Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

[added] [Proposal - osu! Standard] Disambiguating terms regarding muted hitnormal

posted
Total Posts
16
Ryuusei Aika
Elite Mapper
1,116 posts
Joined January 2016
Topic Starter
Ryuusei Aika
Currently in osu! standard RC there are terms regarding hitsound feedback:

  1. Do not use keysounds without hitnormal support. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise.
  2. If a hitsound is used as hitnormal, ensure it does not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise.
These rules are inherited from the general RC which states:

  1. All clicked parts of objects must have at least one hitsound...
  2. Hitsounds must be audible... Specific game modes list exceptions to this rule on their respective ranking criteria.
However, I don't think the current standard rule terms adapt to the osu! standard mode well -- a hitsound on any clickable object should be audible and provide enough feedback, which can be reached but not limited to using a hitnormal that's either inaudible or blend with the song, because proper hitsound on additions can also give the feedback the object needs. Related discussions in this map show that current osu! standard RC doesn't make sense because it prohibits the usage of a muted hitnormal + an audible hitsound used as an addition, which can still provide enough feedback.
To the best of my knowledge, having a hitnormal muted or blended with the song per se doesn't break anything mechanically in the game. Hence I propose a rewording of the current osu! standard RC regarding muted hitnormal:

  1. If hitsounds are used on clicked parts of objects, ensure they are audible, and do not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise.
(Edit: my wording is bad please check the replies)

Wording the term in that way ensures it focuses on the spirit of the RC, which is having proper feedback without creating weird loopholes. This also takes keysounding without proper support into consideration since it's a case of "hitsounds blend with the song".
Last edited by Ryuusei Aika , edited 5 times in total.
AnimeStyle
653 posts
Joined December 2012
AnimeStyle
Might wanna change it to
"If hitsounds are used on clickable objects, ensure that either the hitnormals or the additions of them are audible, and do not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise."

Bc with your wording one could still argue that all of them need to be audible -> so no muting HN and then providing feedback via additions for example

(Someone can prob phrase this better than me)

Edit: Didn't write one of the additions cause I can't find a szenario where you wouldn't just not apply them instead of muting, even with HSing around base first
HN are the only thing that is mandatory to exist in some form
Last edited by AnimeStyle , edited 1 time in total.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
"each clickable object must have at least one audible hitsound that does not blend with the song"
Ryuusei Aika
Elite Mapper
1,116 posts
Joined January 2016
Topic Starter
Ryuusei Aika
@2 and 3
Yes what you said makes sense, so I think I can make the wording as something nao said:
  1. Every clickable part of an object must have at least one audible hitsound that does not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise.
Does that sound better?
Last edited by Ryuusei Aika , edited 2 times in total.
AnimeStyle
653 posts
Joined December 2012
AnimeStyle

Nao Tomori wrote:

"each clickable object must have at least one audible hitsound that does not blend with the song"
If hitsounds are used on clicked parts of objects, ensure that at least one of them on each object is audible, and do not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise.

Yeah that prob also works and is less jank

Every clickable part of an object must have at least one audible hitsound, which does not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise.

I think this should work? Either that or just straight up going with non muted:

Every clickable part of an object must have at least one non-muted hitsound, which does not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise.

Is less ambigous but more clunky.
Last edited by AnimeStyle , edited 4 times in total.
Sanch-KK
205 posts
Joined October 2016
Sanch-KK
Sounds reasonable, yet, i can't think of an actual situation when you would really need to use muted hitnormal with an addition. If anything else, this would just create more cases where the map has subpar, yet, technically rankable feedback, promoting unnatural and unintuitive hitsounding practices.

People who know what they are doing and exactly what they want to achieve don't resort to practices such as using muted hitnormal on clickable objects, because they understand ways to achieve the exact same result with different means, but newer mappers would just do something that is allowed without understanding the basics and end up with fundamentally flawed hitsounding.

Like, it's such a niche case where it's not even clear if it will provide something of benefit (e.g. simplification of the hitsounding process) that it's just not worth the risk of allowing imo.
The fact that this, first in 15 years precedent came not from some map hitsounded in groundbreaking way and utilizing this technique amazingly but from a map with really questionable feedback only proves this point.

So, i propose the following rewording instead:

  1. Ensure hitnormal element in a set applied to the clickable object is audible and does not blend with the song.
    Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise.
(Formatting isn't my forte i'm very very sorry)
Last edited by Sanch-KK , edited 2 times in total.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu

228 wrote:

Sounds reasonable, yet, i can't think of an actual situation when you would really need to use muted hitnormal with an addition.
e.g. you have an instrumental part where you think each of the hitsounds should be a whistle and only a whistle. In that scenario you'd have the choice to
  1. make the hitnormal the whistle (i think this is the way people usually go here)
  2. make the hitnormal silent and use whistles on all the objects
the second solution would achieve your intended effect even if the player chooses to ignore your beatmap's hitsounds for their skin's, but 2. is currently running into the problem of like 3 conflicting rules and guidelines regarding hitsounds making it a clusterfuck to even consider

the second part is arguably more convoluted but gets your intention across to a wider audience

Here's a take on nao's solution
All clicked parts of objects must have at least one hitsound that does not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise.

I also had "Keysounds must not be used without supporting samples.", but that is kind of the same thing so it feels redundant
Last edited by Okoayu , edited 1 time in total.
AnimeStyle
653 posts
Joined December 2012
AnimeStyle
Oko's first half of the suggestion is good I'm just iffy on forcing HS on sliderends and spinners.
A lot of songs have really faint sounds that gloss by for most people and forcing it always even if it's just a tick is kinda eh especially in the rule section.

Current RC is better in that regard since it's just a guideline and only forces HS for sliderends/spinnerends with distinct sounds in the song and that aren't placed on held notes.

Edit: Wrote too much unneeded fluff.
Last edited by AnimeStyle , edited 4 times in total.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
OK just removed that part where i tried merging the other annoying hitsound guideline into it for now
AnimeStyle
653 posts
Joined December 2012
AnimeStyle
Considering the set in question got ranked without any hiccups, I feel like this can be put forward without issues :D

Imo Oko's latest version is the most concise/shortened version that still gets the intent across. Is there anything that is still missing from it or can we push this?
Ryuusei Aika
Elite Mapper
1,116 posts
Joined January 2016
Topic Starter
Ryuusei Aika

AnimeStyle wrote:

Considering the set in question got ranked without any hiccups, I feel like this can be put forward without issues :D

Imo Oko's latest version is the most concise/shortened version that still gets the intent across. Is there anything that is still missing from it or can we push this?
Garden said we can potentially keep the line about keysounds, so I think it'd be nice if we can keep it as an example. Also I think it's better to put audible in the new rules too to be more clear.

All clicked parts of objects must have at least one audible hitsound that does not blend with the song. Players do not receive enough feedback otherwise. Using keysounds as hitnormal without other distinct additional hitsounds, for example, is not allowed.
AnimeStyle
653 posts
Joined December 2012
AnimeStyle
I tried rephrasing/including keysounds, but every version is just redundant.

Keysounds either
A: Do something entirely different, so they are audible and don't blend with the song.
B: Mimic the song -> blend with it and don't provide feedback (Infringes on RC alr)

The only issue is when someone would do A and place it on a hitnormal, leading to a quite boring/jank base/template HS (or inaudible if soft/low general volumes are used).
Preventing Keysounds on hitnormal is nonsense though, since you can still use additions/other 2 hitnormal to provide sufficient feedback.

If we really want to add them, just for additional clarifaction,I'd just add:

All clicked parts of objects must have at least one audible hitsound that does not blend with the song. Using keysounds as hitnormal requires additional hitsound support. Players do not receive enough feedback in both cases.
Last edited by AnimeStyle , edited 1 time in total.
Ryuusei Aika
Elite Mapper
1,116 posts
Joined January 2016
Topic Starter
Ryuusei Aika

AnimeStyle wrote:

I tried rephrasing/including keysounds, but every version is just redundant.

Keysounds either
A: Do something entirely different, so they are audible and don't blend with the song.
B: Mimic the song -> blend with it and don't provide feedback (Infringes on RC alr)

The only issue is when someone would do A and place it on a hitnormal, leading to a quite boring/jank base/template HS (or inaudible if soft/low general volumes are used).
Preventing Keysounds on hitnormal is nonsense though, since you can still use additions/other 2 hitnormal to provide sufficient feedback.

If we really want to add them, just for additional clarifaction,I'd just add:

All clicked parts of objects must have at least one audible hitsound that does not blend with the song. Using keysounds as hitnormal requires additional hitsound support. Players do not receive enough feedback in both cases.
Think we are not banning keysounds on hitnormal since we just list it as an example, and we also explain how its usage is justified so should be fine as it is
AnimeStyle
653 posts
Joined December 2012
AnimeStyle
Did not understand it as banning the combo don't worry - that statement was just in reagards to what I listed before.

If you feel like an extra example is needed (and allowed to be included) then sure why not.
Your last version should be good then.
Ryuusei Aika
Elite Mapper
1,116 posts
Joined January 2016
Topic Starter
Ryuusei Aika
The change is merged.
AnimeStyle
653 posts
Joined December 2012
AnimeStyle
Thank you, looks good :D
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 16