've explained most of my thoughts regarding lynches and on who I believe scum to be and have backed them up with evidence.

Am I missing anything?

@rEdo, what did Irreversible do to earn enough "townie points" for you to take your vote off of him?

Sakura wrote:

It does, newbies arent bastard

Partner speculation early on will really hurt town in the long run, suppose you lynch me, I flip town then you're gonna say "So rEdo's scum for buddying her" suppose he flips town too, then you're at LyLo with zero info to go on and scumhunt, if someone flips scum then yes, their interactions are something to look at.

Otherwise looks like a nice way for scum to setup mislynches for others.

Sakura, I didn't know that I was voting for you. The only way that your argument holds weight is if you are the one that is lynched today. If rEdo is lynched and comes up town, you come off as neutral (it just means rEdo thought you were town, and either you were purposefully playing into his buddying or legitimately had a very strong town read on him or simply didnt notice a lack of pressure on your behalf). I have done very little to accuse you of being scum directly, I am just making the point that your interactions with rEdo have been incredibly weird and worth noting come day 2 if rEdo flips scum. I have no strong opinions on any of the other players in this regard since I have literally just subbed in.

I haven't yet done a strong ISO on you yet; I just glanced over it for rEdo interaction to see if my initial hunch in the game had any bearing. It seems it did, so I shared as much. There is no reason for me to withhold information that could be used to locate a 2nd scum.

For an outline of the admittedly limited reasons I have stated for why Sakura is worth putting pressure on:

1. Wasted the village's time early game in
a. kook lynch
b. speculation regarding whether what he was doing was role phishing
c. Arguing over what he did was really IIoA or not

This shit went on for 10 pages. Either is a function of Sakura having a complex of never being wrong or of wanting to waste the village's time. She's very clearly been the one leading the discussions, and when so much time is wasted on a player who isn't going to respond, you deserve criticism. Own it, you played badly early game. Your more recent interactions with me do not inspire confidence with me

2. The interactions with rEdo are weird.

I outlined them both in the Sakura quick ISO post and the rEdo iso post. rEdo does very similar things to people she DOES push and yet she does nothing about this. This seems consciously inconsistent.

Fairly certain that's all I've said already with regards to Sakura. The fact that she got incredibly pissy and defending of rEdo rather than noting how weak any push I was putting on her (I didn't even vote her) indicates to me that there actually might be something to what I said before about rEdo/Sakura.

Quotes wrote:

Please tell me why you think he is town

The fun fact, is that I've stated quite the opposite.

Sakura wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

You should be able to tell the difference between that situation and this one pretty easily.

The only difference that I can see is that I was lynchbait there.

No.

In that game, I constantly pointed out that you were really obviously town. I have not once stated that same thing about Jinxy, only that he's town compared to everyone else. Now that you've slipped into a more nullish territory, he's the only real townread I have right now.

Uh that's not what I mean, I mean the way rEdo's buddying me feels similar how you kept obvtowning me that game (and you were scum)

...

Please quote specifically what you're responding to next time, please. I'll go re-look now that I know what you're talking about.

and I totally lost myself in that game

Quote, if you write so much, why don't you just give your vote? seems quite unnecessary that you write tons of text with no action behind it. probably all reaction test, but yeah

One thing in particular stood out while I was rereading rEdo.

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

FoS: Quotes

That question reeks. Really badly.

The answer doesn't reek as much, but I'm not liking it much either. It's his first time stating any kind of real read on Sakura, which is a little disturbing since this indicates it's a pretty strong town one. I can easily see this being a scumteam pairing or a buddying tactic.

However, that's the first problem with the 'scum buddying a town' argument. This is literally the only post I can see a hint of it in. I'll get into the second one at the bottom of this post.

Anyway, I've found another nugget in rEdo's ISO that I had skimmed over earlier due to my ever-present laziness when it comes to a lot of and/or giant posts.

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it. plus I tend to buddy up to people in my games :­D if we both were scum, we wouldn't just blatantly duo-force people to talk, that would seem way too obvious for air-headed people like you, isn't that right? Sakura seems rather town to me, so I guessed it would be easier to say that she's hunting scum that actually defending myself, since you wouldn't believe me with this attitude anyway.

It's admitting Quotes is correct, then trying to downplay it and turn it back onto its sender.

And honestly, now that I've went through his ISO again, Irreversible looks a lot more like the target of a buddying tactic by rEdo. Even though the latter has been drilling the former for a decent chunk of the game, it doesn't look sincere. Then he drops the scumread for a reason I can't figure out.

Oh my, all these posts. Welcome Quotes.

FoS: rEdo

The sheeping is noticeable from miles away.

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it.

It's true that rEdo always sticks with someone in every game I've played with him, but this one catches my attention as it seems more serious than in other games, which is more "sheeping for no reasons". Yeah, going with meta is somehow wrong, but it caught my attention.

Royston wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

still don't get why you unvoted so late..

I was afraid Lilac was going to modkill me for being retarded (see rule 1) or something like that.

Irreversible wrote:

Quote, if you write so much, why don't you just give your vote? seems quite unnecessary that you write tons of text with no action behind it. probably all reaction test, but yeah

wat

My 2nd post was a vote for rEdo. I have kept this vote ever since.

nvm to that then

CalignoBot wrote:

One thing in particular stood out while I was rereading rEdo.

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

rEdo wrote:

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

FoS: Quotes

That question reeks. Really badly.

Why is the question scummy? It's essentially the same question as "what are your thoughts on Sakura" with added pressure.

Yes, role and alignment will be revealed on death. This is a newbie game, far out.

If Rule 1 actually did apply, half of the players here would be modkilled. However, I'm sorta nice.

Saki, get here and post you. I will replace you with Sephibro if I have to.

@irreversable, what do you think of rEdo and Sakura? Do you find either of them scummy? If you had to choose which one is MORE scummy out of the two, which would you choose and why?

CalignoBot wrote:

One thing in particular stood out while I was rereading rEdo.

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

rEdo wrote:

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

FoS: Quotes

That question reeks. Really badly.

Quotes wrote:

Why is the question scummy? It's essentially the same question as "what are your thoughts on Sakura" with added pressure.

Your original question has no basis onto it. It's essentially a loaded question.

For a bonus, here is your response to that answer:

Quotes wrote:

Either is blatant buddying or is trying to use Sakura's act of being the one leading the Irreversible push as a reason why HE is townie, both of which are scummy.

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

This is slimy as all hell. Quotes originally asked rEdo why Sakura was scum (despite rEdo never once detailing any sort of suspicion of that kind), then turned around his answer to state that he should have tried to detail why he himself was not scum in the second line of his response post. It's putting enough doubt on his intentions that I can't think he believes in what he says in the first line.

The entire exchange is incredibly manipulative.

Unvote: Whoever I was voting
Vote: Quotes

I may need a sub as my laptop keyboard is essentially shot from spilling baileys all over it, and posting from a phone all the time sucks since I can't easily quote (hue) other posts to prove a point. It also means its harder to put pressure and near impossible to do a strong ISo on anyone.

@caligno why do you have a problem with me placing pressure on a player when we only have, what, 2 days left? I do not see the harm in asking leading or loaded questions if these questions serve a purpose. They set from the outset that I probably had a fairly strong scum read on redo, am an aggressive player, and that simply sheeping along with other players isn't acceptable. They also set in some level of panic regardless of alliance and village panic vs mafia panic are often distinguishable

You seem to assume that my thoughts on the game are "imma tunnel Sakura and redo super hard since I already know the scum" which is stupid. It's just useful

Quotes wrote:

@irreversable, what do you think of rEdo and Sakura? Do you find either of them scummy? If you had to choose which one is MORE scummy out of the two, which would you choose and why?

For what reason are you asking this?

Quotes wrote:

@caligno why do you have a problem with me placing pressure on a player when we only have, what, 2 days left? I do not see the harm in asking leading or loaded questions if these questions serve a purpose. They set from the outset that I probably had a fairly strong scum read on redo, am an aggressive player, and that simply sheeping along with other players isn't acceptable. They also set in some level of panic regardless of alliance and village panic vs mafia panic are often distinguishable

I don't think you understood what I said. It's not the pressure itself, it's the way it was applied.

I don't know what's worse, Quotes asking irre for feedback, or him voting him for not giving feedback.

So I guess all his supposed interaction tells means nothing because there's not 3 scum in the game and a vote means his top scum read is Irre (see why voting is important)

Unvote
Vote: Quotes

@caligno that's either unresponsive or you really aren't explaining your vote on me well. From what I understand, you are voting for me because you a. Found my first question to be loaded (it was) and b. then proceeded to criticize redo when he does not answer it perfectly with assumptions based on his answer.

If this is the case, I answered that. It was to generate pressure in a short period of time. When I came in there were 3 days until deadline and the game is not super active. I decided that being hyper aggressive from the outset, regardless of whether my initial reads were correct or not might be a useful tool to pressure the two users that had received the least pressure all game.

I do not see what other method I can and should have used to create pressure on redo in such a short period of time and have 0 problems with how I played yesterday, outside of not taking as much time as I'd like to more fully ISo Sakura. Maybe I could have kept pressing redo since his answers weren't great, although far from obvscum.

No, you asked rEdo why Sakura is more likely to be scum then him, then later basically said that he should have explained why he's not mafia. The scope is entirely different and using that method looks more like mafia manipulation than town pressure.

I also just said that pressure is not the issue, it's the way the pressure was added.

@sakura, why have you backed off on pressing players? My being in the game does not mean that you should sit by and do nothing. Your post to vote for me adds nothing but numerical pressure to me, which differs from how you have played the rest of the game.

Irreversible is being anti town in not answering my question. In addition to the fact that a. I already pointed out my case on you was weak but useful/interesting, there still is the redo interaction on backing off on voting him and then proceeding not to explain well (correct me if I have missed this) what these supposed "town points" that made him unvote are.

To answer why someone is scum mixer than you, typically it is important to explain why you yourself are not scummy.

Quotes wrote:

@sakura, why have you backed off on pressing players? My being in the game does not mean that you should sit by and do nothing. Your post to vote for me adds nothing but numerical pressure to me, which differs from how you have played the rest of the game.

I'm not pressing you, i'm getting scum lynched.

LOL, please explain why. I can understand if I hurt your feeling by calling you out on your bad early game play but you having a complex about that does not justify a vote on me.

I've always been voting my scumreads, and you haven't done much redemption on your slot which i originally thought was scum, you did lots of posts saying why rEdo and I were scum together then you vote Irre which means that now rEdo and me cant be scum together, you wasted lots of time trying to explain it, and it's all lost, and now you basically have nothing, pretty much scum muddying the waters and spreading mist to confuse town.

tl;dr: You were pushing rEdo's buddying as an attempt to get 2 easy mislynches, then you start subtly inviting more votes on your reads by asking other players their thoughts on it, when Irre catches it and decides to stay out of it, you immediately vote him, nullifying all you did and exposing you as the scumbag that you are.

But that wasn't what I did at all. I noted an incredibly odd interaction between you and redo and explained how they were my preliminary thoughts on the game and reading through did little to change this. I then pressed redo (and you slightly but I want to do so more) and gave a fairly good ISo on him that no one has commented on. Is my ISo unfair? Am I twisting his words in places?

As for your accusation of "there aren't 3 scum" you are right. I happen to still like redo as scum, but since I recognize my case on why I initially believed you to be scum is weak and I haven't done a strong ISo on you yet to feel confident in "these are the two scum"; it was just a useful stance to take early on to see how redo and you reacted to it.

I am voting for irreversible because I tend to agree with caligno when he said he thought irreversible could be a partner for redo backing off the vote with not the best reasoning and because, as I have said 5 times already, my case on you is weak. Do you need me to say it again?

And how does irreversible refusing to answer a question on his thoughts regarding 2 players constitute as scummy? The only thing remotely scummy in this reaction is for irreversible to refuse to answer the question.

It should be fairly clear why I am asking irreversible the question on what his thoughts on the two of you are. It's because that has been a large topic of discussion recently, and I want to see if he has an odd read or reaction to either you or redo, especially considering I ask this question after caligno's speculation on that being a potential partnership

Constitute as me being scummy*

Quotes wrote:

To answer why someone is scum mixer than you, typically it is important to explain why you yourself are not scummy.

...No? The best way to show you're innocent is to show you're innocent, not tell people that you're innocent. Of course, you also heavily limited his ability to show his innocence by reducing his options of building a case to one other person.

Yeah, that still looks a lot like manipulating guilt over scumhunting.

Your ISO on rEdo didnt go unignored, in fact what you pointed out made me realize he was blatantly budyding me and I noted it (as I pointed out before), then you proceeded to misrep me and said I was townreading him and defending him, and now you're contradicting yourself again saying that you didnt think I was as scummy and all that.

The way you're asking for feedback seems like you're subtly asking for a player on a mislynch, why do YOU have to ask for feedback on other players on your case?, if they had noticed it they would have mentioned it.

Now, at this point your lynch is what I think will give Town the most information, because the way you tried to associate both rEdo and me doesn't look like busing on him at all, so if you flip scum, i'd get a high townread on rEdo, while if you flip town, I'll know that your case was town motivated and will be looking into rEdo more tomorrow.