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[osu!catch] Dashes and higher-snapped dashes on Rain's

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14
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
203 posts
Joined February 2013
Topic Starter
Greaper
Some BN's noticed a while ago that we do not specify what the allowed snap is for a dash. Although we currently have the following rule in the RC:
Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. If higher-snapped hyperdashes are used, they must not be used in conjunction with other hyperdashes or higher-snapped dashes.


This rule does of course make sense since a higher-snapped hyperdash followed by a higher-snapped dash can be very harsh to play even for rain players. So with this proposal I want to give 2 options to do with this odd situation:

  1. Small change by removing the underlined part of the rule. This seems like the most logical change since we allow any kind of dash snapping right now.
  2. Add a new rule which sets an allowed snap for dashes. Currently we have a rule for hyperdashes to be allowed at 62 ms, adding dashes to this same rule would be a possibility since in my opinion using a snap below between 124 and 62 ms is way to snappy and is something we only see at Overdose level.

So in terms of RC edits this would result in either:
  1. Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. If higher-snapped hyperdashes are used, they must not be used in conjunction with other hyperdashes or higher-snapped dashes.
  2. Hyperdashes and Dashes may be used if the time between the ticks of the desired snapping is 62 ms or higher. As an example, 1/6 hyperdashes and dashes would be allowed at 160 BPM and below, whereas 1/8 hyperdashes and dashes would be allowed at 120 BPM and below.

I am more supporting the 2nd option because when you actually test dashes at 61 ms or below they are barely playable to me and when testing a higher-snapped hyperdash followed by a higher-snapped dash it does play really harsh.
Last edited by Greaper , edited 1 time in total.
MBomb
MBomb
Disagree with the second option here quite heavily, primarily due to the lack of ambiguity ruling in rain difficulties, leading to allowing rather lenient 1/8 dash streams which play fine for this level of difficulty, and the general possibility of dash streams of these kinds in this difficulty which in reality play fine. First option works fine to me.
wonjae
762 posts
Joined October 2014
wonjae
so the way i interpreted the first solution is that we allow ANY TYPE OF DASH after hyperdashes which is a hard no for me due to our lack of a dash snapping definition in rains. Crossing that regulation out means that any type of dash is fine after a hdash since there is nothing that says it isn't allowed.

B/c of that I support the second solution or atleast set up another guideline/rule that disallows a snappy dash to be used in conjunction with a hyperdash. Often times these patterns are super uncomfortable for players to try and hit if it requires a direction change due to the changes in momentum. Players at this skill should be good enough to hit hyperdashes and in my opinion, higher snapped dashes can be much more unforgiving then a hyperdash, which would have me support seeing a ban on both. While MBomb considered 1/8 dash streams being fine in this level of difficulty (which i agree with), I dont think a 1/8 dash should ever be allowed to be used in conjunction to a hyperdash. I would rather we define some dash snapping (62 ms and below should be fine), and then disallow the dashes to be used in conjunction with other hyperdashes.

Also as an aside/personal thing, personally i feel like with the normal rain AR setting of 8.5 - 9 we usually see in maps, 1/8 streams in normal bpm (lets say 170 cuz anime), the streams generally look super dense and awkward to read in the first place, making these dashes quite uncomfortable to play imo.
-Luminate
358 posts
Joined August 2014
-Luminate
If you remove the higher snapped dashes part out it would allow such thing like 62ms antiflow dashes right after a higher snapped hyper and that seems pretty unsatisfying tbh. Something like disallowing antiflow higher-snapped dashes after hyperdashes should be added imo.

Never saw anyone mapped a rain with such dashes snap tho so the second one is probably OK to me (Actually in gameplay sense they are quite harsh when being used more than 2 times, even with no change in direction)
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
The 1st option (striking out higher-snapped dashes of the paragraph) would lead to allow some atypical patterns for Rain difficulties, which would possibly make this kind of difficulties trickier than they are.

The 2nd option would be more coherent to use. I believe most people were going with the assumption that dashes had to be >=62ms, since there's a similar restriction for Platters. Any value under that would feel kind of forced and rather hard to read/play properly (assuming AR=9), and would also approach the hyperwalk territory > tested a 1/8 dash/edge-dash/hyper with BPM 180, all of them can be performed without dashing (42ms).

We can leave the thread open for another week, in case more feedback comes. Otherwise we can merge with the op proposal.
Last edited by Deif , edited 1 time in total.
MBomb
MBomb
I'm still in agreement with wonjae here, if I'm understanding his post correctly. Instead of making a restriction for dashes as a whole, it makes sense to just do a restriction of dashes when in conjunction with HDashes, due to the nature of 1/8 dash streams being possible, and ambiguous movements being allowed in rains.
Secre
Nomination Assessment Team
366 posts
Joined January 2013
Secre
Either variation of 2 would be nice; either:

1. Allow dashes <62MS
2. Disallow dashes <62MS.

I spent a decent time searching and couldnt find any ranked maps w/ an intended dash <62 ms that wasn't walkable, (there's definitely one out there though I think) So I wouldnt be opposed to removing all dashes <62 ms anyways.

Whatever happens with this proposal please do not allow 1 to keep existing because this allows the 62-124ms dashes after higher snapped hdashes which goes against the intended reason why the RC was changed in the first place.
Secre
Nomination Assessment Team
366 posts
Joined January 2013
Secre
Coming back to provide new feedback;

After further playtesting several maps I believe that the limit for allowing a dash after a higher snapped hdash should be >250ms.

This means in most cases, you can not have a 1/2 dash after a 1/4 hdash. I think this is perfectly fine.

As of now this current proposal wouldn't really change anything, lets be honest. Nobody uses 1/4 dashes after a 1/4 hdash anyways which is what this proposal would be fixing. I do not want to have a repeat of the last proposal regarding this rule where the original intent behind the rule just goes forgotten.

Rains nowadays are too hard and I'm sure all of us mappers/modders of catch can agree on that. By disallowing 1/2 dashes after rains again (this used to be the case already but its become commonplace after the rule change from 15-18 months ago) This will help bring back the limiting factors for rains.

As an example, I was recently modding a map here http://puu.sh/FwZbY/10d19a81dc.osz that used a 1/4 hdash into a 1/2 dash. (timestamp 00:51:920 (5,1) - ). I instantly recognized this pattern to be really hard and dont think that it should be allowed to exist in a rain, which is what the new iterations of this rule would still allow.

The only places that a dash should exist after a higher snapped hdash is in 1/1 situations.

Edit: gonna quote my old reply from the previous rc proposal regarding this subject as I think its an interesting idea that could take flight community/forums/posts/6914264
Last edited by Secre , edited 1 time in total.
GIGACHAD
115 posts
Joined October 2017
GIGACHAD
  1. Basic hyperdashes must not be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. If higher-snapped hyperdashes are used, they must not be used in conjunction with other hyperdashes or higher-snapped dashes.


    Completely disagree to even remove higher-snapped dashes from this rule. Adding the possibility to allow higher-snapped dashes after higher-snapped hyperdashes would make Rains more difficult than they already are, plus make the transition from Rains to Overdoses even more difficult than it already is.
  2. Hyperdashes and Dashes may be used if the time between the ticks of the desired snapping is 62 ms or higher. As an example, 1/6 hyperdashes and dashes would be allowed at 160 BPM and below, whereas 1/8 hyperdashes and dashes would be allowed at 120 BPM and below.

I'm fine with this addition to the Ranking Criteria, as this removes the ambiguity of the higher-snapped dashes definition.

Secre wrote:

Coming back to provide new feedback;

After further playtesting several maps I believe that the limit for allowing a dash after a higher snapped hdash should be >250ms.

This means in most cases, you can not have a 1/2 dash after a 1/4 hdash. I think this is perfectly fine.

As of now this current proposal wouldn't really change anything, lets be honest. Nobody uses 1/4 dashes after a 1/4 hdash anyways which is what this proposal would be fixing. I do not want to have a repeat of the last proposal regarding this rule where the original intent behind the rule just goes forgotten.

Rains nowadays are too hard and I'm sure all of us mappers/modders of catch can agree on that. By disallowing 1/2 dashes after rains again (this used to be the case already but its become commonplace after the rule change from 15-18 months ago) This will help bring back the limiting factors for rains.

As an example, I was recently modding a map here http://puu.sh/FwZbY/10d19a81dc.osz that used a 1/4 hdash into a 1/2 dash. (timestamp 00:51:920 (5,1) - ). I instantly recognized this pattern to be really hard and dont think that it should be allowed to exist in a rain, which is what the new iterations of this rule would still allow.

The only places that a dash should exist after a higher snapped hdash is in 1/1 situations.

Edit: gonna quote my old reply from the previous rc proposal regarding this subject as I think its an interesting idea that could take flight community/forums/posts/6914264


I have to agree with Secre here 100%, the jump from Platter to a Rain is already massive, as for the fact that we accept higher-snapped hyperdashes in conjunction with even basic dashes, this requires too much dash control with the small time frame window from a higher-snapped hyperdash.

Restricting the higher-snapped hyperdash to dash control for only Overdoses will make Rains a better introduction to what the next higher difficulty has to offer (1/4 h-dash to 1/2 dash and so on), since Overdoses are very lenient with their rules (apart from spinner gaps). Getting the players comfortable with 1/4 hyperdashes in the Rains would be beneficial for the difficulty curve.

Adding a limiter of a 250ms dash after a higher-snapped hyperdash should be implemented for Rains in my opinion.
Last edited by GIGACHAD , edited 4 times in total.
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
203 posts
Joined February 2013
Topic Starter
Greaper

Secre wrote:

After further playtesting several maps I believe that the limit for allowing a dash after a higher snapped hdash should be >250ms.
Deif and I came to the conclusion that if those snaps are used common knowledge should be applied and thus unneeded to be added as an extra rule.

Although we did decide to push the second option that I suggested, which is:

Hyperdashes and dashes may be used if the time between the ticks of the desired snapping is 62 ms or higher. As an example, 1/6 hyperdashes and dashes would be allowed at 160 BPM and below, whereas 1/8 hyperdashes and dashes would be allowed at 120 BPM and below.
As almost everyone supported this addition.
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
203 posts
Joined February 2013
Topic Starter
Greaper
Created a PR for this see here so will move this to finalized RC proposals
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
just a wording thing, isn't "Hyperdashes and dashes" the same thing as "Dashes"? hypers are dashes too right...
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
203 posts
Joined February 2013
Topic Starter
Greaper
Moved it back (since I guess its not finalized when its not merged yet)

clayton wrote:

just a wording thing, isn't "Hyperdashes and dashes" the same thing as "Dashes"? hypers are dashes too right...
No, hyperdashes are not the same as dashes and since we don't want to confuse someone and want to make this as clear as possible mentioning both here is a must.
Last edited by Greaper , edited 1 time in total.
clayton
1,842 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
:thumbs_up: I'll add it then
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