Well mostly all mappers already know about CTB specific maps no longer being rankable because of there not being a specific set of guidelines.
Well I and some others would like to change this.
I might have heard some rumors about blah blah blah might have already been made guidelines but I don't know.
Anyways, some mappers don't wanna be limited to just standard and taiko specific.

EDIT: Here is a quick summary of EZ2CATCH

It is pretty much like CTB in osu! You catch the fruits to the beat of the music by moving left in right. The major difference between this and EZ2CATCH is in EZ2CATCH you can use a mouse (in osu! you can use a mouse as well only in relax mode though)

Here are the guidelines. (A collaboration of myself and other users)

POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay.

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders.
http://puu.sh/1dEA 
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders.

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. Using a tick rate 4 with a fast slider velocity makes it so much more easier to combo break. (Try making a hard fun map, not one that makes the player mad)

•Something you should not do is use 2x sliders that kick back at a very fast pace. (Play Banned Forever mapped by Blue Dragon for an example)
This creates more pain then it does fun and not only that, they are incredibly easy to mess up on.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun.  So use these with care please.

•The authentic approach rate to match EZ2CATCH is AR8 however if your [b]SONG[/b] fits AR9, use AR9 if you would like. Use it with care.

•No hyper dash cancelling fruits.

•Map must be FCable.
EX: No hyper dash cancelling fruits. Those make it impossible to make it to the next fruit thus breaking the combo.

•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 5. Anything smaller should not be used.

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits.

•Comboing is different in CTB so when using sliders with slider ends. In CTB, slider ends count as 2 fruits (or more if you are using a kickback slider) on a plate so count your combos wisely and don't make them super huge.

•If you have more than 1 CTB difficulty (say 2-3) please make sure it has a decent spread such as NH, ENH, NHI (etc)

Special Thanks to the people who really helped me out quite a bit:
Haneii
Helped me get this thing started and going! Helped me formulate some rules as well.

Louis_Cyphre
Pointed out quite a few things that are unrankable when I first asked for help.

arien666
Would not leave me alone about this. Added quite a few guidelines from him as well!

DeathxShinigami
Did a nice massive clean up of the OP, helped me clarify some things, made some guidelines even better.
Added and removed a couple of guidelines as well.

I would also like to thank these guys for their contributions as well:
Kitsunemimi
Inamaru
Shiirn

Edit: Add-on possibilities to the list above but not sure if they should. So the list below would be a if it gets a lot of yes's, goes to guidelines above.

A rather good point was brought to my attention.  It might be best to make CTB difficulties go for Approval instead of ranking. Why? Well for (I would say at least) the majority of mappers it might be hard to make a legit insane diff on standard while not being mediocre on CTB. Now before you rage about taiko, Standard and Taiko work so well because Taiko merely needs hitsounds unlike CTB.

Edit 2 (By Zelos):
If you wanna talk to me in IRC about these rules/guidelines, feel free to forum pm me about it and I will try to make some time available for it. It would certainly be the easiest way to get noticed plus easiest way to update the OP as well.

Hey look an Odaril edit

Please post comments, ideas, suggestions, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism on what you think and it may or may not be added to the list of possible guidelines based on the consensus of people.

And lastly, PLEASE no utter b*tching about stupid things.

My edit was just this link:

CtB diff modding queue

No one sought my help? shame.

Brief mention on AR9 would be nice as I still see some ctb mappers use it.

I was thinking about this things too but I think I was a bit late. Yeah basically I'm a Taiko mapper so I was busy with mapping Taiko lol
(Yeah and I'm no specialist in CtB.)

I'm concentrating to describe how to make the map more than restrictions. (Theoretical basis, maybe.)
My theory is based on 'horizontal spacing'. I think if the fruits are falling randomly it can't be reasonable enough to make it ranked.
Do you want to hear about it more?

I'd like to hear that, lepidon.


Another few guidelines:

Catch the Beat difficulties should not exceed either 20million points OR 10-20% more than the highest standard difficulty gives, whichever is higher (common sense, please)

Overal difficulty does not affect much in catch the beat except for spinners, keep this in mind.

No hyperfruits that cover two notes 1/8th apart. Hyperfruits must cover at the minimum 1/4, and depending on the BPM should never occur more than once at a time at 1/4. This would be an outright ranking/approval REQUIREMENT, not a suggestion.

there goes cold pizza...

Cold pizza's fine, ainit? it's standard anyway.

Hmmm. After reading through this proposal, it seems it's pretty thorough IMO(and also reading after what other suggestions are made).

It would seem like these guidelines would be sufficient for ranking a CtB-only map.

I hope CtB-only maps may be soon rankable. I wish the best of luck to you in hopes of getting this approved.

Also, a bit of math on hyperfruits:

OD does not affect hyperfruits.

Using circle size 4:
Ryuuta can travel 360 pixel units across the screen over the course of 300 milliseconds. This means that the maximum horizontal slider speed that ryuuta can physically travel without a fruit turning into a hyper one is a horizontal 720bpm. This is the BASELINE.

HOWEVER, there is some leniency in hyperfruit coding. Ryuuta's actual maximum speed is the equivalent of an 800bpm slider (tested several times). This implies that baseline hyperfruits give a roughly 10% leniency in distance.

The doubletime mod severely reduces this leniency, to the point where some jumps are impossible (Doubletime will require the equivalent of a 900bpm slider to show a hyperfruit, which is more than Ryuuta's maximum speed of 800)

Halftime, on the other hand, severely INCREASES this leniency, and also changes how hyperfruits work. In halftime, you will move to the note at a faster speed, and will always arrive much earlier than if played regularly. I didn't test this thoroughly since lol halftime, but it seems to increase the leniency to a whopping 20-30%.


What this all shows you is basically this:
Ryuuta's base travel speed is 400bpm horizontal. This is not affected by circle size. If you go any faster, the player will need to tap dash every so often to keep up, regardless of circle size, again.
Don't use horizontal sliders faster than, say, 600bpm. While ryuuta can technically go faster, in hectic play it just isn't fun to need pixel-perfect jumps rather than following the rhythm.



Also, i'm 100% sure that circle size DOES affect hyperfruits - namely, that a bigger ryuuta can catch things more efficiently so the leniency might be changed? not sure, but i haven't tested it thoroughly yet, so i'll get back to you on that. This was all tested using circle size 4, since that seems to be the most common right now.


EDIT: Also, circle size 3 is fucking huge, circle size 4 should be the minimum if anything. Even size 5 is fun to play with once in a while.

More math:
Ryuuta's catching width obviously changes with circle size, here are the following widths:
Note- ryuuta's catching is symettrical, for simplicity's sake i will be listing the size of ryuuta as a representation of how the hitboxes for fruit work.
Size 3 = 108 pixels wide
Size 4 = 96 pixels wide
Size 5 = 84 pixels wide
This pattern continues in both directions.
Something to note is that the difference here isn't actually all that large, while ryuuta and the fruits get noticeably bigger, the actual catch width doesn't expand by that much, meaning circle size is far more psychological than actual.

This affects hyperfruit spawning somehow, i'm not quite entirely sure how yet. This width is probably factored into how far ryuuta's "reach" is in spawning calculations combined with his overall maximum speed.

An easy way to imagine this is that the slider circle is how big ryuuta is, while the notes must have their center within that slider circle to be catchable without moving

Well, please just make sure how those settings affect the map.

HP drain: This determines how much gauge would be depleted when you get a miss, and spontaneous decreaing of norma guage.
Circle size: Size of fruits, plate, etc.
Approach Rate: As I know only this one affects the speed of falling fruits. (BPM does not affects.) To be honest I don't think we need to regulate it unless it exceeds 10. (Which is impossible in editor)
Overal Difficulty: Affects how many fruits will appear in spinner. <-- Wrong

-----
Making a regulation is actually based on quite simple doctrine: DO NOT MAKE IMPOSSIBLE THINGS, lol

-----
Ok, let's talk about that 'horizontal spacing' idea.

When I first tried to make guest Taiko maps there were some conflicts between Taiko mappers and some BATs. To justify Taiko maps, I thought I need to explain how Taiko is different from osu standard. (Though I never explain this before cause conflicts never happened again lol) That's why I tried to explain how special modes are different with osu standard and this would explain why those 'special maps' are needed.

Let's think about which elements are important in osu standard maps: beat placement, spacing, hitsound, etc, etc, etc. CtB map actually shares lots of those elements with osu standard map, but one critical thing is different: spacing. In osu standard map, 2D spacing is used, but in CtB map only horizontal spacing works and vertical spacing is ignored. osu standard mappers makes the map which suits well to the music, but as osu standard mappers does not consider how the map is played in CtB, those falling fruits only partially follow the music, not fully. So in order to have good and fun CtB playing, we need CtB only maps.

But we can't make the map with random falling fruits(unless the music is random lol), and mappers need some standardized method to make maps. Also we need some standard to convince MATs, BATs and other mappers to make it rankable. What I suggest is, making the map based on 'horizontal spacing', as it's the biggest differed element between CtB and osu standard maps. The idea itself is simple: basically, time difference between notes and horizontal spacing between notes should be proportional. Yeah it's really similar with spacing idea in osu standard maps, so I expect lots of mappers can adopt this idea quite easily.

Of course lots of variations can be made based on that idea, like putting jumps or something, and those things are called 'mapping techniques'. I think we can discuss about basic mapping techniques too, to give guidence to future CtB mappers.

----
EZ2CATCH can be quite nice reference, but there's critical a different between CtB and EZ2CATCH: In EZ2CATCH you can move the character freely(like playing CtB with relaxing mod), but in CtB speed of the character is fixed. Lots of maps and ideas from EZ2CATCH can't be implemented that simply to CtB.

EDIT: Check how they play, lol

@DeathXshinigami I'm sorry. I had not known you played CTB.

I actually had the AR 9 down earlier before this was way submitted. I was told by some of the others to make 8 minimum to make authentic and stuff but I will have that in a pending consensus list.

@Lepidopodus Yes I would love to hear more. Feedback is always welcome.

@Shiirn alrite. I guess I can change the CS thing for 4 allowed.

Also Shiirn explain this a little more.

No hyperfruits that cover two notes 1/8th apart. Hyperfruits must cover at the minimum 1/4, and depending on the BPM should never occur more than once at a time at 1/4. This would be an outright ranking/approval REQUIREMENT, not a suggestion.

I for some odd reason can not understand this.
Explain this a little more to me.

Edit: Reading lepi post.

I suppose we also need one set distance snap? I'm not exactly sure.

Support.
I will try to think some suggestion for it.
In fact I have over 10 CTB diff lol.

Edit: First thing i want to say → CTB diffs should be FCable.

KanaRin wrote:

Support.
I will try to think some suggestion for it.
In fact I have over 10 CTB diff lol.

Edit: First thing i want to say → CTB diffs should be FCable.

I'm almost sure that i put in the OP that they must be SS-able

@Zelos: Uh, 'one set distance snap'?
@KanaRin: That's the basic, lol. Due to characteristics of CtB I guess there's something that absolutely imposible to FC, maybe? Several things are stated in 1st post....

To be honest I made some CtB test maps, but those are just for some 'experiment'. The problem is, I'm no good at CtB so I can't rule out which is possible and which is impossible.

Shiirn wrote:

Also, i'm 100% sure that circle size DOES affect hyperfruits - namely, that a bigger ryuuta can catch things more efficiently so the leniency might be changed? not sure, but i haven't tested it thoroughly yet, so i'll get back to you on that. This was all tested using circle size 4, since that seems to be the most common right now.

Yes this is absolutely correct. One circle size different can change from a hyper dash fruit to a normal fruit.

Play Astrosexy by mtmcl on with easy mod then without easy mod. Quite noticable in that map.

lepidopodus wrote:

@Zelos: Uh, 'one set distance snap'?

Well maybe i should phrase that better.

(but im not exactly sure how to phrase it any better)

i think im trying to say find the median of absurdity and barely moving.

The combo rules for standard apply here. So you may have a combo that is 16-18 long at the most.

No need to be exactly same with combo rules in osu standard as combo is much less important in CtB. Let's just make sure that too long combo will disrupt game play.
Maybe putting new combo based on measures would be good... I just felt that it would be better to see combo that ends regulary than randomly.

EDIT: Ok, seems people are not that interested in horizontal spacing theory, maybe it would be better to me to just sit back and concentrate on making Taiko maps...

EDIT2: Anyway I just wanted to say that the map should be reasonable, and should be more interested and more sufficient to play than playing osu standard maps with CtB mode. I just wanted to players think about it.

Time to learn more about CtB. I support this.

This question might be meaningless,
could it be possble to map in following constalation: 2x Osu!, 2xTaiko, 2xCtB? That means in every game-mode one hard and easy diff..
Asking that because I have the feeling this would happen one day to some one and should be disscussed with peppy about it?

I think that's all from my site, good luck.

@^: Possible, I guess, if the CtB map is rankable. But personally that wouldn't work that nicely cause majority of players are osu standard players.

The real question here is whether peppy is interested in allowing CTB-specific difficulties to be ranked with the right set of guidelines, because without the premise that he is indeed interested, this thread is pretty meaningless.

I just wanted to chip in by saying that the map must, of course, follow the rhythm of the song and have a logical spacing alignment. Random jumps, randomly-timed notes, and notespams where there shouldn't be any are no-nos.

i support this.
I really want more ctb beatmap~~

KRZY wrote:

The real question here is whether peppy is interested in allowing CTB-specific difficulties to be ranked with the right set of guidelines, because without the premise that he is indeed interested, this thread is pretty meaningless.

I just wanted to chip in by saying that the map must, of course, follow the rhythm of the song and have a logical spacing alignment. Random jumps, randomly-timed notes, and notespams where there shouldn't be any are no-nos.

Whether Peppy is interested or not is besides the point.
I just remember seeing an old thread in the features request with a post by James2250: Maybe if you create a set of guidelines it might get more attention.

So who knows, maybe after sometime if peppy isn't interested, it will make him interested?

Edit: well with enough demand, it DOES get noticed at least. look at some random feature requests. a big chunk of them have peppy posts.

Zelos wrote:

Whether Peppy is interested or not is besides the point.
I just remember seeing an old thread in the features request with a post by James2250: Maybe if you create a set of guidelines it might get more attention.

That is true and I still agree with that statement I made back then. However as I have mentioned to arken and a few other people that wanted to start on this thread, before you get too involved in creating the guidelines and trying to make them official you need a very solid case for why catch the beat needs to have its own specific difficulties mapped and why the osu! standard difficulties that are mapped are not enough for ctb already (It looks like it was mentioned by Lepid quickly already)

One of your main concerns right now should be convincing peppy/devs of that as you can have the nicest list of rules put together but if you don't have a reason why they should exist in the first place it wont get very far. Just my opinion on it~

•Use an approach rate of 8 as this is the authentic approach in the game of EZ2CATCH

9 is ok too.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please.

Well there are different ways of "abusing".
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/24722&m=0 730+ combo. Just impossible to catch stream-jump walls Possible with HR+ HT.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/27638&m=0 beginning part. 200 BPM stream-jump walls. Impossible with anything.
So some hyper jumps are even impossible with hyper fruits, So please add it in guidelines, i call that Stream-jump walls.

About sliders. Let you know guys, that hyperdash works on big droplets, so some really fast sliders are possible, if it's really fast and it dose not has any small droplets. So such sliders with hyperfruits~~hyperdrop x n~~hyperfruit can be rankable.
Well not good example: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=81594&m=2 (CTB diff)

•No hyper dash cancelling fruits. The map must be SS-able.

I'd say - do not abuse with jumps that are near to "hyperdash jump", that are close to go above limit of the standart jumps.
Also some maps are really hard to SS, so if you write FC-ble should be better.

•Burai Sliders: These technically in CTB specific maps could become rankable due to being able to actually seeing the ending in CTB mode unlike standard mode. Ask in IRC if you don't know what a Burai Slider is.

Nah, useless words. It's obvious.


I'd like to add:

* No ninja fruits. Fruits that are stacked with spinner end and start.
http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=19043&m=2 <-- i hate this map <_<
And good example, very well known Reikin's map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/1785 600+ combo ninja fruits.

Still need to adjust guidelines, then start supporting this o/

James2250 wrote:

Zelos wrote:

Whether Peppy is interested or not is besides the point.
I just remember seeing an old thread in the features request with a post by James2250: Maybe if you create a set of guidelines it might get more attention.

That is true and I still agree with that statement I made back then. However as I have mentioned to arken and a few other people that wanted to start on this thread, before you get too involved in creating the guidelines and trying to make them official you need a very solid case for why catch the beat needs to have its own specific difficulties mapped and why the osu! standard difficulties that are mapped are not enough for ctb already (It looks like it was mentioned by Lepid quickly already)

One of your main concerns right now should be convincing peppy/devs of that as you can have the nicest list of rules put together but if you don't have a reason why they should exist in the first place it wont get very far. Just my opinion on it~

One of the main reasons to do so is that because a very large chunk of the osu population that do not play ctb find it to be "the noob game mode" since the learning curve is so friendly and helpful, the exact opposite of taiko. The number of actually challenging maps in ctb are far and in between, and very little goes on with actual ranking other than "lol hidden and get more spinner fruits than the other guy". I for one was able to rocket to over two billion points without much effort, and since then i've been playing almost exclusively difficult maps so I can get better. This means i've been playing roughly the same 20-30 maps out of my thousands. This ratio is rather pathetic. The current actually ranked ctb maps are no better, they're almost outright stupid in their spacing and how they work as a whole.
There are also many things that can be possible with ctb that just plain aren't with standard, such as streamjumps. Go Beyond was, and still is, an excellent map to practice perfect stream timing, but once you get that down that chunk is outright boring.

I don't know a thing about CTB but... when you talk about some things being "impossible" to catch, are they actually IMPOSSIBLE meaning even a bot would fail or it is just stupidly hard for every CTB player?

And I know this may sound bad since I already said I know pretty much nothing about this mode but, it actually is way easier than standar or taiko, from the point you're basically playing standar with relax + fixed cursor speed (yeah I know you can dash and stuff).

Wishy22 wrote:

I don't know a thing about CTB but... when you talk about some things being "impossible" to catch, are they actually IMPOSSIBLE meaning even a bot would fail or it is just stupidly hard for every CTB player?

They are possible for Auto to pass because it ignores the dash speed limit (see what it does during spinners?)

They are physically impossible because hyperfruits do not spawn if the next "note" is a droplet.

Example:
This shows a normal hyperfruit that is catchable.
This shows the exact same pair of fruits that cover the same distance and time, however, as it is a slider, and longer than X ms (depends on bpm), it spawns a droplet and this causes the hyperfruit to disappear, making it physically impossible.

@James2250: Yeah that is why I made that theory... To justify the reason of existence of CtB-only map.
@Shiirn: Uh, I don't think difficulty problem can be a good reason, to be honest. Mappers tried to map unreasonably hard CtB maps and that was the one reason of previous failures. We need to explain why CtB-only diffs are better than playing standard maps, and that's why I suggest concept of horizontal spacing.
@Wishy22: Well, auto can do almost everything even if that is actually impossible, and it also applies to osu standard & taiko. If auto misses, most of cases are just lags, but some of them have definate reason.

Imagine if we had hyperdroplets. I wonder if there is any chance of that being implemented, that will make CTB mapping so easier. The number of scores that will be disrupted by this implementation is minimal (strangeprogram is the only one I can think of right now), so maybe it's a good deal.

Also, ignore me if this has been mentioned by Shiirn's math before, but there is one more type of "uncatchable" pattern, and this does not include sliders.


This is from Risk Junk-G - Candy Galy [ignore's Another]. Those fruits are uncatchable, because each of them are pixel jumps. This should also be considered when mapping.

Aren't hyperdroplets available in CtB Diff of "Fur elise"?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23916

In fact, I have discuss with Alace this topic last year, but I think I have been ignored for a long time..
.So I still wonder BATs will conscientiously looking at this kind of thread...but anyway, I will give my opinions.

Firstly, I support the ctb specific map can be rankable.

with the ctb player increasing, the level of all the players is running very high, simple osu! standard trasferring map cannot satisfy them. So they start to do their own map.
Of course, most of their maps is doing not well because they are just beginning to map, not even have a mapping experience in standard mode.
But there is still some of the maps is good enough to be approved, or even ranked.

However, we should solve some problems before we can accept ctb spiecific map.

1. Is there any difference between ctb specific map and standard osu transferring map?

that means, is there any patterns that can appear in ctb specific map but rarely see in osu transferring map? If there is a specific pattern and it is really fun for playing, there will be a strong point of making CTB specific map approvable.

2. Is it really need to make a CTB specific map approvable?

I think this is the main reason that BATs do not accept ctb map.
Taiko map has its reason to become specific map, (e.g. Slider Velocity, continuous red circle, unexpected 1/8, etc), but it seems that when osu map transferring to ctb map, everying goes well unless some bug jump(impossible Jump without hyperdash). But this kind of jump we can only see very few maps in the whole ranked maps. So, people who do not play ctb mode often will say that there is no need to make a CTB specific map, using transferring map is enough. We need to find more evidence to prove that ctb map is needed.

3.If ctb map is rankable, who will be the modder, and who will adjust the map can be rank or not?

This should be the biggest problem. As we all know that, BATs/MATs usually do not play CTB often, They do not have enough ctb experience. So it is really difficult for them to adjust which of the map is rankable, which is perfect, which cannot be ranked. Also, it is impossible to accept mode-specific modder, that will make things even complicated. So i think, for ctb map ranable, this is the biggest problem.
for this problem, I think we can give some of the MATs who have enough ctb experience to mod ctb-map and gives the permittion of ranking ctb map.

OK, If we need a guideline now, I am happy to share my point of view:



1. for the opinion in song setup:

2. for the arrangement.


3 for the timing.

4. others


I will update it once I have new ideas.

Oops.. this is the longest post I have ever post= =

Louis Cyphre wrote:

I'd say - do not abuse with jumps that are near to "hyperdash jump", that are close to go above limit of the standart jumps.
Also some maps are really hard to SS, so if you write FC-ble should be better.

No, it has to be SS. There may be points that are very difficult which are hard to SS, but someone has to prove that that section is SS-able. Could be done with a bot which is limited to ryuuta's actual speed.

KRZY wrote:

pixel jumps

As this would make the map un SS-able, yes. However, I really don't understand the term "pixel jump". And I don't quite understand how or why this is so impossible. You can hit 2 notes, but you can't hit the 3rd...

Even if ranking never happens, these are guidelines which every mapper should follow (except for taiko) if they want their standard osu map to be a not-impossible CTB map.

Krzysiek wrote:

Aren't hyperdroplets available in CtB Diff of "Fur elise"?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23916

those are slider ticks. Regular notes are the "300" note, slider ticks are the "100" note, and slider droplets are the "50" note. Their scores are different, though (slider droplets are worth 10 each, regardless of multiplier).

Unless I am mistaken, there is no accuracy on CTB. It's either a hit or a miss, period. If you miss a note, it's worth 0%. And all notes count for accuracy including slider droplets.

Slider ticks CAN be hyper, even if the next note is a slider droplet.

Just some thoughts...

ZHSteven wrote:

1. Is there any difference between ctb specific map and standard osu transferring map?

At least I stated theoretical basis about this one, and also I think we can find some 'mapping techniques' to make the map fun enough which can't be achieved in most osu standard maps. (To be honest I think this should be done before setting regulations, but who cares.)

ZHSteven wrote:

2. Is it really need to make a CTB specific map approvable?

If differences are stated enough, I think people will accept it.

ZHSteven wrote:

3.If ctb map is rankable, who will be the modder, and who will adjust the map can be rank or not?

Think about current system of Taiko modding & ranking. Currently no one regulates it, and I think CtB diffs end up like that too. There were several efforts to place some supervisor who is good at Taiko mapping & modding, but all of them were failed.

ZHSteven wrote:

3 for the timing.

Nah let's just use basic SV(need to set high enough if you want to use fast sliders cause it represent the highest speed of slider in CtB), uninherited section with custom SV, and slant sliders(stiff slope means you don't need to move that much to catch the slider properly). Timing is usually unchangable cause it's characteristic value of the music. (Or at least most of mappers now don't think it as changable thing. Oh, and there's no limitation in the number of uninheritted section actually, usually the music itself does not need multiple offset.)

ziin wrote:

KRZY wrote:

pixel jumps

As this would make the map un SS-able, yes. However, I really don't understand the term "pixel jump". And I don't quite understand how or why this is so impossible. You can hit 2 notes, but you can't hit the 3rd...

Let's say you have jumps from left to right. If it's a pixel jump, you can *just barely* catch it if Ryuuta catches the first fruit with the last few pixels on the left side of his plate and dashes instantly. You will be able to catch the second fruit with the far right side of the plate.
If there is another pixel jump right after that, in the same direction, it's impossible to catch that because you are not in the correct position (you caught the fruit with the right side of the plate, so you'll be ~1 fruit-width short of catching the third one, even if you played frame- and pixel-perfect).
Hope that was understandable xD

For bug jump, here is the screenshot for your referance.


See the difference? the first long stream doesn't have hyperdash, whereas the smaller jump have hyperdash.

if you want to know more, plz click here~~

edit:

Krzysiek wrote:

Aren't hyperdroplets available in CtB Diff of "Fur elise"?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23916

You'd better not place some so called "hyper-droplet" in sliders. Because when this kind of thing appears, your slider is nearly a bug slider.
only some experinced CTB mapper like LC can handle this..

Same as KRZY there are an impossible pattern how in this song http://osu.ppy.sh/s/18009
Also I think the minimal AP ought be 5 because too slow fruits are boring. And the max AP ought be 9 because 10 is very fast I think.
And maps like this http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2 (are possible), should be unrankable because has no FC'ed Except ExGon but with EasyMode.

Anything that can help just let me know.

@James2250

I believe the main reason is to expand the mapping rankables beyond the limiting just taiko and standard.
I also think that if taiko mappers got their taiko, why not let CTB mappers have there CTB?

@ZHSteven

saying we need evidence that CTB is needed? that is kinda like saying Taiko was absolutely needed in the game
I'm saying neither were at all required but were added into the game play modes to make the experience more fun for some.
If taiko were allowed some guidelines, why not at least attempt to let CTB have theirs?

lepidopodus wrote:

ZHSteven wrote:

3.If ctb map is rankable, who will be the modder, and who will adjust the map can be rank or not?

Think about current system of Taiko modding & ranking. Currently no one regulates it, and I think CtB diffs end up like that too. There were several efforts to place some supervisor who is good at Taiko mapping & modding, but all of them were failed.

I don't see why we need an a taiko or CTB regulation team.
Normal modders will sometimes mod taiko to. (Krisom wood be a good example)
Normal modders will sometimes mod CTB also. (Faust did so at some points I believe)

If a team were to ever be needed, its just to check authentic songs.

First of all, I totally support this (I have no stars left though)

About the guidelines proposed:

Zelos wrote:

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders.

They are a bit tricky to hit, but they're OK for me.
I think they should be rankable if they doesn't need to get hyperdashed (In this example, the sliders are at 2x BPM)

Zelos wrote:

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4.

I'm totally against Tick Rate = 4. In CTB it means that if you drop a single droplet in a slider, you miss the combo, as tick rate = 4 makes every droplet a big droplet (In this case FC = SS).
TR between 0,5 - 2 should be fine imo.

And finally a suggestion. As osu! standard and taiko have names for their own difficulties (Easy/Normal/Hard/Insane - Kantan/Futsuu/Muzukashii/Oni)... why don't we give specific names for CTB difficulties?

Deif wrote:

why don't we give specific names for CTB difficulties?

Someone grab the difficulty names from that one game - oh wait, they're similar anyway. hurp

I'm cool with this, supporting :3

the conversion between standard maps to ctb maps is considerably simpler and much more straightforward than standard to taiko

while you've laid out some interesting points regarding ctb only patterns, it is simply just too much of a fringe case to implement. taiko maps are allowed simply because standard osu maps do not convert intrinsically well to taiko maps due to them being a completely different game style entirely (from movement precision to rhythm precision). ctb was designed to run interchangeably with standard maps, and i firmly believe that is the way things will be until the ctb community develops a meta which is strong enough to make us consider otherwise.

however, perhaps we could investigate enabling ranked scores on certain approval maps where ctb difficulty is seen to be equal/greater to that of standard in order to bolster competition a little

that's just my view on it anyway

The meta for catch the beat players is largely based in languages other than english (chinese, korean, and japanese players have a much higher concentration of ctb players to standard than, say, england or the united states) while those other-native-language players most likely do not speak english well enough to formulate something like this. If you take a look at some of the ctb threads in other languages you'll see they're far more involved and don't have the "LOL CTB IS RETARDED" mentality that 90% of english-native (or certain russians i won't mention) osu! players have.

Let me reverse the question then, is there any reason why a CTB map shouldn't be playable in osu! standard?, and before you reply please provide something other than the fact that the Y axys on CTB can be ignored because that's just plain lazyness, as far as i know ryuuta moves slower than regular mouse movement, since the mouse can move as fast as your hand, i still haven't seen anything that can make a CTB map unplayable on osu! standard

Its like Ephemeral said, the conversion between Standard and CTB modes are alike to the point they are almost the same. It's more so about how the standard map is created. A properly made "normal" map can have the balance to be used in all 3 modes. But putting Taiko aside because of how the format is, I really can't see ctb maps being rankable anytime soon since it can be equally just as good with the map in standard mode as long as it is properly mapped (and tested).

Another thing, players/modders SHOULD NEVER bash against another mode because they feel it "sucks" or "too easy" or "noobish". Its really childish to think so since every mode has its ups, downs, and technical stuff.

Last, to even attempt to make ctb rankable, guidelines and rules must be made for it as well which can be a complicated process of trial and error and has to be proven to be worth having its own direction of being ranked/approved. Though, I didn't make the game myself either but as far as I see like I said, Standard and CTB share almost the same platform of note placement. Its just how the mapper chooses to make the map and its "focus" (i.e. - Should I care about how the map plays in Taiko? Are the speed ups and slow downs going to mess with how CTB move?). Its just my thoughts on it honestly, not something set to stone. But still, its better to think about these things and how to address it than to only complain and do nothing about it.

Adding my two cents:
Why don't you guys suggest improvements to the CtB mode? I think it'd be fun to see more stuff implemented on the mode than just moving the plate from left to right.
Maybe by doing so, the game modes (or how they translate into each other when switching) will be different enough to make CtB specific maps rankeable on their own (not that I agree with that anyways).

So :P?

There are already many mappers that make osu maps with the express thought of them being enjoyable on catch the beat (just as often they worry about taiko as well) as well, however, these mappers are far and in between. Something like a ctb-only diff would be rather rare comparatively speaking since it's very possible to make a good CtB map with exclusively standard, however, it is not always feasible to make a pattern that follows the music, fits the mapping style used before, and fits both standard and CtB

whymeman: what's sad is that is exactly what many, many players and mappers, especially english-speakers, think about catch the beat. CtB has a very intuitive playing curve, you can start right off on insanes and do perfectly fine compared to other modes which leads to people thinking that it "is too easy" and "caters only to noobs / unskilled / can't-handle-the-other-modes" players, but it has just as much of a difficulty curve and skill plateau as standard or taiko, and just like the other two mods the number of players that have reached that plateau are increasing by the day.

Krisom: the main improvements that can be made to catch the beat as-is are, in order of severity:
> Improved hyperfruit coding (very low priority since only stupid crap bugs out the hyperfruit)
> Increased visibility on spinner fruits
> Clearer hitboxes for the notes (this can be skinned currently, actually)
> Make tiny droplets worth something. I can completely ignore these and get a B on a map and get a way higher score than an S if i catch more spinner fruits than him.

"just moving the plate left and right" is an opinion from someone that has not played the game mode past a vague interest.


These are mostly just idle thoughts, nobody actually expects ctb to become rankable since peppy is of the 90%, or seems to have grown into that sector.

Krisom wrote:

Adding my two cents:
Why don't you guys suggest improvements to the CtB mode? I think it'd be fun to see more stuff implemented on the mode than just moving the plate from left to right.
Maybe by doing so, the game modes (or how they translate into each other when switching) will be different enough to make CtB specific maps rankeable on their own (not that I agree with that anyways).

So ?

Only thing that can really be improved in my eyes are the spinners, maybe change the whole concept because right now ANYONE can pass a spinner (standard and taiko you can slip up.) Right now spinners are easy, an idiot can manage to catch falling fruits :T.

I do approve of what you guys are doing and agree fully on the set guidelines that has been made, but as stated before, standard maps play fine in CTB, unlike taiko where most standard maps are crap. That to me is whats stopping CTB maps on getting ranked (and the guidelines of course.) If someone can find a legit argument onto why standard maps don't play well on CTB, sadly to say I don't see it getting ranked :T

BUT if it happens to get ranked, I will jump on the idea and start making CTB maps for future projects! Hell I'll start now and add em to my map info

Unless you can answer my previous question with undeniable proof i don't think this will get very far, specially since you can focus on making a CTB diff that's playable on Standard gameplay as well.

Krisom wrote:

EDIT 2: I think I might also give my (other) 2 cents. Why not propose that the speed-ups / slow-downs affect smoething in-gameplay, like, the movement of the plate? Think of it, a slowdown comes near, a warning appears, the plate turns (by exaple) blue and you cannot move it as fast as you used to while the fruits fall slower and their placement is much closer. Wouldn't that be cool?

Now, you're assuming stuff and being rude wihout a good reason.
Also, drop those "Oh all the english speakers hate CtB" argument, it makes you look paranoic :>

1. Not really, that's akin to forcing the halftime mod for certain sections. Fruits falling slower would be like AR changes, which are very unreadable anyway (see taiko)

2. I'm sorry if I offended you, but it's the truth. I'm certain it's very much the same if i said "standard is simple, you just move your mouse and click circles"

Also weezy, whymeman has a point - spinners have their place as a purely bonus score item, while it's impossible to "fail" a spinner on catch the beat, you also do not gain combos or any formal, flat rate of score like you do in standard.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Let me reverse the question then, is there any reason why a CTB map shouldn't be playable in osu! standard?, and before you reply please provide something other than the fact that the Y axys on CTB can be ignored because that's just plain lazyness, as far as i know ryuuta moves slower than regular mouse movement, since the mouse can move as fast as your hand, i still haven't seen anything that can make a CTB map unplayable on osu! standard

Because hyperfruits can imply much, much harder jumps. Because you don't need to click. Because, and this is an example for the hyperfruits, i've made a simple ctb difficulty for the lolz that had a 1/8th stream at the end with a 1/4 hyperfruit jump across the entire screen. It played brilliantly on CtB (this was kanon-kanon, by the way) but was outright impossible for any human player (really, a 18x jump?) on standard.
For an example of the "don't need to click" example, take a look at chipscape. It needs a lot of clicking. Compare how many people easily FC chipscape on ctb. This is not because it is an easy map, but because it's a lot more possible to pass because...you're not clicking. This just means that streamier fuckfests are more viable on ctb.

Another thing.... don't point out that dislikes are a region biased matter.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Let me reverse the question then, is there any reason why a CTB map shouldn't be playable in osu! standard?, and before you reply please provide something other than the fact that the Y axys on CTB can be ignored because that's just plain lazyness, as far as i know ryuuta moves slower than regular mouse movement, since the mouse can move as fast as your hand, i still haven't seen anything that can make a CTB map unplayable on osu! standard

PLZ....look at the replies ....
I say it already there is a bug jump appear which standard can make it all 300's but CTB you only can get all misses...
I dont want to say it again and again so plz refer to my previous reply..


Also, there is an interesting thing happen.
Bloody tears(by Gabi)
plz look at this map, anything you need to do is turn on the Hard Rock and Auto mod and watch.
The hyperdash throw away the plate to make the plate which auto controls miss the note..
Is it a bug or just make it on purpose?

whymeman wrote:

"Only thing that can really be improved in my eyes are the spinners, maybe change the whole concept because right now ANYONE can pass a spinner (standard and taiko you can slip up.) Right now spinners are easy, an idiot can manage to catch falling fruits :T. "

Why change something that isn't broken and is already balanced? The "spinners" in CTB are converted into bonus drops which also allows a difference in player scores. Not only that, HOW are you going to catch all of the bonus drops, especially in short spinners?

I don't see how you could really change up the spinner in CTB anyway.

Weezy wrote:

If someone can find a legit argument onto why standard maps don't play well on CTB, sadly to say I don't see it getting ranked :T

Something Ephemeral said way back is that "A good insane will translate to a good CTB"
There are quite a few amazing insanes that do not translate as good to CTB.

I can only think of a few insanes that are equally hard for standard and CTB players.

ZHSteven wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

Let me reverse the question then, is there any reason why a CTB map shouldn't be playable in osu! standard?, and before you reply please provide something other than the fact that the Y axys on CTB can be ignored because that's just plain lazyness, as far as i know ryuuta moves slower than regular mouse movement, since the mouse can move as fast as your hand, i still haven't seen anything that can make a CTB map unplayable on osu! standard

PLZ....look at the replies ....
I say it already there is a bug jump appear which standard can make it all 300's but CTB you only can get all misses...
I dont want to say it again and again so plz refer to my previous reply..

And it looks like you didnt understand the question, i didnt ask if a standard diff can be translated into CTB, i asked if a CTB diff can be translated into standard

Krisom wrote:

Adding my two cents:
Why don't you guys suggest improvements to the CtB mode? I think it'd be fun to see more stuff implemented on the mode than just moving the plate from left to right.
Maybe by doing so, the game modes (or how they translate into each other when switching) will be different enough to make CtB specific maps rankeable on their own (not that I agree with that anyways).

So ?

I can not press more buttons because I only play with my left hand.

Sakura Hana wrote:

And it looks like you didnt understand the question, i didnt ask if a standard diff can be translated into CTB, i asked if a CTB diff can be translated into standard

first of all, I appologize that I havent recive your real meaning of the question.
I am not a native English speaker, so I may get misunderstanding of anying...forgiven me

So, I am thinking you are asking the unique patterns that CTB map can have but it is ugly and unplayable when it plays in osu?

if so, that will be my answer:

I think, unplayable means the map is totally cannot play, even auto cannot Full combo it. If that is the point, I can only say all the ctb patterns can be transfer into osu! standard so far as I know.

But if you are talking about the enjoyable of a map, I think I can give you some opinions. In ctb map, the most important patten is jump. How well you can put the jump, and how interesting you can put the jump will be the judge of a good ctb map. But sometime, these kind of jump cannot make standard enjoyable, because the jump could be sudden and extremely fast when playing in standard.

Please look at this map of mine: Kotoko- wing my way. This is my first map and first try of make ctb map. I know this is not good enough but I am sure there is a lot of CTB player enjoy it. In the map, I placed a lot of jumps to make it enjoyable and fun in CTB mode. In order to make it rankable, I tried so much time to make it an insane osu! standard diff but failed. Not only the patterns of max jump put in osu standard is boring and stupid, but also the high-speed small jump will make a lot of people wants to slap my face..

In my mapping experince, I think there is still some patterns that fit CTB mode very well, but is not good in standard mode.

"I think, unplayable means the map is totally cannot play, even auto cannot Full combo it. If that is the point, I can only say all the ctb patterns can be transfer into osu! standard so far as I know."

Please don't use Auto as a "true" guideline of what is rankable or not. Its not just the fact of the map giving the player the chance of having a full combo, but also how the maps are made as well (i.e.- Using 1/8 notes on a +200 BPM song to "make it harder"). Rules and guidelines are also built from common sense as well. This is why some mappers and modders bump heads often because of what they feel is rankable or not (also due to the lack of understanding).

whymeman wrote:

"I think, unplayable means the map is totally cannot play, even auto cannot Full combo it. If that is the point, I can only say all the ctb patterns can be transfer into osu! standard so far as I know."

Please don't use Auto as a "true" guideline of what is rankable or not. Its not just the fact of the map giving the player the chance of having a full combo, but also how the maps are made as well (i.e.- Using 1/8 notes on a +200 BPM song to "make it harder"). Rules and guidelines are also built from common sense as well. This is why some mappers and modders bump heads often because of what they feel is rankable or not.

pretty much this.

whymeman wrote:

"I think, unplayable means the map is totally cannot play, even auto cannot Full combo it. If that is the point, I can only say all the ctb patterns can be transfer into osu! standard so far as I know."

Please don't use Auto as a "true" guideline of what is rankable or not. Its not just the fact of the map giving the player the chance of having a full combo, but also how the maps are made as well (i.e.- Using 1/8 notes on a +200 BPM song to "make it harder"). Rules and guidelines are also built from common sense as well. This is why some mappers and modders bump heads often because of what they feel is rankable or not (also due to the lack of understanding).

That is my fault...I misunderstand the question again...TAT

So please just ignore that point...

using 1/8 on anything over 140 BPM shouldn't be allowed. It's certainly possible to do, but seriously, so few people can do it accurately there's no point.

Also, There should be a second auto mode for CTB: the current one which hits everything on spinners and can show the true "maximum" point value, even though that score is entirely unattainable, and another which can't move faster than ryuuta. Make ryuuta move at his maximum speed all the time, and starts to move to catch the next note at the last possible second to catch the fruit on the very edge of the plate. Or Center, since that would give some leeway. If auto 2 can't SS it, the map is unrankable (there are other stipulations, but this would be a very easy way to check to see if the most awesome player ever (ie a robot) could pass it).

Personally I don't have a problem with anything that is theoretically possible. There is always someone crazy enough to figure out how to do it.

But then it still wouldn't be "humanly possible" right? Its better to do extensive testing than to use something to cut corners since even if Auto can "find" the playability problems, it doesn't mean its going to find everything for you.

Just because osu can do it, doesn't really mean a human can.

So yeah like whymeman said, thorough testing is probably the best answer.

Although I feel like this is sort of flowing off topic.

Support, but I would love some impossible CtB maps. Mainly verdi mixes. ;x

I'm almost sure that this thread has just failed.

Oh well.

Its not the fact of the thread failing, but its how you present something you want to address. Its like going to court with nothing to support your case vs. taking the time to do the research and provide evidance to support your reasons.

Also, its not just the fact of just trying to get CTB only difficulties to be rankable, but to include the fact of the process of how it is going to be done and how much sense is it going to make. Also, there will be that problem of "I can't mod CTB maps" from modders as well and that alone was a big problem with Taiko. Besides that, if a great amount of osu! standard maps were crafted from hell and couldn't be played properly in CTB then this matter might haven flown differently.... but its just my thoughts on it to let you know.

Another thing, did anyone re-read the Rules & Guidelines recently? viewtopic.php?f=6&t=439

whymeman wrote:

But then it still wouldn't be "humanly possible" right? Its better to do extensive testing than to use something to cut corners since even if Auto can "find" the playability problems, it doesn't mean its going to find everything for you.

What cookiezi does was not humanly possible either until he did it. I've seen what I presumed to be completely impossible actually happen in rhythm games. Full combo a 240 1/4th stream 16 notes long with 3 ms accuracy. Hitting an impossible to hit stacked note by hitting it exactly 30 ms early. etc...

By that logic we shouldn't bother having AImod. Using the term "cut corners" is a very poor choice. It's called efficiency. And the mappers who don't map CTB can then use that auto to find out if their regular osu map is SSable on CTB.

I don't think it's a problem to make a map that no human can SS right now. Just look how long it took people to FC Guitar Hero 2.

if it's theoretically possible, it is possible.

ziin wrote:

whymeman wrote:

But then it still wouldn't be "humanly possible" right? Its better to do extensive testing than to use something to cut corners since even if Auto can "find" the playability problems, it doesn't mean its going to find everything for you.

What cookiezi does was not humanly possible either until he did it. I've seen wh-......

(I stopped reading after that since the logic made no sense at all). What does Cookiezi have to do with how maps SHOULD be made? Don't build a concept off of ONE person. You have to think in a more wider range than "the pros". If you try to build something out of bad concepts or using "idols" to make a point, you're not going to get far.

Shiirn wrote:

The meta for catch the beat players is largely based in languages other than english (chinese, korean, and japanese players have a much higher concentration of ctb players to standard than, say, england or the united states) while those other-native-language players most likely do not speak english well enough to formulate something like this. If you take a look at some of the ctb threads in other languages you'll see they're far more involved and don't have the "LOL CTB IS RETARDED" mentality that 90% of english-native (or certain russians i won't mention) osu! players have.

Thing is you can translate your caps quote into "CtB is easier and boring because it's easy", which is the actual meaning of it. Because seriously, I've got a few friends (really a few) who switched to CtB because they got frustrated at standar and CtB looked easier and more friendly, it's a fact that it is easier than the other two mods, you can say it in many ways, one of those is "CtB IS RETARDED LOLOLOLOL".

whymeman wrote:

(I stopped reading after that since the logic made no sense at all). What does Cookiezi have to do with how maps SHOULD be made? Don't build a concept off of ONE person. You have to think in a more wider range than "the pros". If you try to build something out of bad concepts or using "idols" to make a point, you're not going to get far.

I think he means some people here might be talking about "impossible maps" when they are not impossible but just too hard. Of course in CtB there ARE impossible to FC maps, but I'm really sure some "impossible" maps are actually doable but just too hard for any player to do them.

I don't even play CtB but I definitely support CtB-Diffs being rankable, so I'd like to adress the question why CtB maps should not be available for standard play as well.
As was mentioned before, CtB would use horizontal spacing and probably use rather large spacing/jumpy patterns to make it more entertaining. A few people have argued that mostly or even exclusively using horizontal spacing would be lazy since exactly the same patterns could be achieved with osu! mapping.
There is one problem I see, though. If you keep the horizontal spacing (x-coordinates) and add vertical spacing (y-coordinates) as well, you get even larger spacing (Pythagorean theorem - or just common sense). So, with the already high horizontal distance snap, this would result in ultra-high spacing maps for osu! mode. Sure they would be "playable", but really not all too fun for the majority of players.
Also, it would be pretty hard to create patterns that play out nicely in osu! from a base of x-axis spacing - basically the only patterns where hitcircles would not be positioned at the same angle would be those patterns that don't use 100% horizontal-only spacing in the CtB-diff (Streams for example). This is because every time you use 100% horizontal spacing, it leaves a fixed percentage of that distance to y-spacing if you obey distance snap, resulting in patterns repeating the same angle over and over again. Wow, that sounds confusing... Did anyone get what I mean? Probably not lol I'll see if I can create a picture or two for illustration later on xD

I think the reasons why standard osu! maps don't usually translate into good/challenging CtB maps and can even contain impossible patterns have been sufficiently discussed.
So a osu! -> CtB transition usually results in boring/too easy maps and a CtB -> osu! transition would usually result in boring/annoying patterns and awful spacing. I think that's reason enough to justify the need for CtB-only diffs.

@^: That was exactly what I want to say, support.

I guess we have enough theoretical appropriateness, but how about practical? I mean, does CtB player really enjoys CtB-only map more? (Please don't mention about difficulty problem if you want to explain this, lots of previous efforts failed cause they made expert-exclusive CtB maps and that couldn't be tolerated by osu community enough.) Does mappers can make enough differentiated CtB map from osu standard one with CtB mode? Is there any different mapping techniques or restrictions(I guess this one is being ready)? We need to discuss these too, but if CtB players don't actively participate this, this will be definite failed. To be honest what I feel interesting is, lots of participants of this discussion are actually non-CtB players, even key-men.

There are still many ways to go.

_Void_ wrote:

I think the reasons why standard osu! maps don't usually translate into good/challenging CtB maps and can even contain impossible patterns have been sufficiently discussed.
So a osu! -> CtB transition usually results in boring/too easy maps and a CtB -> osu! transition would usually result in boring/annoying patterns and awful spacing. I think that's reason enough to justify the need for CtB-only diffs.

So basically you want CTB rankable so you can make insane jumps?

Even now there's rarely any Taiko maps that catter new Taiko players, and you want CTB to be rankable, to make even MORE insane CTB maps eh?

Sakura Hana wrote:

So basically you want CTB rankable so you can make insane jumps?

You should allready understand that this isn't the importand point at all.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Even now there's rarely any Taiko maps that catter new Taiko players, and you want CTB to be rankable, to make even MORE insane CTB maps eh?

To be honest, where is the meaning/logic of making easy maps, if the maps are allready easy when you are playing in your play-mode the osu! maps, "eh?"

No, I'm not asking for insane jump-spam maps.
I just said that horizontal spacing would generally be rather large because it's the only way you can move in CtB. If it was close spacing only, it would be really boring, right? If you then add vertical distance to that horizontal spacing in order to make it playable in osu! mode, you'd create even wider spacing to the point where it really cannot be considered decent osu! mapping.

whymeman wrote:

(I stopped reading after that since the logic made no sense at all). What does Cookiezi have to do with how maps SHOULD be made? Don't build a concept off of ONE person. You have to think in a more wider range than "the pros". If you try to build something out of bad concepts or using "idols" to make a point, you're not going to get far.

Why can't we make challenging maps for the pros?

Sakura Hana wrote:

Even now there's rarely any Taiko maps that catter new Taiko players, and you want CTB to be rankable, to make even MORE insane CTB maps eh?

There are no easy taikos because easy osu maps are easy on taiko and ctb. The harder osu maps do not transfer nearly as well.

lepidopodus wrote:

@^: That was exactly what I want to say, support.

I guess we have enough theoretical appropriateness, but how about practical? I mean, does CtB player really enjoys CtB-only map more? (Please don't mention about difficulty problem if you want to explain this, lots of previous efforts failed cause they made expert-exclusive CtB maps and that couldn't be tolerated by osu community enough.) Does mappers can make enough differentiated CtB map from osu standard one with CtB mode? Is there any different mapping techniques or restrictions(I guess this one is being ready)? We need to discuss these too, but if CtB players don't actively participate this, this will be definite failed. To be honest what I feel interesting is, lots of participants of this discussion are actually non-CtB players, even key-men.

There are still many ways to go.

cant agree more.

As a ctb mapper, I think I can answer your question.
For me, the first 2 maps by me is aiming for rank because there is no such "rules" being set. I promise the map is not aiming for pros. it is making for the whole ctb player. I believe the ctb standard player can enjoy those map.
But after DJpop's map, I noticed that ctb map is unrankable.

So I think there is no point for me to do sth that aiming for rank. I think, making a rank you need to consider what jump is possible, what jump could be strange, or is the standard player can enjoy or not. I do this 2 map by 1 whole month.
Different from unrank map , you can place whatever you like, just need to care about the map is beautiful, and FCable.

If ctb map is unrankable, what is the point I do such a lot of work just for 1 map testing again and again?
So I quit...now only doing some funny map, and enjoying with players who play my map, enjoy my map.
But dont worry~ I promise I will only stop my mapping only when there is no people like my map.

that is only my point of view.
BTW, Maybe the problem that CTB players not active about this thread I think, is they dont even know this thread, or just they dont even know how to map(that is why the CTB maps are almost all like hell). That doesnt means that CTB player dont want a specific map~~
So I think we should try our best from now~~lol

ziin wrote:

whymeman wrote:

(I stopped reading after that since the logic made no sense at all). What does Cookiezi have to do with how maps SHOULD be made? Don't build a concept off of ONE person. You have to think in a more wider range than "the pros". If you try to build something out of bad concepts or using "idols" to make a point, you're not going to get far.

Why can't we make challenging maps for the pros?

What does Cookiezi have to do with how maps SHOULD be made? Don't build a concept off of ONE person. It is just like what I said. Also, whoever said CTB maps are NOT FCable should take a lot of time to study their concept before saying something like that. If CTB maps are going to be non-FCable, then I might as well use ninja spinners to destroy people in standard, or use extreme speeds to make Taiko too hard, and even do sliders that overlap themselfs because "it looks good". Seriously, sometimes the idea of what a "pro" is can get overrated and out of hand to the point we forget about those that can't play as well. osu! shouldn't be a game exclusive to highly skilled players.

And like I said, if you try to build a concept of getting CTB rankable using "idol/pro" players as an excuse to make it rankable, you're NOT going to get far. Start thinking outside that box at least.

WHY do you want it ranable?

HOW will it work?

WHAT guidelines will support this?

Questions like that you need to sit and think through before blurting out answers that will only make the suggestion more unreasonable.

Can someone explain with sensible logic why CTB is easier than the other two modes? Because I fail to see this point.. and it seems a rather important point for supporting CTB difficulties.

whymeman wrote:

WHY do you want it ranable?
Because especially on high difficulties, osu! maps don't translate into awesome CtB maps most of the time. While low difficulties usually work decently, many insane osu! maps are way too easy in CtB (heck, even I can beat most insanes and I'm hopelessly bad at CtB lol) and in other cases there is often the issue with impossible patterns (read the posts in this thread about hyperdash fruits and pixel jumps). Also, many patterns that work well in CtB are unrankable/feel awkward in osu!
It's similar to Taiko, where osu! diffs do not usually translate into good Taiko diffs.

HOW will it work?
What exactly do you mean?

WHAT guidelines will support this?
That's what is (or was) being discussed in this thread. If you take a look at the OP, there is a huge list with suggestions and many posts after that add to or discuss these guidelines in order to guarantee maps of rankable quality. For example, there has been quite some analysis on how to avoid impossible patterns like can be found in some osu! -> CtB transitions. Or suggestions on difficulty settings. Guidlines on the use of sliders etc.
I really don't understand why you ask about what guidelines would be used in a thread dedicated to exactly that topic where simply reading the OP already answers this question almost completely...

@KRZY: Why would anyone need to prove that CtB is "easier" to justify CtB-only diffs? Taiko has rankable diffs as well and they didn't need to prove that their game is "easier". It's simply a matter of if or if not maps translate well from osu! - and that's often not the case with CtB. The simple fact that impossible patterns can occur is almost reason enough IMHO

Nice suggestions. and i like where this thread is going~

_Void_ wrote:

whymeman wrote:

WHY do you want it ranable?
Because especially on high difficulties, osu! maps don't translate into awesome CtB maps most of the time. While low difficulties usually work decently, many insane osu! maps are way too easy in CtB (heck, even I can beat most insanes and I'm hopelessly bad at CtB lol) and in other cases there is often the issue with impossible patterns (read the posts in this thread about hyperdash fruits and pixel jumps). Also, many patterns that work well in CtB are unrankable/feel awkward in osu!
It's similar to Taiko, where osu! diffs do not usually translate into good Taiko diffs.

HOW will it work?
What exactly do you mean?

WHAT guidelines will support this?
That's what is (or was) being discussed in this thread. If you take a look at the OP, there is a huge list with suggestions and many posts after that add to or discuss these guidelines in order to guarantee maps of rankable quality. For example, there has been quite some analysis on how to avoid impossible patterns like can be found in some osu! -> CtB transitions. Or suggestions on difficulty settings. Guidlines on the use of sliders etc.
I really don't understand why you ask about what guidelines would be used in a thread dedicated to exactly that topic where simply reading the OP already answers this question almost completely...

@Void:
For the what part I'm sure whymeman is asking something quite different then what you just said.

for the how part i dont/t quite understand either.

and for your stated why part. That has been stated at least 50 times in this thread already.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

So basically you want CTB rankable so you can make insane jumps?

You should allready understand that this isn't the importand point at all.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Even now there's rarely any Taiko maps that catter new Taiko players, and you want CTB to be rankable, to make even MORE insane CTB maps eh?

To be honest, where is the meaning/logic of making easy maps, if the maps are allready easy when you are playing in your play-mode the osu! maps, "eh?"

The only problem i see with that taiko issue Sakura Hana is the "who wants to actually make a guest taiko futsuu?"
Most taiko mappers like myself try to go all out with sensible logic of don kat patterns.

Same could go for CTB.
No one wants to make an easy one.

Why not write rules about AR, HP, Circle size and OD ?

I'm thinking of HOW like.... mapping styles, modding CTB difficulties, in what way should the map play at an "ideal" level, how should it play differently, and so on.

I also really don't want to hear "I can't mod CTB difficulties" A LOT if it ever comes to the point it is allowable.

I've modded (or tried to mod) a CTB level, because the standards for ranking a CTB level aren't clear enough... But I used my common sense and told the mapper how to improve his map (which is the gist of modding) http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=51975&p=893042#p893042

I wonder if it's right or wrong...

whymeman wrote:

What does Cookiezi have to do with how maps SHOULD be made? Don't build a concept off of ONE person.

He's the best right now. I'm assuming everyone is going to keep improving the longer they play the game, so pretty soon we'll have more people at or above his current skill level. My point is that in 2008 and 2009, the maps which are ranked today would have never been ranked, but are because of players like doomsday, uan, white wolf, anyone else in the top 50. I can extend that to top 2500 too if you want. Would 2500 people be good enough to support my concept? There is no hard limit to difficulty in osu because the mouse can move almost instantaneously from one note to the next. CTB can't. There is a hard limit which players will hit (if they already haven't) to the point where they can't improve any more. The only way to make it more challenging is to know exactly where that hard limit is and make it a tad bit easier so that while possible to SS, it will take a lot of practice/retries.

whymeman wrote:

osu! shouldn't be a game exclusive to highly skilled players.

It's not. Every map has to have a difficulty under 3.0. That is easy on every game mode. Why do we even have to consider anything less than "Expert"? Everything under that is fine as it is. Osu beatmaps play very well in CTB on all insane maps and lower.

whymeman wrote:

And like I said, if you try to build a concept of getting CTB rankable using "idol/pro" players as an excuse to make it rankable, you're NOT going to get far. Start thinking outside that box at least.

That's the only reason. There is no need to think outside that box. Everything else is fine the way it is. Why am I not going to get far? It's not like making CTB only difficulties is going to retroactively ruin the current system.

WHY do you want it rankable?
To make all/most mapsets SSable in CTB and raising CTB awareness. But I suppose there's no point in making this game easier than it already is. Let's just keep all the impossible songs and easy insanes.

HOW will it work?
Exactly like ranking any osu beatmap with a taiko difficulty. The CTB difficulty will be ignored by 90% of the modders.

WHAT guidelines will support this?
I don't have a clue what you're talking about, since it's obviously not about the current mapping guidelines or the guidelines laid out in this thread.

Normally I'm all for being opposed to good ideas which require too much work, but seriously, this requires no work on your part, no work coding for osu, and no work for anyone who doesn't want to mod such maps. I can't think of any good reason to not let CTB only difficulties be rankable. If someone comes up with a good one, please tell me and I'll likely change my mind.

"He's the best right now."

That still doesn't make much sense at all to me. As far as I know, Cookizei is the best at Standard Mode and that has NOTHING to do with CTB.

What I'm worried about is, at least Taiko map has some standardized methods to map and most of Taiko mappers are familiar with it, because they are using Taiko no Tatsujin as reference and have made Taiko diffs for quite long time, even before the Taiko map surge which started about 1.5 years ago. But in CtB not many players have experience of mapping and there wasn't that active communication between CtB mappers, as I know. Even some ranked Taiko maps have low quality due to failed quality control, what will be happened if you are not ready for this? So that's why I emphasized practical experience of mappers and lots of participants for this discussion, to find out how we will make the maps and prove it's better than playing osu standard maps with CtB mode, and I think whymeman's 'HOW' is similar, maybe.

Unfortunatly I think I can't make it cause I have almost no CtB experience.

EDIT:
Oh and rise of overall ability of players is actually one of general problems that every rhythm games have. Cookizei is just some kind of symbol of it in osu, that's all.

Look, i'm not here to destroy hopes and dreams. I'm just trying to get the serious thoughts going so it doesn't seem like "wishful thinking". Anyways, i'll leave this as my last post from this topic.

[offtopic]

We love you, whymeman.

[/offtopic]

KRZY wrote:

Can someone explain with sensible logic why CTB is easier than the other two modes? Because I fail to see this point.. and it seems a rather important point for supporting CTB difficulties.

In standar you can move around X and Y (CtB only X), in standar the cursor's speed can change, you don't have a fixed speed which makes the whole map to be way more complex than a CtB one since you can do lots of things you can't do in CtB because the little boy who's catching stuff can't move at any possible speed, plus you don't have the accuracy thing where you got to click with a pro timing to get full 300 on certain parts. The whole game is simpler imo, since you can do less things than in standar, you don't have "streams" since they are just about leaving the boy in a fixed place, and jumps are just... well you can't get a sudden epic jump since the guy won't get it even if you're CtB's god, then the diff you can reach will always be fixed UNLESS you go around using constant "those fruits that make you go super fast"

Just my opinion.

whymeman wrote:

That still doesn't make much sense at all to me. As far as I know, Cookizei is the best at Standard Mode and that has NOTHING to do with CTB.

He is just pointing out that what looks impossible/nobody can do it right now won't be in a few months. I remember some people telling me how everyone was like wow when that Blindstare map was FC'd for the first time in Insane, while now pretty much any decent player can easily FC that in a few tries if not in the first one. Which of course means the average level increases and everything gets harder and harder, I guess osu! won't have this problem since you actually got THOUSANDS of easy/normal/hard maps but w'/e.

whymeman wrote:

"He's the best right now."

That still doesn't make much sense at all to me. As far as I know, Cookizei is the best at Standard Mode and that has NOTHING to do with CTB.

I am making the assertion that there exist people who are so good at a game that they change the way the game is played. This has already happened with osu! and is continuing to happen at a slow rate because people keep pushing the limits.

This hasn't happened with CTB because we haven't begun to support it yet.

mm201 wrote:

At the end of the day, this is what ranking guidelines mean: they establish some qualities a player can expect to be true for all maps. osu! isn't an art project--it's a game. So there are times when you need to compromise on your artistic vision to create a better gaming experience.

Expert CTB difficulties are all over the place in our ranked maps and these qualities do not exist currently. We need to change CTB or at least make CTB part of the ranking guidelines.

I don't have a problem with making a map just for osu (and not SSable on CTB) if there exists a CTB only difficulty of similar difficulty which is SSable in the same mapset.

We make such a big deal about ensuring that every map has an easy difficulty so that everyone can enjoy their favorite map. Why are we ignoring people who are good/will be good at CTB?

I don't mean to be aggressive but I think an issue here is that nobody from the main staff is actually playing this game seriously/competitively (I mean in a competitive way dunno if the word exists), which is why there was so much flaming about osz2 (and there still is), and why they sometimes (I prefer to believe that since I think an always should fit better) don't understand how good players enjoy the game, which of course is obvious, playing challenging stuff is fun, playing easy stuff is boring, everyone starts off being a newbie, but with time YOU DO get better and the game ends up being fun since there is stuff you got to drill to clear/FC, which ends up in a satisfaction when you get to your target, which again is why most people play this game, because you want to reach something and you got to "work" for getting it. When saying "every map must have an easy diff. so everyone can play it", you are simply wrong, I think the correct term should be "every map must have enjoyable diffs for, if possible, every player". Obviously everyone CAN play easy maps, but honestly whenever I start downloading the latest ranked beatmaps and sometimes see they have no insane I usually go like "well I can't enjoy playing this song". Whatever I think I went off topic (if this post isn't absolutely offtopic already).

ziin wrote:

WHAT guidelines will support this?
I don't have a clue what you're talking about, since it's obviously not about the current mapping guidelines or the guidelines laid out in this thread.

I had already said that I'm pretty sure whymeman meant something completely different