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Are you a new mapper struggling to get your work noticed?

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Ephemeral
Having problems getting a BN to check your work? Having trouble getting your work modded in general? Feel like it is impossible to breach into the Ranked category without winning the lottery?

I'd like to hear your story.

There's a growing clamour of voices lately saying that newer mappers experience considerably more trouble than ever before in trying to get a foot into the door as far as the mapping scene goes, even with things like the Community Mentorship program and other grassroots initiatives to involve newer people.

Please feel free to respond in this thread detailing your struggles, or if you'd prefer some privacy, send me an email at ephemeral@ppy.sh instead.

Your feedback will be reviewed and used to help shape future efforts and initiatives to try and fix this problem.
Gibune
As a newer mapper with about 9 months of experience now and recently (5 days ago) getting my first ranked I feel like I have a good grasp on this kind of topic. For a little intro I had only really been playing the game since two years ago and had no osu friends(to get me into mapping) and I'm also fluent in english which could change peoples experiences. I'll also kind of go through this chronologically.

the first thing getting me into mapping was Pishifat's videos as I think would be the same for a lot of people. I just thought mapping would be cool and Pishifat had one of the few mapping guides out there although some of his topics are outdated now. I mapped my first map and then joined a few discords that I found through google about osu mapping. So through that I started to talk to other mappers which helped me get a grasp of mapping although I never really talked that much about mapping (I think finding osu mapping discords is kinda hard for new mappers and probably for non-english mappers), anyways I just put my map in some mod ques and eventually it got nuked and wall modded about how bad it was. I think this could make people not want to map but I expected it. I think getting your first maps modded or given feedback on can be tough and this is probably one bit that needs to be improved somehow.

After I'm making a few maps I talk to more people about mapping and a few good mappers about mapping. I think this is something that people don't do but I understand it can be hard to just go hey can you look at my map to people you look up to. At this point in terms of getting my maps noticed, it was easier to get mods from people as just posting in mod ques was enough and through discord servers finding people to talk to and improve was easier.

now about getting my first ranked map, between here and last paragraph is like 6-7 months it takes time and maybe people get stuck there. Just saying it straight out. Bns do not ignore unranked mappers. Yes it may seem like it. I asked for bns for like 6 of my maps before I finally got one bn to say yes I'll nominate your map. Its just how it is, your map probably sucks. Sometimes the bn will say ways to improve and why they don't want to nominate (shoutout to sonnyc, he always gave feedback and reasons) but some will not and that's ok. Respect the bns and their rules and what they do, at the end of the day its volunteer work and if they don't want to nominate maps they wouldn't become bn. Sometimes people will feel like getting bns is just done through being friends and yes I won't deny that happens and personally I think it's fine but they nominate random mappers maps too. My bns for my map I had never talked to before ever. I'm pretty sure bns would even prefer unranked mappers sometimes as it makes them feel good bringing a new mapper into the ranked section.

overall I think first starting to map could be a struggle, most people hang out on discords and its not really clear where to find them. Getting mods is not a challenge, you can get a bn. I also forgot to add this somewhere. Lots and lots of people are kind and helpful, I don’t think I’ve talked to a single person who was rude and toxic towards me and my maps.
DeletedUser_13957006
I honestly would like more detail on how this works. How would people start noticing unnoticed / new mappers' maps? How would it affect nominations, BNs and possibly the ranking criteria? Does it have rules or guidelines in order to work? Does it only help maps getting ranked? Or maybe loved too, depending on the situation? Or does it just help getting the map more recognized overall? It's really not specified how it works on the surface so I'm curious to what this will bring to the table.
Megafan
I've been mapping for 5 years and the only problem I see is getting feedback for "not going to ranked" sets, maybe it's just me, but I'm shy and I don't have the confidence to ask for help to big mappers because I feel like I will be bothering them.
Some graveyard mappers maybe enjoy doing maps for fun, but some of them (or the majority) actually want to improve as a mapper but don't want to rank their maps, and I'm from the group that doesn't have any clue about who should we ask for help rather than just asking for testplays.

Another thing that can be a factor of this is not many mappers from my country are good enough or just don't know anything about modding, so we cannot trade any knowledge because only one of them will eventually be the one that's teaching everything he knows about to new mappers.
This year I decided to finally rank something, but because I'm not able to know which mapper apart from the ones I like should I try to ask for feedback, I'm stuck in an infinite loop of giving up any project I start.

This is not a message about not finding any modders, but it's a mindset about thinking every top tier mapper should get top tier maps to give feedback to.
Asphiee

Megafan wrote:

I've been mapping for 5 years and the only problem I see is getting feedback for "not going to ranked" sets, maybe it's just me, but I'm shy and I don't have the confidence to ask for help to big mappers because I feel like I will be bothering them.
Some graveyard mappers maybe enjoy doing maps for fun, but some of them (or the majority) actually want to improve as a mapper but don't want to rank their maps, and I'm from the group that doesn't have any clue about who should we ask for help rather than just asking for testplays.

Another thing that can be a factor of this is not many mappers from my country are good enough or just don't know anything about modding, so we cannot trade any knowledge because only one of them will eventually be the one that's teaching everything he knows about to new mappers.
This year I decided to finally rank something, but because I'm not able to know which mapper apart from the ones I like should I try to ask for feedback, I'm stuck in an infinite loop of giving up any project I start.

This is not a message about not finding any modders, but it's a mindset about thinking every top tier mapper should get top tier maps to give feedback to.
At the end of the day theyre just humans. Don't worry, we are not so bad as we think. There's just times and conditions which triggers our unpleasant side. You can't deny the fact that there's mappers in osu who want to be part of the change and would want to help another person. That's why as Gibune said, there's BNs that prefers to nominate non-ranked mappers. That, right there, is what you call goodwill (or any terms relating to that). Time will come where you'll be in their position and that's the time where you should look back behind you and reminisce the times when you were in their shoes.

But I'm still struggling to find BNs tho. xD
loveheerin
osu!mania RC's guideline items are very annoying.
It's being enforced like a de facto rule, not a guideline.
If osu!mania's mapping wants to revive again, it must be revised as soon as soon as possible.
Narrative
I've been mapping for 2 years now, and I'm finally at the point where my maps are barely rankable quality (well at least that's what I want to think). When I try to find a BN, they are usually closed or my map doesn't fit their preferences so it's pretty hard to find a BN, and if you find one, you wont be guaranteed a nomination. Sometimes it feels like its first come first served or bias (very rarely), which obviously isn't the case most of the time.

But at the end of the day, I think the reason why many mappers are having trouble is because of competition. Since people are staying home there will obviously be more mappers and more maps trying to get pushed to rank so the expectations for a map are much higher than ever before. This is just how I think as of now.
clayton
edit: this post is only about osu!standard's situation

pointing out some things first
  1. playerbase size naturally correlates with # of people who have trouble with any of this
  2. "getting your work noticed", "getting your work modded", and "getting a BN to check" are all very different things in modern mapping ecosystem
  3. mappers aren't entitled to have their maps Ranked
I'm not a big fan of the way this topic is being presented... you make it sound like the issue is that mappers with maps worthy of being Ranked are having a hard time getting them Ranked, but I'm willing to bet the actual issue is that newer mappers misunderstand the purpose of Ranked and either have a hard time finding mapping resources or simply don't care about improvement outside the milestones of the ranking process. this is backed up by a few studies that looked into exactly this via alt. mapper accounts and stuff, I know you're aware of those too

I'd love to help newer mappers improve their skill and then let them get involved in the ranking process naturally, not encourage them to jump through the ranking process while still picking up novice concepts. I'd argue there's already a massive problem with mappers lacking experience making it through the ranking process and hurting the game
Serizawa Haruki

clayton wrote:

I'm not a big fan of the way this topic is being presented... you make it sound like the issue is that mappers with maps worthy of being Ranked are having a hard time getting them Ranked, but I'm willing to bet the actual issue is that newer mappers misunderstand the purpose of Ranked and either have a hard time finding mapping resources or simply don't care about improvement outside the milestones of the ranking process. this is backed up by a few studies that looked into exactly this via alt. mapper accounts and stuff, I know you're aware of those too

I'd love to help newer mappers improve their skill and then let them get involved in the ranking process naturally, not encourage them to jump through the ranking process while still picking up novice concepts. I'd argue there's already a massive problem with mappers lacking experience making it through the ranking process and hurting the game
While you are right that most new mappers tend to think their maps are ready to be ranked when they are not, this is not the only issue.

I would like to mention that the struggle to find modders and BNs is not limited to newer mappers. Even some mappers with several ranked maps or others who are capable of making good maps without having any ranked ones have a hard time to go through the ranking process for various reasons.

One of them is the fact that the number of mappers is constantly increasing because many old mappers continue mapping for years while new mappers emerge at the same time. However, the number of BNs doesn't increase. In fact, we have seen a significant decline in the size of the BNG for osu!standard over the past few years (almost halved). Therefore it's to be expected that BNs get overwhelmed with requests whenever they open because the demand is so immense and for this reason only a fraction of BNs are open at any given time. Mappers often need to wait for several months until they have found a BN who wants to mod their map which can be really discouraging. This is by no means the fault of BNs though, most of them are trying really hard to help people with their maps. The care package might help bringing some old BNs back, but it won't solve the problem entirely. To become a BN, you need to invest a lot of time and energy and it's easy to lose motivation if you are denied multiple times (which is the case for most people who try). I think a rework in how the BN subsystem functions is overdue, but I won't go into details here.

Finding "normal" modders is not as difficult, but in some cases it can be challenging as well if your map falls into a niche category. But even if finding modders is possible, the problem is that most modders are not able to give helpful feedback because they lack modding experience. So if new mappers get mods from someone who isn't very experienced, they will probably still struggle to understand how they can truly improve. There probably aren't enough resources to learn how to get better at modding.
roufou
For taiko it kinda seems like only two or three BNs are available for requests from the average person atm, I could be wrong but that's what it looked like last time I checked. Sure that's enough to get your map ranked but it seems kinda tough to bother the three BNs who are available when they're probably getting so many requests due to being the only BNs available, and feeling quite certain those BNs won't really like your type of music.

I will say I could try harder to rank stuff, but honestly it is way too much of a bother to even want to, I've experienced one BN simply say they weren't interested in nominating my map, which isn't necessarily a big deal but it still sucks.

I know someone who I think worked relatively hard on a map for like 6 months, not sure how much he spent time (I had a GD on the set) and they got a ton of mods and the map seems perfectly fine to me, perhaps just a tweak from BN checks or so and I feel like it SHOULD be fine. But he claims that all BNs just say they don't like the song and aren't interested, I can't prove he is speaking the truth but I imagine he wouldn't just lie. (I guess I could be mistaken on how good the map is)

In general literally everyone who doesn't get ranked maps frequently seem to take issue with ranking stuff, it feels like only the same people get ranked, or a few maps with incredibly safe spreads and simple songs get ranked, some of the maps I don't really get why get past the BNs as opposed to other stuff that seems to struggle getting ranked.

I'm sorry if you're a BN and it seems like I'm criticizing you for being "lazy" or "inadequate", I'm sure you work decently hard and have your own issues to deal with that cause you to not be able to serve every request you get. But it genuinely seems like we have a problem to me, no idea how to fix it though.

I've considered becoming a BN myself simply so I can help others rank stuff and get my own stuff ranked, but it's too much of a commitment for me I think, I have other stuff I try to focus on as well.
Cubby
I've been mapping for 2 years i think now and i feel like my work is very undervalued in my opinion. I think that my mapping speed has just bloated and sort of made my maps feel worse as they are "boring" "the same" or stuff like that. It feels really demotivating at times and i don't really even bother much with ranking maps anymore tbh i feel like you need to build a reputation around your mapping to get bns to really want to nominate your maps. So in this case i don't really bother with ranking maps anymore since it takes too much time and effort that will just go to waste so i just focus on improving.

Ultimately i think its a really unhealthy cycle to have to i don't really map as often anymore tbh since i just think to myself that no one really cares about map A or map B. I think the most demotivating thing said is not that your map is garbage is that your maps are not improving.
clayton
@Serizawa I know it's not the only issue, but I have a bad feeling that attempting to "solve" this stuff without addressing the usefulness of some barriers to Ranked is going to result in an even worse version of the problems we've already got on that front. I admit I'm skipping ahead with some assumptions about how the ideas in this thread may be applied though.
TmacBoris

clayton wrote:

edit: this post is only about osu!standard's situation

I'm not a big fan of the way this topic is being presented... you make it sound like the issue is that mappers with maps worthy of being Ranked are having a hard time getting them Ranked, but I'm willing to bet the actual issue is that newer mappers misunderstand the purpose of Ranked and either have a hard time finding mapping resources or simply don't care about improvement outside the milestones of the ranking process.
Actually it is true that a lot of maps worthy of being ranked are left unnoticed. look at the number of requests in all std BN queues if they get opened. They get about 200 requests or even more at one time. They can't just deal with this number of reqs and choose only few maps to mod. Usually they pick mappers that they are familiar with. So if you don't have name, you have very low chance to get bn's attention. Note: not every map of that 200 is worth ranking, but i bet about 50 are still pretty good, it's a big number. Also i think some maps not worth ranking proceed to ranked, but it's for another topic.


Idk if I can consider myself new to mapping, i started mapping in 2017, so now i have 3 years experience of mapping, modding and mentoring.
But i have some problems of getting my maps ranked. And the problem is not that my maps have unrankables or some bad design. I'm confident cause i have feedback from exBNs, i have huge modding experience myself, and a lot of people just refuse my mod requests saying "i can't find any issue". BN usually reply "i don't like the song" if they even reply.
I have no idea how to solve that issue while BN is volunteer work, they don't have to push songs they don't like.
McEndu
The most obvious one is that a lot of BNs are closed at a time, and the can be times in minority modes in which nobody is open, and everyone is either "closed" and "chosing on own accord". This results in the requirement to check the listing regularly in order to snipe (find a BN open), and that can be tedious.
Liiraye
I think as people have mentioned, this is not a problem isolated to new mappers. There's simply too many maps that require checks and not enough nominators available. Lets take a look at the current status of our BN's:

This is not meant to call people out, but rather to paint a picture of how much they need to do in todays climate.

Listed under "current BN's" in osu standard

(to be fair, those that are closed are probably backlogged, which strengthens the point that there are too few bns and too many requests).

QAT:
1: rarely nominate, but if you fit a specific criteria of artists you can request a mod
2: modding status: x
3: closed for 17 days
4: always open but very picky, will reply though
5: N/A
6: don't mod anymore
7: taking time off due to personal reasons
8: refers to mappers guild bn requests (a general hub for requests)
9: mods through discord modding events or picked through #modreqs
10: just checks what they like, but open

BN:
11: seems open & with a bunch of criterias
12: closed, on a 2 week break
13: open with pretty minor preferences
14: closed
15: closed
16: closed
17: open
18: closed, full
19: only accepts mods from personal discord server, "does not have the energy to reject everyone" (paraphrased).
20: closed
21: closed
22: closed
23: "I pick what I want to nominate, don't request"
24: closed
25: closed
26: closed
27: closed
28: closed
29: unclear, probably open but very busy
30: closed, opens queue 2 days a month, all requests there
31: closed
32: closed
33: closed, will reopen after checking 80 PMs...
34: closed
35: closed, probably won't return
36: closed, on holiday
37: requests open on google docs form with very strict criterias
38: don't take requests but mods on own accord
39: refers to mappers guild bn requests
40: open but picky, many things to mod so chance to get a mod is close to 0
41: closed
42: unclear
43: closed
44: closed but seemingly open to exceptions? idk
45: closed
46: closed
47: closed
48: closed but soon open
49: closed
50: unclear
51: closed, too many requests
52: closed
53: might be open for a specific country, for others it's closed
54: closed
55: closed
56: open but will not reply in some cases(?)
57: closed queue but pms are open?
58: closed
59: always open
60: open through old pm. (personally I remember requesting this many months ago and got no reply, perhaps very busy)
61: closed for a while
62: closed
63: semi-closed, not modding for 2 weeks
64: closed
65: seems open but recently taken a lot of requests?
66: closed
67: open with very strict standards
68: closed
69: closed
70: (fu for that long scroll lol) closed
71: closed

QAT:

5/9 open, 1 unclear

3 of whom are very picky
1 of whom refers to a general hub for requests
1 mods on their own accord and through events

BN:

16/61 open

5 of whom with strict/very strict criterias
3 unclear, probabaly open but busy
6 seem open without that big criterias
1 is closed to the world except their country
1 close to 0 chance to get a mod from

As you can see, to the few that are available, a lot of them (which isn't a lot to begin with) have either strict criterias or mod on their own accord (not taking requests).

In other words, 6-9 out of 61 BN's seem open to anyone. But even then we KNOW that they must reject a lot of requests, because they simply get overwhelmed due to the current 85-90% closed BN's funneling requests to those that are open.

As someone who has requested mods from BAT/BN's since 2013, I can tell you that this is pretty much how it always has been too. Overwhelming majority either closed / has a very strict criteria / has too many requests despite not having many criterias. Difference now is that we have many millions more players.
sytho
its been like 1.5 years since i ranked a map, every month of that time i would make 2 maps that i would try and rank, still unsuccessful. im at the point where im just used to throwing away my work and it doesnt even bother me that much
Flowziee
I think there's 3 main issues myself and others I know have been concerned about regarding this. (this is largely based on my experiences, take what you will of this post, some of it may be entirely inccurate)

Firstly, it's the fact that good, albeit generic maps SHOULD be ranked. There are SO many BNs with a million requirements/prerequisites that some perfectly fine maps are deliberately being ignored. I feel like as a BN, all songs and maps should be considered. Sure, preferences are fine and all, but it's really sad knowing that some BNs NEVER consider anything out of their comfort zone. A good map can sometimes be swept under the rug simply because "song is too boring" or "it adds no new content to the game". Those imo are some really shit excuses. Just because a song is "too boring" for your tastes means it shouldn't be ranked? Like, are you kidding me? If the map represents the song fine, why shouldn't it NOT be ranked, other than some superficial reason? And besides, a large portion of modern content is not really new by any means anyways. Point is, when majority of BNs are THAT selective of genres, there's bound to be many good maps that are just in graved. Now, I'm not saying "BNs are lazy and bad yaddayaddayadda". I feel like although frowned upon, it's necessary. This leads to my next point.

Secondly, the BNG feels a bit understaffed. Even though I personally dislike the millions of requirements / preferences BNs expect when you request a map, I can't help but think it's not entirely their fault. In the end, they look through HUNDREDS of requests from like 10 different channels, and it's extremely straining for them. In order to cut out the already gargantuan amount of work that is held upon them, they ofc have to put in those preferences. Add into the fact that they sometimes close for months on end, and they're barely (if not) approachable at all. They do have to uphold quality standards after all (which honestly, even looking at the number of requests makes me feel sick). I feel like there should be more BNs in general to help spread out work a bit more, but ofc that comes with the problem of assessing a lot of BNs, and then the risk of possibly having the ranked section decrease in terms of mapping quality (which I wouldn't want at all). Point here is that there's just too few working too hard. Only time will tell though if there's more people willing to be in BN/NAT. Otherwise, I don't think this can be helped anytime soon.

Thirdly, there is no doubt that there's at least some preferential treatment (aka circlejerking or w/e you wanna call it).
This is what I'm not okay with. There has been cases where BNs do a Nom4Nom, or where BNs have a select few whose maps they'll always look at. I feel like this is extremely unfair to the general masses, that perhaps some people may have to work so much harder to get ranked maps than others. I get that preferential treatment exists, because the mappers involved are probably already pretty good at mapping, and in turn that allows for easy nominations. It's a win-win for both parties in this case, but that really crushes the hopes of many up-and-coming mappers. It's very discouraging to most people really, when other people have that privilege when they don't.

I definitely appreciate the efforts of the BNs, and the programmes that have come up. (for e.g mentorship etc.) Although it may be extremely hard to get into, no doubt that many have benefitted from said programme. I feel like programmes like these are a good step forward in resolving this whole "good unranked mapper cant receive attention" fiasco. I myself, had the luxury of getting feedback from BNs (even as a newbie mapper), in that I am eternally grateful for. I am writing thise because it's just sad to see my peers having a hard time getting things ranked, because of the aforementioned issues, when they are already better than some ranked mappers imo.

This was purely based on mappers that are already capable of mapping potentially rankable beatmaps. ofc this absolutely does not apply to newer mappers who more than likely don't know what they're doing and taking things too quickly. This is just purely my opinion, I do not mean any harm, nor do I want to call anybody out for this. I also would like to mention that as much as it sounds like it, I'm not labelling all BNs negatively, as I have met some really nice people (BNs and experienced mappers alike). This is overall a summary on the frustrations some of my good mapping friends have with the current system.
Mordred
I'm not really someone struggling to rank maps but I figured it'd be interesting to give my thoughts on this as well.

The main issue is that, as Liiraye pointed out, 90% of bns are either closed or pretend to be closed. Now, there's nothing wrong with being closed for a while (I've been closed for a few weeks because I simply wanted to take a break after being almost always open for over a year), it becomes an issue when you never open for the "public" but only for your friends. I'm sure almost every bn is guilty of favoring their friends every now and then (won't exclude myself from that), and I don't think that's a bad thing on its own, but once you don't nominate maps from anyone not in your friend group or only extremely rarely it becomes a bit concerning.
Unfortunately I have no idea how to do anything about that, activity requirements are already a joke and don't even seem to be enforced, the only thing that might help a bit is to make bn maps not count as activity, which has been suggested plenty of times before.


I don't think it's insanely difficult to get a map ranked (if the entire bng denies it there's probably a reason for it though), I myself have nominated plenty of "first ranked maps", and considering all the 1-2 pp farm garbage that gets ranked on the daily it's not like the standards are unreasonably high. People complain a lot that their map gets rejected for song choice, which ... very often not the real reason, lots of bns just don't know how to be honest or are scared they might offend someone by telling them their map is not up to rankable standards (which is also why I'm always honest about why I reject maps if someone asks, but for some reason only 2/50 people ever do so, which makes me think people care more about ranking a map than improving as a mapper).

That being said there are a lot of experienced mappers with lots of ranked maps that also struggle to rank maps, and I'm not entirely sure why, the only thing I could think of is, as said before, that 90% of the bng is perma closed and that they don't want to ask closed bns. There are also some bns that reject anything that looks like too much effort (4 min full spreads come to mind) so that doesn't help either. There are also, to put it simply, a shit ton of maps out there wanting to be nominated, as Liiraye said, which would make it hard to get to everyone even if every single bn was open.

Oh and then we have stuff like this (that tab lists nominations done in the last 90 days)



also to everyone saying "it's rankable so it should be ranked", consider that bns are only human as well and would like to not burn out from accepting to many maps they don't like :D

but you're free to become bn yourself and try to change this
Tankuwi
Main issue about BN System is about ignoring most of EDM-maps bcause a lot of bns don't like these musics and prefer to check most of openings which are already ranked 10 times and more which causes butthurt or just disappointment in ranking system. The fact is osu needs more variety of genres of music to be played bcause nowadays new people join to play osu and leave it bcause of lack of edm musics. Even from 5-digit players there're a lot of players which are not playing for a really long time. And the main reason is osu has a tons of anime or japanese rocks/pops which are really annoying when u play it for a long time.

For me osu! is the most popular rhythm game which should have a lot of musics u can play and not only anime, japanese songs but dubsteps, d&b, trances, hardcores etc.

Extra issue is too little quantity of bns for thousands of mappers which are trying hard to rank their maps. We see that osu!std has only 80 bns for this really huge quantity which causes troubles with finding bns bcause they have more than 100 map requests to check but i see that bn work is really hard bcause they should check every single moments for rankability + check hitsounds and also storyboards, skins if they're present there. Here's two resolving ways:
1. Making salary for their works can motivate much of bns continue to do their hard works(i think it's more than possible bcause much of players pay for osu!supporter which costs $5 for month only but supporter can be longer and price is higher accordingly and supporter is not only thing you pay to get it.
2. Hire more bns to increase quantity to 200 and more. This can help mappers to increase their chances to find bns with a lot of minds, not only openings.
Liiraye

Mordred wrote:

That being said there are a lot of experienced mappers with lots of ranked maps that also struggle to rank maps, and I'm not entirely sure why, the only thing I could think of is, as said before, that 90% of the bng is perma closed and that they don't want to ask closed bns. There are also some bns that reject anything that looks like too much effort (4 min full spreads come to mind) so that doesn't help either. There are also, to put it simply, a shit ton of maps out there wanting to be nominated, as Liiraye said, which would make it hard to get to everyone even if every single bn was open.
Personally I think I could fit into the "experienced mapper with ranked maps that struggle to get ranks". I think it may be different for everyone, but once you become old enough in the community, you don't keep up with the connections you once had. The friends you knew quit or stopped mapping/being BN's. Once you're out of the "active mapping community" so to speak, I feel that it naturally gets harder to get a BN check. Besides that, I think the main thing is the discrepancy between # of mappers and # of available BN's.

I'm not blaming anyone, I don't have enough time to stay involved with every iteration of new mappers and BN's, it's my own choice not to get involved. However I think that could explain why a bunch of us older peeps just talk in discord and map for leisure, rarely getting things ranked anymore despite being fully capable experience wise. I know quite a few like me.

Then when we feel like ranking something, it's back to the same old request strat I've always had, check modding queues or PM the BN's that are available/open and ask for a check. No connections or anything.
DeletedUser_10198015

Mordred wrote:

also to everyone saying "it's rankable so it should be ranked", consider that bns are only human as well and would like to not burn out from accepting to many maps they don't like :D
FINALLY FOR GODS SAKE someone actually says this, it's so annoying i find that in the comments of that one ranked sotarks maps, they say "oh it's rankable so it should be totally ranked" yet they don't even know the whole true story of how to rank a map, literally. like cmon, can you please TRY to rank a map yourself before you even say "oh it's rankable, so it should be totally ranked"

Flowziee wrote:

Thirdly, there is no doubt that there's at least some preferential treatment (aka circlejerking or w/e you wanna call it).
This is what I'm not okay with. There has been cases where BNs do a Nom4Nom, or where BNs have a select few whose maps they'll always look at. I feel like this is extremely unfair to the general masses, that perhaps some people may have to work so much harder to get ranked maps than others. I get that preferential treatment exists, because the mappers involved are probably already pretty good at mapping, and in turn that allows for easy nominations. It's a win-win for both parties in this case, but that really crushes the hopes of many up-and-coming mappers. It's very discouraging to most people really, when other people have that privilege when they don't.
This is something completely the issue that I have aswell, it's so unfair, because you'll have to always work around with that like there's absolutely no way to deal with that, that's just literally how BNs is, and it sucks to literally look at them nominating each other maps, or nominating only this person's map each single time rather than the other, it's so discouraging like this person said. I get that this is the BN team, but this is literally not okay because that's just so unfair that everyone that doesn't have that ability to work around that. Which is the reason I absolutely do not like the BNs that much.

Tankuwi wrote:

Main issue about BN System is about ignoring most of EDM-maps bcause a lot of bns don't like these musics and prefer to check most of openings which are already ranked 10 times and more which causes butthurt or just disappointment in ranking system. The fact is osu needs more variety of genres of music to be played bcause nowadays new people join to play osu and leave it bcause of lack of edm musics. Even from 5-digit players there're a lot of players which are not playing for a really long time. And the main reason is osu has a tons of anime or japanese rocks/pops which are really annoying when u play it for a long time.
This is another of those reasons why i'm so discouraged about making other different genre music, because you're generally forced on anime, which is really popular in this game, osu!. however, i feel like if there's just not going to be other song that are not the same genre as anime, then this game wouldn't even have variety that much like this guy says. I literally don't wanna see the same anime song being ranked over 999 times in a freaking row, it's absolutely annoying that it just happens to be that way, and the main excuse for most BNs is that "oh well, my song preference is anime", like CMON. you can't go out of your way to go out of your comfort zone for music and try other music? are you kidding me?
TmacBoris
i have a suggestion how to solve the problem:

We should go back to star priority system.
Once mapper thinks his map is ready for bn check he updates the map with statement that it is ready for check.(should be WIP(not complete), pending(complete, but need some mods, not sure yet, etc.) options and this 3rd category). So you have 5 SP for hype, anyone can throw kudos to get +1 SP and every day in that category gives +10 SP. So if map is not checked for a long time it gets to the top. And BN will notice that map and check.

What they should do is check the map and if it's not ready change the status with some comments, for example like "It's not ready for rank because lowest difficulty should be Normal and there is only Insane" etc. And it gets cooldown to update for BN check. If it's ready then do mod or nominate.

If map is like 2-4 weeks at the top of the list it should become red and someone should be responsible to check that anyway. (idk how to do this.)

I think this idea can work with some improvements. So we don't have maps in graveyard waiting years to get bn.

And yeah we definitely need more BNs as number of mappers is increasing
Fisky
I've been mapping for a little bit over 2 years, recently gotten 6 months official mentoring by DTM9 Nowa, still no ranked maps. My goal has been to get a ranked map for a while, while I can just map a seasonal anime opening and get a "free" one that's not my goal, I want one to be at least sort of proud of. I tend to map high sr tech maps, which seems to be an area very few bns tend to push. There was one map I was close to ranking, 1st bn got kicked before he could push and 2nd wasn't interested after modding, kinda ruined my mood for that day .-. As I stated I map high sr tech which (I believe) makes it even more difficult for me to get any maps pushed but that is what I want to do.
Zelzatter Zero
My main problem here is not how I can't find BN, but rather how I can't do anything to push my maps further to Ranked section. Have been mapping for the lifespan of joining this game which is 3 years, having enough interaction with the community to the point that I am now being known for several nicknames ("mr. breakcore", "mr. Infinite Mint", "that furry mapper", etc.) for some people, but I can't even push any of my projects to ranked. One of my sets already has 2 BNs (maybe counted as 3 since one of people who hyped my map is now a BN), but when I tried to contact for a recheck, I recieved... nothing. No response, no reject nor accept, just nothing. I can't really know if they actually will remind themselves to recheck or just simply ignored me. My song choice nowadays are mostly are either furry covers or original song related to furries, makes it even harder to push since I doubt most BNs actually have the same song choice, let alone looking at my maps.
Moko
I think that some kind of rewards for ranked maps that were nominated by specific BNs will encourage more people to join BNG. It would increase quantity of BNs so it will solve some major problems like too many requests etc. Moreover, it will add some variety in BNs' musical taste (because some BNs won't nominate your map, no matter what UNLESS it's specified opening from specified anime...). osu! dev team keeps adding more and more featured artists and their works to "free to use" library songs, however, people tend to map next "(can you) understand me?" or "Yume Chizu" beatmapset. I DO NOT want to generalize all BNs BUT most of BNs would nominate maps I just mentioned than FA maps... I HIGHLY UNDERSTAND that you nominators are not robots and you have your musical tastes/preferences, I don't tell you to check tons of maps 24/7 but for our sake, give us more chances to ranked our maps, rejecting our requests only because they don't fit specific strict criterias are VERY VEEERY discouraging for new mappers... Especially if they make stuff that a lot of people actually love.
Dialect
i think the best way to solve this is to have fa's appeal to players. sure we have ricky, who's famous because of osu!, but i really feel bad for the other fa's. they're so excited to get their work in game, and some (like james landino) will make tracks specifically for osu!, and yet no one uses it
Come[Back]Home
Welp, as someone who has been a part of the mapping community for quite some time (8 years), let me add something here too.

The main issue Im seeing is:
There is a need for more BNs. I remember that back in 2015 it was hella easy to get your maps ranked but that was because there were enough BNs for the amount of maps ready for nomination. Nowadays there are just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many maps and not enough BNs to cover them all. I also feel like the whole ranking process becomes stricter too which is somewhat a hurdle. It feels like every week there is new shit added to the RC which makes BNs even more cautious about what to nominate and what not. And tbh, being a BN feels like a 2nd job (thats just what I heard from some people who used to be BNs). I mean, if youre at college or still at school then you do have enough time to keep on doing that, but once you have an actual time-consuming real job, time and motivation suddenly runs thin to properly do BN stuff in your freetime. (except of course if osu! is the only thing you do in your freetime, which aint healthy :( ). The only upside they have is that it is a bit easier for them to rank their own stuff. Overall still a shitty job.

To sum it up: Being a BN for free is just retarded compared to the amount of work they do, they should get some kind of compensation to make it feel rewarding. (and more BNs are needed)
Nikakis
sure make bns paid workers in the game so they can rank every rankable map that exists smileW
DeviousPanda
just my opinion on how to possibly fix the current struggles new mappers have when looking for bns

as part of what mordred says, bns being closed is a problem (although i cant speak much regarding that because ive been closed for a bit over a month now due to accepting alot of reqs at once)



honestly apart from a restructure of how the bng works the easiest way to have some sort of band-aid fix on the imbalance between open bns and rankable maps is to just have more bns

although not by lowering standards, but by having initiatives or projects just like the mapping mentorship program that can focus training up modding skill to BN standard



i will say that my experience trying to rank my first set was mostly luck, and it would be great to see something change so new mappers dont feel helpless/overwhelmed by finding bns
ColdTooth
Hi.

I wouldn't say I'm a new mapper. I've been exposed to mapping since late 2012, and have even managed to get a few of my maps ranked years ago. However, I am struggling to get my current work noticed. I simply thought I was just outdated from the newer stuff people enjoy, or I just didn't have enough experience in the field anymore.

But then I noticed that all I saw that was being ranked were just short maps, stuff shorter than 90 seconds, with multiple expert difficulties, and only one of the normals, hards, and insanes, and then their top difficulty. I saw those getting ranked, and I wanted to know why. I played them and I felt like I wasn't really understanding anything. Everytime I looked at any of time my brain started to hurt knowing there was absolutely no flow or shape, just felt like someone dropped their box of cheez-its and it's all over the floor.

(Not saying every map ranked nowadays is short, but for every good map ranked there are about 5 "tv size farm maps" ranked.)

And while me criticizing mapping is not the topic, I destined to look out for something else. I wanted to truly understand why their maps are getting the attention, and not mine. For one, I noticed that all of these mappers seem to have only two difficulties out of many by them, the rest by guest mappers. Usually they'd have a top difficulty, and maybe an insane or normal difficulty. I've noticed recently that a few mappers (not going to point fingers), are actually using the same people to map the same difficulty on different maps, like if I were to map an easy difficulty on one of my friend's maps for rank, I would do the same on their next map, and so on.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it sort of gave me something else to think about. I noticed that there is about the same group of people that nominate their map, usually after minimal modding to said map, where as mine usually reaches 3 or 4x more mods than their maps. Not really anything wrong with the same bns that nominate, but... it also seems like some BNs are either closed forever, but open for their friends. Mordred said something along those lines way above me, and I think he said it way better than I could, mentioning how experienced mappers still struggle to get their stuff ranked, especially now because I prefer trying to map stuff longer than 3 minutes, and almost no BN wants to help with that. I may have gotten some cringe songs ranked in the past, but I have managed to get a much more broader taste in music. EDM has been very fun to map in the past 2-3 years but that brings me up to the next point, that was already covered by another user.

osu! is a rhythm game. Rhythm can come from all sorts of music, country, rap, kpop even. They're not my jam, but I cannot close out the fact that they count as music. EDM and dubstep also count as music, but alot of BNs don't seem to enjoy modding tech or these genres. I felt demotivated after trying to find someone out there that wouldn't mind modding tech, and the few I came across to, were just closed for a long time. I felt like I wasn't progressing along, and that it would take a very long time to get something ranked, or I would have to try and just map tv size. I don't want to map that, I don't get alot of satisfaction mapping anime openings, or songs that have already been mapped multiple freaking times. (I'm looking at you Harumachi Clover and Chika Chika.) I'd also bring up that some artists get featured but very few of their songs get ranked or mapped, but other people have brought that up.

I feel like we need more BNs in the team. More specifically, more BNs that will actually mod other genres that the current team is lacking. We have plenty of mappers and modders that do tech and EDM, perhaps they should prove their worth and be accepted into the team. Or maybe the guidelines for the BNs need changes so that they can't just deny a genre because they don't like it. I'm not trying to blame anyone, I don't want to throw myself into the abyss and suddenly back out after making myself look like a fool. I'm trying to say that we need more diversity, other than all of the anime and tv-size songs out there. There's SO much more music out there, and with so many mappers, the BNs are overwhelmed and I feel bad for them since they must be overloaded with work, including their lives, which I say real life always comes first. We have to remember that these are REAL HUMANS trying their absolute best, and they just want to get through their life without alot of struggles. We all are humans, talking to each other online.

Overall, I just feel discouraged trying to get my maps ranked, or even finish more of the tech maps I've made by some of my favorite artists. The job of the BN is to get maps ranked that they think is quality. And I understand that people have their music tastes, but it can't hurt diving into the other genres in a rhythm game, especially if the map fits the ranking criteria and is very clean? There are some really good maps out there, and alot of people not BNs really enjoy their map, and would like to see it ranked. Even if you feel like it's more effort than needed, it means it was put together with meaning and care, instead of a jumbled, messed up puzzle board.

I'm not asking for people like me to have 90 ranked maps a year, I wouldn't find time to get 6 ranked a year. We'd like to have some recognition, giving us a little more hope and motivation to get something else ranked or mapped a few months down the line. There's a few other points I could bring up, but they were already talked about, those posts definitely gave more thought other than me giving an unaccented opinion and my thoughts on this situation. Someone said going back to the SP system might help, but I don't think it will help, considering there will still be maps that might not be good quality but loved to death by alot of people. Infact I'm not really sure how we could solve this situation, other than "just hire more BNs". It might help, but with the growing number of new mappers and experienced mappers alike, perhaps the system just needs some tweaking.

Sorry if this is long and hard to read. I tried to not call people out or make myself look like an idiot (even though I am one), but I just wanted to get my opinion out.

Edit: I wrote this all in 2 hours with alot of thinking, and three posts have been made in that time.
JayBone
few people pointed out that the number of bns are low and i have to agree. the overall number of bns just feels too low for the number of mappers, at least for standard. i think the main problem comes from how little the incentives are for modding maps, and with fewer modders comes fewer new bns.

there's only a few reasons i think that makes modding worth a mappers time: they're modding to get enough activity to apply for bn, they're modding their friend's maps to help them reach rank, or they're modding songs/artists they like.

one incentive that got taken away when modding v2 became the norm was a use for kudosu to use as star priority, by replacing it with the hype system. kudosu only shows how much modding activity you've done over time; outside of that, it's just a number on your profile that has no value or use. the hype system in my opinion doesn't give the map any additional value once it gets past 5 hypes. considering any person, whether they map/mod or not, get 10 hypes each 7 day cycle makes the hype system feel completely useless in actually helping a map get pushed to rank.

i think if there was a usage for kudosu in modding v2, mappers would be more incentivized to go out of their way to mod maps, not only to help other people's maps with their mods, but to use the kudosu gained from modding as a way to help push their own/others mapset. if someone is more incentivized to mod, they'll potentially want to become a bn so they can directly push mapset they believe are ready for ranking.
IOException
I've been mapping for around 5+ years, and been actively mapping in ranked over the past couple years. Here's the way I see things. There's 2 different issues here:

1. New mappers with no existing reputation can't get their maps ranked.
2. New mappers with no existing reputation and maps of rankable quality can't get their maps ranked.

The first one is just a result of overestimation of a mappers' own skill. I see this multiple times when being asked for feedback and then being asked if the map is "rankable". Sure, it technically follows RC but no I'd not put that in the ranked section. If you take a peek into #modreqs you see the same thing, many mappers asking for BN reqs have tons of mods on a fundamentally broken map. Ultimately, many newer mappers don't really have a way to judge how good their map is. These are the kind of things any more experienced mapper should be able to do, and doesn't require wasting BN time to say why it's bad.

The second issue is maps of genuine rankable quality can't get ranked either, where nothing is wrong with the map and if a different mapper (say, a BN) were to take over the mapset and push it they would have no problem getting it ranked easily. This is where ranking is a bit of a different game from mapping. Unfortunately, one of the best ways to get your profile/userpage noticed by BNs is befriending them and shitposting a lot in Discord servers they are also in, then sliding in your maps later, or offering yourself up as a gd slave for them in hopes of your maps getting into ranked that way. This is also why BNs usually see a huge spike in number of people trying to add them when they join BNG and a huge plummet when they resign from BNG. Ultimately, this problem can't be solved unless the ranking system is changed drastically.

Also, I'd like to bring up the issue of B4B. Pretty much every mapper who keeps up with mapping events knows what this is; BNs nominate other BN maps in exchange for their own maps being nominated back. I think this is a huge problem that needs to be addressed if this issue is going anywhere; new mappers can't get shares of BN time because those BNs are too busy engaging in B4B exchanges with other BNs. This raises the question "should BNs have to devote time to new mappers at all?" Because ultimately if this question isn't addressed, then this will only become more and more common.

If we /are/ talking about changing the ranking system drastically tho, I think the best way to solve this is with some kind of tiered nomination system where tier 1 nominators are the equivalent of BNs today and can actually push maps to qualified and tier 2 nominators nominate maps to be looked at by tier 1 nominators, and tier 3 nominators nominate maps to be looked at tier 2, and so on. This way each higher tier requires less experience and you can expand the number of nominators in higher tiers that way without sacrificing qualified section quality. (just a random thought so obviously needs heavy revamp before being a viable change, for ex. pushing ur map thru 3 or more tiers of nominations is a pain in the ass)

I'd also like to add that having a queue or going back to SP won't solve htis problem either. The queue just gets infinitely long and reviewers will still end up looking for names or other things because let's face it, checking maps is a pain in the ass. Someone has to do the work at the end of the day.
DeviousPanda

IOException wrote:

If we /are/ talking about changing the ranking system drastically tho, I think the best way to solve this is with some kind of tiered nomination system where tier 1 nominators are the equivalent of BNs today and can actually push maps to qualified and tier 2 nominators nominate maps to be looked at by tier 1 nominators, and tier 3 nominators nominate maps to be looked at tier 2, and so on. This way each higher tier requires less experience and you can expand the number of nominators in higher tiers that way without sacrificing qualified section quality. (just a random thought so obviously needs heavy revamp before being a viable change, for ex. pushing ur map thru 3 or more tiers of nominations is a pain in the ass)
wasnt there a tiered nomination system like this a while back that just didnt work because of how useless the bottom tier bns felt?

apart from that i agree with what youve said in that there are two types of cases that should be split here - mappers overestimating their own maps/not knowing if the maps are rankable, and genuinely rankable maps not getting ranked

the first type could be dealt with by implementing proper ways for newer mappers to be able to tell if their maps are at the baseline quality of rankable or not (idk how this would work tho) and the second type just needs more bns (or more active bns) to push the maps that deserve it
Endaris
I'm not really a new mapper, nor a mapper at all really. It has been a side thing that I occasionally picked up for a few weeks and dropped again over the years. As a result I lost motivation to finish the majority somewhere in the middle but there's one map I brought to a state that I would definitely consider worth ranking.
Piling up mods from about 20 people, remapping things, creating a storyboard, reaching out to new players for playtests...to a state where I truly think that the set is no worse than the average ranked map.

So far I've posted the set in at least 6 different BN queues in forums + tried to get it out through different channels, have submitted it from day 1 of last year's christmas queue (it's a christmas map) and I get basically no reaction from the people who would be able to nominate it.

There are 2 ways to go from here:
Either I advertise my map much more aggressively and contribute to the massive influx of non-channeled requests that burns out BNs.
Or I stay true to my current approach and only request through the publicly available channels aka the Modding Queue subforum.

I'm vaguely aware of the existence of an intransparent network of discord servers that apparently accounts for a great part of modding and nomination activity done. Maybe entering these "circles" is the only way after all. Even though you need to be in the right discords at the end of the day...the german mapping discord is completely dead at least and presenting my map there didn't give any results at all.

The frustrating experience at the end of the day is seeing maps in qualified with mods only from the 2 nominating BNs with a problematic and unchecked storyboard...I get it, I'd also help my friends out but one cannot help to feel wronged after engaging in hours on hours of M4M and still not finding anyone or rather not even getting any response. Essentially I've given up at this point. Apparently I need to become Tochi- and start a SB4Nomination queue or something ridiculous like that.
Corne2Plum3
I'm a NOOB mapper, and I can not get 2 nominations for my map: beatmapsets/1136696#osu/2375910 I'll talks about my experience about this map (the only who can ranked) and my feelings about the system with my english who sucks. I have also read previous posts.

Point 1: I get more than 100 mods in this map by 17 modders (including 2 BN who modded before the map get 5 hypes), and I've 5 hypes in the mapset. But I can not get nominations. The problem is to find BN. To find BN I used modding queue but it's the lottery, and I searched BN in Mapper Guild website. But the problem, 80-90% are closed to mods (or mods only their friends)... I have the impression some mappers just farms kudosu to be mapper and mod and nominate only maps of their friends or the songs of their favorite anime... By reading posts above me, the number to mappers augment but not the number of BN. There is not enough BN. Then active BN recieve too many request and can not check all maps (they are humans, don't forget this)... We need more BN. And I don't want to talk about persons who paid BN to get nominated...

Point 2: A another problem I see is the too small variety of ranked. There especially (too many?) anime songs or japanese songs or rock. It's because there is some BN they are closed about genre of the songs. Some BN ignore EDM/dubstep because they dislike this style of music. And I can understand have preference, but it's a valid reason to ignore dubstep or tech because they didn't like this? Osu! is a game who everyone can create his map with the song is like and everyone should have his chance to rank his map, whatever his musical preferecnces. Where are EDM/dubstep maps? Where are songs in [insert your language except if it's japanese]? There is too many genres who are under represented... Me who don't really like anime songs and prefer electronic and dubstep songs, it's really hard to find BN.

I don't criticize all BN, because some BN do really good works. For exemple, the 2 BN who mod my map do interesting and pertinant mods and tips. But they really to few BN, and some BN are closed about variety of songs... We do should someting to have more ranked maps and more variety of songs. About my map, I get a lot of positives comments and improvements, but he can not get nominations. It's because my map is unrankable or really sucks? Or it's because there is a problem with the nomination system?

Sorry for the long destruction of english language and for the pile of non-interesting text.
Bibbity Bill
as a bn, the problem is mostly just amount of bns and the amount of songs that get asked per day. there's by far too many mappers who are either not 100% ready that end up asking a bn that doesn't have any free time left. so what happens is the bn goes and mods the experienced mapper who has less issues in their maps since they know the mapper won't take half their day to do a bn check on. hence why there's so many of the same names in qualified and why people think there's a bunch of circlejerking in the bng. the only solution that would work is by increasing the number of bns that actively want to nominate beatmaps. but it's near impossible to solve the solution since the BN app standards can't be lowered in the current system and the amount of new modders being capable of hitting the standards are slim to none. and what happens as a consequence of this is that there is too many bns who either are closed 90% of the time due to having to having to take the blunt of the maps for the month, while only other bns only icon 3 maps a month due to them not wanting to make osu their sole focus in life since if they took more they would be dedicating hours to osu each week.


what i think should be changed for this scenario is mostly just tweak the current bn system a bit by having bn app standards be lower for modders who modded more during their period of applying. as like if they cover the majority of issues in maps instead of a practically perfect app they would get a chance at bn. since it would allow more people willing to nominate more maps to alleviate pressure on bns who might not have as much free time. the numbers of maps you modded for your app period are all right there before you apply so i doubt such a system would be that hard to implement for nats to see while they judge your app. i get people might farm kudosu on multiple maps to inflate their app numbers, but i genuinely feel like those people would be obvious since their apps submitted would be really obviously terrible and a quick mod history search would probably show that too.

tldr: more bns required or more somehow make the current bng more active to solve this issue
Liiraye
Something I think worth exploring is why everyone is closed most of the time. Would increasing the BN pool to 200 even do anything if 90% of them are gonna be closed doing nom4noms with other bns?

I'm not saying everyone is doing that, but I think more information about modding habits would help in making a decision in what to do going forward. Data on how many bn4bn/friend mods a BN does on average contra how many maps they reject because they're busy, stuff like that.

Not holding any position on this until we have stats, but I see people talk about it a lot here.

Somewhere along the line I think the osu staff should make a decision on how they want their game handled, should it mainly incite a bn4bn environment to rank maps or an actual volunteer job, ranking the maps of everyone at least somewhat equally.

I have to say I really appreciate the mapper guild's modding hub, I've wanted something like that for a long time. Though I'm afraid it's going to get overwhelmed with requests where only a few of the BN's pick maps from there, and a lot others mod on their own accord. If you (staff) really want to solve this issue you need transparency and numbers to locate the root problem.
DeviousPanda
in response to how many bns are closed at a specific time - its always going to be skewed because some bns like to take a large chunk of mods at a single time and then close while they work through that - and so i wouldnt say for sure that those bns are doing a worse job than bns that are perpetually open but deny most reqs

(both methods work its just things shouldnt be judged solely on how many bns are open at a specific time)
Liiraye

DeviousPanda wrote:

in response to how many bns are closed at a specific time - its always going to be skewed because some bns like to take a large chunk of mods at a single time and then close while they work through that - and so i wouldnt say for sure that those bns are doing a worse job than bns that are perpetually open but deny most reqs

(both methods work its just things shouldnt be judged solely on how many bns are open at a specific time)
I'm not commenting on their efficiency right now, just that every time I look at the list, theres a 70-90% of them "closed". This has been a thing for me since I started going for ranks in 2012/2013.

While my analysis was only of today showing these numbers, this is not news to osu. If in general most BN's are closed and the ones open have very strict criterias or get overwhelmed, what are you to believe as a new mapper trying to find a BN? It's not for nothing that the impression of regular mappers is one where BN's are hard to find.

The numbers are probably fluctuating up and down in different periods, if someone wants to keep track of every bn for a year be my guest lol, maybe then we will truly know how many are closed at any given time in general.
Pandize
TL:DR: A better submission process that allows us to find the right BN for us, and a bit more evenly distributed BN group regarding song genres and map genres.

I've been mapping for 5 years now and got my first ranked map back in 2017. As of recently, with all of the work I've put into a few of my maps, and it feels like nobody really cares or wants to help me get them submitted.

My map BARRICADE was a pretty solid set with a nice collab top dif that really fit the song. Even though BNs would say it's a solid difficulty, they wouldn't like modding/bubbling because of my song choice or they're busy. It feels like I have to stick to a certain genre to even get a chance to get something ranked.

With 90+ beatmaps in graveyard at this point, I just wish some of them could have reached ranked without having to PM most BNs and get met with "I'm busy." or "I don't like the song."

My map Jefe, was another mapset I worked on for about a year or so before having to give up on ranking. It contained very quick sliders and was polished a ton over the year. With 50+ mods/changes to the map in the discussion, it never saw ranked/qualified because the BNs were scared to bubble it. They felt like it was too risky is what I was told.

I wanted to say I know that BNs are usually pretty busy or feel overworked, but I feel a better system for the BNs is needed rather than a fix like "more BNs." I've always wanted to suggest this.

vvvv
Can we please have BNs choose their favorite genres of maps/songs somehow so they don't get met with a bunch of submissions they don't like? Just a nice organized way to submit a map for bubbling where we can do a short description of what our map contains and a few multiple choice selections that will help BNs get more submissions they like.

REAPER - BARRICADE
Genre: Drum n' Bass
Map Style: Tech
Length: 1:50
Short Desc: Light tech map, pretty safe. The song is a little repetitive, and it's shown in the way it's mapped, but with a collab on top dif, it makes it refreshing to play the whole map.

Just a system where we can see which BN would be right for us to submit to would be perfect. As for an example with BARRICADE. A BN that likes the genre Drum n' Bass, enjoys a Techy map, and likes a short song. Then a list appears with BNs who have those preferences. Instead of blind submitting or having to do research on the person your submitting you, you can easily get your maps submitted after all of the work you've put into making them.
^^^^

I've been upset enough to rant here and there, I just want my 5 years of work to be shown to more people. I love mapping, I still do it! I have just completely stopped trying to get ranked maps at this point and just map for the fun of it. If there was a better way to get more genres evenly ranked, easier submissions, faster replies, more BNs, etc... I'd love to start trying again. At this point I'm just exhausted.

My last ranked map was 2 over years ago.
lewski

Pandize wrote:

Just a nice organized way to submit a map for bubbling
https://bn.mappersguild.com/modrequests
Rei Hakurei
Ok let's see,
For me myself who had gone hiatus for several years due to several reasons, let me point some problems here.

Disclaimer, I may not really follow on BN/QAT/NAT things as there are things I can't handle around 2015 and so on.

tl;dr do those old mappers who had hard time of ranking maps should get prioritized? Seriously, I don't want to put much hope but at least let me enjoy leaderboards to the world not via Guest Diffs. Of course quality is matter, hence why I restarted on doing this again.

For me, looking for mods and being able to mod someone's is a good experience, how to improve their map and get my map improved. There's this certain queue, that have a BAT and a normal user, just because I denied some of nazi suggestion of their mod, they just say about "you won't get ranked for this", that's rather hurting me off and leaving a domino effect that makes another BAT getting mad at me for being too childish on that time and does not leave any kind of review to the map itself. The point I'm stopped seeking mods and just map what I wanted.

I feel like those people have gone but, for now? I'm fairly confused with how things are supposed to... I heard from my friend about modding quality problem, and it's better to ask people directly over the queue for some reason. Even it got rejected, but still it's a thing that I recently experienced, looking for mods for my new mapset things.

Well, I rather want to start over from my old problem that makes me had to left osu! and leave a long lasting scar. I know getting asked by random people is creeping out, which makes me to toggle out /nopm on certain time. However, the problem in here is the amount of BN, like I don't know, the one I can trust, the one I want to look out, feels not that much, but do they have time? We don't know about that. Also, I know I'm a picky person, and I can tell some modders are picky too, that's rather understandable, more like is M4M the only solution to overcome such problem? I want to start modding again but yeah, I don't want to get pushed so hard recently.
Corne2Plum3

Reforms Expert wrote:

I can't ever get the attention and help I need

All these new mappers can get there maps ranked and they get countless mods why can't I
Do you already try Modding queues?
Test 05
Wondering can I really find someone to mod in #modreqs? XD Don't know how it works
pimp
new mappers that are still learning how to use the editor don't need help from bns in particular, there are many things they can learn on their own, interacting with other new mappers, normal mappers with some experience then eventually the experienced mappers...
bns generally prefer to spend time working on decent quality maps and that's what they are supposed to do anyway.

for decent mappers with no reputation, it's what a lot of people said above, too many mappers and very few bns, we have to work, study, we also have other hobbies.

the process of joining beatmap nominators is very tiring and failure can easily crush capable people's will to retry because it only takes a few subjective concerns for the NAT to decide that you are not ready. plus, once you are denied you are left with a semi-automated response from them which they will sumarize their subjective reasons to deny you a chance and you have no choice but to grind for another 3 months if your will to try again was not completely crushed yet.

I've been a bn for two years but only a few months ago bns started to evaluate candidates and it made me remember how easily capable people can be denied a chance into bng. i remember the first few evaluations i made, there was two candidates that i genuinely found more capable of providing meaningful help on maps of the current meta than I could. after approving them i got very disappointed to know that they were denied(split votes)... so i realized that the REAL purpose of the bn app is to deny as much candidates as possible, if you know what i mean. i've been playing by the rules since then, but i do think the criteria to approve candidates is too subjective.

failing bn app doesn't necessarily mean you are not capable of doing bn work, you might simply have failed to cause an impression that meets their subjective standards... i failed to meet their subjective standards several times in the past, i didn't magically became a better modder, especially now that the meta is completely different from my comfort zone.
i'm sure that are many people like me in that sense and i dislike the fact that they are denied and are put in the same position as bad modders who applied for bn.
i believe these people who almost made it into bng could be given some kind of quick mentoring and eventually be given a probation chance...

becoming bn is one thing, keeping your bn status requires reasonable activity, behavior and most importantly, few nomination resets as possible. everyone make mistakes from times to times but you gotta worry about your reputation, otherwise you will have more chances of making huge mistakes and going to probation/being kicked.

that's about what i can say in bns defense.

it's really disappointing to see certain bns doing nothing but N4N, nominating maps of their friends and famous mappers.
i'm no role model BN or super active but at least i try my best to balance picking maps that i enjoy, picking maps that i think the community will enjoy, trying to help different mappers and promoting new mappers with zero ranked maps.
unfortunately circlejerk is real and has been for years but apparently the people who could do something about it are okay with it.
in my opinion, something should be done about unfair bns.
qwt

Corne2Plum3 wrote:

Reforms Expert wrote:

I can't ever get the attention and help I need

All these new mappers can get there maps ranked and they get countless mods why can't I
Do you already try Modding queues?
ALL I DO IS POST MY MAPS THERE
changli
A bit of background about me, before I begin. I am a three-time Community Mentorship Program reject who has been mapping for roughly 4 years, and while I have no ranked maps, I currently have a map with 1/2 nominations.

Introduction

My map with 1/2 nominations is part of the story, but we can't start there. This story begins with a single catalyst -- I had begun playing osu, and I was hoping for a specific song to be mapped. I checked the forums and the reddit, and saw a big warning: do not request a song to be mapped. Under this, there was a little explanation saying that mapping was a time consuming process, and I should try mapping it myself.

So I did.

I find that blurb about mapping being a time-consuming process extremely ironic now, because, as a mapper, the time consumption is almost all in the learning process. I can shit out 30 seconds of playable mapping in like 30 minutes, which drops to about 5-10 seconds per 30 minutes if I'm trying to make something conceptual and interesting. I could map an entire hour-long album in less time than it would take that newbie to learn to map. Nowadays, requesting songs isn't uncommon, and I wish it hadn't been back then, because learning to map has been one of the worst choices of my life.

I have put easily a thousand hours into the editor, and searching through all of my maps across all three usernames yields just shy of 200 projects. Some of these I have mapped multiple difficulties for, the majority I have mapped about a single kiai's worth. I have spent nearly half a decade pouring the vast majority of my creativity and free time into a skill that is, in essence, completely useless.

I now use mapping for creative expression and the community at large has decided that this form of mapping is largely invalid. Thus, if I want to see the members of the community's plays on my maps, I am caught between a rock and a hard place -- I can either hope that my maps end up in a section meant for maps the community loves, or make extreme compromises for a section that has an extremely restrictive meta with a new veto system that enforces the meta heavily.

Section 1 -- The Veto System

That's just one thing I want to bring up today -- the veto system. As someone who has had a map pre-emptively vetoed, I am totally dismayed that vetoes have devolved even further since my own interaction. I wrote a response to a veto I was recently dismayed with that I think parts of are relevant to this discussion. I have changed the BN's name to BN, to protect privacy, because this is not about the individual BN, who I think is a lovely person, this is about a fundamentally flawed system that has been (unfortunately) normalized.

Response
Once again, I am dismayed with the heavy handed vetoing over subjective issues to enforce a meta that is becoming far too common. You claim further discussion isn't relevant because the mapper no longer wants to pursue ranked, but I think that it makes the question of "why doesn't the mapper want to pursue ranked status on a mapset polished enough to make it into the qualified section"

The answer to this is a complete imbalance of power. Once the veto is placed, the map is no longer safe, and inherently a risk to the BNs who nominated it.

Does the mapper want to risk having their creative opinions deemed invalid in front of the whole community?

On the other side, a veto can be placed freely, and if the veto doesn't pass mediation, it doesn't really come up in the BN review at all.

This creates an inherent pressure -- either conform to the meta, or stay out of the ranked section.

This one is particularly flagrant, because the mapper pointed out several times all of his concerns were not addressed, and BN responded with something I think was important to this discussion.

"I really don't have the energy to write a 5000 word essay on why I think whistle kicks are bad, I feel like I explained my stance well enough already"

The irony of this statement is that BN's veto shows that BN feels strongly enough about this to bar it from ranked, but does not feel strongly enough about barring it from ranked to even reply to all of the mapper's points. I believe that this should automatically raise flags about the veto itself. Spoes is ignoring how much tireless efforts the mapper spent defending his creative vision, and using their status as a BN to elevate her opinion to equal footing without actually defending it properly.

From this, I want to pull out and discuss one specific section. "Once the veto is placed, the map is no longer safe, and inherently a risk to the BNs who nominated it. Does the mapper want to risk having their creative opinions deemed invalid in front of the whole community? On the other side, a veto can be placed freely, and if the veto doesn't pass mediation, it doesn't really come up in the BN review at all. This creates an inherent pressure -- either conform to the meta, or stay out of the ranked section."

Lately, many BNs have been placing vetoes on maps over tiny, subjective issues, like their choice of specific hitsounds in certain sections, particularly maps that have done something outside of the meta box. Previously, vetoes were not something that were handed out left and right, and were typically reserved for edge cases. Unfortunately, these kind of vetoes are now considered "QAH work", which incentivizes BNs to create huge problems out of subjective choices, in a bid to rise to the NAT. This really sucks for mappers, because it leads to a larger problem.

The Ranked Compromise, Part 1

I've worked on my mapping for such a long period of my life now, that ranking a map is extremely important and special to me. When I was a brand new mapper, I recieved a piece of advice from an experienced mapper that I really took to heart: don't approach BNs until you've made something you're proud of.

So I didn't.

My first attempt to rank something seriously came more than two years after I started mapping. I had created something I was proud of, and I continue to believe to this day was a good map. Unfortunately, the map was pre-emptively vetoed, by a BN I had approached nearly six months prior asking for feedback. I was told the map was bad, and when I asked for more feedback on why that was, I was told no.

After a BN had checked and rechecked my map, the BN who didn't have time to give me feedback while the map was in the early modding stages found the time to give me extensive feedback, and place what they said would automatically become a veto if it was qualified. I was caught in a veto system issue -- my first BN was retiring soon, and not interested in going through arbitration. My second BN mostly decided to back off. I gave up.

Sidebar: The Loved Section

That map now has about 100 favorites, and has racked up nearly 250 plays in the two weeks since unranked maps have started counting plays. Unfortunately, despite my frequent agitation and desire for the map to be loved, the loved team didn't check it to be approved for pending for nearly nine months, until I pointed out to them that several maps that had been mapped after my map had been submitted to loved had already made it through voting and were in the loved category. I was told this was an "accident". Still, my map was ignored soundly in pending, and finally, disgusted with the category's lack of quality control (maps like this which was a literal first map) and completely and totally snubbing me, I went to have a conversation with a member of the loved team.

I explained that I was deeply dismayed. "To me, it feels like "community popularity" is a term thrown around to cleverly disguise "captain's interests". Captains pick a few terrible maps that get hundreds of favorites due to song choice, a few "loved staple" mappers, like arles stuff and akali maps, and other than that, cherry-pick whatever they feel like. Essentially, we have handed leaderboard granting power to a few specific people who are not even elected by the community or a quality control board"

I was told that loved was about what the community loves, and I realized I fundamentally disagree with the category. From a post I wrote: "Is what we really want true player community representation? Univocally, the most popular loved maps are either memes, trashy jump practices, or hype songs, typically with low quality, low difficulty mapping. I don't think this is a category that should exist as a valid form of getting a leaderboard at all, with the way they are coveted in this game. You can make all the arguments you want about "community driven game" and "this is what the community wants", but I don't think that catering to delibarately low quality content is a healthy strategy at all. These maps belong in the graveyard for a reason -- they are not the kind of content that is deserving of a spotlight. They gather popularity on their own -- why would we spotlight bad content?"

I also disagree that the kind of mass appeal hype of low quality, low difficulty maps and meme maps is actually organic, because many of these players shouldn't really qualify as part of the community. These 800k players are very unlikely to actually stick around in the community for any extended period of time, nor are they likely to interact with the more permanent community or contribute to the game. To me, they represent an unsustainable part of the playerbase that doesn't actually participate in the community, and giving them an entire section like lived is a horrible idea.

I understand many people do not feel the same way, and as one mapper I look up to greatly said, expanding content keeps a game fresh, not taking it away. Therefore, instead of advocating for the abolition of the loved category, I worked on an effort to create a third category for mappers who have contributed to the community. It has remained up on the github with no action for just a few months shy of two years.

Now, how this whole sidebar relates to the ranked section issues at hand -- by rewarding mappers for modding, we not only incentivize BNs to mod more maps, we also push new mappers toward modding as well as mapping. This means more modders, and more future BNs. I really wish this proposal would be seriously examined by the osu! team.

Context

A bit more about my personal context becomes necessary before I move on to the ranked compromise's second half. Backtracking to before my editor time has even eclipsed 100 hours, despite my triple rejection from the mapping academy, I continued to map because of excellent, helpful, awesome people who helped me out of the kindness of their heart. DTM9 Nowa looked at all my terrible maps and gave me feedback and advice, Emilia timed maps for me when my offsets were always hundreds of milliseconds off, and fanzhen0019 took me as an informal mentee when all I had to show for myself were some genuinely terrible maps and the label three time academy reject. I wouldn't be here today without them.

The Ranked Compromise, Part 2

Now I'm here. Coconut Mall has one nomination, and a second potential nominator who has checked and now rechecked the map. I didn't get here by working hard to improve my mapping as much as I got here by asking literally every BN open for a four week period except for two -- two BNs who I know do not like my mapping style. I elected not to waste their time. Furthermore, I managed to ask 12 closed BNs. For my efforts, I managed to find 2 BNs -- but one later decided they were no longer interested in nominating it upon taking a second look after I waited over a month.

I realized at this point it was a very a real possibility that my second attempt at the ranked section may not be fruitful either. I ended up finding an interested NAT when I realized I couldn't find a second BN that would be interested in my map.

Actually, that's a total lie. I easily found about half a dozen BNs who liked the map or told me they hoped it got ranked, but were not interested in nominating the map due to being uncomfortable with the complexity and style. One BN even told me the map was nice, but they thought it might get vetoed because I mapped it. QAH "work" needs easy targets, like complex and interesting maps mapped by a mapper with no ranked maps!

Now, I'm stuck with another ranked compromise. This second recheck has made it apparent to me that I cannot get my map qualified without compromising my creative vision. I had responded to every mod, rejecting about half and accepting about half, but it seems I have a fundamental difference of opinion with my second nominator on New Comboing.

I know New Combos are not a big issue, in the grand scheme of a map, and I will definitely make the choice of a small compromise on my creative vision in order to rank this mapset, which I originally uploaded November of last year and I have worked toward ranking for nearly 80% of that time. However, this leads me to the big point -- the ranked compromise. My ranked compromise, as a new mapper who dares to map outside the meta, is to spend 8 months of persistant work to rank a version of my map that is more to my nominator's taste rather than my own. What other choice do I have?

This is just the reality of the ranked section for a new mapper. I did make a spreadsheet of every BN in order to keep track of openings and criteria. I have read the rules of every single BN's page. I have checked their page nearly every day for a month. I will be ranking a version of my map that is more to my nominator's taste rather than my own (if it does rank).

I have had so much energy and passion sucked out of me by this process I don't feel any desire to pursue ranking another map, ever again. I hope that changes. I actually made it a goal to become a BN at the beginning of this ranking process, and began getting mod reviews from my first nominator, and studying all available content on modding for the BN test. My drive has been so utterly drained by this process I just stopped modding.

Thoughts on the BNG

There are so many problems with the BNG I could probably double my word count just trying to talk about all of them. Why does a map need two nominators, but any single BN may place a subjective veto, for example. Instead, I will try to tackle the root causes of these issues -- and even then I'm sure I won't get all of them.

In literally every other large, volunteer-powered community, privileges come with responsibilities as well. In osu, these powers are handed out more as a reward that BNs may do whatever they choose with. Minimum activity requirements have absolutely no clauses about accepting requests from the public. For all the NAT cares, you can close for a year as long as you meet the activity requirements by 2nding safe beatmaps from well-known mappers.

I feel like the greatest con ever pulled in this game was when Beatmap Nominators managed to hide behind the excuse "we're just volunteers!" to shield themselves from any real criticism. Of course beatmap nominators are volunteers. Of course they are people with real lives and work. That does not mean that you should hold a community volunteer position of power without any responsibility to the community at all. Right now, BNs are given carte blanche to do whatever they want with their powers. I do not think BNs should be given community powers if they do not contribute to the community. The fact that we still have a steady flow of ranked maps does not detract from that fact that now more than ever, 80 to 90% of the BNG largely has their doors shut to the public.

A small anecdote: I waited for one BN who I am even mutualed with to open for months by staying up to date with their discord, and when they missed their own deadline to open, I asked about it, which they told me meant they needed more time before they opened. Once they finally opened, I sent in a request, and recieved a mass denial message saying that they were "overwhelmed with requests" despite promising to look at each request that followed their rules on their userpage. I have no idea when they will reopen. Prior to this "opening" that they took exactly zero maps from, they had been closed to the public for over 100 days. This year, they have modded 45 maps, of which 32 (more than 70%) have come from other BNs or NATs. One of the 13 non-nominator maps was mapped by the girlfriend of an NAT member, with a GD from him. From what I know, literally all of these 45 were requested outside of a public opening.

I also wanted to talk about risk, and how the system also actively punishes BNs who do their best to help the community, especially BNs who rank interesting, non-meta maps, but I can't find the strength. This post is well over 3000 words, and I am exhausted. Hopefully, I will find some time to edit that in tomorrow, along with some more general thoughts on the BNG and some concluding statements.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I know this is a lot already.
DeletedUser_6709840
I wouldn't call myself a new mapper but there are problems that have existed since I started ranking maps in osu!catch that also exist in osu!std:

I started mapping in late 2015, not long after I started playing. The editor was not beginner-friendly and I had to learn everything I know now from scratch (until a year or so later after my first ranked map that mapping mentorship was a thing). I keep seeing the same problems in STD that I saw in CTB:

1. perma-closed BNs/exclusive mapping "circlejerks"
2. No true way to judge the quality of your map because modders specialize in different types of maps, leading to newer mappers unsure whether their map IS of ranking quality.

I started mapping STD seriously in 2019 but I did have an advantage from knowing people in STD who were BNs at the time, so I had a foot in the door to steer me in the right direction to go with mapping. However, I map songs that are on the fringes of genres/mapping styles. I've mapped tech maps for anime songs, I've done the PP meta jumps for non-anime songs. I really don't have a set style so navigating WHO I should ask for BN reqs is difficult to navigate.

Example, as someone mentioned before, you'll go to a BNs userpage and over half the BNG is closed. Everyone who is open doesn't cover the type of experimentation I have been doing. It's not even necessarily a problem with BNs being shy about rejecting maps either; I have one BN who needs another BN to clear my spread usage for a map but when they recommended another BN, that BN wants nothing to do with my map after modding it. There are even cases where there are things that BNs and modders will bring up on maps that are "problems" but they're not necessarily unrankable. BNs are supposed to look for unrankable issues, not argue over subjective matter that doesn't affects a map's play-ability (example, getting 9208343928 blanket modding points on a map that doesn't focus on blanketing, or asking you to copy paste sliders for "consistency" when it adds nothing to even the visual aesthetic of the map).

This is where I believe that either the number of nominators on the team is either too low or requirements for modding activity should be more enforced. Even specifically recruiting BNs who nominate certain map types and genres.

I understand that BNs are human and I understand the reasoning of why people think mapping circlejerks are more common than they are, but there is a legitimate problem with the availability of BNs right now and has been an issue for years. There isn't an actual problem with getting mods from non-BNs once you know the right modding queues to check and know who to ask but... yeah, BNG is too small to accommodate their own numbers + the hundreds of mappers already in the community. There's not many resources to specifically TRAIN people to be prepared to be a BN either either than mapping mentorship (which can get really exclusive since the list of people who want to be a mentor is low too)

lewski wrote:

Pandize wrote:

Just a nice organized way to submit a map for bubbling
https://bn.mappersguild.com/modrequests
The mod requests thing for the BNG is a joke, at best. With the amount of BNs in the community and the perma-closed issue, it's pointless even to request using that. Pandize made a good point in making a submission system that IS better for people who are looking for BNs specifically and not just feedback.

I also believe there should be a sub-section of the mentorship program for people who are on the fringe of "hey, I can map and mod decently but I specifically want to learn how to exactly be a BN". I'm not talking about probationary BN-ship either, just a program to prepare people and recruit people to become BN more actively to help solve the perma-closed issue
Kojio
The biggest problem regarding this is, activity and availability. I once did a Twitter post regarding availability of open bns on a random week and it resulted in extremely low numbers. It's understandable if a bn takes a break but at the same time being closed for a whole month for no reason is extremely bad. We have maybe 9 bns open most of the time with 2 bns being permanently open.
Also communication and bns standards are Realy bad. You have bns with to many rules to follow befor you can even concider asking for a mod req. If i habe to fill up a checklist of 20 things i need to do befor requesting then it's toxic and it scares new mappers alot. We have bns that downright refuse any kind of communication or don't have any way to req maps. We also have bns that mainly circle jerk. I don't mind circle jerk i see it as part of the reward being a bn but if you have 10 unique nomination with 9 of them being bns or close friends then there is a problem and nats should concider this in evaluations.
bossandy
My first map took me two years to rank.
I have known a lot of mappers during this time.
Many of them later became MAT/BAT (now called BN).

At the end of 2012 there was a chance to become a MAT for me.
In my impression, there was no punishment mechanism at that time.
So the standard for bubbles (now called nominations) was much lower than it is now.
But because of the BN system restructuring, I left MAT
And because of the university, I didn’t touch mapping for many years.
It was not until 2018 that I suddenly wanted to push a map and then I tried to modding maps and reapplied for BN after years.
The result was also passed.

circlejerk is just like ordinary M4M, but its identity is different.
One day when you become BN, you will also do M4M with other BNs
This is absolutely undeniable.
But like what pimp said, it would be a serious problem if you only take BN M4M request without helping other normal mappers.
I think BN must have a balance in the conditions of choosing a map and cannot be partial.

Striking a balance between the two so that mappers can trust BN instead of just thinking that we are abusing power.

but yeah...
There are way too many mappers but less BNs now, (I really hate mappers ask for "nominations" instead of a mod request because most of the maps still have many unrankable things need to resolved...)
if We didn't wrote/said we are closed our requests will be overloaded.
We are not only need to check things carefully but also need time to recheck.
we should check the mp3/video, the metadata source, timing, spread, SB, missing stuff and many other stuff.
It usually takes me hours to check a single map or 2.
BN is a volunteer work. and we are human.
I also need my own leisure time to do the things I like!
If I am a robot I would like to accept all the requests from forum pm discord and everywhere but I can't.
Just wanna say sorry for the mappers that have asked me but I rejected or didn't replied.
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