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[resolved] no fail

posted
Total Posts
69
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +235
nazenaze
62 posts
Joined December 2008
Topic Starter
nazenaze
This feature is nice for new players, so they can keep playing after failing, but i don't like how it works.
I spend most of osu! time at multi and sometimes there's just like 1-2 tables with weaker players trying to play harder songs with no fai - some of them would be able to finish the song without NF, some wont be and some players can S these tracks.. but no matter how u've performed your score will be halved - I don't like that :P

I would like NoFail to halve the score only if u've had to use it (the drain ate u, etc.), so that multiplayer games would be more newplayers friendly (most of them are stopping playing/rage quiting after failing) and better players can still make new high scores :>

theowest edit: very similar "continue playing request" duplicate
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Very interesting concept. Can't wait to hear what people think of this.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
RemmyX25
osu! Alumni
3,087 posts
Here since the beginning
RemmyX25

LuigiHann wrote:

On the other hand, I can picture it being kind of cool to have the mod icon show up kind of transparent at the start of the song, and then if you hit 0hp there's a crash sound and your score is halfed, and the NoFail icon lights up. It'd be dramatic.
+1 support


And for the really edgy players, give an option to turn the NoFail savior OFF. (Basically how it is now)
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo
Or make it like no-video, enabling it for yourself only.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi

Echo wrote:

Or make it like no-video, enabling it for yourself only.
YES!! THIS ^

once i was playing and i didn't notice the nofail mod (yes i know it makes you have to click ready again), it made me complete the map with bad accuracy, which was slightly annoying.
Gemi
osu! Alumni
685 posts
Joined March 2008
Gemi

awp wrote:

LuigiHann wrote:

If it works the way you suggest, there'd be no reason to ever disable it (since there's no penalty for having it on)
This is my biggest objection. Maybe 0.8x for not having to use it and 0.5x if you have to use it (when it is enabled).
I wholeheartedly agree with what awp suggested.
Nakata Yuji
471 posts
Joined April 2009
Nakata Yuji
I completely support this.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka

LuigiHann wrote:

I think NoFail has sort of a psychological component to it
see sudden death
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo
I completely disagree with the original concept of no fail only cutting your score if you use it. It's unfair. If you use it, you've used it, whether you've failed or not. Even a smaller multiplier is unfair imo.
Sir Minelli
524 posts
Joined September 2008
Sir Minelli

Echo wrote:

I completely disagree with the original concept of no fail only cutting your score if you use it. It's unfair. If you use it, you've used it, whether you've failed or not. Even a smaller multiplier is unfair imo.
I agree. After all, players that actually feel like using "No Fail", is because they know the can't pass the beatmap, so in order to do so, they activate "No Fail" and get to enjoy all of the beatmap.

From my point of view, the fact of letting "No Fail" reduce your score multiplier once you do fail, wont work.
Why? Because if this is applied, then some players wont really work hard for passing the map, knowing that they will always have "No Fail" there, and that it will only reduce their score if they fail.


I'm also against the small multiplier. Awp's opinion sounded quite interesting at the beginning, but then again, it's basically the same logic of letting "No Fail" reduce points when you do fail, even though you lost some when you activated previously.

Activating "No Fail" should automatically reduce your score multiplier as it is. Otherwise everyone would leave it on as Luigi said.
KawaiiLily
120 posts
Joined January 2009
KawaiiLily

Gabi wrote:

Echo wrote:

Or make it like no-video, enabling it for yourself only.
YES!! THIS ^

once i was playing and i didn't notice the nofail mod (yes i know it makes you have to click ready again), it made me complete the map with bad accuracy, which was slightly annoying.
YEYSYEYYEYESYEYES!!!!!
PLEASE YES!
Nachy
807 posts
Joined April 2009
Nachy

LuigiHann wrote:

I can picture it being kind of cool to have the mod icon show up kind of transparent at the start of the song, and then if you hit 0hp there's a crash sound and your score is halfed, and the NoFail icon lights up. It'd be dramatic.

Maybe it could work like that for Multi only, and still use current behavior in Solo play.
This.
Hyperworm
41 posts
Joined August 2008
Hyperworm

Daniellynet wrote:

Gabi wrote:

Echo wrote:

Or make it like no-video, enabling it for yourself only.
YES!! THIS ^

once i was playing and i didn't notice the nofail mod (yes i know it makes you have to click ready again), it made me complete the map with bad accuracy, which was slightly annoying.
YEYSYEYYEYESYEYES!!!!!
PLEASE YES!
This seems to be the only uncontroversial suggestion so far.

If we were to go this way, would it be a good idea to have some kind of indication in the game lobby showing who's using NoFail?
Daru
osu!painter
866 posts
Joined August 2008
Daru
Oh, I typed up two paragraphs only to read up on the rest of the thread and realize that it was all said already.

So....

+1 per-user basis in MP
No Support for original concept
nazenaze
62 posts
Joined December 2008
Topic Starter
nazenaze

Daru wrote:

+1 per-user basis in MP
No Support for original concept
+2 :)
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy

LuigiHann wrote:

Maybe it could work like that for Multi only, and still use current behavior in Solo play.
This.
I dont want always-on NoFail in solo. >_>
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
I don't think nofail on a per-user basis would work in coop mode though.

I guess the original concept would be kind of useful on maps where the HP drain is so high that it's just artificial difficulty but overall I think it's fine as it is now. I get pissed off when I forget to turn off nofail before playing a map and passing it normally just as anyone else does, but that's part of life or something!
ShadowzI_old
51 posts
Joined August 2011
ShadowzI_old
0-o I really have nothing to add cause all the ideas have been thrown out.
Yeah I wonder why this was not implemented...
If it is, then it needs to be advertised, described, and said so on the mod screen (total score will be halved if drain bar runs out, but you can keep playing).

Otherwise I love the idea of a safety net that only penalizes you if you use it not if it's just there.
Kuro
836 posts
Joined July 2012
Kuro
You necroposter... =.=
ShadowzI_old
51 posts
Joined August 2011
ShadowzI_old

Kuro wrote:

You necroposter... =.=
I think it's better than double posting... Dx
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama

ShadowzI wrote:

Kuro wrote:

You necroposter... =.=
I think it's better than double posting... Dx
Make it seriel necro poster =.=

Anyway it's the first time that I see this topic. Interesting idea to have a safety net, but I'd like the ability to turn it on/off on demand (ie a mod). Reason being that sometimes (in mp) I don't want to leave a record on a map that I don't wanna come back to retry later on.

As for the multiplier, what about this:

  1. [Single Player] No Change. NF as is current design.
  2. [Multiplayer] NF set by lobby host can be turned off manually by each individual players. MP NF score not counted towards ranking.
    - Default NF multiplier = x0.8
    - Multiplier = x0.4 from 1st revival
    - Multiplier = x0.2 from 2nd revival
    - Multiplier = x0.1 from 3rd revival (capped at x0.1)
This should help separate those who failed more during the game. I see this more as a fun factor in mp rather than replacing a functionality in ranking mode.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Score calculations happen dynamically. It would be a waste of resources to recalculate the entire song as if you hadn't failed/failed it. Fatal flaw if you ask me.
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama

TheVileOne wrote:

Score calculations happen dynamically. It would be a waste of resources to recalculate the entire song as if you hadn't failed/failed it. Fatal flaw if you ask me.
Is this addressed to my post above? If so, I did propose a dynamic calculation instead of a "back tracking" calculation.

Oinari-sama wrote:

[*][Multiplayer] NF set by lobby host can be turned off manually by each individual players. MP NF score not counted towards ranking.
- Default NF multiplier = x0.8
- Multiplier = x0.4 from 1st revival
- Multiplier = x0.2 from 2nd revival
- Multiplier = x0.1 from 3rd revival (capped at x0.1)[/list]
What I meant was that a new multiplier kick in from the point of failure. So if this is the first time someone failed, the multiplier from that point on becomes x0.4. His score up to the point of the failure stays the same, ie [No Mod Score] x 0.8. If he fails the 2nd time a new multiplier of x0.2 kicks in and all his score up to that point stays untouched. There's no "back tracking" calculation proposed.

EDIT: I think instead of 1st/2nd/3rd "Revival," it'd make more sense if my previous post read 1st/2nd/3rd "Fail." The new multiplier should kick in as soon as the player fail.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I don't know why no fail should work with different multipliers depending on if you're playing single or multiplayer. That does not make sense to me.
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama

TheVileOne wrote:

I don't know why no fail should work with different multipliers depending on if you're playing single or multiplayer. That does not make sense to me.
Well if you ask my honest opinion, I reckon that No Fail scores should never be ranked, be it Single or Multi. But that's not for me to decide.

I was simply trying to address the scenario brought up by the OP. It's a compromise to bring more fun factor to that scenario, while having minimum impact on current ranking system.

It may be viable to use the same multiplier for Single mode too, but the numbers need to be discussed more. Just a thought starter.
Renske_old
Renske_old

Oinari-sama wrote:

  1. [Single Player] No Change. NF as is current design.
  2. [Multiplayer] NF set by lobby host can be turned off manually by each individual players. MP NF score not counted towards ranking.
    - Default NF multiplier = x0.8
    - Multiplier = x0.4 from 1st revival
    - Multiplier = x0.2 from 2nd revival
    - Multiplier = x0.1 from 3rd revival (capped at x0.1)
This should help separate those who failed more during the game. I see this more as a fun factor in mp rather than replacing a functionality in ranking mode.
I support this, sounds like a fun thing to have for multiplayer!
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao

TheVileOne wrote:

I don't know why no fail should work with different multipliers depending on if you're playing single or multiplayer. That does not make sense to me.
I think the calculation is not a problem, since you just halve the current score and set the multiplier halved.
The interesting fact is, in osu!mania, when each note is hit a square root function is run! And no (significant) delay is found, right?

By the idea itself, I think it great since this both prevent the multiplier level high enough for players who doesn't fail at all, which suit the idea of all similar posts, and low enough to award these players who are brave enough to challenge the map with nomod, which is many concern focused on.

Actually, I believe the penalty should be taken place only after 3 deaths, or it is noting better than EZ mod.
Winek
888 posts
Joined September 2013
Winek
Interesting!
Primula_old
Primula_old
Bump because mine was a dupe~

I don't understand why people object to this with reason being "because there would be no reason to turn it off".. how is that a bad thing?
Why is failing necessary? Why can it not be optional? If you really prefer to fail.. then continue playing as you normally would without it, but people who'd rather play a song in its entirety without being penalized if they don't actually fail should be given such an option.

Quote from my topic
Failing during the first few notes then FCing the rest of the map would lead to a score close to that of someone that didn't fail, because the first notes don't count as much.
With my first proposed solution, if you do fail (hp depletes) during the map with nofail mod.. the score will behave as it normally does with the current nofail implementation (0.50x multiplier applied).

For the 2nd, you'd still end up with lower score than someone able to fc even if it's not as lower and also you wouldn't gain as much PP (assuming FC still plays role in the new PP system). Isn't it by popular opinion that 'score means nothing' these days ?

Either way, the 1st is the one that wouldn't change anything (Otherthan whatever assumed psychological change nofail mod has on you.. personally none - it's rather subjective) so would be the preferable one.. because apparently people don't like change around here and additionally it's more fair for those who have already ranked with nofail in the past. (I don't feel we'll ever have any new mods brought to osu! due to the fact that it would cause significant QQ to those that have already ranked with the current mods on previous plays - disrupting the current minimum/maximum score multipliers is 'BAD')
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Primula wrote:

Bump because mine was a dupe~

I don't understand why people object to this with reason being "because there would be no reason to turn it off".. how is that a bad thing?
Why is failing necessary? Why can it not be optional? If you really prefer to fail.. then continue playing as you normally would without it, but people who'd rather play a song in its entirety without being penalized if they don't actually fail should be given such an option.

Quote from my topic
Failing during the first few notes then FCing the rest of the map would lead to a score close to that of someone that didn't fail, because the first notes don't count as much.
With my first proposed solution, if you do fail (hp depletes) during the map with nofail mod.. the score will behave as it normally does with the current nofail implementation (0.50x multiplier applied).

For the 2nd, you'd still end up with lower score than someone able to fc even if it's not as lower and also you wouldn't gain as much PP (assuming FC still plays role in the new PP system). Isn't it by popular opinion that 'score means nothing' these days ?

Either way, the 1st is the one that wouldn't change anything (Otherthan whatever assumed psychological change nofail mod has on you.. personally none - it's rather subjective) so would be the preferable one.. because apparently people don't like change around here and additionally it's more fair for those who have already ranked with nofail in the past. (I don't feel we'll ever have any new mods brought to osu! due to the fact that it would cause significant QQ to those that have already ranked with the current mods on previous plays - disrupting the current minimum/maximum score multipliers is 'BAD')
Isn't it by popular opinion that 'score means nothing' these days ?
No.

Why is failing necessary? Why can it not be optional?
When you start playing a map, you play it with an objective in mind: passing, fcing, top ranking, B ranking etc. The score penalty is compensation for a safety net when you COMPLETELY FUCK UP part of a map. Nofail is rarely used for top ranking aside from special maps and when it is used for ranking the player should know that if they don't get the combo they need at the easier parts of the map then their score will not be successful; giving the player 2 options for success (passing a hard map instantly placing them high in the rankings or gaining a relatively large combo via grinding) should not happen.

If you want to top rank a map that is impossible to pass for you at your level then you probably aren't good enough to top rank it and don't deserve the rank in the first place (excluding special maps such as tag4 difficulties).

I don't see any reason for this, you will NEVER use nofail to get a rank on a map because your score will be too shitty to get you a good rank even if you do pass. If you want a serious score then don't use nofail, there are NO ranked/approved maps as of now that have not been passed so if you can't keep up with the the consistency of other players then you shouldn't be given an option to compensate for your own incompetence.

I would use this mod if the changes were applied but that's only because you'd have to be a moron not to.

I don't feel we'll ever have any new mods brought to osu! due to the fact that it would cause significant QQ to those that have already ranked with the current mods on previous plays
Yes basically this and you just have to deal with it. You may not have any ranks you spent hours upon hours achieving but other people do and they don't want to see them lost because some newbie suggested "spastic spinning background mod +0.12% score".
Kuronosu
57 posts
Joined February 2011
Kuronosu
I don't think that this feature would make any sense.. just ruining the whole game.
It's only good for PP farmers.

jesus1412: You are totally right!! (Y)
meeeeeeeeeeeeau
15 posts
Joined December 2013
meeeeeeeeeeeeau
quick reply dint work ~_~

when one plays with NF
if player clears the map = he gets actual score not .5x
if he loses ... gets usual .5x
why it makes sense
"A kid saving a cat is a hero regardless of him wearing a gloves or not" ;)

implementation should be easy, to always calculate two scores when played with nf and chose one of em based on map cleared or not.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

meeeeeeeeeeeeau wrote:

quick reply dint work ~_~

when one plays with NF
if player clears the map = he gets actual score not .5x
if he loses ... gets usual .5x
why it makes sense
"A kid saving a cat is a hero regardless of him wearing a gloves or not" ;)

implementation should be easy, to always calculate two scores when played with nf and chose one of em based on map cleared or not.
When you start playing a map, you play it with an objective in mind: passing, fcing, top ranking, B ranking etc. The score penalty is compensation for a safety net when you COMPLETELY FUCK UP part of a map. Nofail is rarely used for top ranking aside from special maps and when it is used for ranking the player should know that if they don't get the combo they need at the easier parts of the map then their score will not be successful; giving the player 2 options for success (passing a hard map instantly placing them high in the rankings or gaining a relatively large combo via grinding) should not happen.

If you want to top rank a map that is impossible to pass for you at your level then you probably aren't good enough to top rank it and don't deserve the rank in the first place (excluding special maps such as tag4 difficulties).

I don't see any reason for this, you will NEVER use nofail to get a rank on a map because your score will be too shitty to get you a good rank even if you do pass. If you want a serious score then don't use nofail, there are NO ranked/approved maps as of now that have not been passed so if you can't keep up with the the consistency of other players then you shouldn't be given an option to compensate for your own incompetence.

I would use this mod if the changes were applied but that's only because you'd have to be a moron not to.
materiauser
3 posts
Joined July 2013
materiauser
I see no reason not to vote for it, so I did. I never seen anyone play like that personally though. I am guilty of playing with relax on though =P. But only when everyone is picking insanes (I'm just a decent hard player at best) and I'm like half everyone's rank.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Is this multi only?
Otherwise everyone would always use NF, as their score would still be as good as normal, and they can practise all parts.
I'd say make it multi only tbh
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
If this becomes a thing then nofail should be removed and this would simply become a gameplay feature (and it would suck ass).
sarysa
11 posts
Joined September 2014
sarysa
I was actually going to suggest there being a No Fail variant the same as the OP described (no rank on fail, 100% on success)...and I did, then suddenly noticed this was on page 1. Whoops.

Anyway, I'd call it maybe:
Practice on Fail

since you'd be bumped to a practice mode immediately on failure. Would also need to work around that issue in multiplayer where people come back from failure.

It's a bit of a rhythm game staple. The way osu! does it is a bit odd.

osu! is (in)famous for its difficulty in general...not wasting time or frustration with failing would make it more accessible for newer players. And lets face it, some songs put in some serious dirty tricks maybe 2 or 3 minutes in. Others just naturally difficulty spike because the song ends in an epic and complicated finish. In a few you can just literally never heal. These songs have more A's than B's on first pass. With the tens of thousands of beatmaps available it's no wonder people abandon a ton of them because of confusing layout/stacking or extremely high HP drain or difficulty spikes. Might get these beatmaps more played.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

baraatje123 wrote:

Is this multi only?
Otherwise everyone would always use NF, as their score would still be as good as normal, and they can practise all parts.
I'd say make it multi only tbh
Multi already behaves like this.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-

Narrill wrote:

baraatje123 wrote:

Is this multi only?
Otherwise everyone would always use NF, as their score would still be as good as normal, and they can practise all parts.
I'd say make it multi only tbh
Multi already behaves like this.
It does not
Use NF
Pass completely --> 50%
'fail' --> 50%
No NF
Pass --> 100%
Fail --> not submitted
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl
Yes it does. If you fail during multi you still play out the map, but your score isn't submitted.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-

Narrill wrote:

Yes it does. If you fail during multi you still play out the map, but your score isn't submitted.
That's exactly the same as I said ;-;
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl
And it's exactly the same as what this feature request proposes. Hence, it already works that way in multi.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
It does not
This request
NF
Pass --> 100%
Fail--> 50%

Multi
NF
Pass --> 50
Fail --> 50
sarysa
11 posts
Joined September 2014
sarysa
Actually, looking at my records as I've had a few necro's in MP lately, it seems to work like this:
Multiplayer pass: 100%
Multiplayer fail but revived and stayed alive long enough to reach the end: 100%
Multiplayer fail: 0%, but your failing grade is shown. (your percentage and score are not reported to the server)

The second instance has got to be a bug.
ikzune
159 posts
Joined August 2013
ikzune
i know that some vsrgs are designed so you dont fail however you may reach 0% hp which is indicated as a fail, i think it would be better that the dont fail mod is already in the game when you play and if the hp bar gets fully drained then it should just be a 50% reduction
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama

sarysa wrote:

Actually, looking at my records as I've had a few necro's in MP lately, it seems to work like this:
Multiplayer pass: 100%
Multiplayer fail but revived and stayed alive long enough to reach the end: 100%
Multiplayer fail: 0%, but your failing grade is shown. (your percentage and score are not reported to the server)

The second instance has got to be a bug.
The 2nd scenario will only count in Local Record, it won't be submitted for online ranking.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

baraatje123 wrote:

It does not
This request
NF
Pass --> 100%
Fail--> 50%

Multi
NF
Pass --> 50
Fail --> 50
Multi without NF behaves like the first example. I didn't think I'd actually have to spell that out.
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