Yes, it's okay to have a full difficulty spread for a mania only mapset.

However requiring people to have two mania difficulties on a standard mapset is kind of ridiculous, I think. One should be sufficient for ranking there.

Silynn wrote:

Agka wrote:

-No removal of hitsounds (or 5% volume for that matter). The usage of a single hitsound is allowed, though.

This is something to be decided on a case to case basis. If it fits it fits, but that will be very rare. No point in making this a rule - it will most likely just cause trouble down the road.

If it's used incorrectly, then that should be adjusted and fixed in the modding process.

If a hitsound needs to be removed, then there shouldn't be any hitobject at that spot in the first place.

Unlike taiko, the mania community is already overflown with mappers. heh.

Shiro wrote:

If a hitsound needs to be removed, then there shouldn't be any hitobject at that spot in the first place.

I see no point in making this a rule, though.
Having too many rules limits creativity and just confuses people.
If something like this comes up in a map, it will in most (if not all) cases not fit at all and be modded out.

I think the rule is completely unnecessary, and I don't think unnecessary rules are healthy

as I said, while I disagree with that myself, it's word of peppy. lol

see the menu with the song on.

Guideline: have only one key mode in your set of mania. (only applies to mania specific mapsets)

Agka wrote:

Let me bullet point a few things so far.

-Full difficulty spread on a specific mapset, with a minimum of two difficulties on non-marathon songs.
-Two diffs minimum for non-specific mapsets. Only one needed on marathon songs.
-No removal of hitsounds (or 5% volume for that matter). The usage of a single hitsound is allowed, though.
-You can't use BPMs to do speed effects. (because it breaks osu. not because they're stupid or whatever.)

Basically, off the top of my head.

-I think all maps should be required to have an easier difficulty. It's not fair to just map for the experienced players.

-Hit sounds I kind of agree with but I think low volume should be allowed as higher volumes can ruin the song if too overpowering. Of course using custom sounds should be encouraged though as it makes the map sound and feel better when playing if done well.

-BPM changes is where I don't agree at all. Taiko and standard both have speed changes by changing the slider velocity, why should mania not have them too? I think having speed changes makes the maps more fun as well if used properly. Maybe limit the number of speed changes or make sure that nothing is drastic enough to be unexpected when playing? :<

while I would like to have SV changes for mania it's not the situation. Feel free to do a feature request for it and I'll definitely support it though.

since the question is "what's the possible ranking criteria right now" that's what I think about it.

I think in terms of map creation, very few guidelines are needed and even fewer rules. I can't think of many off the top of my head, most bad things don't need a rule and will be taken care of through modding because it's quite obvious when something doesn't work (we aren't in 2007 anymore, people know how to play the game). Most patterns and gimmicks have their place in specific cases, and none of them should be blatantly ruled out.

In the case of BPM changes and hitsounds, that should also be a case to case thing, if it works then it works. I don't think it should be unrankable for being what it is if it plays perfectly.

What needs rules mostly, it seems, are relating to difficulty spread

Are mania only mapsets going to be rankable right away? If yes, then that is something that needs to be worked on.

To me, each number of keys is a completely different mode. So if you are going to include let's say, 7key, in your mapset, then you should have a full difficulty spread for 7key. That is 2-4 difficulties, one being less than 3 stars then a hard and maybe an insane. Same goes for every other number of keys.

So you could have a mapset like this:

5key normal, 5key hard, 5key insane, 7key normal, 7key hard, 7key insane

but this would be not allowed:
4key easy, 5key hard, 7key insane

4key easy, 4key insane, 7key easy, 7key normal, 7key hard, 7key insane, 6key normal

etc.

As for mania diffs in an osu!standard mapset, I think it should just be what taiko used to be - at the very least, a single insane diff (with a number of keys of your choice)

well
that's my two cents
hurr

Agka wrote:

-You can't use BPMs to do speed effects. (because it breaks osu. not because they're stupid or whatever.)

I played some of the maps you linked and don't understand why you don't want them. Not sure what you mean by break osu!, as they did nothing to the game.

Using speed effects just make the map more interesting. For example, this one you did, ja'i envie de plasir. This should be a case by case thing; if it works and fits the song, then there shouldn't be a problem with keeping the speed changes.

they break both holds and the cookie bumping in the main menu.

I'm completely fine with them.

I suggest Slider Velocity changes have the speedup/slowdown effect as it have in taiko. This should surely only apply if the map is customly made for osu!mania. But I think this belongs to Feature Request D:

About the keyset, I discussed once with peppy and he said, that you can raise the keyamount with increasing difficulty but not vica versa. means:

if you have an Easy 4k, you can have a Hard 6k.
If you have an Easy 6k, you can not have a Hard 4k.
If you have an Easy 4k, you can have a Hard 4k. (obvious)

I am also against 1/4 spam on single-line. Also I'd consider disallowing all-key holds in 6k+ (hardware issues for certain keyboard users, especially USB keyboard users (ghosting))

That's what I thought of in 4 seconds. The rest was pretty much mentioned already.

Edit: moved to /Ranking Criteria/

The 2 difficulty thing in taiko is there because the translation from osu!Standard to Taiko is horrendous at best. osu!mania's translation however, is one of the best I've seen in a rhythm game (ever), and it applies well to easier difficulties. New players are able to learn osu!mania on converted maps, so we dont need easy maps to serve the same purpose. Combined with the forced Key mods, any player can learn any set of keys using almost any ranked song with relative success.

Taiko needs the 2 difficulty rule for newer players because nobody can learn off of translations
Mania does not need the rule because newer players can learn off of translations.

I believe I should also put my two cents into actual guidelines... All of this is from stepmania experience.

"Jackhammers" should be unrankable unless it's an expert difficulty. This pattern is basically a multitude of notes placed on one lane of the field. It looks like this:

|-----|
|O---|
|O---|
|O---|
|O---|
|O---|
|-----|

It's called a jackhammer because you literally have to jackhammer your keyboard with your hand to play, feeling unnatural and broken. It is also very difficult to play, requiring people to learn to vibrate the wrist.

Another issue is hand balance. Putting too many notes on either your left or right hand can make the pattern more difficult than it has to be, simply because not everyone is ambi-dexterous.

Jackhammers should only be used if it's relevant to the music. Like glitched vocal stutters or turntable scratching for example.
That should be pretty obvious.

MMzz wrote:

Jackhammers should only be used if it's relevant to the music. Like glitched vocals stutters or turntable scratching for example.
That should be pretty obvious.

one of the few things I can agree with MMzz about when it comes to mania

also

Mithost wrote:

Mania does not need the rule because newer players can learn off of translations.

no, they can't. they get stuck with noob level insanes.

Loctav wrote:

I suggest Slider Velocity changes have the speedup/slowdown effect as it have in taiko. This should surely only apply if the map is customly made for osu!mania. But I think this belongs to Feature Request D:

I am also against 1/4 spam on single-line. Also I'd consider disallowing all-key holds in 6k+ (hardware issues for certain keyboard users, especially USB keyboard users (ghosting))

+1 at SV changes.

-1 1/4 spam, it can be used properly.

All key holds in 6k is a non-issue. You can buy a better keyboard. Just as people buy mouses and tablets for standard.

Loctav wrote:

I am also against 1/4 spam on single-line. Also I'd consider disallowing all-key holds in 6k+ (hardware issues for certain keyboard users, especially USB keyboard users (ghosting))

Why should something be considered unrankable due to hardware?

As for jackhammers, they have their uses. If it fits the song then it should be allowed, however, only on insane difficulties (for obvious reasons)

Agka wrote:

no, they can't. they get stuck with noob level insanes.

What's your point here? New players refers to people who can't even play insanes, but people who can only play easy/normal diffs

even then they don't learn the patterns that specifics (that will be insanes seeing how the minimum diff. count will be two) will be used. That's what I mean.

They'll be stuck with easy insanes.

though that point isn't important to me at this moment so sorry if i'm saying nonsense.

Agka wrote:

even then they don't learn the patterns that specifics (that will be insanes seeing how the minimum diff. count will be two) will be used. That's what I mean.

They'll be stuck with easy insanes.

though that point isn't important to me at this moment so sorry if i'm saying nonsense.

Yes, but he was saying that for non-specific mapsets you don't need need an easy diff because the chart conversion works well for those difficulties.

yeah maybe easies and insanes, but from hard up I'd probably disagree hard. heh sorry if that's what you meant~

For the ranking i think as a guest difficulty one difficulty alone is enough and it should be whatever mode the creator aimed for. More diffierent modes should be allowed to be added as guest difficulty but allways starting at the hardest and then adding an easier one.

For mania only maps i think 3 difficulties are needed at minimum: easy+normal+hard/insane. One more other mode should be possible to be added so the ranked map would have 6 difficulties for example. 3diffs for 4k and 3diffs for 6k and so on

About the speedup and osu logo going too fast in the menu, i think thats not wanted too so i think the logo should pulse to the BPM the song is actually. It could be done if it just knows what timing section is used for the most of the song or just set the timing section manually.

For the gameplay in the map i think there should not be too many rules. There are only a handfull few guidelines.
The map should balance out both hands while playing for the most of the time. Parts where only one hand is stressed are very difficult and should not be used for the most of the song but can be used in certain places to add to the difficulty.
The notes should be put with an idea and structure behind them so the player can comprehend what the notes are intended to be.

I should have been more clear. Jackhammers are perfectly fine if it's 2-5, but I've seen songs that have 7-20+ long 32nd/64th note jackhammers in stepmania that I gave up on simply to save my wrist from physical damage (It's happened twice to me before). The only songs that could possibly use those patterns have more intuitive patterns waiting for them.

And I still think the translations are as good of a learning tool as stepmania/ddr charts are, especially when you are climbing up to 6-7 keys. If you guys don't think they are good enough though, I understand.

Autoconverted maps and map difficulty:

While autoconversion is better than I expected it to be, it still rarely presents the player with any of the same mapping structures that you would see in proper mania maps. They can be good practice, but often times even in relatively easy autoconversions, players can be presented with more difficult patterns (odd chords one after the other, holds+notes on otherwise easy maps, etc.). When playing easier maps and learning the game, players should be presented with a progression of skill. What I mean by this is that for the easiest maps, you shouldn't ever have 3 note chords one after the other, especially not something like 124 then 347, nor should you present them with holds+notes, or quick triplets, chord holds, holds starting at different times, or structures like this: 1, 1, 13, 1, 3. Those things should be gradually introduced to players. However, this should absolutely not force a mapper to leave every slightly difficult pattern out of an easier map. They should pick and chose 1 or 2 of those features that would be more appropriate for how the song is, and use them sparingly. (EDIT to clarify, the numbers I use here for patterns are column numbers. 2 numbers beside each other means a chord, the commas separate the notes/chords, these numbers are based on 7k, but the idea applies to all key numbers).

There is something that plagues osu standard that I really hope does not carry over into mania as far as actual difficulty spread. In standard the difficulty spread is generally more or less the same for every single map, despite the fact that some songs would benefit from a much higher overall difficulty. If you look at maps in o2jam, there were some who's difficulty levels ranged from say 1 to 10 between 3 difficulties, and yet there were also some maps where the easiest difficulty might be a 15, and the hardest a 60, with the medium somewhere between them. I would much prefer this approach as it gives the mapper more room to work with how exactly their map feels at every difficulty. I'm not suggesting that mappers should be allowed to make an "easy" as hard as a standard hard (although I wouldn't be opposed to allow that in approved maps), but I think more lenience on that should be allowed. If you want to map something like xepher, and make it like a "boss map" designed specifically to be legitimately harder than similar difficulty levels of other maps, it should be allowed. To reiterate, standard osu feels too "samey" between maps. Most hards are within a rather small range of difficulty, etc. Maybe coming up with a better difficulty rating would be necessary if something like this were implemented, but the lack of a more accurate difficulty rating system shouldn't stop something like that from being considered.

The "sliding difficulty window" in o2jam created a sense of progression that osu doesn't have. You could clearly see if a song had an easy that was a 15, or even higher, that song was hard period, and only got harder from there. It allowed a song to be characterized as a harder or easier song overall. It meant that the really easy songs could have 3 difficulties all in the 1-5 range if they wanted and the harder songs could have a range from say 20-50, or whatever. Each song could be placed as roughly easier or harder than some other songs, and as you got better you kinda felt like you were really moving up from "easier songs" to "harder songs". It also meant that as you were learning on the easier songs, once you got too good to play the easy difficulty on a song, you didn't always have a large jump on that song between easy and medium, sometimes by the time you got too good for the easy, you were at the right level for the medium. In short: moving between difficulties in osu usually involves some considerable jump in difficulty, and this system directly works against that since a medium might be a very easy medium (just slightly harder than an easy) or a very hard medium (possibly harder than even a hard on easier songs). (this only works well provided that you have a good sense of pattern difficulty progression as I mentioned earlier between easy medium, and hard maps.)

Use of rules and guidelines:

I agree with Silynn that rules and guidelines should be relaxed. We have a system that pushes for extensive community modding, we should make good use of it.

People have been mapping for mania style (whether 4, 6, or 7k) for years now in various different games, none of which have anything remotely close to the modding community that osu has let alone some sort of actual ruleset, and yet there are a ton of very good maps/charts out there for those games. Everyone in those communities is completely free to use or abuse features in any way they feel like and yet if you look at what the good players play, the maps are generally all very well done. All we really need is a set of guidelines at best.

A good example of someone from the stepmania community who was famous for their charts was NVLM_ZK, a japanese stepcharter who regularly created charts that broke many of the general guidelines people followed. Yet his maps were still fun for a lot of people (even if they barely made sense most of the time).

Jackhammers and other patterns seen to be "abusive":

Jackhammers have always been controversial. Many players hate them, because they are very difficult, yet they are often used. Despite being difficult, there are times when jackhamers are appropriate, and should be allowed, even if they are to the point of being ridiculous. If a map "abuses" jackhammers, maybe it should be accepted, rather than ranked (though frankly I think the distinction is pointless, other than to maybe serve as a warning of "hey, this map is actually hard, or does something that might piss you off"), as long as the timing is correct and there aren't any glaring other problems.

I see the number of keys as a sort of "sub-gametype". Each key number presents different mapping patterns, and subsequently forces you to think slightly differently when mapping for the number of keys (5 and 7 have a middle key, 4, 6, and 8 don't, etc.). If you're going to map for 7k, you should at least include 2 difficulties for 7k.

As far as holds spanning BPM changes, I think it's a terrible idea to make something unrankable due to limitations in the software that should eventually be fixed.

BTW, I wonder about IIDX, O2JAM or EZ2DJ authentic mapsets

:3

Loctav wrote:

Also I'd consider disallowing all-key holds in 6k+ (hardware issues for certain keyboard users, especially USB keyboard users (ghosting))

I'd like it to be
* No 7+ objects at the same time, including hit notes, hold notes and hold note tails.

Loctav wrote:

I suggest Slider Velocity changes have the speedup/slowdown effect as it have in taiko. This should surely only apply if the map is customly made for osu!mania. But I think this belongs to Feature Request D:

This. I wanna make my awesome speed changes on my charts.
Without speed changes they look really boring.

Had a small discussion with woc2006(osu! dev team&osu!mania mode dev) and some active xats/mappers days ago

Results:

Seems that except for some all-mode-applicative rules(same artist/title. etc.), we are not really suggest to set up large amounts of specific rules since osu!mania is still a new born mode of osu!

And we suppose that XATs are the ones to handle mania maps and particular involved issues.

Mania only mapsets are rankable already.(said by woc2006)

You can not copy&paste original maps from BMS, o2jam, IIDX. etc (copyright issue)

(not a must)HP drain sate is suggested to be at least 7 or higher to get same HP drain rate in IIDX

Loctav wrote:

I suggest Slider Velocity changes have the speedup/slowdown effect as it have in taiko. This should surely only apply if the map is customly made for osu!mania. But I think this belongs to Feature Request D:

The current osu! editor is not yet very nicely done for mapping mania mode. You could try to use BMS editor to get such effect

LKs wrote:

You can not copy&paste original maps from BMS, o2jam, IIDX. etc (copyright issue)

osu! is under the DMCA so I'm not seeing why this is an issue

They why are there TNT maps ranked in first place? (Namco got copyright too, right?)

I'm not clear of this. I just posted what I was told. But this is ensured by woc. you could go ask him for more details

LKs wrote:

Mania only mapsets are rankable already.(said by woc2006)

I'm kinda suprised of this. Mania allready have so many mappers/modders ? In the other hand I see mapset using only one of the nK for all diff as a very good thing so 4K mappers can map insanes (and fix the "war" between score differences on tops).

Edit : I mean if getting more than 5-6 mods for a specific mania mapset is going to be a difficulty for the mapper. Are you sure getting mods isn't going to be a problem here ?

Bobbias wrote:

People have been mapping for mania style (whether 4, 6, or 7k) for years now in various different games, none of which have anything remotely close to the modding community that osu has let alone some sort of actual ruleset, and yet there are a ton of very good maps/charts out there for those games. Everyone in those communities is completely free to use or abuse features in any way they feel like and yet if you look at what the good players play, the maps are generally all very well done. All we really need is a set of guidelines at best.

On FFR, a 4K game, you'd be surprised as to how formal the "ranking" process is, "maps" are accepted from users and then sent to various judging groups to have each judge in the group give it a score out of 10. This score is then averaged (excluding the highest and lowest score). All the "maps" in that batch that have a score of at least X/10 are then accepted and are put in the queue to be added to the game at a later point. Even for stepmania packs, there is usually at least one judge that decides what files are acceptable for the pack and what is not.

Anyways, I'm hoping the ranking criteria for maps for o!m won't be as strict as those in the FFR community (you'd be slashed points for the simplest errors things like "layering" and "pitch relevancy.") Mostly just looking for stuff that's fun and not stupid.

Drafura wrote:

In the other hand I see mapset using only one of the nK for all diff as a very good thing so 4K mappers can map insanes (and fix the "war" between score differences on tops).

I like this

Hmm, maybe... Proper hitsounding?

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/61212

Oh well, I don't mean this one is perfect or something but at least trying to add some simple keysounds, that is all. Maybe this is a experimental cases for hitsounding?
(Ok, shame on me, it's like advertising my own map in here.)

Why do you think there should be rules regarding hitsounds?

@^: Well, that's a kinda personal preference, cause I think keysounds is important in this kind of key-hitting(?) rhythm game. But I didn't say anything about 'rules' yet, you know. Just leaving reference map like someone did previously.

EDIT:
Oh and if you ask me, I don't really want to enforce this kind of hitsounding or something since making such thing in osu editor is really, really pain.

Oh, that's all you meant by that
I assumed you meant that it should be made as a rule with your first statement
Sorry for misunderstanding.

benguin wrote:

Bobbias wrote:

People have been mapping for mania style (whether 4, 6, or 7k) for years now in various different games, none of which have anything remotely close to the modding community that osu has let alone some sort of actual ruleset, and yet there are a ton of very good maps/charts out there for those games. Everyone in those communities is completely free to use or abuse features in any way they feel like and yet if you look at what the good players play, the maps are generally all very well done. All we really need is a set of guidelines at best.

On FFR, a 4K game, you'd be surprised as to how formal the "ranking" process is, "maps" are accepted from users and then sent to various judging groups to have each judge in the group give it a score out of 10. This score is then averaged (excluding the highest and lowest score). All the "maps" in that batch that have a score of at least X/10 are then accepted and are put in the queue to be added to the game at a later point. Even for stepmania packs, there is usually at least one judge that decides what files are acceptable for the pack and what is not.

Anyways, I'm hoping the ranking criteria for maps for o!m won't be as strict as those in the FFR community (you'd be slashed points for the simplest errors things like "layering" and "pitch relevancy.") Mostly just looking for stuff that's fun and not stupid.

Drafura wrote:

In the other hand I see mapset using only one of the nK for all diff as a very good thing so 4K mappers can map insanes (and fix the "war" between score differences on tops).

I like this

Well to be fair, FFR was considered almost a joke compared to Stepmania for a very long time. My main point was that most communities do not have any rules at all, and that they operate perfectly fine without them. There are fewer overall things you can do to a mania style map that would make it unplayable (you can hit multiple notes at once, you can't layer holds under each other, etc. etc.) so overall the mode should require fewer overall even if you wanted to create a strong set of rules. The other thing about FFR is that being a flash game, the songs must be included as "part of the game" in a sense, they need to be moderated in some way since FFR has a more or less global songlist that everyone uses (unless things have changed. Feel free to correct me if that is the case.) In osu, the songs are completely separate from the game.

I don't get why everyone gets hung up on hitsounds. In games like IIDX, O2jam etc. hitsounds were part of the song, so they were important, but in stepmania, there were no hitsounds unless you turned on the extremely annoying clap sound for each note, and most people played without that. I don't feel that there is a need for hitsounds, period. IMO hitsounds should be entirely a personal preference issue, unless they are done in some way that is extremely annoying (like every note being a clap), and should be regulated by modding, rather than by some hard rule anyway.

Also, on the subject of slider velocity:

I don't think slider velocity is a good idea. As it stands, the BPM of the song (or BPMs, in the case of maps with changes) determine the scroll speed, meaning that with a bit of practice, you can almost always determine which speed you should be playing a map at. If slider velocity were introduced, it would be easily abused. It would make it much more difficult to determine what speed you should play at, since you couldn't count on the BPM to tell you what speed the song would actually fall at. It would also make it impossible to determine which maps had changes in scroll speed, since you could use a single BPM, but use slider velocity to suddenly change speeds on a player with no indication outside the map that it would change. Changing sider velocity in standard isn't a big deal because chances are the player should be able to adjust fairly quickly if they find sliders are suddenly faster or slower than they anticipated. In mania, if there is a large change in speed with no corresponding BPM change, it could be enough to force the player to have to play the song at a lower speed, but with no warning it would be impossible to determine whether you should or shouldn't reduce your speed until you hit that part of the map. That would result in many players failing or retrying at a specific change just because they had no idea it was there. With BPM changes, you always know the maximum scroll speed you'll have to deal with meaning that you will always know that there is at least a section somewhere that scrolls at the maximum BPM listed.

3 words yay and 5 keys

lepidopodus wrote:

Hmm, maybe... Proper hitsounding?

This would be really nice and useful if there's any tutorial on how to do those. I still can't get it right.

and yea the editor really is a pain.

Bobbias wrote:

the extremely annoying clap sound for each note

Lol Assist Tick

We know that other communities have worked fine. However, this community is not one like FFR; we don't have a set time of when to rank maps. What we also know is that mania mapping is much less restrictive when compared to the other three game modes, but there just has to be a bottom line to weed out what makes a good map rankable and what should be changed. Only when guidelines are created can we actually rank the maps, and as more maps are made we will revise the guidelines so that we have criteria best fitting for this community.

So for now, we've talked about a few things. Hitsounds, slider velocity, diff spread, and other criteria that can already be found in the Standard Ranking Criteria. Can we work on an actual set of rules/guidelines that set the above items in stone? I'm sure you're all dying to get mania maps ranked.

Hmm, to start with, few ideas :

- Avoiding the use of 1-finger streams for too long. They can become frustrating to play at higher speeds and thus make the whole chart unfun.
- Maybe using pauses and stuff ? I don't know about the 0-bpm thing in osu!mania. If this is possible to do such a thing, avoiding the overuse of those things. Gimmicks, but not too much. Allowing this for non-musical parts (Gangnam Style has nothing preceeding "Oppan Gangnam Style" before the chorus if you want an example.)
- What I said above, this also applies for x2 x4 x8 x16 and stuff sections, not anyone is a hardcore StepMania player who can read gimmicks with X-mods ! The chart should be sightreadable.
- Unicity of the scrolling speed through the whole mania mapset.

You can discuss about these ideas and add some more !

IF we get scrolling speed variance there's no need to keep it consistent- just that if it's done it's kept at a higher level of difficulty if you plan to not include them in some difficulties. See speeds for instance in sm5, where you can change the scrolling speed without altering the BPM. We're looking to do something like that.

Drafura wrote:

LKs wrote:

Mania only mapsets are rankable already.(said by woc2006)

I'm kinda suprised of this. Mania allready have so many mappers/modders ? In the other hand I see mapset using only one of the nK for all diff as a very good thing so 4K mappers can map insanes (and fix the "war" between score differences on tops).

Edit : I mean if getting more than 5-6 mods for a specific mania mapset is going to be a difficulty for the mapper. Are you sure getting mods isn't going to be a problem here ?

Yes. They do.
No it won't be a problem.

There's already a LOT of people that are active. Mania might be the mode that starts with the most momentum.

And regarding ranking rules- Mania is not to be very strict, unlike standard- some stuff that might seem stupid on a map is very fun, great and even amazing when used in other contexts.

And 2x or 4x etc.. gimmicks done properly can be sightreadable. Sometimes people did someething like using 2x bpm while doing stops that only made it look like it vibrated a bit and such.

I want to say to avoid this yet as people can't make gimmicks that well (I can't do it myself tbh) but with good experience in mapping those you can make such awesome charts (Divinelegy anyone ?)
I would consider it as a guideline pretty much (as well as everything but the 1/4 1-fing streams)

As long as the mapped notes makes sense and fun, it should be okay isn't it? It's quite easy to see which maps are retarded enough to be unrankable. (Edit:) And to an extent, unapprovable.

Like Agka said, Mania ranking rules shouldn't be very strict. Else we'll have maps that looks all the same due to limited placing of the notes (4 to 8 lanes). Also, like what Agka said again, gimmicks should be sightreadable. Exceptions would be an extreme case, but should be allowed if ever.

it's easy, but we need the guidelines so people don't complain by saying THIS ISN'T UNRANKABLE THE RULES DON'T SAY IT

which is basically what we must avoid


EDIT:

guideline- if you made your map with a converter (e.g. o2jam ojns, bms or .sm, or ftb) include the original (unconverted) file.

All I want to contribute is a rule that bans/limits long jackhammers. Normal Length jackhammers (3-5) should be enough to fit any stutter in a song, and dubstep/electronic music that might call on longer jackhammers can usually use different, more flow-y patterns. It's not hard to avoid using them.

Mithost wrote:

Normal Length jackhammers (2-4) should be enough

Fixed that for you. 5 is rarely used unless if the song really fits it.

And yet I still keep making mash notes which are harder than jackhammers orz.

I said 3-5 because other people seemed to want more lenient rules (which is fine).

Mithost wrote:

I said 3-5 because other people seemed to want more lenient rules (which is fine).

Actually we should just remove this rule about jackhammers. I'm sure modders and possibly new mappers would already know if the chart is dumb enough if they have too many.

Lets just put it in a a huge rule that says "No stupid patterns"

subjective rules are bad

rickyboi wrote:

Mithost wrote:

I said 3-5 because other people seemed to want more lenient rules (which is fine).

Actually we should just remove this rule about jackhammers. I'm sure modders and possibly new mappers would already know if the chart is dumb enough if they have too many.

192 bpm jacks
FOR 8 BEATS
I NEARLY BROKE MY HANDS

unless the song is called "jackhammer madness" there is no real reason to put any long jacks at 170+ bpm.

Neat, someone made something hard and you got mad

There was likely no reason for them to map like that, but guess what else? There is no reason to make a rule against it either.

Regarding jackhammers, all that needs to be said is a guideline telling you to use them carefully and not overmap. If that's even necessary.

They fit when they fit, and if they don't they definitely get modded out.

I can't believe this is still a discussion, making rules about patterns is a dumb idea in general

_Gezo_ wrote:

192 bpm jacks
FOR 8 BEATS
I NEARLY BROKE MY HANDS

unless the song is called "jackhammer madness" there is no real reason to put any long jacks at 170+ bpm.

I don't see any problem here.
>200 bpm
>skip to 1:01
>jackhammering like it's nothing.


Anyway I don't wanna see any rules about preventing jackhammers but I'd rather wanna see someone make a guideline about what's good and what's bad when you use these kind of patterns.

Agka wrote:

-You can't use BPMs to do speed effects. (because it breaks osu. not because they're stupid or whatever.)

Basically, off the top of my head.

I'd like to see 0 bpm notes, they look nice and you can map a breakcore map in a cool way, please stop restricting this game so much...

Big and Busty wrote:

I'd like to see 0 bpm notes, they look nice and you can map a breakcore map in a cool way

If this was osu! standard i would be saying "hell no", but this is osu!mania and iirc in DDR/Stepmania a 0 bpm section should make the notes freeze in place until the end of said section, and that's actually cool.

Sakura wrote:

Big and Busty wrote:

I'd like to see 0 bpm notes, they look nice and you can map a breakcore map in a cool way

If this was osu! standard i would be saying "hell no", but this is osu!mania and iirc in DDR/Stepmania a 0 bpm section should make the notes freeze in place until the end of said section, and that's actually cool.

bpm gimmicks can be VERY cool & fun when used properly, so i think at the very least they should be possible to approve, at best ranked on an insane diff

Agka wrote:

-You can't use BPMs to do speed effects. (because it breaks osu. not because they're stupid or whatever.)

BPM speed effects add more creativity to maps and allows a mapper to express his or her self in their own way.
ja'i envie de plasir looks 100000x cooler with 0 BMP effects than if it didn't have them.

I wish Taiko mappers were more creative like this... or maybe they aren't to blame and it's the rules that hold them back.

There's been a decrease in Taiko mappers because of these strict rules. Please don't let this happen to osu!mania as well. I'd hate to see it die before it ever took off.

Most fun stepmania maps are either crazy hard, swing maps, or BPM gimmicks. BPM gimmicks, even if they can only go to approved, should not be limited because it puts a lot more into the game for all difficulty levels. I might as well post an example.



This is stuff that storyboarding probably can't conventionally accomplish, but it's in the same boat as songs like Fake It. It's definitely not sightreadable, but it is still a work of art and at least deserves approved status.

I think you haven't read my stance on BPM changes.

I like them. They're the best type of gimmick to hit the universe.

It offers so much flexibility and ways of fun.

BUT OSU CAN'T HANDLE THEM.

try adjusting the offset of a song that uses bpm gimmicks in osu!, and see how the cookie goes apeshit. See how it breaks the holds.

But seriously. Osu! can't handle them. And it probably never will. So while osu! can't handle them properly, they can't. be. ranked.

It's that.

If you want the real deal, play the real deal, and leave mania to be what peppy and woc wants it to be. We can't do decisions on that.

Agka wrote:

I think you haven't read my stance on BPM changes.

I like them. They're the best type of gimmick to hit the universe.

It offers so much flexibility and ways of fun.

BUT OSU CAN'T HANDLE THEM.

try adjusting the offset of a song that uses bpm gimmicks in osu!, and see how the cookie goes apeshit. See how it breaks the holds.

But seriously. Osu! can't handle them. And it probably never will. So while osu! can't handle them properly, they can't. be. ranked.

It's that.

If you want the real deal, play the real deal, and leave mania to be what peppy and woc wants it to be. We can't do decisions on that.

It can.. please try to map something? I have a few maps with 0 - 9999 bpm, and I don't really see anything broken?

"Map something. It can."

really?

I mean, really?

Big and Busty wrote:

I have a few maps with 0 - 9999 bpm, and I don't really see anything broken?

Link ? I'm really interested in how this is done in a good way.

All slider ends must be mute.

Agka wrote:

"Map something. It can."

really?

I mean, really?

Yeah... really.
I was messing around seeing if I could get the pauses in Max Infinity to work visually in osu! and it worked like a charm.
I didn't use absolute 0 BPM, I used 0.01 and there were no problems at all.

rickyboi wrote:

Anyway I don't wanna see any rules about preventing jackhammers

to me it is like asking not to put rules about extremely stupidly retarded streams in taiko. (and those words just are dimming what I think to the maximum extent)
for approval yes as long as we can make long jackhammers that are >8bt long without breaking people's hands (do you know people who can jackhammer Freedom Dive ?), but people who can't play that speed should not be left if the map is for ranking.

Kuro wrote:

I wish Taiko mappers were more creative like this... or maybe they aren't to blame and it's the rules that hold them back.

0x sections does not exist anymore, as well as >10x, that's why I ditched my The End project. Kuri's Sebben Crudele is completely broken, now. All because this fucking stupid 0x section in some ranked map made it broken, thanks to the HD fix. :/

Charles445 wrote:

Agka wrote:

"Map something. It can."

really?

I mean, really?

Yeah... really.
I was messing around seeing if I could get the pauses in Max Infinity to work visually in osu! and it worked like a charm.
I didn't use absolute 0 BPM, I used 0.01 and there were no problems at all.

try changing your map's offset (so all red points can stay where they are right now) and/or move all of your notes at the same time (which you can select them all, but you can't drag them through the timeline)

whatever, do as you like.

i'm not up to really explain it, I honestly can't care less if you're acting stubborn and prefer doing hacky bpm changes instead of sv velocity multipliers.

You can do smooth changes too you just need to add 2 more timing sections

The bpm changes messes up your charts falling guideline. That's what's so broken about it. I'd really like it if we can just use the velocity to multiply / divide the downspeed just like Taiko.

Silynn wrote:

Shiro wrote:

If a hitsound needs to be removed, then there shouldn't be any hitobject at that spot in the first place.

I see no point in making this a rule, though.
Having too many rules limits creativity and just confuses people.
If something like this comes up in a map, it will in most (if not all) cases not fit at all and be modded out.

I think the rule is completely unnecessary, and I don't think unnecessary rules are healthy

My point is that there should not be any rule forcing mappers to use hitsounds.

Mania maps have 2 styles, one is COMPLETELY NO hitsound style ( e.g. no key sound bms) and the other is completely-set hitsound style(e.g. o2jam/djmax songs, key-sound BMS). For these songs without any hitsound, it is intended to play without any disturbance (even with osu! default hitsound). So mapper should be left freedom to have hitsounds or not on their maps.

P.S. Actually I played mania always with sound effect close to avoid disturbance of default hit sound.

rickyboi wrote:

The bpm changes messes up your charts falling guideline. That's what's so broken about it. I'd really like it if we can just use the velocity to multiply / divide the downspeed just like Taiko.

Actually, most mania maps that already exist ( actually the mania mapping style) is using BPM change.

There are no such "velocity" concept in mania mapping in other games though

Drafura wrote:

Big and Busty wrote:

I have a few maps with 0 - 9999 bpm, and I don't really see anything broken?

Link ? I'm really interested in how this is done in a good way.

I have handmad 20-65535 maps for test purpose.

It works fine.

_Gezo_ wrote:

Hmm, to start with, few ideas :

- Avoiding the use of 1-finger streams for too long. They can become frustrating to play at higher speeds and thus make the whole chart unfun.
- Maybe using pauses and stuff ? I don't know about the 0-bpm thing in osu!mania. If this is possible to do such a thing, avoiding the overuse of those things. Gimmicks, but not too much. Allowing this for non-musical parts (Gangnam Style has nothing preceeding "Oppan Gangnam Style" before the chorus if you want an example.)
- What I said above, this also applies for x2 x4 x8 x16 and stuff sections, not anyone is a hardcore StepMania player who can read gimmicks with X-mods ! The chart should be sightreadable.
- Unicity of the scrolling speed through the whole mania mapset.

You can discuss about these ideas and add some more !

1-finger streams are sometimes suitable, but in very stricted situations. And in most cases it is with some spaces like:(all in 1/4)

x_xx_xx_x_xx_xx_x_xx_xx_x_xx_xx_xxx_xx....

you may be familiar with that pattern in taiko. That's it.

Though the most concern is overusing of that, or even 1/8 streams. (like Identity II in o2jam, (there're a hand-made beatmap by entozer? I forget that) Would that kind of thing be rankable?

statementreply wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Also I'd consider disallowing all-key holds in 6k+ (hardware issues for certain keyboard users, especially USB keyboard users (ghosting))

I'd like it to be
* No 7+ objects at the same time, including hit notes, hold notes and hold note tails.

Mappers can easily make a rule break by placing 7 note like this:

1/16 _ _ _ _ X X X
0 X X X X _ _ _

(Though it is commonly used in piano songs.)


Like Bobbias said, I do think there should not be a forced difficulty setting for "normal" difficulties.
Beatmaps can have (or should have/must have, that doesn't matter) 2 or more diffs, though all of them are above "easy" level(such as lv 15 in o2jam).
Making an easy diff for a few songs are just mad, extremely for songs full of 1/4 or 1/8 beats . For example, if you try to make a lv5 difficulty for ez2dj song "Fire Storm", you would end up making a map of nonsense. These songs are hard for beginners even in catching the beats. So in these cases( maybe really rare), a so-easy diff should not be forced. example used for comparison ( I don't know whether it is suitable) is APP maps in osu! standard. They don't have easy diffs ( maybe that's the reason why they are APPed).

Please dont triple post and use the edit button next time.

xxbidiao, stop trying to convince everyone else that bpm changes work

just turn on the barline and see how very freaking broken it is. A new red point implies start of a measure for osu! at this time, which basically breaks the timelines.

Given the rhythm complexity changing offset becomes tedious.

and sorry but this isn't other rhythm games, this is osu! so while we can use other games as a guideline we can't force THEIR standards into THIS game.

Agka wrote:

xxbidiao, stop trying to convince everyone else that bpm changes work

just turn on the barline and see how very freaking broken it is. A new red point implies start of a measure for osu! at this time, which basically breaks the timelines.

Given the rhythm complexity changing offset becomes tedious.

and sorry but this isn't other rhythm games, this is osu! so while we can use other games as a guideline we can't force THEIR standards into THIS game.

It nothing about bpm changing, it's my fault that i haven't make barlines works the right way which will takes a great amount of effort.
Osu! has a different method to measure barline and it cause troubles in mania. Use green lines for speed changing may help and this feature comes later.

woc2006 wrote:

Use green lines for speed changing may help and this feature comes later.

MY GOD! FINALLY!

I assume xxbidiao is talking about this?

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?69e2vuen437p2op

And yes, I am curious. Is this kind of map rankable?

woc2006 wrote:

Agka wrote:

xxbidiao, stop trying to convince everyone else that bpm changes work

just turn on the barline and see how very freaking broken it is. A new red point implies start of a measure for osu! at this time, which basically breaks the timelines.

Given the rhythm complexity changing offset becomes tedious.

and sorry but this isn't other rhythm games, this is osu! so while we can use other games as a guideline we can't force THEIR standards into THIS game.

It nothing about bpm changing, it's my fault that i haven't make barlines works the right way which will takes a great amount of effort.
Osu! has a different method to measure barline and it cause troubles in mania. Use green lines for speed changing may help and this feature comes later.

my god woc, thanks. But that barline handling osu! has is the reason I'm voting to disallow bpm changes in favor of SV changes.

@Entozer: Nice chart, and yes if it has the bpm changes removed atm. Unless woc changes it or you replace it with sv changes if they're implemented (Yes, I saw the like, 2 effect bpm changes you used but yeah, barlines.)

Yes, I am willing to change them, as well as change the bpm sections I made in my other maps. Provided that woc really does make it to do SV changes like how a lot of people want it. And thanks.

Actually green line speed change has huge limitation, and it was said by woc2006 that red-line BPM change is only affecting barline showing now. Everything other than that is OK ,so red-line BPM change should work

if woc implements bpm changes not altering the barline or making it act correctly maybe, but even then bpm is not supposed to be used for THAT.

i'm not against using bpm changes, i'm against using them as visual effects when you can simply go ahead and use the SV changes woc is going to introduce.

seriously.

and the limitation is that it hasn't been implemented yet.

ps: all the reasons of why not use bpm changes have been stated and some weren't stated by me. so yeah.

It's in the ranking criteria that the bpm must be correct. If a song is 100bpm it won't ever be 800bpm even if you want a 8x scroll at one point. Unfortunately, the editor limits slider velocity changes from 0.5x to 2.0x, but maybe it can be implemented that the sv multiplier can have a larger range for osu!mania.

those wrote:

the editor limits slider velocity changes from 0.5x to 2.0x

changing the .osu file can extend these values from 0.1x to 10.0x

for mania it should be able to go from 0 to 4, i think. 100% notefield stops are a common fun thing in BPM gimmick files!

I created [[osu!mania Ranking Criteria]], because we already have some approved rules and having a wiki page will fasten the process of creating final version of the page.
Yay!

those wrote:

It's in the ranking criteria that the bpm must be correct. If a song is 100bpm it won't ever be 800bpm even if you want a 8x scroll at one point. Unfortunately, the editor limits slider velocity changes from 0.5x to 2.0x, but maybe it can be implemented that the sv multiplier can have a larger range for osu!mania.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

If SV change has the ability like 0.97551x or 21.64073x, that will make every mapper satisfied, though we need woc to take more effort

For jackhammers, I didn't found the exactly definition. My point is that it should not be restricted too much - at least, just 5 combo (which is like the situation in wiki page) in very rare cases should be allowed. If Jackhammer protection is mainly for "It's called a jackhammer because you literally have to jackhammer your keyboard with your hand to play, feeling unnatural and broken. It is also very difficult to play, requiring people to learn to vibrate the wrist." Only a *really* few jackhammers and enough space between them would be OK and abandoning use of them may make map unnatural in some cases.
So would it be better to just become a guideline in most situations? ( Or to gradually untighten this rule to just prevent jackhammers that lasts way too long(like 10~20 sec) or even a whole map?)

at least, just 5 combo (which is like the situation in wiki page)

This is just an example.

even a whole map?

You are telling this like if there wasn't exact phrase of what jackhammer is, all maps will consist between 100% jackhammers . Don't be so obsessed.

Strict rules are not needed. Telling "170 bpm 1/4 one column pattern is a jackhammer and 169 bpm are not" is pretty stupid.

Sorry for second post. Though I would like to make another post for it

How about "one-second kill"?

One-second kill is firstly widely used in O2jam to represent a period of song that is *FAR* more harder than most other part of the song that makes player to "fail in one second".

Though you all know o!m life is very easy-going, and it is really hard to perform a one-second kill here, which makes "one-second kill" not so meaningful. But these periods are still way too hard to pass without missing( or even saying, "Anyone without missing is cheating" in rare cases is proper). The problem here I want to rise is that for these insane one-second kill. Should we put any restrictions on it?

Note: one-second kill != jackhammers.

Some examples for one-second kill: (if not sepcified they are in 1/8 scale) :

1. character kill (it's like an M)

|-oo-oo-|
|-o-o-o-|
|o--o--o|
|o--o--o|
|o--o--o|
|o--o--o|
|-------|


2. one kind of slider kill ( not using 7K to prevent confusing to 7-key-at-the-same-time problem)(in this example # represents a slider part)

|----|
|###-|
|###o|
|###-|
|##-#|
|##o#|
|##-#|
|#-##|
|#o##|
|#-##|
|-###|
|o###|
|-###|
|####|

3.very-very quick notes from one side to the other and going back. (from Identity III hard style)
*This one is in 1/16 scale!*


|-o-----|
|o----o-|
|-o-----|
|--o----|
|o--o---|
|----o--|
|-----o-|
|-o----o|
|-----o-|
|----o--|
|o--o---|
|--o----|
|-o-----|
|o------|

[Dellirium] wrote:

at least, just 5 combo (which is like the situation in wiki page)

This is just an example.

even a whole map?

You are telling this like if there wasn't exact phrase of what jackhammer is, all maps will consist between 100% jackhammers . Don't be so obsessed.

Strict rules are not needed. Telling "170 bpm 1/4 one column pattern is a jackhammer and 169 bpm are not" is pretty stupid.

the whole jackhammer song in my post is of that kind of thing: a stream lasts from the beginning to the ending of the song without any break, like a few taiko maps. There are rules that prevent taiko map of that kind be ranked too

those "one second kills" you're talking about are called mashes.
and it's probably safe to say I'd rather have a guideline to tell people to avoid mashes like the plague.

edit: your third example isn't a mash. it's imho perfectly rankable.

Agka wrote:

those "one second kills" you're talking about are called mashes.
and it's probably safe to say I'd rather have a guideline to tell people to avoid mashes like the plague.

edit: your third example isn't a mash. it's imho perfectly rankable.

For the third example I had a little mod to avoid it becoming a jackhammer, though It may be harder than at least the second example above.
Guideline is really great thing! Though we may need more human effort to consider whether a period is a mash or not.

it's not that hard imho. :p

Guideline(or at least a suggestion):
-Refrain from using patterns the are to played pressing too many keys at the same moment.

Reason: Not anyone have a Blackwidow or a gaming keyboard to play the game.

But then, not all keyboards have to be specifically blackwidow or a gaming one to be able to press at least 7 keys. I can't really see how people can't press at least 6 (+1 modifier) key at once with any kind of keyboard. I've used cheap usb keyboard that costs less than $3 and I can easily press 7 keys with it. In fact all the keyboards I've used so far can be setted up to press 7 keys simultanously. No exceptions.

Unless there are somea lot of retarded keyboards I don't know of that literally limits any key combinations to 4-5 keys, there shouldn't be anything in the guideline/ranking criteria that limits the amount of keys we can press at the same moment.

Isn't this a guideline if you can use it ? (I mean the entire jackhammer rule)

Entozer wrote:

Unless there are somea lot of retarded keyboards I don't know of that literally limits any key combinations to 4-5 keys, there shouldn't be anything in the guideline/ranking criteria that limits the amount of keys we can press at the same moment.

There are a lot of "retarded" keyboards that you don't know of, then. And I mean a lot.

Ekaru wrote:

Entozer wrote:

Unless there are somea lot of retarded keyboards I don't know of that literally limits any key combinations to 4-5 keys, there shouldn't be anything in the guideline/ranking criteria that limits the amount of keys we can press at the same moment.

There are a lot of "retarded" keyboards that you don't know of, then. And I mean a lot.

Forgive me if I'm quite the stubborn one but unless they tried every possible key combinations within comfortable range of playing osu!mania for those keyboards, there shouldn't be a limit in the ranking criteria. And also, it would be great if people could name the model of their keyboard that can't press anything more than 4 keys not including modifier keys.

Ranking criteria should NOT be based on whether some people with bad hardware can or can't play something.

Similarly, it's never a good idea to completely ban certain things just because they are extremely difficult for most players. This is a skill based game. If someone doesnt have the skill to pass a map, too bad; someone else quite possibly does. Just because I'm terrible at this map doesnt mean it should be made unrankable. Sure, it's full of jackhammers. In fact, the whole point of the map was jackhammer practice. The jackhammers still make sense, so it should be rankable. (Also, I'm just using that as an example, but the point is that there are plenty of times when extremely difficult sections or patterns just make sense, including mashes. While mashes should generally be frowned upon, and should only be allowed if the mapper can explain exactly why they want a mash, I do think that in limited cases mashes and extremely difficult patterns should be allowed.)

Bobbias wrote:

Ranking criteria should NOT be based on whether some people with bad hardware can or can't play something.

Similarly, it's never a good idea to completely ban certain things just because they are extremely difficult for most players. This is a skill based game. If someone doesnt have the skill to pass a map, too bad; someone else quite possibly does. Just because I'm terrible at this map doesnt mean it should be made unrankable. Sure, it's full of jackhammers. In fact, the whole point of the map was jackhammer practice. The jackhammers still make sense, so it should be rankable. (Also, I'm just using that as an example, but the point is that there are plenty of times when extremely difficult sections or patterns just make sense, including mashes. While mashes should generally be frowned upon, and should only be allowed if the mapper can explain exactly why they want a mash, I do think that in limited cases mashes and extremely difficult patterns should be allowed.)

Yeah, I agree with you.
Most of the ranking criteria part should be guidelines - whenever a mapper can explain why there should be something(e.g. jackhammers, mashes, slider sea and many more), it should be OK.

Anyway, the point is that to prevent overuse of these styles, not to prevent using them at all.

And for another thing: the difficulty span.

wikipage wrote:

Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be Easy/Normal. You can raise the keyamount with increasing difficulty but not vica versa. Means:
if you have an Easy 4K, you can have a Hard 6K.
If you have an Easy 6K, you can not have a Hard 4K.
If you have an Easy 4K, you can have a Hard 4K (obvious).

The first question is: How easy is "easy/normal"?
Like some of the former member said, there were a great amount of insane "easy" charts in other games. They are insane, very very insane that even the easy diff is harder than most of "insane" diffs.
Now you may say, "Put a limitation on max difficulty on easy diff is OK." In my former post, I have pointed out that due to the o!m playing style, it's really pointless to make an easy-as-pie diff for a few songs.
I have a thought to change the rule to: "Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be visibilly easier than one of other diff." Which means that there should be at least one diff that is clearly easy to insane diff.(The diff may still be very hard, just like oni and inner-oni in taiko.)

The second question is: Why should we put limit on keyamount?
It's clear that high keyamount is not equal to high difficulty. And in many cases, especially in "normal" diffs, with the same note count, higher keyamout map is easier. 4key is hard for the density of notes in the map, and 7/8key is hard for taking care of every key. They all have different aspect on difficulty, so we can expect mapper to use that wisely. Furthermore, many mappers are willing to make a less-keyamount map as an addition to their existing 7key maps. If the rule is applied, they have to reduce the difficulty of their 4key map or to raise the difficulty of 7key maps(Making a map unreasonably harder is more unbearable than making easy thing and that's already in other modes' criteria!) just to satisfy the rule. Wouldn't that be silly?
So my suggestion is that to take away the keyamount rule.

A map is easier when the patterns are simpler and the note density is lower.

A map is easy when a newbie can do them.

I'd rather have a guideline to say (though i'd leave it as a tip) to not use a chord above 6 keys, personally, but hardly to make something unrankable because you have to mash all 7/8 keys.

the rule of "limiting keyamounts" it's so it makes sense, not because we hate having easy 7ks and hard 4ks on a mapset.