Amendment

GitHub Pull Request by Feerum

Original
- There must not be more than 6 notes pressed at any given moment. Most USB-connected keyboards cannot handle 7 simultaneous inputs at a time. Note that this rule does not apply to ends of long notes, as they are released, not pressed.

Proposed
- There should not be more than 6 notes pressed at any given moment in Insane or lower difficulties. Using more than 6 notes must also follow a reasonable spread to the next lower difficulty. This rule does not apply to ends of long notes, as they are released, not pressed.

---

Introduction

Going under the assumption that this rule was formed to prevent deterring beginner players in easier charts.

This rule can be amended to make exception to those who would want to expand on their skill-set on higher difficulties.

Player-side

benefits
Players will be exposed to more patterns. Possibly allowing ranking of otherwise un-rankable mapsets/maps.

drawbacks
USB Keyboard players will not be able to properly play certain maps

Mapper-side

benefits
Mappers will not be forced to tweak their patterns to accommodate players not in their scope.
Increased availability of patterns.

drawbacks
Mappers will be allowed to use 7K+ chords, which they may not understand the repercussions of.
At a high S.R. mappers should already be familiar with these anyways.

Ranking-side

BNs to note to not enforce, but advice otherwise if a 7K+ chord isn't suitable.

---

Parameters

I suggest a Ultra Difficulty (7.0 S.R.) as a rough guideline as most maps 0.0 <-> 7.0 don't really require that density spike. This is to be adjusted after discussion.

This is also taken with consideration with how LN maps are generally high in SR, and they run into this issue quite a lot, as for non-LN maps, they are rarer, and are generally lower in SR.

---

Justification

While it may seem unfair to push players to use different keybinds/keyboards, please note the high SR threshold.

At this point many high-end players would have:
- Changed Switches
- Bought dedicated keyboards
- Spent money on better equipment in general

It will not deter players who actually care about improvement rather than pp.

A ranked map that totally renders a player not being able to play due to a 7K+ chord every 5 seconds is rare, so don't expect anything to change much. Just a suggestion to allow more pattern choices.

---

Edits:
- Include Ultra difficulty as convention instead of just 7.0 S.R.
- Deprecate original suggestion for official pull request

Deprecations:

all my yeses though the rc already detracted from being sr reliant. using Ultra diffs (black icon diffs) as the requirement could take the place of 7*

the recent mwc aleady shows that people can play 7k chords so im very confident this rule change will be well accepted by both mappers and players

hell yes

Edit: like what Lenfried- have stated, I think using "Extra+" icon (or black icon) would be a better fit for this amendment.

Though it's still up to the BNs' decision on the usage of 7+ note chords, but I'm totally down with this if they're used correctly

Lenfried- wrote:

all my yeses though the rc already detracted from being sr reliant. using Ultra diffs (black icon diffs) as the requirement could take the place of 7*

Yes, that looks better, I'll keep the number for now as reference

I'm kinda ambivalent with this. At one side, I think it's kinda makes sense that players at top ranks already playing with high-tech. And the number of pattern choice is increased with that guideline. But we can't really generalize top rankers use high-tech, can we? Also, I thought it kinda makes the environment sounds like "If you want the top ranks, you should use high tech equipment".

MEGAtive wrote:

I'm kinda ambivalent with this. At one side, I think it's kinda makes sense that players at top ranks already playing with high-tech. And the number of pattern choice is increased with that guideline. But we can't really generalize top rankers use high-tech, can we? Also, I thought it kinda makes the environment sounds like "If you want the top ranks, you should use high tech equipment".

Yes, personally I'm erring towards allowing 7Key+ chords on harder maps only.

I believe at a certain point, the ranking criteria must be loose enough to accommodate difficult skill sets instead of just barring anything that will be slightly out of reach for the general playerbase.

This hurdle shouldn't be amplified to the point where it affects what maps are rankable. Some may classify this as a pay-to-win strategy; but to bring more variety in harder maps in ranked, I think it needs to be more open on what maps are acceptable.

E: Formatting/Grammar

MEGAtive wrote:

I'm kinda ambivalent with this. At one side, I think it's kinda makes sense that players at top ranks already playing with high-tech. And the number of pattern choice is increased with that guideline. But we can't really generalize top rankers use high-tech, can we? Also, I thought it kinda makes the environment sounds like "If you want the top ranks, you should use high tech equipment".

You can press 7+ keys simultaneously if you use 2 cheap keyboards (one for each hand), which is still cheaper than buying a single keyboard with nkro.

This comes similar to 16:9 std proposal : ignoring the fact that some players may be disadvantaged due to material restriction. More mapping option doesn't mean forcing high players to buy hardware just to continue. Let's imagine a mapping scene in a future (near or far) where most high star maps use at least one of thoses 7k chords. Rip fc for thoses players (tho with mania scoring/rank, it's less worst than std, but it's still affecting it).

Just passing by, I don't play mania, I'm just a std guy.

Yo o/

I am like probably everyone here not a fan of pattern restrictions. I also would like to get rid of this rule, like really. I would go even further and allow 8-keys and 9-keys at the same time, just for the higher rankable key modes than 7K.

But i see it like this: osu! is a completely free-to-play/free-to-win game. It always was and should always stay like this.
Removing this rule would restrict player in playable content which don't can or don't want to buy new hardware just for this game.

osu! standard has many tablet players, yes. But it was always an optional option. They do not need it to reach the highest ranks.

Removing this rule would make it at some point mandatory to buy new hardware for this game, to reach the highest ranks. Which is somehow against this "Free to play/Free to win" policy of osu!

I can understand arguments like "Most of high rank players have top tier keyboards anyways", this might be true. But there are still people who don't have it and/or don't want it. I am btw one of them. (At least in osu!mania)

Therefore i am against removing this rule.
I would welcome removing pattern restrictions, but i want even more that osu! is a game for everyone to "win". For everyone to be able to reach the highest rank without buying extra hardware.

If you press and release really keys really fast, you can technically hit 7+ note chords on a 6 key rollover. This is not quite possible with 7+ note LN chords tho.

Feerum wrote:

But i see it like this: osu! is a completely free-to-play/free-to-win game. It always was and should always stay like this.
Removing this rule would restrict player in playable content which don't can or don't want to buy new hardware just for this game.

osu! standard has many tablet players, yes. But it was always an optional option. They do not need it to reach the highest ranks.

So what hardware configurations are we considering optional here? Specialized keyboards with N-key rollover, sure. A regular keyboard, no. Are 2 connected regular keyboards considered optional? Arguably, I can also claim that at some point it is mandatory to buy new hardware for this game. You need to buy a new keyboard after some time of playing mania due to the wear it does on the keyboard. I've been through a couple cheap keyboards already.

Further Justification

Okay maybe I didn't touch on how this rule has affected 7K+ mappers on a higher level, I feel like most people who are against this most likely don't understand the issues which comes with mapping super dense patterns:

Dense LN Mapping
This would be the main argument, the rest are subpoints

Even in lighter maps from O2Jam, there are already 7K presses, I can understand how they can be easily mitigated by just adjusting a few notes. However, in higher level maps, it's simply too annoying to avoid.

Here are some examples that would look weird if it's only 6K enforced.
Note that the density there is considered low
Incompleteness problem

Insufficient emphasis problem


There is many more here, I'll point out that there's approximately a 7K + note chord every 16 seconds in this chart, as a 12* chart.

Dense Note Charting

It does get ridiculous at this point, where I personally wouldn't be affected by it, since it usually only occurs over 8.5*+ maps like The Lost Dedicated

It's one of many examples in BMS.

Problem in Player Progression and it's Migration to other VSRGs

It's something hard to understand, personally I only understood the problem of not playing 7K+ chords when I reached playing 8*+ maps, which was 5 Years down the road.

Player progression is severely hindered by this rule, there's a tradeoff between having a free to play environment and giving the player and mapper the freedom to progress over 7*+ maps.

It's already evident in 4K, players who progress over 5* moved over to Etterna because osu! didn't give extreme maps a chance. o!m is barely clinging onto them, but because osu!mania never cared about the high tier players, they mostly moved there.

Consider 7K, you don't see much of high tier players anywhere now, they are all migrating else where like LR2, O2Jam private servers. When some other VSRG that caters to 7K finalizes, it's guaranteed that players that want to go beyond, or mappers that want to cater to those players will move.

I digressed slightly, but you should be able to see why this is important.

---

Replies

xenal wrote:

This comes similar to 16:9 std proposal : ignoring the fact that some players may be disadvantaged due to material restriction. More mapping option doesn't mean forcing high players to buy hardware just to continue. Let's imagine a mapping scene in a future (near or far) where most high star maps use at least one of thoses 7k chords. Rip fc for thoses players (tho with mania scoring/rank, it's less worst than std, but it's still affecting it).

Just passing by, I don't play mania, I'm just a std guy.

The tradeoff is beneficial, in my opinion.
There will always be the issue with "all maps must be accessible by everyone", this adds to the issue, I won't shun it.

Most players at that level, 7*+ takes at least 3 years to achieve, would've accepted that problem, and would've found mitigations or solutions to it.

Avoiding this pattern will only add to the problem of players' mind not recognizing that pattern at all. This is happening to me, I rely heavily on pattern recognition and 7k chords are almost impossible to react to.

So, the tradeoff between hindering the player vs. restricting the player, I feel it's justified.

Feerum wrote:

Yo o/

I am like probably everyone here not a fan of pattern restrictions. I also would like to get rid of this rule, like really. I would go even further and allow 8-keys and 9-keys at the same time, just for the higher rankable key modes than 7K.

But i see it like this: osu! is a completely free-to-play/free-to-win game. It always was and should always stay like this.
Removing this rule would restrict player in playable content which don't can or don't want to buy new hardware just for this game.

osu! standard has many tablet players, yes. But it was always an optional option. They do not need it to reach the highest ranks.

Removing this rule would make it at some point mandatory to buy new hardware for this game, to reach the highest ranks. Which is somehow against this "Free to play/Free to win" policy of osu!

I can understand arguments like "Most of high rank players have top tier keyboards anyways", this might be true. But there are still people who don't have it and/or don't want it. I am btw one of them. (At least in osu!mania)

Therefore i am against removing this rule.
I would welcome removing pattern restrictions, but i want even more that osu! is a game for everyone to "win". For everyone to be able to reach the highest rank without buying extra hardware.

You're adamant about this being a free-to-play game, I understand that point. I agree that the game should be free-to-advance too.

But when avoiding 7K chords intentionally hurts both the mapping community and the player community at a high level, it does appear ironic.

This will likely not take effect immediately, but consider having higher tier maps on the ranking side. It'll at least make high-level ranked appear more enticing in osu!mania compared to other rhythm game. (ref. Problem in Player Progression and it's Migration to other VSRGs)

This issue occurs much more to 7*+ players, most of them understand why most players and mappers despise the ranking system if you'd play at that level.

---

Conclusion

Like it or not, osu!mania is losing the higher tier players if some other supported VSRG pops up that doesn't have this rule. This doubles as evidence that players want to play vetted and (very) difficult maps.

I would like to reiterate that this only occurs to 7*+ maps, I'm against on these chords for lower level players.

abraker:
"So what hardware configurations are we considering optional here? Specialized keyboards with N-key rollover, sure. A regular keyboard, no. Are 2 connected regular keyboards considered optional? Arguably, I can also claim that at some point it is mandatory to buy new hardware for this game. You need to buy a new keyboard after some time of playing mania due to the wear it does on the keyboard. I've been through a couple cheap keyboards already."

Same here, as a 7*+ player, I've gone through 3 keyboards, i don't think it's uncommon to go through more when you reach this level.

I probably shouldn't say too much since I'm a 4k guy, but honestly I'm kinda sympathetic to this idea.

Evening wrote:

Player progression is severely hindered by this rule, there's a tradeoff between having a free to play environment and giving the player and mapper the freedom to progress over 7*+ maps.

I have to say, this is a really good point. Allowing 7k chords would allow osu!mania to compete with other VSRGs a little more. From a BN's perspective the 7k scene is a lot less active than the 4k scene and removing a limitation such as this could help to bring back life into higher keymodes. The fact that it would require higher level players to have keyboards that support 7+ key presses is a big downside, but at the same time we're heavily limiting the potential to create higher level content by not allowing this.

One very important thing to consider, however, is that you'll probably want to avoid using SR as a limitation since SR ofc isn't a true indicator of difficulty and can change over time with changes in formulas.

So instead of limiting it by only allowing 7k chords in 7*+ maps, you could instead say that 7k chords are only allowed in Expert+ maps (which is a bit of a vague category but defined here). That'll make it a little more RC friendly and keep the intent of the amendment intact.

But I think this idea should be considered at least. It could do a lot of good for the 7k mapping community here.

-MysticEyes wrote:

I probably shouldn't say too much since I'm a 4k guy, but honestly I'm kinda sympathetic to this idea.

Evening wrote:

Player progression is severely hindered by this rule, there's a tradeoff between having a free to play environment and giving the player and mapper the freedom to progress over 7*+ maps.

I have to say, this is a really good point. Allowing 7k chords would allow osu!mania to compete with other VSRGs a little more. From a BN's perspective the 7k scene is a lot less active than the 4k scene and removing a limitation such as this could help to bring back life into higher keymodes. The fact that it would require higher level players to have keyboards that support 7+ key presses is a big downside, but at the same time we're heavily limiting the potential to create higher level content by not allowing this.

One very important thing to consider, however, is that you'll probably want to avoid using SR as a limitation since SR ofc isn't a true indicator of difficulty and can change over time with changes in formulas.

So instead of limiting it by only allowing 7k chords in 7*+ maps, you could instead say that 7k chords are only allowed in Expert+ maps (which is a bit of a vague category but defined here). That'll make it a little more RC friendly and keep the intent of the amendment intact.

But I think this idea should be considered at least. It could do a lot of good for the 7k mapping community here.

I guess we could all say the same to osu!standard players. Probably not all but from what I've seen, most of the top players are actually using tablet, which in other words, money spent on hardware.

actually we have seen a lot of 7+ note chord maps in the o!m cup
they were all impressive and creative, quality. so I'm actually agree to this forum

yes, the player takes at least 'three years' to reach 7*
so if this is allowed, It does not really affect to osu! policy. since all player enjoys their levels anyways

thus, need a certain level of skill to enjoy this content and almost inevitable to buy a top tier keyboard in the process of having this skill

also I agree to Feerum's opinion(free-to-play/free-to-win) but I believe this will be better future for o!m

i dont know if this has been said but i know of people that cant even play 4k maps because their keyboard can only register 3 at a time
by that logic we should not even allow quads in 4k maps to be rankable
???
that just doesnt make sense at all. the fact that theres a 6 notes max restriction makes zero sense, and as a mapper i would not be able to restrict myself on mapping in that way so i feel sympathetic to this cause for sure

I'd kinda like to bump this because I think the arguments for allowing higher number chords are really solid.

If this really goes against the spirit of the game to allow 7+k chords to the majority of people then nothing can be done about it, but I think it would be better for a definite decision to be made on this rather than the thread dying. I still definitely support this proposal though because it would really invigorate higher key communities. As I stated before I've noticed that less and less higher key mappers have been pushing things lately so this could potentially inspire more 7k mappers to actually push stuff.

i can see anything +6 stars having 7 notes chords, (https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/875074 the top diff in map should've been easily had the 7 notes chords added in the blast sfx part)

the current rule is obsolete in many ways, about free to play stuff, the game/software is should be free forever, but its just, the hardware, people have buy their gears in the first place no matter what, not free. at one point people who are passionate enough in the game for years will get a better peripherals, regardless the game mode they are playing, and as 7K main, i can see better future in 7K community as well with this rule applied.

i highly support this rule change/removal

I tried to get an "okay" from the upper staff on this rule change to get of from my worries that it would go against the "free-to-win/free-to-play" policy of osu! But after several tries i got no response so they don't seem to care at all so i stopped to do either.

We talked several times about it with the BNs on the BN Server and we came to an idea which could probably work pretty well but i also would like to hear your opinion about it @Evening and of course of everyone else.

The idea was to allow 7-Notes at once in Expert difficulties which also fulfill following Criteria:

1. It has to be the highest difficulty in the set.
2. It has to be an Expert difficulty (That would avoid that we get 7-Noted Chords in Insane difficulties in a E/N/H/I spread)
3. And it has to fit into a reasonable spread with the difficulty below the highest. This is to avoid that you jump from 4-Noted chords directly into 7-Noted chords.

Would love to hear feedback on it!

100% support this! This way it won't be tied to SR and still keep the original intent of of the amendment and be tied to higher level 7/8/9k maps.

Feerum wrote:

The idea was to allow 7-Notes at once in Expert difficulties which also fulfill following Criteria:

1. It has to be the highest difficulty in the set.
2. It has to be an Expert difficulty (That would avoid that we get 7-Noted Chords in Insane difficulties in a E/N/H/I spread)
3. And it has to fit into a reasonable spread with the difficulty below the highest. This is to avoid that you jump from 4-Noted chords directly into 7-Noted chords.

Would love to hear feedback on it!

Quote: It has to be the highest difficulty in the set.
While not common, there can exist multiple expert maps that need 7 note chords, I personally wouldn't restrict it to that because it's no different from the mapper splitting the mapset into 2 mapsets then ranking them separately. It's a roundabout way, but it makes the rule redundant.

I'm ok with other points, the last point may be redundant to add to the criteria since it matches with the "reasonable spread" rule

Okay yeah, that's true. We could remove the "Must be highest difficulty" part.
Not unusual that especially higher bpm songs have several expert difficulties.

However i would still think that the reasonable spread part should stay or at least give that into the BNs hand to judge.
People tend to have different meanings of what a reasonable spread is. It just to avoid too big jumps in the pattern spread.

Otherwise nice to hear you are cool with it!

:eyes: wokest moment

I dont agree with it. Well whatever, just let everyone decide.

Aishdoll- wrote:

I dont agree with it. Well whatever, just let everyone decide.

why

Who wants to put dump in 7K ? 🤔🤔🤔

Aishdoll- wrote:

I dont agree with it. Well whatever, just let everyone decide.

Onta_Sama wrote:

Who wants to put dump in 7K ? 🤔🤔🤔

before this gets out of hand, consider elaborating on your point if you disagree with it, i don't wish to have this topic filled with rhetorical questions and disagreements with no elaboration.

Evening wrote:

Onta_Sama wrote:

Who wants to put dump in 7K ? 🤔🤔🤔

before this gets out of hand, consider elaborating on your point if you disagree with it, i don't wish to have this topic filled with rhetorical questions and disagreements with no elaboration.

Sorry about that. Actually i'm little disagree to put dump in 7K since it would make the points are over emphasized, and also it kinda can decsrease the aesthethic of the chart it self . But that isn't a big problem since everyone have his own representation.

Onta_Sama wrote:

Evening wrote:

Onta_Sama wrote:

Who wants to put dump in 7K ? 🤔🤔🤔

before this gets out of hand, consider elaborating on your point if you disagree with it, i don't wish to have this topic filled with rhetorical questions and disagreements with no elaboration.

Sorry about that. Actually i'm little disagree to put dump in 7K since it would make the points are over emphasized, and also it kinda can decsrease the aesthethic of the chart it self . But that isn't a big problem since everyone have his own representation.

Sorry but I'm not entirely sure how adding 7+ chords to 7-9k maps would classify as a dumpy technique. That's roughly equivalent to saying that quad usage in 4k classifies as a dumpy technique since it fills all available columns and that...doesn't make sense in my opinion. Once you reach a certain difficulty level in higher keymodes I'm fairly certain that usage of larger chords can be perfectly justified in the music as a result of a higher level map's higher density. And if that usage is justified by the difficulty level of the map, the mapper's style, and the music itself (though that last bit is super subjective), than it's a legitimate technique in my book. The proposed rule covers that quite well in my opinion by limiting larger chord usage to high level difficulties only. I think it's important to consider the fact that osu!mania has a super diverse community and many 7k+ mappers (and players!) believe that 7+ chords (or LN patterns that cause 7+ columns to be covered at once) is essential for higher level play. We sorely lack higher level maps for higher keymodes, so I think we need to implement this in order to retain higher level 7k+ players and mappers. This is especially important since there's barely any content for higher keymodes these days in ranked.

Onta_Sama wrote:

Evening wrote:

Onta_Sama wrote:

Who wants to put dump in 7K ? 🤔🤔🤔

before this gets out of hand, consider elaborating on your point if you disagree with it, i don't wish to have this topic filled with rhetorical questions and disagreements with no elaboration.

Sorry about that. Actually i'm little disagree to put dump in 7K since it would make the points are over emphasized, and also it kinda can decsrease the aesthethic of the chart it self . But that isn't a big problem since everyone have his own representation.

Allowing 7k+ chord doesn't translate into allowing/making dumps in 7K, I'm kinda curious as to why and where did you get that idea from. Consider elaborating your point properly. Mind you that you can also make dumps without the limitation of this rule.
Also why would it decrease the aesthetics of a chart? and from what aspect? Instead, I believe this would give more opportunities to make charts with better aesthetics and unique patterning.

Great idea. Glad to see this rule in the future! I hope that old top player will be back ~ honestly, 7chord is really challenging but its fun! Even I can't play 7K properly but I love it >_<

So this rule change got a proper amount of feedback over time. I guess it would be slowly time to push it, additional feedback can be then still given here or in git.
But we need a proper wording for it first.
Since it seem to be cool with having it from Expert difficulties I would suggest moving this to a guideline in following wording:

There should not be more than 6 Notes pressed at any given moment in Insane or lower difficulties. Using more than 6 Notes must also follow a reasonable spread to the next lower difficulty. This guideline does not apply to ends of long notes, as they are released, not pressed.

An additional idea would be to just move the Rule to every difficulty from Easy to Insane. In Expert this rule would not be added anymore and so it would be possible to have more than 6 Notes in Expert difficulties.
But I fear this way could be misunderstand.

What do you think?

Wording seems pretty solid to me imo

As for the alternative idea, I think it's decent but yeah it could definitely cause misunderstandings since the no 7 chord rule has been around for so long that people might assume that it's a mistake and that the guideline would apply to extra diffs too.

Edit: I'm dumb, I meant "since the no 7 chord rule has been around for so long that people might asume that it's a mistake and that the rule would apply to extra diffs too"

I'm okay with just adding that as a rule, since that's the only one I read. idk about guidelines, they seem very bloated and overinformative, but that's a problem for another time

Maps with 7+ chords (say, 7 notes on different columns in a <=50-100ms period) should have a warning displayed on the map page, or even on the listing.

https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2344 made a pull request for this Rule change.
After asking at the BN Server once more it seem to be better keeping this as a Rule. Making it a Guideline could let imply that 6+ Notes are allowed in Easy - Insane

some kind i'm agree with this rule for my future mapping however, there's has pros and cons as well. Guess i don't need to explain more about it because everyone know it....uh i think.

Feerum wrote:

An additional idea would be to just move the Rule to every difficulty from Easy to Insane. In Expert this rule would not be added anymore and so it would be possible to have more than 6 Notes in Expert difficulties.

But I fear this way could be misunderstand.

what i think can be done is to have the rule under easy to insane then have a guideline under expert on the usage of 7+ note chords. 'expert' in higher keymodes is pretty broad so i think there should still be a guideline that is against the use of 7+ note chords in the lower tier of expert diffs and mostly allow it only for the high level maps similar to what Evening said in the original post.

despite the connotations this poses towards improving top-end osu!mania beatmapping, something about the idea of having a soft hardware requirement for progression in a gamemode feels fundamentally at odds with the whole free-to-win aspect of osu! and is probably a major factor as to why the rule is how it is in the first place

have any stats been pulled on what the average KRO is on standard and low-end hardware?

KeppSado wrote:

Feerum wrote:

An additional idea would be to just move the Rule to every difficulty from Easy to Insane. In Expert this rule would not be added anymore and so it would be possible to have more than 6 Notes in Expert difficulties.

But I fear this way could be misunderstand.

what i think can be done is to have the rule under easy to insane then have a guideline under expert on the usage of 7+ note chords. 'expert' in higher keymodes is pretty broad so i think there should still be a guideline that is against the use of 7+ note chords in the lower tier of expert diffs and mostly allow it only for the high level maps similar to what Evening said in the original post.

@Feerum:

I'm seconding this idea of shifting it higher above the expert spectrum, I originally intended for 7*+, in which is a safe area to assume that a majority of players has upgraded to a keyboard that avoids this issue.

While I understand it should be "named", I doubt we will get a good consensus of players at 5.25* level to switch keyboard to increase in rank. Is Ultra (black icon) an agreed name? idk

I'm quite confident that maps below 7* will rarely use 7+ chords.

Your call Feerum, I'm thinking of making it only Ultra icon which is 7* if I'm not mistaken.

Ephemeral wrote:

have any stats been pulled on what the average KRO is on standard and low-end hardware?

Most USB devices support up to 6KRO unless they have something fancy.


This benefits most top-tier players who already likely invested in devices to compete in other VSRGs as well. This proposal already applies only for Ultra difficulties, so I don't see an issue.

Evening wrote:

@Feerum:I'm seconding this idea of shifting it higher above the expert spectrum, I originally intended for 7*+, in which is a safe area to assume that a majority of players has upgraded to a keyboard that avoids this issue.

While I understand it should be "named", I doubt we will get a good consensus of players at 5.25* level to switch keyboard to increase in rank. Is Ultra (black icon) an agreed name? idk

I'm quite confident that maps below 7* will rarely use 7+ chords.

Your call Feerum, I'm thinking of making it only Ultra icon which is 7* if I'm not mistaken.

Hmm.. i don't have a problem with having it either from Expert or "Ultra". The only problem is that "Ultra" is not yet an official difficult naming, at least it is not stated anywhere in the wiki/any ranking criteria as far as i know.

I understand that Everything below 7* would rarely use this 7-Noted patterns, but they still could restricting mapper. If we have this as a Rule, there is no way around it even if a mapset would have 6.95*. They would have to stick to the rule and could not use more than 6-Noted pattern. So making it from Expert would avoid such stuff.

Also having it from Expert would also make it easier for us to implement it. Otherwise we would first need to define what an "Ultra" difficulty is.

-----------------------------------------------------

Okay but before we can move all this, peppy mentioned of making a poll with a sample beatmap to first see how many people would be able to play such a beatmap. And i also think that this would be a good idea, just to have it clear it this would affect player somehow in any negative way.
If we could proof that this is not the case, it would be easier to counter the "Free-to-win" aspect of the game. I am awaiting a reply on the github issue for this. If he agrees i will setup a poll with a beatmap (beatmap probably by someone else) asap.

Ephemeral wrote:

despite the connotations this poses towards improving top-end osu!mania beatmapping, something about the idea of having a soft hardware requirement for progression in a gamemode feels fundamentally at odds with the whole free-to-win aspect of osu! and is probably a major factor as to why the rule is how it is in the first place

have any stats been pulled on what the average KRO is on standard and low-end hardware?

Refer to what -mint- brought up

-mint- wrote:

i dont know if this has been said but i know of people that cant even play 4k maps because their keyboard can only register 3 at a time
by that logic we should not even allow quads in 4k maps to be rankable
???
that just doesnt make sense at all. the fact that theres a 6 notes max restriction makes zero sense, and as a mapper i would not be able to restrict myself on mapping in that way so i feel sympathetic to this cause for sure

Since keyboards can be as low as 2kro how is mania as a whole not disturbing the free-to-win aspect of osu? At the level this rule would be put in place, I'd expect the players to be able to press 7 keys at once. A ton of top players play either bms or o2jam where you will come across patterns which would break the current =<6 rule.

As for the free-to-win aspect of osu, while I don't doubt it's the goal for staff/developers, the playerbase doesn't encourage that too much. Getting good keyboards is very common for mania and standard, and standard also has the meta of buying tablets for play. The way I see it, a free-to-win aspect should be preserved for a majority of the playerbase to allow accessibility (one of osu's strengths imo). Beginners typically won't dip into the 'get better gear' meta, of course. However, for a part of the ranked section where very good players will be playing, I think it's more than reasonable to expect that someone can press 7 keys at a time

Oh I thought this year was 2014

I don't believe it's necessary to restrict the 7key presses to Ultra difficulty maps. First, since star rating is mostly based around note density, any map with a 7 key press pattern is likely to have a fairly high star rating to begin with. The 7key presses will actually increase that star rating themselves.

I suppose cutting it off at 6 stars would be more reasonable, but even then I think it should really be a guideline rather than a hard rule. We should keep in mind that star rating is a VERY poor indicator of actual map difficulty at higher ratings, particularly bad above 5 stars or so.

merged