imo low diffs still need hitsounds. maybe we could make hitsounds for easy and normal (and hard? debatable) diffs mandatory but not hard+ diffs of the same set. i don't know how this will effect the spread proposal though
And we have data about how much people uses hitsound volume or doesn't turn off map hitsounds?DarkistDeci wrote:
Since >80% of the maps that are currently in the ranked section is done by a single user, it can tell us how enjoyable hitsounds are to people, and/or the knowledge people have towards them. This information can be leaded to say how they don't necessarily think hitsounds are crucial in a current map, and/or how they don't have the knowledge, seeing as based on current standpoint.
Great that you think the rule shouldn't be removed, it simply makes them optional.deta5859 wrote:
HS gives better experience for those player that play with HS
So I think the rule should not be removed.
And I wont nom any maps that didnt have hs even the rule removed.
And we have data about how much people uses hitsound volume or doesn't turn off map hitsounds?Currently there's no fixed numbers about it. However as explained, the uproar against Hitsounds has been a huge majority. In the example I've provided above, as far as I can recall, nothing like this happened when Insanes+ were asked to have their hitsounds optionally removed.
HS gives better experience for those player that play with HSA couple of things to note about this statement however:
So I think the rule should not be removed.
And I wont nom any maps that didnt have hs even the rule removed.
This, is something I never understood quite frankly. Why should the volume of hitsounds be kept at around 0-20% all the time, when the default setting is 100% ? If users find hitsounds too loud, they can setup their volume however they want. I've got backlash for not setting the volume of my maps to some user's preferences (5, 10, 20 %)... people, just setup your options properly ? Won't elaborate on that cause it's kinda off-topic but imo this is just one of the things that makes all this hitsounding stuff even more wanky and archaic in its requirement terms, and for a result of practically anyone ignoring this entirely.Drum-Hitnormal wrote:
Rather i hope there's a rule that prevent stupidly loud Cymbal/Bass as hitnormal which is rankeable currently only prevents very quiet hitnormal.
This, is something I never understood quite frankly. Why should the volume of hitsounds be kept at around 0-20% all the time, when the default setting is 100% ?Well, this has such a quick explanation, and the introduction of Basic Hitsounding would still require Volumes to be checked.
Never seen anyone forcing 20% volume personally, sounds stupid.Adri wrote:
Thanks for the explanations about volume ; It makes sense to adapt it to the mp3 volume.
About SV, I did mention "Strictly in terms of mapping", as opposed to the gameplay because of course these are completely different results. I make this comparison in terms of the effort it takes to implement either, with the same consequences of them being forced to a mapper.
It seems obvious not to force a mapper to add SV, well, if you force me to add hitsounds to my map I take it exactly the same. Maybe some players would be grateful for SV or HS in a map, but if I don't plan on adding them to it because I feel like I could give a good enough experience without, or simply because they don't fit in any way with the song, then I won't add them. If SV was a user toggle, would SV be a ranking criteria as well ? I hope not. This is the same for HS, even if it adds value, it doesn't mean it's worth it.
ensuring that maps have a suitable hitnormal and volume control should be part of the modding/nomination process just like it is now. maps should still be playable if people decide to turn on effects volume.Drum-Hitnormal wrote:
Rather i hope there's a rule that prevent stupidly loud Cymbal/Bass as hitnormal which is rankeable currently only prevents very quiet hitnormal.
It becomes the bottleneck when a mapper doesn't want to bother with them in the first place. Anyone saying that it's not a problem because there are other people willing to do it for them is a nonargument, as again there is no middle ground. Also delegating lax hitsounding only to dumps is not a good alternative. Dumps are one of the least common skillsets in Ranked as of now.Drum-Hitnormal wrote:
don't think bottleneck to ranking more maps is HS, rather lack of modder/BN.
I'm guessing this proposal is just in reference to that newer players tend to use hitsounds when they play, or just prefer them. I would like to reference what April said here though, as I feel she did a good job of adequately addressing this:AncuL wrote:
imo low diffs still need hitsounds. maybe we could make hitsounds for easy and normal (and hard? debatable) diffs mandatory but not hard+ diffs of the same set
I wouldn't have much to add to this myself. I find the argument of "but newer players use them" to be in the same boat as newer players using the default skin. How many people end up changing their skin once they realize there are better options? The majority. How many mania players turn off hitsounds after they become more experienced? The majority. Let's not force more work onto all mappers because brand new players exist.Shoegazer wrote:
The argument of most newer players finding hitsounds to be useful is, in my opinion, moot when hitsounds are already turned on by default. Considering that a new player would not have a strong opinion on hitsounds at first, they will go with the option that is most convenient for them. The fact that most players as they get better turn OFF hitsounds rather than keep them on despite being on by default tells me that, if anything, hitsounding is viewed more negatively than not.
In the initial quote of mine from the topic post, I said "I would be more than willing to prove that with a public poll", in reference to most experienced players not using hitsounds. If the majority that you see in this forum isn't enough evidence, then we can still do that, although I find it unnecessary at this point. If all you were doing though is just questioning the number of ">80%" then that's fine, we obviously can't throw numbers out without gathering concrete data.Sebaex wrote:
And we have data about how much people uses hitsound volume or doesn't turn off map hitsounds?
Hitsounds do give a better experience to people that use them. They also give a bad experience to the people who don't use them! Refer to what I said and quoted from Shoegazer above about newer players, because that's the majority demographic for hitsound users. Also you are a BN, you're entitled to nominate what you want like every other BN is so I really doubt your process will look any different. Additionally your mention of not wanting to nominate things without hitsounds, adds nothing to the discussion here. There are BNs who will nominate maps without hitsounds, but do you know why they didn't bother saying that? Because that will be shown in their work, not in their attempt to abuse power.delta5859 wrote:
HS gives better experience for those player that play with HS
So I think the rule should not be removed.
And I wont nom any maps that didnt have hs even the rule removed.
I do agree with the sentiment of having BNs that judge HS (if they want to add HS in the mapset) in a case-by-case basis, however that should not be forced at all, since we're talking with the removal of the HS additions, in which HS can supplement the mapset, even though a good majority of players wouldn't really care much.Drum-Hitnormal wrote:
don't think bottleneck to ranking more maps is HS, rather lack of modder/BN.
AS HSer for 4 years, I think its fine to be optional, some songs forcing generic drum samples isn't adding much value anyways. It should be left to the 2 BNs to judge whether having HS is beneficial or not to the specific song case by case.
Hold off on merging this until I have a chance to read through the thread. It doesn't seem 100% cut and dry, so want to make sure I'm on the same page.A couple of arguments why coupling ranking criteria to cross-mode converts (and to an extent, having converts ranked in the first place) is misguided in my opinion
One thing to keep in mind is that hitsounds are used for converting maps, which in lazer would be used for conversions from mania to taiko, for instance. Food for thought that dropping the requirement would make such conversions no longer play well.
This is a misguided arguement. People who play with hit-sounds will still hear feedback and can change the feedback they hear in their skin. As juankristal said,Feerum wrote:
Following scenario: The average TV-Size Anime Beatmap with Easy/Normal/Hard/Insane difficulties doesn't has hit-sound additions but is still a lot played because it's either a good map or the song is good or the anime was simply popular. (This is just an example, it can be basically with every map)
The person which plays without hit-sounds is of course happy. They don't have to care. Hit-normal too loud? Just turn down the effect volume.
The person which plays with hit-sound is suddenly disadvantaged. They cannot do anything. Turning up the effect volume doesn't help either because the hit-sound additions are missing. They can't hit-sound the map by themselves as it would make it unranked.
juankristal wrote:
This is not allowing people to just go and put 0% hitsound volume expecting their maps to get ranked, neither is letting mappers use a low % that would put hitsound players in a disadvantage. So long as you can have audible feedback from hitsounds I don't think you really need them to be any more fancier than a hitnormal. It just adds to the cool factor rather than the playability factor.
BMS keysounds are done much better since songs are made specially for the game. The implementation also feels different than osu, you don't have to hit down to the millisecond in order to perfectly sync the music.peppy wrote:
The reason I got hooked on osu! tatakae! ouendan! (and before that, DJ MAX and BMS simulators)
Bobini from BMS discord wrote:
We usually call those keysounds since they are part of the song, unlike hitsounds, which are extra sounds.
A custom hitnormal lets us provide a basic, audible feedback that matches the song for players, which for us is the bare minimum. And yes, we always ensure that it matches the song.peppy wrote:
a custom "hitnormal" should likely never be used on its own. that sounds like a mapper just including their preference. if it is in some way matching the song, you could argue it's okay, but why not put in the extra effort to make things a bit more dynamic at that point?
I'd say this is fair, specially for people coming from other modes.peppy wrote:
If we do allow no hitsounds we may want a tag or symbol on the map denoting it, at very least.
From a technical (developer) point of view only. From the end user point of view, they obviously don't serve the same purpose so it's worth to use the right vocabulary.peppy wrote:
"hitsounds" and "keysounds" are no different
As a mark of quality, and for people who are looking for specific gameplay, this sounds better. Actually we would need a marker for keysounds (where the custom hitsounds are the music), and normal hitsounds (where they serve as an additionnal layer only).Komirin wrote:
I'd say this is fair, specially for people coming from other modes.
That being said, I have zero idea about this stuff, but wouldn't it be better to have a symbol that denotes a beatmap is hitsounded?
Komirin wrote:
A custom hitnormal lets us provide a basic, audible feedback that matches the song for players, which for us is the bare minimum
Komirin wrote:
Removing hitsound addition requirements (leaving the custom hitnormal requirement because that's an essential minumum) would be amazingly beneficial for the mode as a whole.
Herarudo wrote:
Hitnormal should be the only mandatory thing
Nimis wrote:
I would still prefer beatmaps to have a custom hitnormal only just because every song is different
DarkistDeci wrote:
...even as little as turning it into a single hitnormal would be beneficial to overall mappers and their relativity to their own maps...
Mipha- wrote:
If a good number of people still persists on adding HS as a requirement, by the absolute minimum it should just be one hitnormal...
juankristal wrote:
They just need hitsound feedback to follow the rhythm which is sufficient with hitnormals