Komirin wrote:

I think the fact that >80% of the hitsounding of the maps in the ranked section is done by a single user tells a lot about the importance hitsounding has on the mode's playability or enjoyability.

Since >80% of the maps that are currently in the ranked section is done by a single user, it can tell us how enjoyable hitsounds are to people, and/or the knowledge people have towards them. This information can be leaded to say how they don't necessarily think hitsounds are crucial in a current map, and/or how they don't have the knowledge, seeing as based on current standpoint.

Komirin wrote:

3) In Mania we already have a myriad of ways to provide players a way of differentiating instruments in a map with relation to the song (LN usage, density usage, etc.) that makes hitsounding even more insignificant.

I can too agree with this. Based on current maps that are seemingly trying to get ranked nowadays; such as that of LN maps, Dump maps, and overall maps that try to represent the song the best they can, can be seen to have differentiating songs in different usages and overall without cause creating a better atmosphere for the player; to ultimately feel, not hear the music and the emphasizing, since it's done through a tap of their finger.

So overall, creating this rule would reinstate more mappers to rank maps based on their
current standpoint; even as little as turning it into a single hitnormal would be beneficial to overall mappers and their relativity to their own maps, its expressions and representation; helping introduced mappers feel more included into the ranked section.

just remember what this queue community/forums/topics/1075822 exist

all new mappers around the world can get their ranked maps.

Just came here to say that I agree with this. I personally don't mind hitsounding as a thing but it is either:

1. Done by someone else (usually the same person for multiple sets)
2. Half-assed because it is mandatory.
3. Avoided and map goes to graveyard.

So it either decreases the quality of the set by having bad hitsounding or depends on a couple of players who might just at any point poof out of the game.

The alternative is to "hitsound better" but we are not really helping anyone. We would have to restrict the ranked section even more due to proper hitsounding checks and I don't think we are at a state where we can allow that. Plus, as mentioned previously, hitsounds are fairly insignificant to any player (or at least anything that is not just a hit-normal hitsound).

FAMoss wrote:

just remember what this queue community/forums/topics/1075822 exist

all new mappers around the world can get their ranked maps.

The thing with that queue is that people have to wait for few days/weeks to have their hitsounds. Then BNs have to check them. In any case hitsounds requirement unnecessarily lengthens the ranking process of a mapset. Moreover I think you are biased because you're hitsounding most of the maps that are going for ranked.

Hitsounds are just annoying, and distracting.
I prefer to listen to the music or my keytaps rather than having that sound in my ears lol.

just remember what this queue community/forums/topics/1075822 exist

all new mappers around the world can get their ranked maps.

While this is true, this argument lacks to uncover most of the points that have been talked about and even conflicts with some of them. Allow me to explain:

1. First and foremost, while it is true Mania has a specific subset of people in charge of Hitsounds, the fact that 70% of maps ranked (VERY rough estimation) gets done by the same people because the Mappers couldn't be bothered to do them themselves already speaks volumes of the public interest of such gimmick.
2. Adding a Hitsounding Queue only delays the process of Ranking a map further on. The job you guys done thus far has been extremely helpful for everyone, that is undeniable and everyone appreciates it! But realistically, this only adds an extra step and an extra point where Maps can easily get stuck in.
3. If the fear of such change is that spreads will NEVER be hitsounded again or be asked to be hitsounded by third parties, that should not be a worry in all honesty. People who truly want the Hitsounds in their maps will be free to do so, and most probably even BNs will prioritize Hitsounded/Non-Hitsounded maps. In said case, this gives many more options to the mapper and eases its burden in the Ranking process.
4. Another argument to explore is that even if the Queue was the only way to go, as a lot of people pointed out, the intrumental complexity of Mania makes it extremely difficult to add insightful instances of good hitsounding being made. Most of the times, the maps that get the spotlight for such feats are the ones who properly introduce Keysounding to their maps as to accompany the music's fidelity. And even then it can get chaotic due to the keymode used to place the Keysounds on as the layering has to be extremely loyal to the Keysounds its being supported on.
5. Finally, I believe that after Mania's rule of not having to Hitsound maps over Insane, we do have quite a lot of maps by now that do not make use of them, yet there has not been such a big uproar to turn that exception back and revert it. Thanks to the addition of this rule, we have various examples on how Basic hitsounding can still offer a layer of feedback to the players without being too intrusive for them or too much of a burden for the mapper.

Case is, I appreciate the work done with this Queue, I will reiterate that as many times as I can! But I do believe that still making Hitsounds a MUST is quite a big issue. It should be an option that players can choose to adopt, but forcing them to do so is such a demotivation, even if at the end of the day they have ways to "Automatize" it.

I think making Hitsounding not Mandatory into the ranking section would bring a large quantity of good maps to the ranked section in a short period of time, I know many people who create good beatmaps don't even really care about Hitsounding just because it is NOT completely neccesary to provide a fun experience when playing.

imo low diffs still need hitsounds. maybe we could make hitsounds for easy and normal (and hard? debatable) diffs mandatory but not hard+ diffs of the same set. i don't know how this will effect the spread proposal though

Something of note that has probably been outlooked.

One of the bottlenecks for the ranking section's diversity, due to how it works, is how a map must be accepted by a set of people first in order to be ranked. If your map doesn't meet the subjective taste of a person in this group, you can't rank the map. Thankfully, the set of people in osu!mania is now diverse enough and some people could go against their taste, making this work even more.

But the hitsounding team is an even lesser set of people and with the same principle, that adds another bottleneck, entirely because hitsounds are mandatory. I know osu!'s reputation in terms of song choice is now anchored, but for the players that seek to bring new stuff, seeing this feels very unwelcoming (extract from the hitsounding team requirements) :

Additional Rules
FAMoss

1. Strongly accepted if songs come from Featured Artists listing.
2. Touhou original / remixes songs.
3. Indonesian songs.

Kanon Matsubara

1. Prefer to Anisongs / remixes songs.
2. J-pop / J-rock or something like that.
3. Bandori songs.

I get that this team is here to help people who happen to meet these factors, but the deterrence of having to hitsound a map is a point that already has been made in here. This has a real impact.

The point i'm trying to make here, is that hitsounds is not only a productivity bottleneck, but also a diversity bottleneck. And sure, if mappers really want to rank a map they will forcefully go through this (while probably not caring about the end-result of stuff they don't intended in the map), but the goal here is to fix a ranking system which primary flaw is how unwelcoming it is to the greater side of the mapping community in VSRG. A problem that can't be adressed by telling mappers to do more efforts and comply.

EDIT: while i typed this post, Randome made a similar point, and other points with other arguments. i'll keep this post because it is not entirely overlapping.

I've always played with 0% volume on effects and play perfectly fine, if this goes through, it means more o!m ranked maps are gonna appear and I'm definetly up for that.

I was tipped off about this again and came into this thread thinking I was going to need to reiterate so much, but the community is so much more well versed than before and has a solid understanding as to why this is such an issue. It’s somewhat difficult to express how legitimately happy I am that community members are trying to repeal this extremely archaic ranking rule that in all honesty, serves as an easily identifiable bottleneck not only from a logistical standpoint, but also a content creation standpoint.

I won’t repeat much of what’s talked about earlier because a good majority of it is accurate and actually hits the nail on the head. Instead, I’d like to throw one more thing into the fray here that hasn’t gotten talked about much that I think is also worth talking about but is easy to miss: everyone mentions how hitsounding is process restrictive because it adds a lot of unnecessary overhead to the ranking process; however, it legitimately makes certain content inaccessible for being ranked.

Incredible solo compositions have an impossible barrier to be bridged for the purpose of being ranked, because the situation is, in my eyes, much more binary than that of songs that have multiple layers of instrumentation. You don’t have the ability to “choose an instrument to accent” with hitsounds. What do you do now? Grab an arbitrary note from that instrument and interpret accents throughout highly dynamic performances from a single instrument? Of course not. You’re left with a really bad fate and that’s to basically keysound things for accuracy. What’s next? Ruin said solo piece by generalizing percussive accents for the purpose of satisfying the hitsounding rule? Some would say yes to this, but that in itself serves a perfect counterexample to the rule in the first place.

Davvy is a fantastic example of someone who is brutally gated by this process, because he loves charting instrumental solos and is a very competent content creator (he is a BN after all). But let’s take a further look.

Parachor's What the Waves Brought - Ranked because rules for hitsounding above a certain length allow hitsounds to be omitted.

Davvy’s Caprice No.5? Good luck pushing that through the ranking process without having to add unnecessary/unjustifiable hitsounds.

Davvy's String Quartet no. 8 mvt. 2? good luck with that too lol

You could easily utilize a good number of Davvy’s maps as the perfect counter argument to this rule, where the only thing dictating whether or not something is rankable is purely the length of the piece itself (as a high enough length circumvents the rule in the first place).

If players desire hit feedback from their notes, they are more than welcome to have them by just having hit-normals assigned to the map at a lower volume. The burden should not be on the beatmappers to provide specialized hitsounds when 1.) a good majority of players simply play with 0% hitsound volume, 2.) options exist to remove the beatmap hitsounds if a person doesn’t like them and most importantly 3.) the existence of the rule literally gates off certain content from being rankable.

I don’t know how much harder I personally can advocate against hitsounds being a mandatory rank requirement; I did it years ago and will always do it -- remove this from the criteria, please. There are a number of people, myself included - that would be happy to participate in the process of ranking maps if this wasn’t a mandatory requirement. As mentioned earlier: the fact that people are utilizing community member services at exceptional levels (to which a lot of people are greatly indebted to FAMoss/Kanon) shows that there’s a massive interest in ranking content, but additionally indicates that part of the process is problematic.

It’s also worth mentioning that no one is telling people that they *can’t* do custom hitsounds; you’d still be able to do that too. But please, don’t force it on others.

EDIT: added additional Davvy example and apologizing to Parachor for being an idiot and crediting Davvy for a map that wasn't his asldkjsdltfrkjasrlfkdjasdftg POINT STILL VIABLE OKAY BYE

A good map doesn't need hitsounds when the charting already respects the music.
And when the patterns are dump or based on flow, you can rarely make hitsounds accurate.

Hitsounds should remain optional.

Totally agree with this.

I am a player who has ~4 years of experience timing with hitsounds through osu! standard, finding that custom hitsounds greatly improve my experience there, and even then I prefer using negative offset + no hitsounds in mania. I find that the variety of ways the music can be represented make 'proper hitsounds' (whistles, claps, etc) unnecessary for a complete experience, and the sheer amount of notes ends up making even hitnormals distracting.

If even I find all hitsounds pointless, the majority of the dedicated playerbase definitely find proper hitsounds pointless. Most of the mapping scene thinks similarly, with charters from other VSRG's hating having to add them and even home-grown mania mappers preferring if they weren't a requirement for ranked. For evidence, just see the other posts in this thread.

With such a large amount of disregard to hate regarding the requirement, I don't understand why it's still a thing. As a player, all I want is higher quality and/or harder maps in the ranked section — hitsounded or not. I dearly hope this proposal goes through, for the health of the community.

DarkistDeci wrote:

Since >80% of the maps that are currently in the ranked section is done by a single user, it can tell us how enjoyable hitsounds are to people, and/or the knowledge people have towards them. This information can be leaded to say how they don't necessarily think hitsounds are crucial in a current map, and/or how they don't have the knowledge, seeing as based on current standpoint.

And we have data about how much people uses hitsound volume or doesn't turn off map hitsounds?

HS gives better experience for those player that play with HS
So I think the rule should not be removed.

And I wont nom any maps that didnt have hs even the rule removed.

Completely agree with this

deta5859 wrote:

HS gives better experience for those player that play with HS
So I think the rule should not be removed.

And I wont nom any maps that didnt have hs even the rule removed.

Great that you think the rule shouldn't be removed, it simply makes them optional.

A lot of players very clearly don't care about them, hence why should it be forced, when all it does is force mappers into doing something they don't wish to do, so it comes out half-assed, for the sake of a minority, from what I've been able to see in the past.

I personally play all modes as much as I can, in ALL modes BUT mania I play hitsounds, because they sound nice and don't throw me off.
Mania hitsounds just really aren't any good, for me at least, and I'm sure it's the same for quite a few other people, as shown in this thread in the first place.

And being frank, your last sentence is just awful. Doing that as a BN, to enforce your own preference, when it wouldn't be forced anymore... Holy shit lmao.

I, for one, obviously completely agree with this. I'm surprised we still haven't done so since years even.

And we have data about how much people uses hitsound volume or doesn't turn off map hitsounds?

Currently there's no fixed numbers about it. However as explained, the uproar against Hitsounds has been a huge majority. In the example I've provided above, as far as I can recall, nothing like this happened when Insanes+ were asked to have their hitsounds optionally removed.

Unsurprisingly, people kept Hitsounding higher difficulties! Given the option, some chose not to, some did. Giving this freedom to mappers and not having complains from users already gives us an idea. However you're correct when it comes to precise Data. A field research about the matter, either with a Poll or a Form in different demographics of the community could help objectifying and quantifying the numbers we're working with.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

HS gives better experience for those player that play with HS
So I think the rule should not be removed.

And I wont nom any maps that didnt have hs even the rule removed.

A couple of things to note about this statement however:

1. Currently, saying that "HS gives better experience for those player that play with HS" is completely subjective. Using Sebaex's own words on top: "And we have data about how much people uses hitsound volume or doesn't turn off map hitsounds?". Such a blunt statement with such a blunt conclusion without aforementioned proof, if we were ONLY basing ourselves out of the reception this discussion has had against hitsounds, it would be intersubjectively deniend on the spot.
2. You're on your right to deny/accept all the maps you want, however you please! BNs are not forced to stick with only one type of map, and I believe that's the best that a volunteer could ask for. We're not forced to being judges or arbitrators. But at the same time, there're BNs willing to nominate maps with and without Hitsounds. Forgive my bluntness of the next statement, but said argument will probably not dissuade mappers from still trying to advocate from having no Hitsounds in Mania as there are now two alternatives: Go through the Hitsounding themselves or a 3rd party, or optionally rank a map without Hitsounds through BNs that also advocate for maps without.
   
   This second point your brought up is actually pretty interesting however, so I appreciate someone expressed their preference! By having more freedom both to map and to rank, we're not only incrementing the scope of mappers that would want to get their maps ranked, but also give this extra degree of choice to everyone involved. That way, the Ranked section will have everything for everyone: Mappers willing to map hitsounds, BNs willing to rank maps without, and players who will have at their disposal both options.

don't think bottleneck to ranking more maps is HS, rather lack of modder/BN.

AS HSer for 4 years, I think its fine to be optional, some songs forcing generic drum samples isn't adding much value anyways. It should be left to the 2 BNs to judge whether having HS is beneficial or not to the specific song case by case.

However it shouldn't be an excuse for songs that benefit from HS to not have it simply cuz RC doesn't require it. but this is likely to create more DQ drama by BNs who think subjectively its better to have HS or not have HS.

Additional benefit, if kanon/famoss retire, u dont have 0 ranked map.

I think % of ppl who mute HS is irrelevant to discussion, since they always have option to mute it where as ppl who want it wont have option to add it.

Rather i hope there's a rule that prevent stupidly loud Cymbal/Bass as hitnormal which is rankeable currently only prevents very quiet hitnormal.

As for dumps, quiet hitnormal should be allowed but not possible atm.

Drum-Hitnormal wrote:

Rather i hope there's a rule that prevent stupidly loud Cymbal/Bass as hitnormal which is rankeable currently only prevents very quiet hitnormal.

This, is something I never understood quite frankly. Why should the volume of hitsounds be kept at around 0-20% all the time, when the default setting is 100% ? If users find hitsounds too loud, they can setup their volume however they want. I've got backlash for not setting the volume of my maps to some user's preferences (5, 10, 20 %)... people, just setup your options properly ? Won't elaborate on that cause it's kinda off-topic but imo this is just one of the things that makes all this hitsounding stuff even more wanky and archaic in its requirement terms, and for a result of practically anyone ignoring this entirely.

Strictly in terms of mapping, i see HS just like SV. It can add value to a map, create a brand new gameplay experience, despite this some people largely prefer to turn it off. And when it's not required for a given song, it has nothing to do in it, so there is no use to force it onto mappers, as much as you like it.

This, is something I never understood quite frankly. Why should the volume of hitsounds be kept at around 0-20% all the time, when the default setting is 100% ?

Well, this has such a quick explanation, and the introduction of Basic Hitsounding would still require Volumes to be checked.

Short answer: Hitsounds must always be at a volume relative to the song's own intensity and volume.

Long answer: The reason why this is important is because songs are not always set at one "Volume" (The terminology is wrong, but for simplicity sake I'll use it). Songs vary, they change in intensity. Having monotone Hitsounds EVEN if they're just basic ones can either overshadow some lighter parts of the song or be overshadowed by stronger parts of the music.

Hence, you have to account that that's the reason why changing this is so important. And while Volumes are kind of subjective and no two BNs or even Mappers or even Hitsounders will judge them the same way, it's undeniable that you cannot compare a gimmick such as SVs which are fully optional.

Hitsounds will always be available for all players, and you can turn Hitsounds On and Off as a player. However, SVs are there to stay. They offer another layer of patterning and have their own subjective factors. They add to the map likewise. But the player has no choice in the matter.

TlDr: Comparison between HS and SVs is completely incomprehensible as they're two completely different things and aspects of the game. Moreover, I'd argue that changing Volumes of a map is way, WAY easier than having to Hitsound the entire spread.

Thanks for the explanations about volume ; It makes sense to adapt it to the mp3 volume.

About SV, I did mention "Strictly in terms of mapping", as opposed to the gameplay because of course these are completely different results. I make this comparison in terms of the effort it takes to implement either, with the same consequences of them being forced to a mapper.

It seems obvious not to force a mapper to add SV, well, if you force me to add hitsounds to my map I take it exactly the same. Maybe some players would be grateful for SV or HS in a map, but if I don't plan on adding them to it because I feel like I could give a good enough experience without, or simply because they don't fit in any way with the song, then I won't add them. If SV was a user toggle, would SV be a ranking criteria as well ? I hope not. This is the same for HS, even if it adds value, it doesn't mean it's worth it.

iirc ppy or someone on the osu team is very pro-hitsounding so errr gl i guess

Adri wrote:

Thanks for the explanations about volume ; It makes sense to adapt it to the mp3 volume.

About SV, I did mention "Strictly in terms of mapping", as opposed to the gameplay because of course these are completely different results. I make this comparison in terms of the effort it takes to implement either, with the same consequences of them being forced to a mapper.

It seems obvious not to force a mapper to add SV, well, if you force me to add hitsounds to my map I take it exactly the same. Maybe some players would be grateful for SV or HS in a map, but if I don't plan on adding them to it because I feel like I could give a good enough experience without, or simply because they don't fit in any way with the song, then I won't add them. If SV was a user toggle, would SV be a ranking criteria as well ? I hope not. This is the same for HS, even if it adds value, it doesn't mean it's worth it.

Never seen anyone forcing 20% volume personally, sounds stupid.
Actual volume = ogg/wav base volume * osu volume % , ex , 100*30% = 30, but if your base is 10, 10*100% = 10. so its more important to have a good base volume rather than setting the osu HS volume (which is ranging from 0 to 100%).

Don't 100% agree with analogy of SV = HS, SV is purely added difficulty to the map, where as HS can make map easier for new players who struggle to identify sounds. It will not make it harder unless you have messy HS which is a mistake that shouldn't be ranked anyways. But agree it's in the "nice to have" not "must have"

A map is not unplayable without HS.

imo there's enough proof that making hitsound additions optional would prove to be neither a detriment to mappers nor to players in mania so i'm definitely onboard with this too.

Drum-Hitnormal wrote:

Rather i hope there's a rule that prevent stupidly loud Cymbal/Bass as hitnormal which is rankeable currently only prevents very quiet hitnormal.

ensuring that maps have a suitable hitnormal and volume control should be part of the modding/nomination process just like it is now. maps should still be playable if people decide to turn on effects volume.

Hopefully we can get some more words from community members over a short period from now, but I see this topic to be pretty cut and dry.

Considering the overwhelming majority here is on board to give mappers the freedom of going for Ranked without employing hitsounds, I want to look specifically at the other side so far and see what seems like the most reasonable course to take.

Drum-Hitnormal wrote:

don't think bottleneck to ranking more maps is HS, rather lack of modder/BN.

It becomes the bottleneck when a mapper doesn't want to bother with them in the first place. Anyone saying that it's not a problem because there are other people willing to do it for them is a nonargument, as again there is no middle ground. Also delegating lax hitsounding only to dumps is not a good alternative. Dumps are one of the least common skillsets in Ranked as of now.

AncuL wrote:

imo low diffs still need hitsounds. maybe we could make hitsounds for easy and normal (and hard? debatable) diffs mandatory but not hard+ diffs of the same set

I'm guessing this proposal is just in reference to that newer players tend to use hitsounds when they play, or just prefer them. I would like to reference what April said here though, as I feel she did a good job of adequately addressing this:

Shoegazer wrote:

The argument of most newer players finding hitsounds to be useful is, in my opinion, moot when hitsounds are already turned on by default. Considering that a new player would not have a strong opinion on hitsounds at first, they will go with the option that is most convenient for them. The fact that most players as they get better turn OFF hitsounds rather than keep them on despite being on by default tells me that, if anything, hitsounding is viewed more negatively than not.

I wouldn't have much to add to this myself. I find the argument of "but newer players use them" to be in the same boat as newer players using the default skin. How many people end up changing their skin once they realize there are better options? The majority. How many mania players turn off hitsounds after they become more experienced? The majority. Let's not force more work onto all mappers because brand new players exist.

Sebaex wrote:

And we have data about how much people uses hitsound volume or doesn't turn off map hitsounds?

In the initial quote of mine from the topic post, I said "I would be more than willing to prove that with a public poll", in reference to most experienced players not using hitsounds. If the majority that you see in this forum isn't enough evidence, then we can still do that, although I find it unnecessary at this point. If all you were doing though is just questioning the number of ">80%" then that's fine, we obviously can't throw numbers out without gathering concrete data.

delta5859 wrote:

HS gives better experience for those player that play with HS
So I think the rule should not be removed.

And I wont nom any maps that didnt have hs even the rule removed.

Hitsounds do give a better experience to people that use them. They also give a bad experience to the people who don't use them! Refer to what I said and quoted from Shoegazer above about newer players, because that's the majority demographic for hitsound users. Also you are a BN, you're entitled to nominate what you want like every other BN is so I really doubt your process will look any different. Additionally your mention of not wanting to nominate things without hitsounds, adds nothing to the discussion here. There are BNs who will nominate maps without hitsounds, but do you know why they didn't bother saying that? Because that will be shown in their work, not in their attempt to abuse power.


So from my perspective if the thread continues on in the same way, it seems like the most reasonable change to implement is to no longer require hitsounding on maps (or at the very most a custom hitnormal), and to just let BNs use their discretion on whether a map could, or couldn't use them during the modding process. If that seems off base then correct me please.

I would argue the bottleneck is just no incentive to rank anything in the first place but that is another topic. Anything for easing up the requirements without dropping the actual map quality

I agree with this

I'm a mapper since +2 years and a member of a lot of mapping communities, and i think that making hitsounding mandatory is annoying for all that new ranked section mappers that want to rank any "decent" map and themselves deny to going on just because that, the fear and laziness of having to learn to do HS.

Even when all of us here already know that there are some people that are really helpful giving us a hand to do this, almost all of us know too that this should be removed or making it optional for any future ranked map.

Hitnormal should be the only mandatory thing, since it's really easy (compared to fully HS) to learn how to put it in a beatmap.

Drum-Hitnormal wrote:

don't think bottleneck to ranking more maps is HS, rather lack of modder/BN.

AS HSer for 4 years, I think its fine to be optional, some songs forcing generic drum samples isn't adding much value anyways. It should be left to the 2 BNs to judge whether having HS is beneficial or not to the specific song case by case.

I do agree with the sentiment of having BNs that judge HS (if they want to add HS in the mapset) in a case-by-case basis, however that should not be forced at all, since we're talking with the removal of the HS additions, in which HS can supplement the mapset, even though a good majority of players wouldn't really care much.

However, you seem to miss the bigger picture where a big amount of maps could have easily been nominated and gone to the ranked section with VERY FEW mods, either it be layering consistency and couple few nitpicks, IF they are done well. Hitsounds don't contribute much and it even adds unnecessary step that mappers shouldn't really be forced to make their mapsets go into their official part of the game, whereas experienced players don't utilize the hitsound volumes at all (set to 0% in-game).

Let's not forget that hitsounds really make so many for-rank content creations are gated or halted by this requirement, and a LOT of people think are as well. If a good number of people still persists on adding HS as a requirement, by the absolute minimum it should just be one hitnormal (be either soft/drum) file applied through their mapset, and everything makes it easier for everyone to rank their content.

Looks like this is cut and dry. I've made a pull request: https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/6128

Might as well add to this despite the overwhelming consensus. In my experience, very few top osu!mania players use hitsounds at all, and those that do certainly don't rely on hitsound additions to determine what sounds in the song are being represented by the map or benefit from them in any other way. This is one of many carry-over features from standard imposed on osu!mania without knowledge or consideration of how it might affect the mode differently. Removing the requirement for hitsound additions from the ranking criteria is objectively the correct choice from any reasonable point of view.

This might be out of line or not fit with the thread, but I'd like to address Peppy directly: I have immense respect for the constant work and dedication you pour into osu! and your skill as a technical lead, but please put aside whatever personal feelings you might have towards what you think the game should be. osu! is no longer an EBA simulator; it is at the forefront of the competitive rhythm game scene and has millions of active players. There have been instances in the past of you insisting that a certain feature remain despite the vast majority of players (and nearly all experienced players) pushing against it, the most notable of which being with the scoreboard showing during breaks in multiplayer matches fiasco. This attitude of wanting osu! to be played a certain way generally comes across in how you develop osu!lazer overall. I understand the reasoning behind this and your personal feelings, but please listen to the players more. We know what we want and have more perspective on our side of the game than you do (the reverse is also true and I get that). Contrary to what you suggest in the PR, the correct choice is clear. Please do what is right and trust the players.

Seeing the latest post on the github, I just wanted to say my opinions.
Taking future cross-mode converts/interactions into account is incredibly misguided, because to be frank - none of the mappers care about them. Mania mappers want to create and rank mania beatmaps, not mania beatmaps converting well to taiko. Other modes should have no influence over the mania ranking criteria.

Quoting and resuming discussion from the pull request:

Hold off on merging this until I have a chance to read through the thread. It doesn't seem 100% cut and dry, so want to make sure I'm on the same page.

One thing to keep in mind is that hitsounds are used for converting maps, which in lazer would be used for conversions from mania to taiko, for instance. Food for thought that dropping the requirement would make such conversions no longer play well.

A couple of arguments why coupling ranking criteria to cross-mode converts (and to an extent, having converts ranked in the first place) is misguided in my opinion

A map is meant for one mode only

In the overwhelming majority of cases, mappers will tailor their maps towards their targeted mode and should not be expected to know or fine tune their maps because of conversion output. This goes for all modes.

It is especially the case for osu!mania, where mappers/charters can come from very different upbringings and may not even use the osu! editor to work on their content. External editors made for other games will mostly not support hitsounds because the concept doesn't exist in those particular other games.

Player community consensus discourages playing converts

At least for osu!mania, osu!standard to osu!mania converts are heavily frowned upon in public multiplayer rooms and at least the majority of the top 50,000 will encourage newer players to learn osu!mania on actual, non-converted mania maps.

This is because in the current state of the conversion output, the resulting patterns can be incredibly awkward and are not representative of actually rankable mapping. Moreover, the long note/slider mechanics do not translate well from one mode to another, leaving gaps between releases and following notes where they would be expected to be jointed. This puts additional burden on the player to care about long note/slider releases, and these are only a few of many gripes about current conversion output.

There is enough content for all modes that we don't need converts anymore

To my understanding, cross-mode converts are a gateway to provide more content to the targeted mode. It is especially useful as a bootstrap for a new mode, where you need content to get players to play the mode and provide tailored content for the mode in return. However, all current modes are now years old with enough maturity, precedent and quantity of maps that converts should not be necessary anymore, especially not in a ranked manner.

For any mode, picking things you like from the ranked section should be far more than enough to get you going, and the star rating system, for all the flack that we like to give it, works pretty well for low values and as a starting point, and the spread requirement for ranked maps has worked wonders to provide beginner-friendly content. Therefore, we should strive in that content and give it proper homage rather than drown it with converts that do not conform to ranking meta.

One argument I see to keep converts anyway would be song/artist coverage for the casual player: providing the possibility to play converts for any map greatly increases the chances you can find something playable for your favorite song, or that one particular song. However, I would argue that providing a leaderboard for those converts should ideally not happen.

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The above is representative of my own interpretation and opinion as a fairly seasoned mania-only player, and an organizer of a beginner/intermediate friendly tournament featuring many cross-mode players, so I would be interested to hear more from cross-mode players. I know vernonlim is one of them, for what it's worth.

Hi, just want to drop my two cent.

I tried to push this too roughly a year ago but sadly have been rejected before i could make a thread, but that's the past.

It would be indeed cool to see this becoming optional in the future as there seem to be people that play without hitsound and mappers can't/don't want to hit-sound their maps.

I am personally neither for nor against this change. Because both sides have their pluses and minuses.
The biggest point for me why i personally was always a bit against removing the entire hit-sound addition requirement is:

What do you gonna do with the people that actually play with hit-sound additions and need them to become a better accuracy in the game? Yes, these people exist and i am part of it too. I cannot say for sure how many but there are people who play with hit-sounds.

Following scenario: The average TV-Size Anime Beatmap with Easy/Normal/Hard/Insane difficulties doesn't has hit-sound additions but is still a lot played because it's either a good map or the song is good or the anime was simply popular. (This is just an example, it can be basically with every map)

The person which plays without hit-sounds is of course happy. They don't have to care. Hit-normal too loud? Just turn down the effect volume.
The person which plays with hit-sound is suddenly disadvantaged. They cannot do anything. Turning up the effect volume doesn't help either because the hit-sound additions are missing. They can't hit-sound the map by themselves as it would make it unranked.

Same scenario with the same map but hit-sounded:

The person which plays without hit-sound is still happy. They still don't care. They can still just turn down the effect volume.
The person which plays with hit-sounds is also happy. They have their hit-sounds and hit-sound additions and don't have any disadvantage anymore. They can enjoy the beatmap in their way and are no forced to accept a way of playing they don't have to.

This is some kind of dilemma which is not so easy to avoid and should be really considered when talking about this.

"There are enough beatmaps ranked which have hitsounds" - That's true, but that would at some point limit the content the player which requires hit-sounds has available to play.

"But it's just optional, there still gonna be maps ranked with hit-sound" - That's also true, but what when there is this one popular song mapped which everyone likes and it doesn't has hit-sounds? This automatically creates a huge disadvantage for the people which use hit-sounds. Saying "Oh they can just map it by themselves" goes somewhat against the idea of the entire game. As the content should be available for everyone/most of people.

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Like i said previously, i am neither for nor against this proposal. Both ways have their plus and minuses but there are things that must be kept in mind. So yeah, that were just my two-cents which many posts here didn't seem to consider, reading the backlog. Looking forward to see the result of this porposal owob


P.S.: I was following the thread here and there since it has been created and i noticed some trend which bugs me a bit. Can we stop using the term "Most people", "Most players" or similar stuff? There are absolute no statistics for that when saying "Most players don't use hit-sounds" or whatever. osu!mania is a much bigger game-mode than everyone think and it as really a lot of players which we can see from the leaderboard. Can we say for sure that at least 51% of them play without hit-sounds to call it "most" just because some of your friends play without them? I highly doubt so. Would be cool if the discussion could rely purely on the actual facts which everyone can look up if necessary.

I would argue that a majority of the newcomers play with hitsounds as it is the default setting.

I don't think however that not having hitsound additions would make a player that plays with hitsounds any worse or any better. As someone who has played with hitsounds for a long time, I would always override hitsounds with the default hitnormal of my skin (just density alone of a map will cause different feedback and help with accentuation as the feedback is twice the volume by default).

This is not allowing people to just go and put 0% hitsound volume expecting their maps to get ranked, neither is letting mappers use a low % that would put hitsound players in a disadvantage. So long as you can have audible feedback from hitsounds I don't think you really need them to be any more fancier than a hitnormal. It just adds to the cool factor rather than the playability factor.

What I think is accurate is that "most players" don't need hitsound additions to play their maps to their full capabilities. They just need hitsound feedback to follow the rhythm which is sufficient with hitnormals.

I want to frame this counter arguement correctly.

Feerum wrote:

Following scenario: The average TV-Size Anime Beatmap with Easy/Normal/Hard/Insane difficulties doesn't has hit-sound additions but is still a lot played because it's either a good map or the song is good or the anime was simply popular. (This is just an example, it can be basically with every map)

The person which plays without hit-sounds is of course happy. They don't have to care. Hit-normal too loud? Just turn down the effect volume.
The person which plays with hit-sound is suddenly disadvantaged. They cannot do anything. Turning up the effect volume doesn't help either because the hit-sound additions are missing. They can't hit-sound the map by themselves as it would make it unranked.

This is a misguided arguement. People who play with hit-sounds will still hear feedback and can change the feedback they hear in their skin. As juankristal said,

juankristal wrote:

This is not allowing people to just go and put 0% hitsound volume expecting their maps to get ranked, neither is letting mappers use a low % that would put hitsound players in a disadvantage. So long as you can have audible feedback from hitsounds I don't think you really need them to be any more fancier than a hitnormal. It just adds to the cool factor rather than the playability factor.

Just my 2 cents without writing an essay: The reason I got hooked on osu! tatakae! ouendan! (and before that, DJ MAX and BMS simulators) was hitsounds. It's the main reason i made osu!. Say what you will ("this is not your game it's the community's game" / "no one's forced to play maps without hitsounds" etc. etc.), just felt I'd add that here.

If we do allow no hitsounds we may want a tag or symbol on the map denoting it, at very least.

peppy wrote:

The reason I got hooked on osu! tatakae! ouendan! (and before that, DJ MAX and BMS simulators)

BMS keysounds are done much better since songs are made specially for the game. The implementation also feels different than osu, you don't have to hit down to the millisecond in order to perfectly sync the music.

Bobini from BMS discord wrote:

We usually call those keysounds since they are part of the song, unlike hitsounds, which are extra sounds.

I totally agree with you, i love keysounds as well. Keysounds are a fundamental element in VSRGs like BMS, where they are core to the gameplay and the song itself is often made around this as well. Unfortunately, in osu!mania this is the case only in a very slim selection of ranked songs, which come from the mentioned games. Even fully keysounded quality BMS maps are mostly only found in offline packs.

Ranked maps use hitsounds just as an extra layer, and frankly I think the experience is far from being as important as it used to be. To add to the issue, there is a concern with accuracy when using hitsounds. I am not sure what osu! does differently compared to games like beatoraja (since i was able to configure this game correctly), but it's impossible to get a decent synchonisation between hitsounds, music and keyboard. So if you want to play a keysounded map on osu! (random example: smooooch), you have to set your global offset to 0 (which is in practice never correct) and tap very early, so that the hitsounds are in sync with the music. This really is a pain, and even I who likes to enjoy a great keysounded map from time to time will be tainted by this flaw.

So, in short, keysounds are indeed a very enjoyable thing and I love them, but in the case of osu! it is very rare and there are technical concerns that prevent from playing comfortably. Technical concerns applies to regular osu! hitsounds as well, which overall are less of an experience compared to keysounds. This ends up making it better to play without them, and it's one of the reasons people don't notice the difference with ranked maps having hitsounds or not.

peppy wrote:

If we do allow no hitsounds we may want a tag or symbol on the map denoting it, at very least.

Seems fine to me. Also is "no hitsounds" assuming literally no hitsounds, or is the bare minimum if this is permitted going to be a custom hitnormal.

a custom "hitnormal" should likely never be used on its own. that sounds like a mapper just including their preference. if it is in some way matching the song, you could argue it's okay, but why not put in the extra effort to make things a bit more dynamic at that point?

"hitsounds" and "keysounds" are no different, so i use the term "hitsounds" as that is what i defined it as when osu! was formed. back then, every BMS track (at least that i came across) had hitsounds as that's pretty much how the file format works. there are plenty of osu! maps which take hitsounds up to an insane level of customisation, and we still call them "hitsounds", or in such cases "amazing hitsounds".

peppy wrote:

a custom "hitnormal" should likely never be used on its own. that sounds like a mapper just including their preference. if it is in some way matching the song, you could argue it's okay, but why not put in the extra effort to make things a bit more dynamic at that point?

A custom hitnormal lets us provide a basic, audible feedback that matches the song for players, which for us is the bare minimum. And yes, we always ensure that it matches the song.

What isn't necessary in mania is using "additions" to make it more dynamic: by definition, the mode has many tools to provide this dynamism, primarly chord sizes. Unlike in most other modes (mainly std and catch), the dynamics and instrumental layers of the song can be understood and distinguished by the mapping alone, which is why most players play without hitsounds.

peppy wrote:

If we do allow no hitsounds we may want a tag or symbol on the map denoting it, at very least.

I'd say this is fair, specially for people coming from other modes.

That being said, I have zero idea about this stuff, but wouldn't it be better to have a symbol that denotes a beatmap is hitsounded?

peppy wrote:

"hitsounds" and "keysounds" are no different

From a technical (developer) point of view only. From the end user point of view, they obviously don't serve the same purpose so it's worth to use the right vocabulary.
Have you ever tried to play a BMS or DJMax chart without "hitsounds"?

Komirin wrote:

I'd say this is fair, specially for people coming from other modes.

That being said, I have zero idea about this stuff, but wouldn't it be better to have a symbol that denotes a beatmap is hitsounded?

As a mark of quality, and for people who are looking for specific gameplay, this sounds better. Actually we would need a marker for keysounds (where the custom hitsounds are the music), and normal hitsounds (where they serve as an additionnal layer only).

Why separate the two ? First, because they are actually different (see above). But why would we need the technical hassle to do it ? Because second : Keysounded maps are miles above hitsounded maps in terms of both mapper effort and player experience. For my personal preference as an example, I would play keysounded maps all day, but i simply don't care about hitsounded maps because they mostly have nothing to do with the music itself.

As far as I know, an overwhelming majority of osu!mania players don't keep hitsounds on

I can't name a single osu!mania player I know who uses hitsounds.

When I tried to share YouTube videos of maps I made in osu!mania-focused communities, I got flamed for keeping the hitsounds on in my recording.

I think requiring mappers to invest time and effort to map hitsounds when there is a possibility that not a single player will hear them is not right.

I'd be ok with an icon to show maps without hitsounds but I don't think osu!mania players will pay attention to it anyway, I can bet it'll be used by osu! mode players when playing through graveyard or WIP maps instead.

Stats of how many active osu!mania players have hitsounds on vs off could be interesting, but the comments here already give an idea of the results.

An icon for keysounded maps sound very useful, as players will know they need to re-enable hitsounds before playing them.

Komirin wrote:

A custom hitnormal lets us provide a basic, audible feedback that matches the song for players, which for us is the bare minimum

Komirin wrote:

Removing hitsound addition requirements (leaving the custom hitnormal requirement because that's an essential minumum) would be amazingly beneficial for the mode as a whole.

Herarudo wrote:

Hitnormal should be the only mandatory thing

Nimis wrote:

I would still prefer beatmaps to have a custom hitnormal only just because every song is different

DarkistDeci wrote:

...even as little as turning it into a single hitnormal would be beneficial to overall mappers and their relativity to their own maps...

Mipha- wrote:

If a good number of people still persists on adding HS as a requirement, by the absolute minimum it should just be one hitnormal...

juankristal wrote:

They just need hitsound feedback to follow the rhythm which is sufficient with hitnormals

Seems to me the fairest consensus for minimum hitsound requirements should just be a suitable custom hitnormal for a map no? If that's the case, I personally believe this topic can be wrapped up soon



Edit: Regarding an icon to display whether a map isn't fully custom hitsounded, sure. Seems unnecessary to me and it would make more sense to just state so in a maps description, but whatever works

Shouldn't hitsounding requirements be moved to the osu!catch and osu! specific RC pages at this point? It technically doesn't apply to taiko and if it doesn't apply to mania, having something in the general RC that only applies to half the game modes seems off.


Then it could be like->

osu: Hitsounding required
osu!catch: Hitsounding required
osu!mania: Hitnormal with good feedback required, other optional.

Noffy wrote:

Shouldn't hitsounding requirements be moved to the osu!catch and osu! specific RC pages at this point? It technically doesn't apply to taiko and if it doesn't apply to mania, having something in the general RC that only applies to half the game modes seems off.


Then it could be like->

osu: Hitsounding required
osu!catch: Hitsounding required
osu!mania: Hitnormal with good feedback required, other optional.

Feels like that should be a separate merge request (and maybe proposal), but not sure. It makes sense to approach this incrementally:
remove hitsounds additions requirement in mania -> restructure hitsounding criteria to be per-mode

It's finally merged

no it should not be moved to per ruleset criteria. we are not making it any less visible.