std person here, just popping in to request y'all try to stick to glossary terms being singular instead of plural, for consistency w/ the other sections of the rc. ty~
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[Proposal] osu!mania Ranking Criteria (whole draft)
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Long notes that are held simultaneously must be released at the same time.
I think Long Notes may be released at different time if the deviation between each releases is pretty long. I remember some music have two distinguishable string instruments, one ended a measure or two later than the other. That, I think is still manageable for newbies. Probably add some exception for LNs with releases deviation exceeding 2 or 3 seconds for Easy and 1 or 2 seconds for Normal. Or just use how many measures or beats are acceptable for LNs to have different release time.
Note snappings of consecutive 1/8 and higher should not be used.
An exception to this rule would be the usage of grace notes that are at higher-end snaps (1/8, 1/12 and 1/16) as they are only used to accentuate gracing sounds.
I think stating how much note a grace are acceptable at this difficulty would be beneficial. Or how it correlate with the lesser difficulty. Hard with 1/8 grace with three notes would felt like a spike if the Normal counterpart only uses single notes or doubles.
I think stating how much note a grace are acceptable at this difficulty would be beneficial. Or how it correlate with the lesser difficulty. Hard with 1/8 grace with three notes would felt like a spike if the Normal counterpart only uses single notes or doubles.
[img:1337][/img:1337]Can we finally have 7 simultaneously notes rankable?
Is this mean we can put 5 1/4 on faster bpm song? which certainly not cool, Or is there any certain bpm threshold for this?
5 consecutive 1/4 notes
Is this mean we can put 5 1/4 on faster bpm song? which certainly not cool, Or is there any certain bpm threshold for this?
Kawawa
Difficulty Specific
- Insane Guidelines
Using jump trills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. Unless a beatmap uses jacks frequently or other complex patterns frequently, this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the mini jack.
- Insane Guidelines
Using jump trills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. Unless a beatmap uses jacks frequently or other complex patterns frequently, this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the mini jack.
umm I know It's for guidelines but here something weird a bit.
If we restrict it, all the jump trills will have the same type to avoid a jack. and especially for 4K, the limit of SR is depends on the BPM. so most of them are ended as Insane difficulty. so most 4K mapsets will be same place on the ground If we mind it. so yeah It will make a huge change in the future. so before making the final decision for insane guidelines, need to think the past. what I'm trying to say is that the thing has never been considered in the past of osu!mania history since the communities are satisfied about the freedom of pattern choices. And yeah still not really have a negative impact because It's preferentially judged by BNs in the process of the ranked. so I wonder it should be on here.
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion.
anyways, all the rest are fine to me. good work!
Arzenvald wrote:
5 consecutive 1/4 notes
Is this mean we can put 5 1/4 on faster bpm song? which certainly not cool, Or is there any certain bpm threshold for this?
I remember reading the preface of difficulty-specifics saying guidelines are using BPM180 as the standard and anything faster/slower should use it reasonably.
EDIT: Yea it's definitely up there. I just checked.
yea, im agree with kawawaKawawa wrote:
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion.
Beatmaps can only use 4 to 9 keys. Anything else is not properly supported.
What does "not properly supported" mean? Other key modes play properly in the game client.
Long notes that are held simultaneously must be released at the same time. Long notes with multiple release timings require coordination that players of this level cannot reasonably handle.
Forbidding this pattern for Easy and Normal seems a bit excessive to me. If there is a progression in difficulty from Easy -> Normal -> Hard, players should attain the muscle memory required for basic LN patterns before they encounter some more advanced LN patterns in Hard maps.
I think this should be a guideline for Easy instead, and restricted only to LNs that are released with the same hand. For normal, make it a guideline that restricts different release times if they are in fingers that are next to each other. Also, for both difficulties, there should be a minimum of time between one release and the next one (about 2 seconds for Easy and 1 second for Normal sounds fine to me).
Some terminology mess-ups
A [12][34] jumptrill also requires both hands to perform correctly. You might want to define it as a jumptrill which requires two one-hand trill motions to perform correctly instead.
The term "one-hand trill" should also be added if you have "split jumptrill" in the glossary.
Split jumptrill: A jumptrill which uses both hands at the same time to perform correctly - i.e two one-handed trills.
A [12][34] jumptrill also requires both hands to perform correctly. You might want to define it as a jumptrill which requires two one-hand trill motions to perform correctly instead.
The term "one-hand trill" should also be added if you have "split jumptrill" in the glossary.
General guidelines
The guideline did not state whether the note-to-sound correlation must be consistent (barring exceptional circumstances). This is particularly important to distinguish because there are many maps that are not necessarily consistent in its layering in the ranked section, yet layering consistency is something that is valued in many mapping circles. I mentioned this before in the previous draft, but I didn't receive a response.
There are also certain notes that technically go to multiple sounds at the same time, like a LN where the LN head is justified by a hi-hat and the LN aspect of the note being justified by a syllable (vocals). Certain moments of the song with no percussion but vocals will not have any note in that moment of the map. How do you deal with cases like these, where a certain type of note (not but the note itself) correlates with a sound?
There are also some edge cases where notes do not strictly correlate with the start and end of a sound should be added because of the properties of the sounds that are supposed to be captured, but that's a different discussion altogether. I wouldn't mind discussing about this further with the people at hand.
- Almost all instances where a section is unreasonable to play if a map were to capture a rhythm with maximal accuracy are due to inappropriate difficulty spikes in terms to either physical demand or rhythmic complexity. "would be unreasonable to play with full accuracy" is redundant and should be removed.
- What does this mean for instances like using a 1/6 stream for a 1/8 rhythm? A 1/4 non-LN stream (or even 1/2 non-LN stream) to capture a 1/8 rhythm has been permitted before, and a 1/6 stream is typically more effective in representing a 1/8 rhythm than a 1/4 stream in terms of general intensity. There are also cases like 1/16 swing that have to be considered.
- "Difficulty spike" needs to be defined further. Are you referring to difficulty spikes in terms of density, or can it refer to difficulty spikes in timing difficulty? Maximally accurate guitar solos are notorious for being very difficult to time for KB play, and they would be considered "spiky" despite not being too much harder than a straight 1/4 or a 1/6 stream.
The rule seems pointless without giving a justification for why this rule is instated. The only reason that I can think of is that you would like releases to be justified by the "release" aspect of a note, but many many maps already violate this rule if you were to care about releases that stringently.
There are also occasions where releases on different snaps would be justified based on where the notes end in the song.
Every note should correlate to a sound present in the music.
The guideline did not state whether the note-to-sound correlation must be consistent (barring exceptional circumstances). This is particularly important to distinguish because there are many maps that are not necessarily consistent in its layering in the ranked section, yet layering consistency is something that is valued in many mapping circles. I mentioned this before in the previous draft, but I didn't receive a response.
There are also certain notes that technically go to multiple sounds at the same time, like a LN where the LN head is justified by a hi-hat and the LN aspect of the note being justified by a syllable (vocals). Certain moments of the song with no percussion but vocals will not have any note in that moment of the map. How do you deal with cases like these, where a certain type of note (not but the note itself) correlates with a sound?
There are also some edge cases where notes do not strictly correlate with the start and end of a sound should be added because of the properties of the sounds that are supposed to be captured, but that's a different discussion altogether. I wouldn't mind discussing about this further with the people at hand.
Exceptions in favor of simplification should be made when following the music completely accurately...
would be unreasonable to play with full accuracy.
would be effectively represented with a consistent, predictable snap
would cause an inappropriate difficulty spike.
- Almost all instances where a section is unreasonable to play if a map were to capture a rhythm with maximal accuracy are due to inappropriate difficulty spikes in terms to either physical demand or rhythmic complexity. "would be unreasonable to play with full accuracy" is redundant and should be removed.
- What does this mean for instances like using a 1/6 stream for a 1/8 rhythm? A 1/4 non-LN stream (or even 1/2 non-LN stream) to capture a 1/8 rhythm has been permitted before, and a 1/6 stream is typically more effective in representing a 1/8 rhythm than a 1/4 stream in terms of general intensity. There are also cases like 1/16 swing that have to be considered.
- "Difficulty spike" needs to be defined further. Are you referring to difficulty spikes in terms of density, or can it refer to difficulty spikes in timing difficulty? Maximally accurate guitar solos are notorious for being very difficult to time for KB play, and they would be considered "spiky" despite not being too much harder than a straight 1/4 or a 1/6 stream.
Long notes should not have release timings that use different timing snaps. For example, long note releases should not have a 1/3 snap on the end of it and a 1/4 snap at the end of another.
The rule seems pointless without giving a justification for why this rule is instated. The only reason that I can think of is that you would like releases to be justified by the "release" aspect of a note, but many many maps already violate this rule if you were to care about releases that stringently.
There are also occasions where releases on different snaps would be justified based on where the notes end in the song.
Difficulty-specific guidelines:
Normal
This is extremely important (and I'm not sure if this is overlooked), but consecutive 1/4 snaps should be three notes long at least. In a map with mostly 1/2 rhythms, a 1/4 gallop (2 consecutive 1/4s) requires omitting a potential 1/2 note, which would cause timing difficulties (especially for new players) and major issues if you were to layer a certain sound consistently.
If Normal is the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set, it has to abide by these additional rules:
Consecutive 1/4 snaps may only be two notes long. More dense rhythms are not appropriate for the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set.
This is extremely important (and I'm not sure if this is overlooked), but consecutive 1/4 snaps should be three notes long at least. In a map with mostly 1/2 rhythms, a 1/4 gallop (2 consecutive 1/4s) requires omitting a potential 1/2 note, which would cause timing difficulties (especially for new players) and major issues if you were to layer a certain sound consistently.
Hard
You should specify that you are referring to 1/4 jack usage. 1/2 jacks (90 BPM 1/4s in this example) are usually far more bearable to players who are just approaching Hard difficulties.
I believe that giving a set frequency for the number of doubles that can be used per beat would be better here. Doubles every 2/1 seems like a more reasonable cutoff than "only a chord in the beginning and/or the end".
Jack usage is discouraged. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level. Minijacks with ample rest time in between may be acceptable.
You should specify that you are referring to 1/4 jack usage. 1/2 jacks (90 BPM 1/4s in this example) are usually far more bearable to players who are just approaching Hard difficulties.
If Hard is the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set, it has to abide by these additional guidelines:
Chords within streams are discouraged. The density of these patterns is often too difficult for players of this skill level, especially when used on the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set. However, using a chord at the beginning/end of a stream is fine.
I believe that giving a set frequency for the number of doubles that can be used per beat would be better here. Doubles every 2/1 seems like a more reasonable cutoff than "only a chord in the beginning and/or the end".
Insane
Is this only referring to non-rolly streams? There are several maps that have very long 1/8 rolls that are permitted into the ranked section (e.g. Blue Dragon). If you're referring to non-rolly streams, do include that.
This does not align with the Hard guideline where 1/4 minijacks are practically not perimtted (barring minijacks that are very infrequent). A jumptrill is a very simple motion, and a minijack into a triple is not particularly difficult. I don't mind this rule personally, but it seems a bit odd to disallow minijacks like that when those patterns are only hard when they appear frequently.
This should be rephrased as "5-note split jumptrills". That said, I think that 9-note split jumptrills should be the maximum instead of 5. This one is a bit more contentious, though.
Avoid 1/8 streams lasting longer than 4 beats. Streams of this type of snap are hard to execute and should only be used if the song warrants it.
Is this only referring to non-rolly streams? There are several maps that have very long 1/8 rolls that are permitted into the ranked section (e.g. Blue Dragon). If you're referring to non-rolly streams, do include that.
Using jump trills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. Unless a beatmap uses jacks frequently or other complex patterns frequently, this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the mini jack.
This does not align with the Hard guideline where 1/4 minijacks are practically not perimtted (barring minijacks that are very infrequent). A jumptrill is a very simple motion, and a minijack into a triple is not particularly difficult. I don't mind this rule personally, but it seems a bit odd to disallow minijacks like that when those patterns are only hard when they appear frequently.
Avoid more than 5 consecutive split jump trills. These are more physically exhausting than other patterns of similar density.
This should be rephrased as "5-note split jumptrills". That said, I think that 9-note split jumptrills should be the maximum instead of 5. This one is a bit more contentious, though.
Other things that I didn't list I didn't think they were issues, or I've never tried experimenting with (e.g. SVs).
Apologies if this was listed anywhere, but what is the goal of the new ranking criteria? I understand that the ranking criteria is supposed to be something like "minimum requirements" for maps, and the updated ranking criteria seems to have more specific rules on the minimum requirements for specific difficulties, but is there any other motive behind the updated ranking criteria?
For instance, there was a discussion on whether dump charting/mapping should be permitted, but there are several rules that go against this (e.g. the general LN length guideline and how each note must correlate to specific sounds). I'm personally ambivalent on the idea of allowing dumps, but I know that a fair section of the community is quite accepting of dump charting.
Besides that, are there any other goals or motives that the updated ranking criteria is set to accomplish? Again, I apologise if this has been mentioned before, but I haven't been in tune with the ranked section community or the ranking criteria because the circles that I'm in don't focus on the ranked section to begin with.
Regarding Jumptrill
You could omit the second last jump as single and still ending the Jumptrill with triples, though. The pattern itself is fine but as far as I can see this kind of patterning are abused to pump up SRs which is not very good either. And speaking of Jumptrill variation, 90% Jumptrills I see up until now are full jumptrill ended with triples so I guess this guideline actually enforces Variation (?) Yea it wasn't a big deal but it may improve a map presentation quite a bit.
Kawawa wrote:
umm I know It's for guidelines but here something weird a bit.
If we restrict it, all the jump trills will have the same type to avoid a jack. and especially for 4K, the limit of SR is depends on the BPM. so most of them are ended as Insane difficulty. so most 4K mapsets will be same place on the ground If we mind it. so yeah It will make a huge change in the future. so before making the final decision for insane guidelines, need to think the past. what I'm trying to say is that the thing has never been considered in the past of osu!mania history since the communities are satisfied about the freedom of pattern choices. And yeah still not really have a negative impact because It's preferentially judged by BNs in the process of the ranked. so I wonder it should be on here.
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion.
anyways, all the rest are fine to me. good work!
You could omit the second last jump as single and still ending the Jumptrill with triples, though. The pattern itself is fine but as far as I can see this kind of patterning are abused to pump up SRs which is not very good either. And speaking of Jumptrill variation, 90% Jumptrills I see up until now are full jumptrill ended with triples so I guess this guideline actually enforces Variation (?) Yea it wasn't a big deal but it may improve a map presentation quite a bit.
Consecutive 1/4s on Normal
This is also my concern about this rule as gallops doesn't simplify a triplets. But I also thought that if Normal are using 1/4s triplets, wouldn't it be similar to Hard?Shoegazer wrote:
This is extremely important (and I'm not sure if this is overlooked), but consecutive 1/4 snaps should be three notes long at least. In a map with mostly 1/2 rhythms, a 1/4 gallop (2 consecutive 1/4s) requires omitting a potential 1/2 note, which would cause timing difficulties (especially for new players) and major issues if you were to layer a certain sound consistently.
Insane Guideline: Avoid using chords in 1/8 streams.
Honestly I never see an "Insane" map using chords mid-1/8 stream in ranked lul, even when the 1/8 streams are in roll. But my thought lies within the "Using a chord at the beginning or end of a stream is fine". You didn't specify what chord are acceptable for the stream opening and ending. Using triples at the start would made stuff feels awkward while using triples at the ending is pretty hard to execute. Or heck, you can still use quads for the opening and ending (which would be the worst case scenario but I think people aren't that dumb).
Yea, just define what chord are acceptable for the opening and ending portion of the stream.
Yea, just define what chord are acceptable for the opening and ending portion of the stream.
Kawawa
MEGAtive wrote:
Regarding JumptrillYou could omit the second last jump as single and still ending the Jumptrill with triples, though. The pattern itself is fine but as far as I can see this kind of patterning are abused to pump up SRs which is not very good either. And speaking of Jumptrill variation, 90% Jumptrills I see up until now are full jumptrill ended with triples so I guess this guideline actually enforces Variation (?) Yea it wasn't a big deal but it may improve a map presentation quite a bit.Kawawa wrote:
umm I know It's for guidelines but here something weird a bit.
If we restrict it, all the jump trills will have the same type to avoid a jack. and especially for 4K, the limit of SR is depends on the BPM. so most of them are ended as Insane difficulty. so most 4K mapsets will be same place on the ground If we mind it. so yeah It will make a huge change in the future. so before making the final decision for insane guidelines, need to think the past. what I'm trying to say is that the thing has never been considered in the past of osu!mania history since the communities are satisfied about the freedom of pattern choices. And yeah still not really have a negative impact because It's preferentially judged by BNs in the process of the ranked. so I wonder it should be on here.
If this is really needed, It should be applied for hard difficulty or when insane diff is not a last level of the mapsets(like ENH"I"I), should be.
so It has to make an exception case like this in my opinion. anyways, all the rest are fine to me. good work!
If It causes a potential point of making a mindblock, It does not have to be defined exactly as what I mentioned eariler because judgements about reasonable points are performed by BNs. but If It's included only that meaning what you said, I agree. It's yeah make sense. but well, perhaps because of the difference in the interpretation of the sentences. so yeah in case
MEGAtive wrote:
Insane Guideline: Avoid using chords in 1/8 streams.Honestly I never see an "Insane" map using chords mid-1/8 stream in ranked lul, even when the 1/8 streams are in roll. But my thought lies within the "Using a chord at the beginning or end of a stream is fine". You didn't specify what chord are acceptable for the stream opening and ending. Using triples at the start would made stuff feels awkward while using triples at the ending is pretty hard to execute. Or heck, you can still use quads for the opening and ending (which would be the worst case scenario but I think people aren't that dumb).
Yea, just define what chord are acceptable for the opening and ending portion of the stream.
I think just talking about insane as 1 difficulty can be tough since a 4.8 star is still an insane difficulty. I personally think it should be split up into a higher insane and lower insane araound 4.4 or 4.5 since its a pretty big gap in between
tailsdk wrote:
I think just talking about insane as 1 difficulty can be tough since a 4.8 star is still an insane difficulty. I personally think it should be split up into a higher insane and lower insane araound 4.4 or 4.5 since its a pretty big gap in between
I think since they try to make things very friendly with the Normal and Hard as lowest difficulty, this is probably aimed as a Lower Insane.
MEGAtive wrote:
tailsdk wrote:
I think just talking about insane as 1 difficulty can be tough since a 4.8 star is still an insane difficulty. I personally think it should be split up into a higher insane and lower insane araound 4.4 or 4.5 since its a pretty big gap in between
I think since they try to make things very friendly with the Normal and Hard as lowest difficulty, this is probably aimed as a Lower Insane.
Yeah i agree its aimed at a lower insane but there should be something mentioning that
Quote: tailsdk
To be honest it's quite useless for being so, not to mention the SR system is broken and pushing a rule over that is completely absurd, and yes, Hard can be count as easier Insane already, and it's depending in the song with the top diff's patterning in thus to compares the amount of notes using between diffs is reasonable or not for the spread itself.
The terms of Light/Easier diff of the main diff with the same icon would only make senses whenever it does need a diff between it to fulfill the spread
Example: Normal / Hard / Light Insane / Insane / Extra (1,94* / 3,21* / 5,1* / 5,07* / 5,87* ) - And remember that SR isn't matter
Or else wouldn't make it on the right term
Bad example: Normal / Hard / Light Insane (1,78* / 2,9* / 3,82*) and meanwhile why Insane is the only diff have the light name while the other didn't? I remember there was once time people using the "+" term for diffname too in the same case and ended up have to DQ to remove that because obliviously it only have one diff on the same icon.
TLDR: using chord or not is depending on how you control your spread, and you got the point of "harder" insane and "light" extra shouldn't be included, but as MEGAtive said, I also don't see any one in the ranked map done that before (Or I did, maybe is Identity Part 3), but in that case, it's more on "patterning and BPM" instead, and since hard isn't even possible for 1/8 (for example: 180 tempo), adding chord between 1/8 on insane will make you needs to have 2 Insane diffs to fulfill that anyway.
Why?
From then till now I have no problems in trying it and yet I saw most to everyone can do it perfectly to frequently in mapping.
Not only because it's now common that makes everyone can stick it with it in every maps but also for some reasons
But first, jumptrill with hand
[12] [34] [123]
[12] [34] [124]
[13] [24] [123]
[13] [24] [124]
[14] [23] [123]
[14] [23] [124]
Thus the opposites
Not to mention other possibilities as
[12] [24] [134]
[12] [23] [134]
...
And don't forget, 4K is not the only keymode have jumptrill
And why you need an extra note?
First in musical logic, if the bass continuously and have no changes in the volume, you can stick with 2 notes jumptrills for challenge and specific the difficulty of the map, and second is the cymbal after it, and yes it's common in most songs, making it 2 notes and classify it being the same with the bass/snare next to it is quite absurd because, kick/snare already 2 notes while cymbal + kick/snare should have higher amount of notes, when normal kick/snare regularly with jumptrill of 2 notes.
I would say it's more of the song itself, if it sounds lighter and you put the same jumptrill wouldn't make senses, meanwhile if its building up stronger and you delete a note before it would make any senses either, it lost the purpose of it, and thus, for consists between parts with that same kind of sounds. However, it's being more on the mapper's judgment of his/her's map as well, restricting something that already happens over the years would be pretty absurd since literally nobody to a real small amount of people did complains to it, over than that, I have never seen other having trauma from passing it during qualified section and yet I user it pretty common, even [12] [34] [1234] (so does 7K).
Mapping it in a freedom way, let the mapper choose what is the best for the map, but yet needs to be reasoning for it, as I mentioned above, so this guideline is quite useless imo.
And, I think I will post some opinions as well when I got the time
To be honest it's quite useless for being so, not to mention the SR system is broken and pushing a rule over that is completely absurd, and yes, Hard can be count as easier Insane already, and it's depending in the song with the top diff's patterning in thus to compares the amount of notes using between diffs is reasonable or not for the spread itself.
The terms of Light/Easier diff of the main diff with the same icon would only make senses whenever it does need a diff between it to fulfill the spread
Example: Normal / Hard / Light Insane / Insane / Extra (1,94* / 3,21* / 5,1* / 5,07* / 5,87* ) - And remember that SR isn't matter
Or else wouldn't make it on the right term
Bad example: Normal / Hard / Light Insane (1,78* / 2,9* / 3,82*) and meanwhile why Insane is the only diff have the light name while the other didn't? I remember there was once time people using the "+" term for diffname too in the same case and ended up have to DQ to remove that because obliviously it only have one diff on the same icon.
TLDR: using chord or not is depending on how you control your spread, and you got the point of "harder" insane and "light" extra shouldn't be included, but as MEGAtive said, I also don't see any one in the ranked map done that before (Or I did, maybe is Identity Part 3), but in that case, it's more on "patterning and BPM" instead, and since hard isn't even possible for 1/8 (for example: 180 tempo), adding chord between 1/8 on insane will make you needs to have 2 Insane diffs to fulfill that anyway.
Difficulty Specific
- Insane Guidelines
Using jump trills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. Unless a beatmap uses jacks frequently or other complex patterns frequently, this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the mini jack.
- Insane Guidelines
Using jump trills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. Unless a beatmap uses jacks frequently or other complex patterns frequently, this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the mini jack.
Why?
From then till now I have no problems in trying it and yet I saw most to everyone can do it perfectly to frequently in mapping.
Not only because it's now common that makes everyone can stick it with it in every maps but also for some reasons
But first, jumptrill with hand
[12] [34] [123]
[12] [34] [124]
[13] [24] [123]
[13] [24] [124]
[14] [23] [123]
[14] [23] [124]
Thus the opposites
Not to mention other possibilities as
[12] [24] [134]
[12] [23] [134]
...
And don't forget, 4K is not the only keymode have jumptrill
And why you need an extra note?
First in musical logic, if the bass continuously and have no changes in the volume, you can stick with 2 notes jumptrills for challenge and specific the difficulty of the map, and second is the cymbal after it, and yes it's common in most songs, making it 2 notes and classify it being the same with the bass/snare next to it is quite absurd because, kick/snare already 2 notes while cymbal + kick/snare should have higher amount of notes, when normal kick/snare regularly with jumptrill of 2 notes.
I would say it's more of the song itself, if it sounds lighter and you put the same jumptrill wouldn't make senses, meanwhile if its building up stronger and you delete a note before it would make any senses either, it lost the purpose of it, and thus, for consists between parts with that same kind of sounds. However, it's being more on the mapper's judgment of his/her's map as well, restricting something that already happens over the years would be pretty absurd since literally nobody to a real small amount of people did complains to it, over than that, I have never seen other having trauma from passing it during qualified section and yet I user it pretty common, even [12] [34] [1234] (so does 7K).
Mapping it in a freedom way, let the mapper choose what is the best for the map, but yet needs to be reasoning for it, as I mentioned above, so this guideline is quite useless imo.
And, I think I will post some opinions as well when I got the time
Jumptrill and Minijack again lul.
Well, it is still a guideline so it may be broken on practice. But speaking of freedom of choosing a pattern, most people only do (12)(34)(124) or (34)(12)(134) because of how exploitable it is for SR hence seldomly using other variation you just wrote. Also (12)(24)(124) is already a chordglut, not jumptrill anymore lul.
And yea the wording is kind of generalizing all the keymodes here, as higher keymodes tend to have these kind of patterns but not have them minijacked. I think it should be stated that this guideline only considers 4K since it's a pretty common keymode.
Kuo Kyoka wrote:
Why?
From then till now I have no problems in trying it and yet I saw most to everyone can do it perfectly to frequently in mapping.
Not only because it's now common that makes everyone can stick it with it in every maps but also for some reasons
But first, jumptrill with hand
[12] [34] [123]
[12] [34] [124]
[13] [24] [123]
[13] [24] [124]
[14] [23] [123]
[14] [23] [124]
Thus the opposites
Not to mention other possibilities as
[12] [24] [134]
[12] [23] [134]
...
And don't forget, 4K is not the only keymode have jumptrill
And why you need an extra note?
First in musical logic, if the bass continuously and have no changes in the volume, you can stick with 2 notes jumptrills for challenge and specific the difficulty of the map, and second is the cymbal after it, and yes it's common in most songs, making it 2 notes and classify it being the same with the bass/snare next to it is quite absurd because, kick/snare already 2 notes while cymbal + kick/snare should have higher amount of notes, when normal kick/snare regularly with jumptrill of 2 notes.
I would say it's more of the song itself, if it sounds lighter and you put the same jumptrill wouldn't make senses, meanwhile if its building up stronger and you delete a note before it would make any senses either, it lost the purpose of it, and thus, for consists between parts with that same kind of sounds. However, it's being more on the mapper's judgment of his/her's map as well, restricting something that already happens over the years would be pretty absurd since literally nobody to a real small amount of people did complains to it, over than that, I have never seen other having trauma from passing it during qualified section and yet I user it pretty common, even [12] [34] [1234] (so does 7K).
Mapping it in a freedom way, let the mapper choose what is the best for the map, but yet needs to be reasoning for it, as I mentioned above, so this guideline is quite useless imo.
And, I think I will post some opinions as well when I got the time
Well, it is still a guideline so it may be broken on practice. But speaking of freedom of choosing a pattern, most people only do (12)(34)(124) or (34)(12)(134) because of how exploitable it is for SR hence seldomly using other variation you just wrote. Also (12)(24)(124) is already a chordglut, not jumptrill anymore lul.
And yea the wording is kind of generalizing all the keymodes here, as higher keymodes tend to have these kind of patterns but not have them minijacked. I think it should be stated that this guideline only considers 4K since it's a pretty common keymode.
Kawawa
I think It's pointless to think of the possibility of being exploited in relation to that part. Yeah It's impact for SR, but a little.
so It does not increase that absolutely. As we know For 4K, determining the SR is depends on how long that trill lasts.
And about the jump between the trills is, It may be very uncomfortable according to the bpm, so It is necessary to know whether the chart has reached reasonably about that. but the jump at the end is actually works as an extra-code for the last part for highlight.
so yeah, communities are using it frequently but nevertheless no complaints. because they are mostly analogous in the way to reaching freedom of the pattern choices and reasonable points. so as I said, so for apply the guidelines reasonably It would be great when the mapsets have the two insane diff(so for lower insane diff). 4K is actually limited to songs that can reach 'EX' icon. so most of their last level are mapped to Insane diff. so It's frequently see the 4k sets have 2-3 Insane spread. therefore If it is exist, It can maintain the same way as the past for freedom of the pattern choices and provides a reasonable technique spread between two identical icons.
so It does not increase that absolutely. As we know For 4K, determining the SR is depends on how long that trill lasts.
And about the jump between the trills is, It may be very uncomfortable according to the bpm, so It is necessary to know whether the chart has reached reasonably about that. but the jump at the end is actually works as an extra-code for the last part for highlight.
so yeah, communities are using it frequently but nevertheless no complaints. because they are mostly analogous in the way to reaching freedom of the pattern choices and reasonable points. so as I said, so for apply the guidelines reasonably It would be great when the mapsets have the two insane diff(so for lower insane diff). 4K is actually limited to songs that can reach 'EX' icon. so most of their last level are mapped to Insane diff. so It's frequently see the 4k sets have 2-3 Insane spread. therefore If it is exist, It can maintain the same way as the past for freedom of the pattern choices and provides a reasonable technique spread between two identical icons.
Topic Starter
Much feedback till now, makes me happy to see this.
I gonna partially reply to some points and later to more!
First of all i want to mention that all rules and guidelines use as BPM 180. It seems some have overread this because they bring up different BPM/Songs as argument.
Most of Guidelines which would limit songs too much are exactly for this in Guidelines. We are fully aware that some Guidelines can get broken because a song simply calls for it!
First we wanted to make it a wider range, but we realized really fast that going too high/too low is not a good idea.
Let's take a player who plays on 24 Scroll speed, 1.1 would make it 26 over a longer section. This is really a noticeable and even when these two seem to not affect it much, i have to confirm it really does because i play on 24 and really have problems on 26.
However, it is indeed just a guideline because not everyone plays on 24. Some play the game faster/slower. Also a song might call for even more/less so we don't want to limit mapper too much.
Thanks! We will look at it as soon the week is over and we going to look over it again!
About using jump trills that lead to a hand:
I saw some brought up as argument older maps and that this was done already for a long time. Please let not start to take old maps as an example because really a lot of bad are far behind the mapping standard we hold up today. In the past random jacks and overall uncomfortable pattern were pretty common.
With this Guideline we want to avoid having pattern like this:
Many people miss on these pattern, and also the unnecessary mini-jack (to see on the screen on column 4) is there for no reason. Minijacks should at least have a reasoning when used, these are just very random placed and cause in an unnecessary difficult "spike". I read that some used emphasize as a argument and i have to contradict this. They emphasize absolute nothing. The hand is there to add a emphasis into the pattern, not the minijack.
However, please take into account that this is a Guideline. Especially on lower BPM such pattern can be nice to play, while they should really be completely avoided on higher BPM.
------------------------------------
Another thing i need to mention is: Please stop taking SR into account for this Ranking Criteria. It is true we used "SR" as a measure of difficulty in the past simply because it was worded like this in the old Ranking Criteria.
With the new Ranking Criteria we want to get rid all of SR-Related Rules and Guidelines (And they will be removed from the General Ranking Criteria as soon this draft is finalized)
A low BPM E/E/N/N spread can be treated as E/N/H/I, only by used pattern.
The meaning behind the difficult-specific Rules and Guidelines is to set a line when does a Normal count as Normal, when does a Hard count as Hard etc.
Yes, i know. Dumps were a topic like a half year ago, and it's really not completely gone. We simply reached a dead end in the discussion that's why we put it on ice for now to push at least the normal Ranking Criteria. (will reply to more of your points later!)
We removed the "+" now already some years ago. But the reasoning was not because of some diff icon or anything else. "+" is just an extremly bad way to call a diff. What does it mean? What is a "Hard+"? Is it a Hard? Is it a Insane? It's better to use something like "Light Insane" because it explains the difficulty better. I think it was Loctav back then who wanted to have it removed so we just stick to it. But it really changed to the better with not having it there anymore.
Alright, that's all for now. We will continue obverse this and reply to feedback as soon as we can. I also will reply to more on a later time!
I gonna partially reply to some points and later to more!
First of all i want to mention that all rules and guidelines use as BPM 180. It seems some have overread this because they bring up different BPM/Songs as argument.
Most of Guidelines which would limit songs too much are exactly for this in Guidelines. We are fully aware that some Guidelines can get broken because a song simply calls for it!
tailsdk wrote:
I feel like the long term SV for expert difficulties could be a bit bigger imo, but i guess its just a guideline so i dont mind it.
First we wanted to make it a wider range, but we realized really fast that going too high/too low is not a good idea.
Let's take a player who plays on 24 Scroll speed, 1.1 would make it 26 over a longer section. This is really a noticeable and even when these two seem to not affect it much, i have to confirm it really does because i play on 24 and really have problems on 26.
However, it is indeed just a guideline because not everyone plays on 24. Some play the game faster/slower. Also a song might call for even more/less so we don't want to limit mapper too much.
UndeadCapulet wrote:
std person here, just popping in to request y'all try to stick to glossary terms being singular instead of plural, for consistency w/ the other sections of the rc. ty~
Thanks! We will look at it as soon the week is over and we going to look over it again!
About using jump trills that lead to a hand:
I saw some brought up as argument older maps and that this was done already for a long time. Please let not start to take old maps as an example because really a lot of bad are far behind the mapping standard we hold up today. In the past random jacks and overall uncomfortable pattern were pretty common.
With this Guideline we want to avoid having pattern like this:
Many people miss on these pattern, and also the unnecessary mini-jack (to see on the screen on column 4) is there for no reason. Minijacks should at least have a reasoning when used, these are just very random placed and cause in an unnecessary difficult "spike". I read that some used emphasize as a argument and i have to contradict this. They emphasize absolute nothing. The hand is there to add a emphasis into the pattern, not the minijack.
However, please take into account that this is a Guideline. Especially on lower BPM such pattern can be nice to play, while they should really be completely avoided on higher BPM.
------------------------------------
Another thing i need to mention is: Please stop taking SR into account for this Ranking Criteria. It is true we used "SR" as a measure of difficulty in the past simply because it was worded like this in the old Ranking Criteria.
With the new Ranking Criteria we want to get rid all of SR-Related Rules and Guidelines (And they will be removed from the General Ranking Criteria as soon this draft is finalized)
A low BPM E/E/N/N spread can be treated as E/N/H/I, only by used pattern.
The meaning behind the difficult-specific Rules and Guidelines is to set a line when does a Normal count as Normal, when does a Hard count as Hard etc.
Shoegazer wrote:
For instance, there was a discussion on whether dump charting/mapping should be permitted, but there are several rules that go against this (e.g. the general LN length guideline and how each note must correlate to specific sounds). I'm personally ambivalent on the idea of allowing dumps, but I know that a fair section of the community is quite accepting of dump charting.
Yes, i know. Dumps were a topic like a half year ago, and it's really not completely gone. We simply reached a dead end in the discussion that's why we put it on ice for now to push at least the normal Ranking Criteria. (will reply to more of your points later!)
Kuo Kyoka wrote:
I remember there was once time people using the "+" term for diffname too in the same case and ended up have to DQ to remove that because obliviously it only have one diff on the same icon.
We removed the "+" now already some years ago. But the reasoning was not because of some diff icon or anything else. "+" is just an extremly bad way to call a diff. What does it mean? What is a "Hard+"? Is it a Hard? Is it a Insane? It's better to use something like "Light Insane" because it explains the difficulty better. I think it was Loctav back then who wanted to have it removed so we just stick to it. But it really changed to the better with not having it there anymore.
Alright, that's all for now. We will continue obverse this and reply to feedback as soon as we can. I also will reply to more on a later time!
Boi this thread is discussing jumptrill too much
Yea 4K maps mostly barred within I Icon due to the fact that SR only counts density of the notes. But at least they denote the difficulty as "Extra" "Expert" etc. even though they are I Icon, which is the most important thing on determining what difficulty it is (Even my Expert are I icon, Insane are H icon, Hard are also H icon so this thing should work for the diffname instead of the icon). As far as I can see, most 4K maps fell to this category with Insane and Expert both rated as I Icon. And I think this rules/guidelines works to the difficulty name instead of the difficulty icons so "Expert"/"Extra" should abide to the "Expert" rules/guideline, "Insane" following the one for "Insane", etc.
So I think it doesn't need to be specific for which kind of Insane, and just let your workflow justify the pattern. But again, this is only a guideline which can be broken at any time.
This is kind of rant so do not comment on this, okay? Good.
Yea, people didn't complain about it much because they already used to it. Not that this is a bad practice, but at least do things differently and don't do the same, exact, pattern, again, and again, on, every, maps, ffs.
Kawawa wrote:
And about the jump between the trills is, It may be very uncomfortable according to the bpm, so It is necessary to know whether the chart has reached reasonably about that. but the jump at the end is actually works as an extra-code for the last part for highlight.
so yeah, communities are using it frequently but nevertheless no complaints. because they are mostly analogous in the way to reaching freedom of the pattern choices and reasonable points. so as I said, so for apply the guidelines reasonably It would be great when the mapsets have the two insane diff(so for lower insane diff). 4K is actually limited to songs that can reach 'EX' icon. so most of their last level are mapped to Insane diff. so It's frequently see the 4k sets have 2-3 Insane spread.
Yea 4K maps mostly barred within I Icon due to the fact that SR only counts density of the notes. But at least they denote the difficulty as "Extra" "Expert" etc. even though they are I Icon, which is the most important thing on determining what difficulty it is (Even my Expert are I icon, Insane are H icon, Hard are also H icon so this thing should work for the diffname instead of the icon). As far as I can see, most 4K maps fell to this category with Insane and Expert both rated as I Icon. And I think this rules/guidelines works to the difficulty name instead of the difficulty icons so "Expert"/"Extra" should abide to the "Expert" rules/guideline, "Insane" following the one for "Insane", etc.
So I think it doesn't need to be specific for which kind of Insane, and just let your workflow justify the pattern. But again, this is only a guideline which can be broken at any time.
This is kind of rant so do not comment on this, okay? Good.
Yea, people didn't complain about it much because they already used to it. Not that this is a bad practice, but at least do things differently and don't do the same, exact, pattern, again, and again, on, every, maps, ffs.
Also I think a musically appropriate dump should be fine since some simplification of a pattern like 1/8 to 1/6 doesn't really make sense either
Slider Velocity to alter the scrolling speed (not to normalize them) for all difficulties should be in guidelines, not rules. (this should apply even to Easy diff.)
As we know, the difficulty of players transitioning from easier difficulty to harder difficulty is the existence of what we call "Slider Velocity" or speed gimmicks. It would also increases the amount of possiblities can be made in a map.
However, the intensity of the Slider Velocity must be less dense for easier difficulty.
For example, you don't put random warp gimmicks/hard stutters to easier difficulty, unless it's very appropiate.
This is, also need to consider the key amount, so the intensity of Slider Velocity gimmicks should be linear to Star Rating and key amount.
Just my two cents.
As we know, the difficulty of players transitioning from easier difficulty to harder difficulty is the existence of what we call "Slider Velocity" or speed gimmicks. It would also increases the amount of possiblities can be made in a map.
However, the intensity of the Slider Velocity must be less dense for easier difficulty.
For example, you don't put random warp gimmicks/hard stutters to easier difficulty, unless it's very appropiate.
This is, also need to consider the key amount, so the intensity of Slider Velocity gimmicks should be linear to Star Rating and key amount.
Just my two cents.
Since this is not following SR, this raises a question. There isn't anything in the proposed ranking criteria that establishes what makes easy easier than normal, what makes normal is easier than hard, and so on. The proposed currently acts as categorical checklists will a lot of room for overlap. What prevents mappers from labeling the difficulties arbitrarily and passing them off while technically satisfying the criteria for the difficulty labeled?Feerum wrote:
Another thing i need to mention is: Please stop taking SR into account for this Ranking Criteria. It is true we used "SR" as a measure of difficulty in the past simply because it was worded like this in the old Ranking Criteria.
With the new Ranking Criteria we want to get rid all of SR-Related Rules and Guidelines (And they will be removed from the General Ranking Criteria as soon this draft is finalized)
A low BPM E/E/N/N spread can be treated as E/N/H/I, only by used pattern.
The meaning behind the difficult-specific Rules and Guidelines is to set a line when does a Normal count as Normal, when does a Hard count as Hard etc.
abraker wrote:
Since this is not following SR, this raises a question. There isn't anything in the proposed ranking criteria that establishes what makes easy easier than normal, what makes normal is easier than hard, and so on. The proposed currently acts as categorical checklists will a lot of room for overlap. What prevents mappers from labeling the difficulties arbitrarily and passing them off while technically satisfying the criteria for the difficulty labeled?
I believe Easy-Normal-Hard progression is a common sense that need no further breakdown. Patterns used in these diffs are pretty basic. They only need a pattern/rhythmical limitation to shape the structure up.
What needs to be breakdowned is Insane-Expert as these two in execution may intertwined with each other. As defining difficulty may be subjective and each people skillsets are different which makes some people believe the Expert felt easier than Insane.
Expanding on abraker's concerns but with regards to duration based spread rules. If I have a severely underrated 4.8* chart being pushed as a single diff for 4:15, would it be considered an insane or an expert? Where do you draw the line? Should the QAT be consulted with these things? The same could be said for 3:30 H single H diffs that may be underrated. If these said underrated diffs would be subject to QAT rulings, would overrated charts be treated in the same manner?
EDIT: I know I shouldn't be mentioning SR but the point still stands on defining what should set the difference between Hards and Insanes / Insanes and Experts. The purpose is to avoid potentially frustrating DQs over single diff maps over a hidden rule of some sorts.
EDIT: I know I shouldn't be mentioning SR but the point still stands on defining what should set the difference between Hards and Insanes / Insanes and Experts. The purpose is to avoid potentially frustrating DQs over single diff maps over a hidden rule of some sorts.
Concern about ENH progression
Considering patterns and notes density too, it is far more easy to differentiate Easy-Normal-Hard rather than Insane/Expert maps.
MEGAtive wrote:
I believe Easy-Normal-Hard progression is a common sense that need no further breakdown. Patterns used in these diffs are pretty basic. They only need a pattern/rhythmical limitation to shape the structure up.
What needs to be breakdowned is Insane-Expert as these two in execution may intertwined with each other. As defining difficulty may be subjective and each people skillsets are different which makes some people believe the Expert felt easier than Insane.
Considering patterns and notes density too, it is far more easy to differentiate Easy-Normal-Hard rather than Insane/Expert maps.
Lenfried- wrote:
If I have a severely underrated 4.8* chart being pushed as a single diff for 4:15, would it be considered an insane or an expert? Where do you draw the line? Should the QAT be consulted with these things? The same could be said for 3:30 H single H diffs that may be underrated. If these said underrated diffs would be subject to QAT rulings, would overrated charts be treated in the same manner?
In my opinion, it should be consulted with QAT members, or together with community.
The main problem is one: how does one define Insane/Expert?
Explanation
The main difference is the note density and pattern complexity/difficulty. Still the definition of Insane/Expert maps should be discussed further with moderators and experienced players. And, yes, despite the same note count, patterns should be taken look at. However, quoting MEGAtive that every players have different skill sets and experience, one can look a pattern as "slightly hard" while other could look at it as "piece of cake".
One of severe case is "swingy" patterns, which involves "rainbow" snapping (combination between general 1/4~1/16 snap and triplets). I already experimented with some maps, and mostly (in my test) "Star Rating" doesn't always reflect the actual difficulty of a map.
That's why discussing about the difficulty definition in a map is important.
Another example is (as MEGAtive said after discussing privately with me), a 10 notes/sec double trills and double-jacks (or even one-handed jacks) has entirely different difficulty. Though, on slower density, 2 notes/sec double trills and double-jacks has slight (or even no distinguish) difference on difficulty.
From what am I thinking, underrated and overrated charts should be treated evenly; look through the patterns, analyze it, and check playability difficulty. The most concerning problem (I think) is "PP maps".
Avoid using storyboard sampled hitsounds with similar volume to hitsounds on notes
what u want me to do with a kick and crash hs in easy with 1 note? make multiple samepleset to stack them? I usually use W for kick, C for snare, F for close or open hat.
I am against mutiple sampleset:
1. annoying to manage/mod
2. duplicate samples across samplesets (wasted space/bandwidth/ more files to check for BN)
therefore im in favor of SB when usee properly
How about add a rule for hs
If you have used any custom sampleset, you must provide the samples used including hitnormal
since it will default to hs in player skin if absent in song folder, must assure hs consistency regardless of skins
Btw, love the guidelines for Easy diff, 99% of easy diff has hard pattern/density nowdays
Consecutive 1/4 snaps may only be two notes long
why 2?, its so rare
make it 3 at least for snares
can u add a guideline
Enable widescreen doesnt do shit unless u have a SB
what u want me to do with a kick and crash hs in easy with 1 note? make multiple samepleset to stack them? I usually use W for kick, C for snare, F for close or open hat.
I am against mutiple sampleset:
1. annoying to manage/mod
2. duplicate samples across samplesets (wasted space/bandwidth/ more files to check for BN)
therefore im in favor of SB when usee properly
How about add a rule for hs
If you have used any custom sampleset, you must provide the samples used including hitnormal
since it will default to hs in player skin if absent in song folder, must assure hs consistency regardless of skins
Btw, love the guidelines for Easy diff, 99% of easy diff has hard pattern/density nowdays
Consecutive 1/4 snaps may only be two notes long
why 2?, its so rare
make it 3 at least for snares
can u add a guideline
Enable widescreen doesnt do shit unless u have a SB
Quote MEGA
And yea the wording is kind of generalizing all the keymodes here, as higher keymodes tend to have these kind of patterns but not have them minijacked. I think it should be stated that this guideline only considers 4K since it's a pretty common keymode.
So why only 4K have it? I mean that was a relieve when this rule only mention 4K, because Im totally up for 13 57 1357 in 7K because why not?
But I'm saying this as, even it's a guideline and yet you can choose to broke it or not, but having it is already a trouble in the neck, not to mention some songs can allow this kind of it, and yet you can tend to do it correctly based on what you choose to follows it or not.
I didn't say it's an useless guideline, but it's quite unneccessary, I already said what was it supposed to be why it exists and why it should be used.
New comers to Insane difficulty can find it difficult to give it a try at first, but when you are experienced enough as a tap away, it's pretty easy when all you do is pressing the note next to it on the exact timing.
If you said is to avoid abuse, I would rather stating another rule of, do not using 4 notes chord to present snare sounds, usually is on 5/16 and 12/16 while there is a fast yet complicated 1/4 note before/after it, and even in melody logical, it doesn't even the same pitch for having jacks like that and tend to push the difficult so far for challenge. (Example (123) 4 2 3 (1234) 1 3 2 (134) 2 4 1 (1234) 3 4 2 ...) ... which is less common and yet more troublesome than 12 34 124 or 12 34 1234 for an Insane diff
And of course, it's depend on BPM too, I'm quitr surprise after look thought most of it there is no rule mention about BPM, im wondering which BPM we are using the scale of?
And yea the wording is kind of generalizing all the keymodes here, as higher keymodes tend to have these kind of patterns but not have them minijacked. I think it should be stated that this guideline only considers 4K since it's a pretty common keymode.
So why only 4K have it? I mean that was a relieve when this rule only mention 4K, because Im totally up for 13 57 1357 in 7K because why not?
But I'm saying this as, even it's a guideline and yet you can choose to broke it or not, but having it is already a trouble in the neck, not to mention some songs can allow this kind of it, and yet you can tend to do it correctly based on what you choose to follows it or not.
I didn't say it's an useless guideline, but it's quite unneccessary, I already said what was it supposed to be why it exists and why it should be used.
New comers to Insane difficulty can find it difficult to give it a try at first, but when you are experienced enough as a tap away, it's pretty easy when all you do is pressing the note next to it on the exact timing.
If you said is to avoid abuse, I would rather stating another rule of, do not using 4 notes chord to present snare sounds, usually is on 5/16 and 12/16 while there is a fast yet complicated 1/4 note before/after it, and even in melody logical, it doesn't even the same pitch for having jacks like that and tend to push the difficult so far for challenge. (Example (123) 4 2 3 (1234) 1 3 2 (134) 2 4 1 (1234) 3 4 2 ...) ... which is less common and yet more troublesome than 12 34 124 or 12 34 1234 for an Insane diff
And of course, it's depend on BPM too, I'm quitr surprise after look thought most of it there is no rule mention about BPM, im wondering which BPM we are using the scale of?
The fact that a lot of the new additions are guidelines make me a lot more comfortable with it since I definitely think that it would be really limiting to mappers otherwise (though I'm not sure how strictly they'll be enforced, honestly I think these should be loosely enforced for the sake of keeping diversity in ranked, only penalizing maps that are obviously trying to take advantage of their spreads in comparison to the music).
It’s been brought up a lot of times already but I feel like the rule involving LNs being simultaneously held should be a guideline, at least in Normal diffs. For instance, if you’re playing a song where 2 notes are being held at the same time at the very end on different hands, and one note is released say, 4/1 after the other one, I don’t think that would be too difficult for players playing normal diffs to execute and making this a rule seems a little too limiting to me, even at a normal difficulty level. (Tbh I think it should be a guideline for easy diffs too but that might be asking for a bit too much)
(refers to the normal difficulty guideline where if a normal diff is the lowest diff in a set, consecutive ¼ snaps can only be 2 notes long): Bumping this because I heavily agree with it, I think this could prove problematic in making normal diffs with occasional ¼ note usage for playability reasons as he stated. The fact that this is a rule is even more concerning to me. I think it should be a guideline at most.since even though most things account for BPM since you're normalizing things to 180, this doesn't and I feel like it's a little excessive, especially in low BPM maps (though if it has to be a rule I think Shoegazer's suggestion is more appropriate, well...it works well if this becomes a guideline too tbh.)
(refers to the hard difficulty guideline where jack usage is discouraged). Bumping this because I agree that clarifying what snap is discouraged would be helpful for mappers, since it isn’t indicated whether 1/3 or ½ jacks are acceptable.
Hopefully I’m not being too pedantic here since Feerum did bring up that low BPM spreads can have their higher diffs “rounded up” in a sense to follow E/N/H/I spreads but I’m assuming that this applies to higher diffs too? For instance if someone had a E/N/H/I/I spread, I think the top diff should be treated as an Extra diff by the RC. (Sorry if this sounds dumb but I just want to make sure). But a few people have brought up that it’s difficult to determine if some diffs are Insane or Extra diffs and I think this would solve that problem.
Lenfried brings up a really good point here, I think single diffs should be taken into account since there isn’t anything in the proposed draft addressing them. That being said I think they should be given more (preferably a lot more) leeway since they don’t fit in a spread to avoid limiting mappers. Since SR isn’t tied to difficulty level and single diffs aren’t tied to spreads, I think intended difficulty level should be left to mapper discretion for single diff maps in order to avoid penalizing underrated maps.
Honestly the “avoid unjustified spikes in difficulty” guideline should apply to every difficulty level imo since it’s possible to make extremely overrated difficulties that aren’t representative of the song’s intensity for any difficulty level, though
This is a really good point that should be addressed as well, and I think density spikes should be differentiated from actual difficulty spikes (for instance if you had a 6-bar long jumptrill/jumptrillable pattern in a diff with mostly easy ½ patterns vs. a 6-bar long non-jumptrillable 1/8 stream in a diff with mostly easy ½ patterns ). Both should be avoided imo for the sake of keeping difficulty level consistent in maps, but I think stating both in the guidelines would be good for clarification.
I would like to talk more about semi-dumps/dumps (specifically how to define a continuous sound and whether its acceptable to map out or not since many genres of music such as drumstep/neuro/neurofunk/dubstep etc. call for it imo) but it’s understandable that it needs to be discussed after a new RC is implemented.
Aaa I think that’s all I have to say for now? Might have to look over this a bit more/see what else has to be said but my post is kinda long anyways so I should probably stop for now lol. In any case I appreciate the hard work you guys put into this and I hope that what I have to say is at least a little helpful!
Edit: one more thing, I feel like the rules/guidelines are a little too 4k-centric as of now (for instance the jumptrill into-hand guideline), I really think things should be revised so that higher keymodes are taken into consideration here.
It’s been brought up a lot of times already but I feel like the rule involving LNs being simultaneously held should be a guideline, at least in Normal diffs. For instance, if you’re playing a song where 2 notes are being held at the same time at the very end on different hands, and one note is released say, 4/1 after the other one, I don’t think that would be too difficult for players playing normal diffs to execute and making this a rule seems a little too limiting to me, even at a normal difficulty level. (Tbh I think it should be a guideline for easy diffs too but that might be asking for a bit too much)
Shoegazer wrote:
This is extremely important (and I'm not sure if this is overlooked), but consecutive 1/4 snaps should be three notes long at least. In a map with mostly 1/2 rhythms, a 1/4 gallop (2 consecutive 1/4s) requires omitting a potential 1/2 note, which would cause timing difficulties (especially for new players) and major issues if you were to layer a certain sound consistently.
(refers to the normal difficulty guideline where if a normal diff is the lowest diff in a set, consecutive ¼ snaps can only be 2 notes long): Bumping this because I heavily agree with it, I think this could prove problematic in making normal diffs with occasional ¼ note usage for playability reasons as he stated. The fact that this is a rule is even more concerning to me. I think it should be a guideline at most.since even though most things account for BPM since you're normalizing things to 180, this doesn't and I feel like it's a little excessive, especially in low BPM maps (though if it has to be a rule I think Shoegazer's suggestion is more appropriate, well...it works well if this becomes a guideline too tbh.)
Shoegazer wrote:
You should specify that you are referring to 1/4 jack usage. 1/2 jacks (90 BPM 1/4s in this example) are usually far more bearable to players who are just approaching Hard difficulties.
(refers to the hard difficulty guideline where jack usage is discouraged). Bumping this because I agree that clarifying what snap is discouraged would be helpful for mappers, since it isn’t indicated whether 1/3 or ½ jacks are acceptable.
Kawawa wrote:
4K is actually limited to songs that can reach 'EX' icon. so most of their last level are mapped to Insane diff. so It's frequently see the 4k sets have 2-3 Insane spread. therefore If it is exist, It can maintain the same way as the past for freedom of the pattern choices and provides a reasonable technique spread between two identical icons.
Hopefully I’m not being too pedantic here since Feerum did bring up that low BPM spreads can have their higher diffs “rounded up” in a sense to follow E/N/H/I spreads but I’m assuming that this applies to higher diffs too? For instance if someone had a E/N/H/I/I spread, I think the top diff should be treated as an Extra diff by the RC. (Sorry if this sounds dumb but I just want to make sure). But a few people have brought up that it’s difficult to determine if some diffs are Insane or Extra diffs and I think this would solve that problem.
Lenfried- wrote:
Expanding on abraker's concerns but with regards to duration based spread rules. If I have a severely underrated 4.8* chart being pushed as a single diff for 4:15, would it be considered an insane or an expert? Where do you draw the line? Should the QAT be consulted with these things? The same could be said for 3:30 H single H diffs that may be underrated. If these said underrated diffs would be subject to QAT rulings, would overrated charts be treated in the same manner?
EDIT: I know I shouldn't be mentioning SR but the point still stands on defining what should set the difference between Hards and Insanes / Insanes and Experts. The purpose is to avoid potentially frustrating DQs over single diff maps over a hidden rule of some sorts.
Lenfried brings up a really good point here, I think single diffs should be taken into account since there isn’t anything in the proposed draft addressing them. That being said I think they should be given more (preferably a lot more) leeway since they don’t fit in a spread to avoid limiting mappers. Since SR isn’t tied to difficulty level and single diffs aren’t tied to spreads, I think intended difficulty level should be left to mapper discretion for single diff maps in order to avoid penalizing underrated maps.
Honestly the “avoid unjustified spikes in difficulty” guideline should apply to every difficulty level imo since it’s possible to make extremely overrated difficulties that aren’t representative of the song’s intensity for any difficulty level, though
Shoegazer wrote:
- "Difficulty spike" needs to be defined further. Are you referring to difficulty spikes in terms of density, or can it refer to difficulty spikes in timing difficulty? Maximally accurate guitar solos are notorious for being very difficult to time for KB play, and they would be considered "spiky" despite not being too much harder than a straight 1/4 or a 1/6 stream.
This is a really good point that should be addressed as well, and I think density spikes should be differentiated from actual difficulty spikes (for instance if you had a 6-bar long jumptrill/jumptrillable pattern in a diff with mostly easy ½ patterns vs. a 6-bar long non-jumptrillable 1/8 stream in a diff with mostly easy ½ patterns ). Both should be avoided imo for the sake of keeping difficulty level consistent in maps, but I think stating both in the guidelines would be good for clarification.
I would like to talk more about semi-dumps/dumps (specifically how to define a continuous sound and whether its acceptable to map out or not since many genres of music such as drumstep/neuro/neurofunk/dubstep etc. call for it imo) but it’s understandable that it needs to be discussed after a new RC is implemented.
Aaa I think that’s all I have to say for now? Might have to look over this a bit more/see what else has to be said but my post is kinda long anyways so I should probably stop for now lol. In any case I appreciate the hard work you guys put into this and I hope that what I have to say is at least a little helpful!
Edit: one more thing, I feel like the rules/guidelines are a little too 4k-centric as of now (for instance the jumptrill into-hand guideline), I really think things should be revised so that higher keymodes are taken into consideration here.
adding up to this quote-MysticEyes wrote:
Edit: one more thing, I feel like the rules/guidelines are a little too 4k-centric as of now (for instance the jumptrill into-hand guideline), I really think things should be revised so that higher keymodes are taken into consideration here.
i mentioned this in the previous thread and ill mention this again. Some terminologies shouldn't be thrown around just because people can and this RC draft is supporting that. Reading a mod that would say something like "a handstream would be nice here" for a 7k chart is just wrong.
might as well jump in the jumptrill convo
guideline has its merits as there are times where long jt->hand patterns are used when the rest of the chart has little to no rigidity which places the pattern at a weird spot of being cheap, bland, and off putting at the same time. This doesn't mean the pattern should be avoided at all costs but they should be used with discretion.
Lenfried- wrote:
i mentioned this in the previous thread and ill mention this again. Some terminologies shouldn't be thrown around just because people can and this RC draft is supporting that. Reading a mod that would say something like "a handstream would be nice here" for a 7k chart is just wrong.
I think the terminologies isn't a big deal. I mean, if it's a handstream, it's a handstream. Although the execution may be totally different. It's just that 7K has more terminologies to offer, but the basic terminologies is the same thoroughout keymodes (stream, (chord)stream, jacks, gallops, etc.)
But I do think the terminology section need to provide the method of constructing a more advanced terminology such as adding the type of the chord used in a stream as a prefix. And maybe provide an image link to the corresponding terminology to give the user more visualization of how the terminology works instead of only providing lexical stuff which at some point more straining to understood.
Providing images for terms is 10/10. will really help newcomers fully understand patterns
^ I second that
DDMythical
this RC tries to awkwardly double up as an introductory charting-guide alongside an objective set of rules for what is rankable or not. in my opinion, it should not cover explicits in its charting guide segements, but rather explain the implicits around charting with regards to overarching techniques that are almost entirely colloquially accepted by the charting community (such as intensity congruency, or sound representation.) As of now, some of the things written in RC are incorrectly advising people on how to chart, and forcing unnecessary restrictions on charts.
most of what is written in this is actively detrimental to newer charters reading it, as it's actively teaching and conveying concepts that simply are not correct - or undermining/ignoring important concepts (notably with regards to difficulty).
this is a repost of https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/719936/start=45 from 4 months ago, i have edited the parts that have been edited in RC.
i might've restated some things other people have stated.
bpm
why is 180bpm picked as the standard for what measures are determined as too difficult for the player at any given level, if anything, pick 150 - it divides much better into certain bpms which are common at certain difficulty levels:
1/4 = 150
1/6 = 200
1/8 = 300
1/12 = 450 (I CANT COUNT LOL)
as opposed to:
1/4 = 180
1/6 = 270
1/8 = 360
1/12 = 540
which are significantly more illogical.
1/4 = 150
1/6 = 200
1/8 = 300
1/12 = 450 (I CANT COUNT LOL)
as opposed to:
1/4 = 180
1/6 = 270
1/8 = 360
1/12 = 540
which are significantly more illogical.
rules and sv
would https://osu.ppy.sh/s/704987 be regarded as an exception to this rule? This should not be a rule; it should be a guideline, and, if that, this presumes a congruency between physical difficulty (what star rating assesses, and determines whether the difficulty is an easy/normal/whatever) and visual/mental difficulty, with regards to svs. There is no major correlation between these two factors. A chart that is harder physically does not mean it is better suited for harsher svs than a chart physically lighter. In fact, it's the complete opposite. Looking at some of the most popular harsh sv charts in the game (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/572000 - Coinage
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/723624 - Back Of The Yards
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/108708 - dEKA
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/591171 - Groundhog
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/415946 - Chloroplast Skin
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/673208 - Cycles)
you can see that most, if not all of them, fall around a low difficulty range relative to the ability necessary to learn the SVs. As such, no explicit rule should be included which dictates congruency between physical ability and SVs, I don't disagree with it being a guideline, but even-so, it's presented in a sense which implies that as your chart is harder physically, it becomes better to use harsher svs, when, in reality, it is the complete converse. this is harmful to new charters.
Slider velocity changes that alter the scrolling speed of the map are disallowed. An exception to this rule would be creating slider velocity changes to unify the scroll speed in BPM-variable maps. Scroll normalization is mandatory and must be done in maps with variable BPM.
would https://osu.ppy.sh/s/704987 be regarded as an exception to this rule? This should not be a rule; it should be a guideline, and, if that, this presumes a congruency between physical difficulty (what star rating assesses, and determines whether the difficulty is an easy/normal/whatever) and visual/mental difficulty, with regards to svs. There is no major correlation between these two factors. A chart that is harder physically does not mean it is better suited for harsher svs than a chart physically lighter. In fact, it's the complete opposite. Looking at some of the most popular harsh sv charts in the game (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/572000 - Coinage
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/723624 - Back Of The Yards
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/108708 - dEKA
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/591171 - Groundhog
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/415946 - Chloroplast Skin
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/673208 - Cycles)
you can see that most, if not all of them, fall around a low difficulty range relative to the ability necessary to learn the SVs. As such, no explicit rule should be included which dictates congruency between physical ability and SVs, I don't disagree with it being a guideline, but even-so, it's presented in a sense which implies that as your chart is harder physically, it becomes better to use harsher svs, when, in reality, it is the complete converse. this is harmful to new charters.
snap guidelines
these are arbitrary and an extremely stupid way to dictate what is expected of players around x skill level. The best way to do this would involve looking at the rough patternical levels at x skill level, and dictating what is regarded as "too difficult" for players at that skill level.
if anything, this should entirely be up to bn discretion for what constitutes as too difficult for a difficulty level, but hey.
what is absurd about this, is that absolutely no time frame (or note frame) is dictated. A 1/6 in isolation is absolutely no harder than a 1/1 in isolation, or a 1/16th in isolation, or a 1/10000 in isolation; context is extremely important with regards to difficulty as, on their own, every note is equal in physical difficulty.
addendum: Consecutive implies that two consecutive 1/6's are too difficult for a given difficulty - two 1/6s on alternate hands will have no additional difficulty -- just like how two consecutive 1/100000000s
also have no additional difficulty. Using snaps to determine what can and can't be done in a chart is arbitrary and restrictive.
What is not accounted here, at all, is patterning. Even if you were to include a time-frame for difficulty (lets say, 10 notes) the difference between a 1/6 10 note 2h trill and a 1/6 10 note 1h trill is huge, and this rule has absolutely no dictation between the two. What you'd need to do for this rule to make any sense, is to gather data on all common patterns, and assess what BPM they are roughly playable by by a player at this skill level.
I would say, above anything, that common sense, and the dictation of the BNG should decide what is playable, roughly, for players at whatever skill level.
There is almost no way to list what is expected from players at any given skill level due to the huge variation in patterning that can be brought. 250bpm jumpstream for just 1 measure can range from, say, 7dan to luminal; WITH NO SPECIFICITY TO PATTERNING, A RULE BASED ON WHAT SPEED IS EXPECTED FROM PLAYERS AT ANY GIVEN SKILL LEVEL IS, AT BEST, A SHOT IN THE DARK.
as such this rule should be removed; no specification on what snaps are or are not okay for players at any given skill level should be given, as, if anything, it would be almost entirely incorrect as it doesn't account for technical or physical difficulty. it is an arbitrary number - is 1/4 dense chordjacking okay when 1/6 streams are not? I believe almost everyone able to competently play would agree that a 1/6 stream is significantly easier than 1/4 dense chordjacking at the same bpm, yet this guideline dictates that the former is harder than the latter.
So, what should be done instead? Note that it is near-impossible (if not) to truly dictate what is capable by players at a given difficulty level. Even moreso, when the element dicating what is in which skill level is SR, which is absurdly flawed, and should not even be used as a metric for determining anything.
I suggest that, instead of providing objectivity in what BPM is playable, or not playable, by players at a given level (even with regards to patterns), you should explain the difficulty of patterning in the RC; explain concepts such as the difficulty of jacks, as they increase in length, they do not increase linearly but instead exponentially, and as such it should be understood that a chart utilising 2 note long jacks (minijacks) should not suddenly change into 3, or 4 note long jacks, as these are significantly more difficult, despite not being much of a change in patterning. Conveying this to charters reading RC will provide (atleast to some extent) a more competent understanding of the structure of patterning in comparison to other patterns at the same BPM.
Furthermore, explaining that 1H trills are more difficult than 2H trills, because 1H trilling increases in difficulty much faster than 2H trills (300bpm 2H trills are doable by most players at 9/10dan level; 300bpm 1H trills are beyond the peak of any top-tier player for any sustained period of time.) Would be significantly more useful than what is provided now. Then, a rough bpm (WITH LENIENCY) can be provided for each pattern, and then atleast, to some extent, a difficulty level acceptable for each difficulty can be determined.
As example:
Hard (As hard constitutes for 1st dan->4th dan)
Streams should be between 180bpm-230bpm, taking the length of a measure as baseline. Leniency should then be taken dependant on the length of the stream, longer streams increase the difficulty in stamina, so they should be slower for the same difficulty to apply (a 250 stream extended for a longer period of time would stretch into low/mid-insane) and vice versa. The same leniency should be applied to the technicality of patterns, the more technically challenging a pattern is, the slower it needs to be to exert the same overall difficulty, and vice versa. This leniency should be entirely down to the judgement of the bng.
With this; a basic understanding of difficulty can be presented in the RC.
(if you'd like more numbers for this, i can work them out roughly over the week, but you need to understand that SR is completely unusable to calculate the difficulty of patterns, and that hard-level chordjacks may rate a chart as insane, and extra-level longjacks may rate a chart as hard.)
if anything, this should entirely be up to bn discretion for what constitutes as too difficult for a difficulty level, but hey.
Note snappings of consecutive 1/6 and above should not be used. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game.
addendum: Consecutive implies that two consecutive 1/6's are too difficult for a given difficulty - two 1/6s on alternate hands will have no additional difficulty -- just like how two consecutive 1/100000000s
also have no additional difficulty. Using snaps to determine what can and can't be done in a chart is arbitrary and restrictive.
What is not accounted here, at all, is patterning. Even if you were to include a time-frame for difficulty (lets say, 10 notes) the difference between a 1/6 10 note 2h trill and a 1/6 10 note 1h trill is huge, and this rule has absolutely no dictation between the two. What you'd need to do for this rule to make any sense, is to gather data on all common patterns, and assess what BPM they are roughly playable by by a player at this skill level.
I would say, above anything, that common sense, and the dictation of the BNG should decide what is playable, roughly, for players at whatever skill level.
There is almost no way to list what is expected from players at any given skill level due to the huge variation in patterning that can be brought. 250bpm jumpstream for just 1 measure can range from, say, 7dan to luminal; WITH NO SPECIFICITY TO PATTERNING, A RULE BASED ON WHAT SPEED IS EXPECTED FROM PLAYERS AT ANY GIVEN SKILL LEVEL IS, AT BEST, A SHOT IN THE DARK.
as such this rule should be removed; no specification on what snaps are or are not okay for players at any given skill level should be given, as, if anything, it would be almost entirely incorrect as it doesn't account for technical or physical difficulty. it is an arbitrary number - is 1/4 dense chordjacking okay when 1/6 streams are not? I believe almost everyone able to competently play would agree that a 1/6 stream is significantly easier than 1/4 dense chordjacking at the same bpm, yet this guideline dictates that the former is harder than the latter.
So, what should be done instead? Note that it is near-impossible (if not) to truly dictate what is capable by players at a given difficulty level. Even moreso, when the element dicating what is in which skill level is SR, which is absurdly flawed, and should not even be used as a metric for determining anything.
I suggest that, instead of providing objectivity in what BPM is playable, or not playable, by players at a given level (even with regards to patterns), you should explain the difficulty of patterning in the RC; explain concepts such as the difficulty of jacks, as they increase in length, they do not increase linearly but instead exponentially, and as such it should be understood that a chart utilising 2 note long jacks (minijacks) should not suddenly change into 3, or 4 note long jacks, as these are significantly more difficult, despite not being much of a change in patterning. Conveying this to charters reading RC will provide (atleast to some extent) a more competent understanding of the structure of patterning in comparison to other patterns at the same BPM.
Furthermore, explaining that 1H trills are more difficult than 2H trills, because 1H trilling increases in difficulty much faster than 2H trills (300bpm 2H trills are doable by most players at 9/10dan level; 300bpm 1H trills are beyond the peak of any top-tier player for any sustained period of time.) Would be significantly more useful than what is provided now. Then, a rough bpm (WITH LENIENCY) can be provided for each pattern, and then atleast, to some extent, a difficulty level acceptable for each difficulty can be determined.
As example:
Hard (As hard constitutes for 1st dan->4th dan)
Streams should be between 180bpm-230bpm, taking the length of a measure as baseline. Leniency should then be taken dependant on the length of the stream, longer streams increase the difficulty in stamina, so they should be slower for the same difficulty to apply (a 250 stream extended for a longer period of time would stretch into low/mid-insane) and vice versa. The same leniency should be applied to the technicality of patterns, the more technically challenging a pattern is, the slower it needs to be to exert the same overall difficulty, and vice versa. This leniency should be entirely down to the judgement of the bng.
With this; a basic understanding of difficulty can be presented in the RC.
(if you'd like more numbers for this, i can work them out roughly over the week, but you need to understand that SR is completely unusable to calculate the difficulty of patterns, and that hard-level chordjacks may rate a chart as insane, and extra-level longjacks may rate a chart as hard.)
long term
I also vehemently disagree with the nature of this rule - the numbers selected for these (0.90/1.05 for normal; 0.75/1.10 for hard; 0.5/1.10 for insane and extra) are completely arbitrary and make almost no consistent sense. Considering the gimmicky nature of SV usage and how it applies over other skillsets, to limit long-standing sv usage which may be contextually acceptable with the concept of the chart is absolutely absurd in my opinion. Like I say above, this takes the physical difficulty of a chart and compares it to the difficulty of the SVs - there are plenty of difficult SV charts that are not physically demanding; the physical aspects of a chart as assessed by SR should have absolutely nothing to do with what SVs are acceptable in your chart, ironically enough, as the physical difficulty of your chart increases. If anything, your SVs should get less effective on the song so as not to overwhelm the player or obscure other concepts at play - but this is tangential.
Long term slider velocity changes should be in between 0.??x and 1.??x.
I also vehemently disagree with the nature of this rule - the numbers selected for these (0.90/1.05 for normal; 0.75/1.10 for hard; 0.5/1.10 for insane and extra) are completely arbitrary and make almost no consistent sense. Considering the gimmicky nature of SV usage and how it applies over other skillsets, to limit long-standing sv usage which may be contextually acceptable with the concept of the chart is absolutely absurd in my opinion. Like I say above, this takes the physical difficulty of a chart and compares it to the difficulty of the SVs - there are plenty of difficult SV charts that are not physically demanding; the physical aspects of a chart as assessed by SR should have absolutely nothing to do with what SVs are acceptable in your chart, ironically enough, as the physical difficulty of your chart increases. If anything, your SVs should get less effective on the song so as not to overwhelm the player or obscure other concepts at play - but this is tangential.
complex
Inverse patterns must not be used. They are a very advanced type of pattern and that they require a lot of coordination to properly execute it.
the lack of explanation with regards to what constitutes an "advanced pattern" is painful here. What it should refer to, is to the technicality of a pattern - inverse patterns are technically complex, and, as such, are a higher difficulty than most patterns at the same bpm. This goes for OHTrills, polyrhythms, etc. which are technical. Why this rule is only presented in hard is beyond me, as, logically, it should apply to normal and easy inherently anyway but w/e.
Inverse patterns are also not the only type of "advanced pattern"; all it's specifying is that this pattern is more difficult than other patterns at the same bpm. as such, 50bpm inverse in a 200bpm stream chart is perfectly okay, because it is *that* much slower, the added technicality does not create an unfair difficulty spike. This rule is simply incorrectly labelling technical patterns and not accounting for difficulty properly.
this rule was removed
Inverse patterns are also not the only type of "advanced pattern"; all it's specifying is that this pattern is more difficult than other patterns at the same bpm. as such, 50bpm inverse in a 200bpm stream chart is perfectly okay, because it is *that* much slower, the added technicality does not create an unfair difficulty spike. This rule is simply incorrectly labelling technical patterns and not accounting for difficulty properly.
this rule was removed
most of what is written in this is actively detrimental to newer charters reading it, as it's actively teaching and conveying concepts that simply are not correct - or undermining/ignoring important concepts (notably with regards to difficulty).
this is a repost of https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/719936/start=45 from 4 months ago, i have edited the parts that have been edited in RC.
i might've restated some things other people have stated.
Bro, you got the wrong point here. I believe it is "RC" and yet you give example on "Loved" state which "we made map based on creativity / anything"
I don't know if i should post this, i think BN / QAT should checked a map more carefully when qualify something.
I'm cool with upcoming RC guidelines.
DDMythical wrote:
rules and svSlider velocity changes that alter the scrolling speed of the map are disallowed. An exception to this rule would be creating slider velocity changes to unify the scroll speed in BPM-variable maps. Scroll normalization is mandatory and must be done in maps with variable BPM.
would https://osu.ppy.sh/s/704987 be regarded as an exception to this rule? This should not be a rule; it should be a guideline, and, if that, this presumes a congruency between physical difficulty (what star rating assesses, and determines whether the difficulty is an easy/normal/whatever) and visual/mental difficulty, with regards to svs. There is no major correlation between these two factors. A chart that is harder physically does not mean it is better suited for harsher svs than a chart physically lighter. In fact, it's the complete opposite. Looking at some of the most popular harsh sv charts in the game (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/572000 - Coinage
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/723624 - Back Of The Yards
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/108708 - dEKA
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/591171 - Groundhog
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/415946 - Chloroplast Skin
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/673208 - Cycles)
you can see that most, if not all of them, fall around a low difficulty range relative to the ability necessary to learn the SVs. As such, no explicit rule should be included which dictates congruency between physical ability and SVs, I don't disagree with it being a guideline, but even-so, it's presented in a sense which implies that as your chart is harder physically, it becomes better to use harsher svs, when, in reality, it is the complete converse. this is harmful to new charters.
I don't know if i should post this, i think BN / QAT should checked a map more carefully when qualify something.
I'm cool with upcoming RC guidelines.
Misc mistake places
Timing
I believe this guideline is from the past
"Also you need to add SV changes to your map when your song has multiple BPM changes. As an example: If your song has a BPM change from 150 to 200, the scroll speed of your notes will also get higher! To prevent this, we need to add an SV point at the BPM change to adjust the scroll speed to the average BPM."
I found some map were "breaking the guidelines" like Timing, hitsounding, offsets / BPM / snapping.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/189643 - dreamin' feat.Ryu☆ [2nd Kiai place as x1.05] (2014) (INFINITE)
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/113175 - Phantasmagoria (not quite same, yet similiar) [1st BPM place as half or 2nd BPM as double or reversed, idk which one] (2013) [All diff]
Hitsounding
I'm certainly sure hitsound consistency is brought up by Protastic101 before his map got ranked Camellia - Exit This Earth's Atomosphere
Yet i found inconsistent hs on jioyi - cyanine Rivals_7's map [Ultimate] is like this
at 03:02:161 (182161|3) -
and hs vol conflict between [Another] & the rest of those diff (at some part)i can't tell where it is, i lost my data 
Snapping
There is 1 song has weird snapping (currently on pas ranked map) Mitsuyoshi Takenobu no Ani - Amphisbaena (i think this one is fine because minor problem, but i just pointed it out, so upcoming weird snap on other song would not be like this again)
Both ranked are using same pattern on 1 part (00:26:681 - which are late on vocal offsets, applies on 02:05:275 - too)
BPM / Offsets
Actually this is 1 of other big mistake on ranked map. Why do i say this? Because it has really early offset than precise location?
The song is Team Grimoire - Sheriruth. Try take a deep observation & listen carefully at 25% & 1/16 snapping from the whole diff / early (regardless of what diff they are, those are same). Still didn't believe it? try at 00:44:345 - and go 1/16 further & listen at 25%
I believe this guideline is from the past
"Also you need to add SV changes to your map when your song has multiple BPM changes. As an example: If your song has a BPM change from 150 to 200, the scroll speed of your notes will also get higher! To prevent this, we need to add an SV point at the BPM change to adjust the scroll speed to the average BPM."
I found some map were "breaking the guidelines" like Timing, hitsounding, offsets / BPM / snapping.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/189643 - dreamin' feat.Ryu☆ [2nd Kiai place as x1.05] (2014) (INFINITE)
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/113175 - Phantasmagoria (not quite same, yet similiar) [1st BPM place as half or 2nd BPM as double or reversed, idk which one] (2013) [All diff]
Hitsounding
I'm certainly sure hitsound consistency is brought up by Protastic101 before his map got ranked Camellia - Exit This Earth's Atomosphere
Yet i found inconsistent hs on jioyi - cyanine Rivals_7's map [Ultimate] is like this
and hs vol conflict between [Another] & the rest of those diff (at some part)
Snapping
There is 1 song has weird snapping (currently on pas ranked map) Mitsuyoshi Takenobu no Ani - Amphisbaena (i think this one is fine because minor problem, but i just pointed it out, so upcoming weird snap on other song would not be like this again)
Both ranked are using same pattern on 1 part (00:26:681 - which are late on vocal offsets, applies on 02:05:275 - too)
BPM / Offsets
Actually this is 1 of other big mistake on ranked map. Why do i say this? Because it has really early offset than precise location?
The song is Team Grimoire - Sheriruth. Try take a deep observation & listen carefully at 25% & 1/16 snapping from the whole diff / early (regardless of what diff they are, those are same). Still didn't believe it? try at 00:44:345 - and go 1/16 further & listen at 25%
BPM
Seconding this.
DDMythical wrote:
why is 180bpm picked as the standard for what measures are determined as too difficult for the player at any given level, if anything, pick 150 - it divides much better into certain bpms which are common at certain difficulty levels:
1/4 = 150
1/6 = 200
1/8 = 300
1/12 = 400
as opposed to:
1/4 = 180
1/6 = 270
1/8 = 360
1/12 = 540
which are significantly more illogical.
Seconding this.
Someone pointed an old map
Uh, you do realize you are using a 2013/2014 era maps where ranking criteria are still being constructed from the ground right? This rules/guidelines is written to guide upcoming maps, not to adapt its way with a 5-year old maps.
And 1.05x isn't a big deal. You can still see the notes traversing vertically.
Noch Einen wrote:
I found some map were "breaking the guidelines" like Timing, hitsounding, offsets / BPM / snapping.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/189643 - dreamin' feat.Ryu☆ [2nd Kiai place as x1.05] (2014) (INFINITE)
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/113175 - Phantasmagoria (not quite same, yet similiar) [1st BPM place as half or 2nd BPM as double or reversed, idk which one] (2013) [All diff]
Uh, you do realize you are using a 2013/2014 era maps where ranking criteria are still being constructed from the ground right? This rules/guidelines is written to guide upcoming maps, not to adapt its way with a 5-year old maps.
And 1.05x isn't a big deal. You can still see the notes traversing vertically.
Noch Einen wrote:
Hitsounding
I'm certainly sure hitsound consistency is brought up by Protastic101 before his map got ranked Camellia - Exit This Earth's Atomosphere
Yet i found inconsistent hs on jioyi - cyanine Rivals_7's map [Ultimate] is like this
and hs vol conflict between [Another] & the rest of those diff (at some part)i can't tell where it is, i lost my data
Snapping
There is 1 song has weird snapping (currently on pas ranked map) Mitsuyoshi Takenobu no Ani - Amphisbaena (i think this one is fine because minor problem, but i just pointed it out, so upcoming weird snap on other song would not be like this again)
Both ranked are using same pattern on 1 part (00:26:681 - which are late on vocal offsets, applies on 02:05:275 - too)
BPM / Offsets
Actually this is 1 of other big mistake on ranked map. Why do i say this? Because it has really early offset than precise location?
The song is Team Grimoire - Sheriruth. Try take a deep observation & listen carefully at 25% & 1/16 snapping from the whole diff / early (regardless of what diff they are, those are same). Still didn't believe it? try at 00:44:345 - and go 1/16 further & listen at 25%
Also this is a thread for discussing the upcoming ranking rules/guidelines, not a thread for discussing the times where Nominators weren't paying attention, missed something or two back then and should DQ or Derank stuff. It is already in the past, and this is discussing the future of osu!mania ranking scene rules/guide.
Seconding DD's notion that the reference bpm works better at 150
At this point ill assume my memory of the proposed RC is correct. Im on mobile and it's not worth the effort to open the document.
As the mapper of lesson by dj, the set does not break the rule. The BASIC diff exists to fill in the "Easy" diff of the spread. Challenge is the secondary and top diff of the spread which gives it all the creative freedom with sv usages. The only limitation is that it cannot be a Hard diff or harder (snap + pattern rule/guidelines considered). Note that the easy rule/guideline section pertains to an intended Easy diff in the spread and not necessarily every single E icon map.
If anything, i think single diff E icon sv challenge can be ranked with the duration based spread rules in place. Else, a filler NSV note reduced diff will need to be added. Confirmation needed.
If the diff next to the filler easy would be subject to Normal's sv rules, that would stink a lot.
At this point ill assume my memory of the proposed RC is correct. Im on mobile and it's not worth the effort to open the document.
As the mapper of lesson by dj, the set does not break the rule. The BASIC diff exists to fill in the "Easy" diff of the spread. Challenge is the secondary and top diff of the spread which gives it all the creative freedom with sv usages. The only limitation is that it cannot be a Hard diff or harder (snap + pattern rule/guidelines considered). Note that the easy rule/guideline section pertains to an intended Easy diff in the spread and not necessarily every single E icon map.
If anything, i think single diff E icon sv challenge can be ranked with the duration based spread rules in place. Else, a filler NSV note reduced diff will need to be added. Confirmation needed.
If the diff next to the filler easy would be subject to Normal's sv rules, that would stink a lot.
Thank you for all the feedback guys! we will sort all the problems that being pointed out and tried to come out with alternative solution that will be implemented in the next RC draft round of community feedback. For now will lock the thread.
So, we are back with another update for mania RC!
The new update can be seen here for everyone : https://gist.github.com/pishifat/3983da22af830b120bf566addf1425ae
For most part, we already revise some of the guidelines based on the community feedback, but some of them we keep based on the full consideration of the difficulty level for the mentioned difficulties. (In case there's something that we missing, it may be mentioned again)
Also, we add some of the rules on our own that we think are necessary to be implemented in the RC. The most notable changes are the separate guidelines for both 4K and 7K that need further discussion from community input.
We'll leave this open for 1 week to gather community feedback before we locked this thread again.
The new update can be seen here for everyone : https://gist.github.com/pishifat/3983da22af830b120bf566addf1425ae
For most part, we already revise some of the guidelines based on the community feedback, but some of them we keep based on the full consideration of the difficulty level for the mentioned difficulties. (In case there's something that we missing, it may be mentioned again)
Also, we add some of the rules on our own that we think are necessary to be implemented in the RC. The most notable changes are the separate guidelines for both 4K and 7K that need further discussion from community input.
We'll leave this open for 1 week to gather community feedback before we locked this thread again.
Two notes cannot be placed in a single column at the same timestampWhich makes me wonder: Should 1ms jacks be rankable? 10ms?
Every note should correlate to a sound present in the music. This should be a distinct sound, but can also coherently represent a continuous sound with an indistinguishable start or end.Might be picky on the wording, but it feels like this is saying only one note can be allocated for each "sound". "Sound" ofc is rather abstract, but it's easy to misinterpret that to be notes in the actual music as well. So if you have a wub, for example, it would be easy to misinterpret, accidentally or otherwise, that you can't have a burst of notes representing that, and instead need to use a single LN instead. I suggest using "noise" instead of "sound" since it relates more to how something actually sounds instead of the objectified concept of some kind of sound.
Overall, great improvement!
at first glance common terms looks badly organized especially with the SV stuff
the definition for Grace can be misinterpreted to something jacky, might wanna clarify
actually that whole section needs a cleanup too
the second bullet point for rules as abraker pointed out should mention what aimod says is allowed (iirc, 20ms?)
the definition for Grace can be misinterpreted to something jacky, might wanna clarify
actually that whole section needs a cleanup too
the second bullet point for rules as abraker pointed out should mention what aimod says is allowed (iirc, 20ms?)
I dont think there's a great need to mention on what limits is there on spacing between two jacking notes. Community feedback and modding will weed out fringe cases like these. I doubt anyone tried to rank a map with a 1ms jack let alone a 1/16 jack.
What constitutes a distinct sound is a good point to talk about as it gives way to arguments on what's chartable or not. This goes for noise elements like static or wubs. I'm inclined to believe that degree of dumping would be allowable due to this clause:
"would be effectively represented with a consistent, predictable snap"
with that said, i still believe this guideline is unnecessary:
"Long notes should not have release timings that use different timing snaps. For example, long note releases should not have a 1/3 snap on the end of it and a 1/4 snap at the end of another. However, long note releases that are used with common multiples can be used."
I doubt newbie mappers would really try to do this and just simplify and that leaves the more experienced mappers that intentionally follow certain snappings not to mention fringe cases for sound durations. With o2 style lning (ln overextentions and quick presses of varying lengths) permissible i really dont see the need for this.
"Rhythm related guidelines apply to approximately 180 BPM maps." Try to make a poll on this. I still strongly believe 150 BPM should be the standard as it enforces the guidelines better particularly E/N diffs for a greater scope of music.
Normal Rule: "A long note cannot be released during another long note’s body. This requires a level of finger independence that players of this difficulty cannot handle."
While a perfectly sensible rule for faster music, this eliminates potentially very fitting patterns for calmer music. It enforces the idea, for example, that holding a 4/1 LN at 1 and hitting a 1/2 LN at 4 is "too difficult" for a player to handle. Take it from me i have the tendency to suggest general nerfs to a couple of Normals i mod. What i agree with though is that releases cannot happen on the same physical hand (not to be confused with 3-not hand) where say if an LN is held at col 1, and an LN is held at col 2, releasing at col 2 while holding col 1 can be prohibited. Separate hand releases demand much less coordination.
That being said, the existence of the normal rule makes this 7k rule unnecessary:
"Long notes played with adjacent keys that are held simultaneously should be released at the same time. Long notes with multiple release timings require coordination that players of this level cannot reasonably handle."
If normal is the lowest diff rule: I'm inclined to think thay the forced normalization rule should be out as something as tame as a 0.9 slowjam is transistion material to stronger values. That being said the 0.9 to 1.05x sv rule should be the rule in place relative to their normalized values.
Everything else looks sensible. While i still disagree with the existence of other guidelines, removing them is not as necessary as the LN snap thing
What constitutes a distinct sound is a good point to talk about as it gives way to arguments on what's chartable or not. This goes for noise elements like static or wubs. I'm inclined to believe that degree of dumping would be allowable due to this clause:
"would be effectively represented with a consistent, predictable snap"
with that said, i still believe this guideline is unnecessary:
"Long notes should not have release timings that use different timing snaps. For example, long note releases should not have a 1/3 snap on the end of it and a 1/4 snap at the end of another. However, long note releases that are used with common multiples can be used."
I doubt newbie mappers would really try to do this and just simplify and that leaves the more experienced mappers that intentionally follow certain snappings not to mention fringe cases for sound durations. With o2 style lning (ln overextentions and quick presses of varying lengths) permissible i really dont see the need for this.
"Rhythm related guidelines apply to approximately 180 BPM maps." Try to make a poll on this. I still strongly believe 150 BPM should be the standard as it enforces the guidelines better particularly E/N diffs for a greater scope of music.
Normal Rule: "A long note cannot be released during another long note’s body. This requires a level of finger independence that players of this difficulty cannot handle."
While a perfectly sensible rule for faster music, this eliminates potentially very fitting patterns for calmer music. It enforces the idea, for example, that holding a 4/1 LN at 1 and hitting a 1/2 LN at 4 is "too difficult" for a player to handle. Take it from me i have the tendency to suggest general nerfs to a couple of Normals i mod. What i agree with though is that releases cannot happen on the same physical hand (not to be confused with 3-not hand) where say if an LN is held at col 1, and an LN is held at col 2, releasing at col 2 while holding col 1 can be prohibited. Separate hand releases demand much less coordination.
That being said, the existence of the normal rule makes this 7k rule unnecessary:
"Long notes played with adjacent keys that are held simultaneously should be released at the same time. Long notes with multiple release timings require coordination that players of this level cannot reasonably handle."
If normal is the lowest diff rule: I'm inclined to think thay the forced normalization rule should be out as something as tame as a 0.9 slowjam is transistion material to stronger values. That being said the 0.9 to 1.05x sv rule should be the rule in place relative to their normalized values.
Everything else looks sensible. While i still disagree with the existence of other guidelines, removing them is not as necessary as the LN snap thing
Thank you for the feedback so far!
I will respond to some of the questions that probably already been addressed before but haven't got any clarification yet.
The notion of 1ms or 10ms are equal to something that's even faster than 1/16 snap, which is calculated as unsnap which therefore are unrankable.
Even for the sake's of argument let's say it's possible to snap 1ms or 10ms accurately, the question pretty much can be asked to any other game modes on "do snapping note 1ms differences are rankable?" which as lenfried said, will be more based on modding and community feedback that will pretty much impossible to be allowed.
That sentences refers more about simplification snap rather than about dump mapping, which already been stated in the draft before.
The dump discussion already been held before, however due to non-conclusion discussion that already going for multiple years, we decided to drop the topic and focus on amended the RC as of now.
This rule supposed to be deleted long time ago, but it somehow appeared again in the draft, will delete it soon.
After some discussion, we decided to keep the BPM as 180, we have multiple reasons for this choices:
1. Every other modes using 180 BPM as their baseline, having only mania modes alone that using different BPM only causing confusion between newcomers as there is no particular reason for using different one to begin with.
2. Most mania song falls more comfortably at 180 BPM instead of 150 BPM which is relatively slow-ish for mania especially in 4K where most of classic rythm game song also using BPM around that range. having 180 BPM will be more beneficial to adapt especially for mania game where the mapping of instrument song are more common compared with other modes.
3. There's a wiki page that already told community how to scaling BPM using 180 BPM as the base: https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Ranking_Criteria/osu!/Scaling_BPM , so it won't be confusing anymore if people just read this page.
What we mean by this rule, is something like this actually: https://puu.sh/CBYbw/bce1e0de81.jpg , the rule was made based on consideration that it's overcomplicating difficulty specifically made for newbie player no matter what the combination possible from those kind of LNs.
and we do aware that the wording might be a bit ambiguous at the moment, so any feedback about proper wording that specifically talking about those kind of LNs will be appreciated.
I will respond to some of the questions that probably already been addressed before but haven't got any clarification yet.
abraker wrote:
Two notes cannot be placed in a single column at the same timestamp
Which makes me wonder: Should 1ms jacks be rankable? 10ms?
The notion of 1ms or 10ms are equal to something that's even faster than 1/16 snap, which is calculated as unsnap which therefore are unrankable.
Even for the sake's of argument let's say it's possible to snap 1ms or 10ms accurately, the question pretty much can be asked to any other game modes on "do snapping note 1ms differences are rankable?" which as lenfried said, will be more based on modding and community feedback that will pretty much impossible to be allowed.
Lenfried- wrote:
What constitutes a distinct sound is a good point to talk about as it gives way to arguments on what's chartable or not. This goes for noise elements like static or wubs. I'm inclined to believe that degree of dumping would be allowable due to this clause:
"would be effectively represented with a consistent, predictable snap"
That sentences refers more about simplification snap rather than about dump mapping, which already been stated in the draft before.
The dump discussion already been held before, however due to non-conclusion discussion that already going for multiple years, we decided to drop the topic and focus on amended the RC as of now.
Lenfried- wrote:
with that said, i still believe this guideline is unnecessary:
"Long notes should not have release timings that use different timing snaps. For example, long note releases should not have a 1/3 snap on the end of it and a 1/4 snap at the end of another. However, long note releases that are used with common multiples can be used."
This rule supposed to be deleted long time ago, but it somehow appeared again in the draft, will delete it soon.
Lenfried- wrote:
"Rhythm related guidelines apply to approximately 180 BPM maps." Try to make a poll on this. I still strongly believe 150 BPM should be the standard as it enforces the guidelines better particularly E/N diffs for a greater scope of music.
After some discussion, we decided to keep the BPM as 180, we have multiple reasons for this choices:
1. Every other modes using 180 BPM as their baseline, having only mania modes alone that using different BPM only causing confusion between newcomers as there is no particular reason for using different one to begin with.
2. Most mania song falls more comfortably at 180 BPM instead of 150 BPM which is relatively slow-ish for mania especially in 4K where most of classic rythm game song also using BPM around that range. having 180 BPM will be more beneficial to adapt especially for mania game where the mapping of instrument song are more common compared with other modes.
3. There's a wiki page that already told community how to scaling BPM using 180 BPM as the base: https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Ranking_Criteria/osu!/Scaling_BPM , so it won't be confusing anymore if people just read this page.
Lenfried- wrote:
Normal Rule: "A long note cannot be released during another long note’s body. This requires a level of finger independence that players of this difficulty cannot handle."
What we mean by this rule, is something like this actually: https://puu.sh/CBYbw/bce1e0de81.jpg , the rule was made based on consideration that it's overcomplicating difficulty specifically made for newbie player no matter what the combination possible from those kind of LNs.
and we do aware that the wording might be a bit ambiguous at the moment, so any feedback about proper wording that specifically talking about those kind of LNs will be appreciated.
Pattern Terminology Cleanup
Rules
See:
< Website
< Client
Guidelines
Easy
Rules
Normal
Rules
guidelines prob has additional issues but they're guidelines so they can be ignored weeeee
performedWhy use this weird term, why not just say "pressed" instead, performed makes it sound like you have to dance to hit keys
Anchor: A pattern that has a relatively high amount of notes in one column, usually found within different types of streams.Can be confused with jacks, though i personally can't think of a better way to phrase it.
Chordstream (Jumpstream, Handstream, Quadstream): In 5k and higher keymodes, chordstreams are streams that mix different types of chords. In 4k, streams with chords are either called jumpstreams, handstreams, or quadstreams depending on the highest chord type used.This is a fucking mess, split Jumpstream/Handstream/Quadstream into different categories or at least link them to their relative chord density (Jump - 2, Hand - 3) don't leave room for ambiguity.
Reverse ShieldMissed terminology, see https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/discord/523609376385269780-539508237460963363-Osumania_Pattern__Repository.png in fact it might be worth just having this available in the wiki anyway since hiding information just to not overwhelm a new charter then leaves them room for incorrect interpretation in future development also images are pretty
Rules
If multiple key modes are present in a single beatmap set, the keymode must be denoted in the difficulty name.Do we have to? There's enough indications these days for key modes which makes this feel a bit redundant (this used to be a website issue but no longer)
See:
Guidelines
Slider velocity changes should be snapped according to the song's beat structure.pfftt yeah right
Easy
Rules
Slider velocity changes that alter the scrolling speed of the beatmap are disallowed. Slider velocity changes to unify the scroll speed in variable BPM beatmaps are exempt.Redundancy
Scroll normalization must be done in beatmaps with variable BPM.
Normal
Rules
A long note cannot be released during another long note’s body. This requires a level of finger independence that players of this difficulty cannot handle.I feel that since normal goes up to like what 2.7* now that users should be able to release notes in another's body, after all https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/741207#mania/1588737 was ranked as a normal and has it available, either this rule needs clarifying with snapping or changed to a guideline
guidelines prob has additional issues but they're guidelines so they can be ignored weeeee
What prevents someone from using ridiculously high bpm? I suggest making a rule that says that the BPM set for the map cannot exceed two or three or etc times the BPM of the song. That should allow up to 1/32 or 1/48 or etc snapping relative to the song. Depends on what the smallest snapping you believe should be acceptable.Maxus wrote:
The notion of 1ms or 10ms are equal to something that's even faster than 1/16 snap, which is calculated as unsnap which therefore are unrankable.
abraker wrote:
What prevents someone from using ridiculously high bpm? I suggest making a rule that says that the BPM set for the map cannot exceed two or three or etc times the BPM of the song. That should allow up to 1/32 or 1/48 or etc snapping relative to the song. Depends on what the smallest snapping you believe should be acceptable.Maxus wrote:
The notion of 1ms or 10ms are equal to something that's even faster than 1/16 snap, which is calculated as unsnap which therefore are unrankable.
https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Ranking_Criteria#timing.1
@maxus ok i sort of agree with that but if ever that rule could only apply on "if normal is the easiet diff". The screenshot you sent alongside other tricky ln stuff falls under "tech releases" (unless someone can coin a better term). Since it's a tricky pattern to put into words concisely, id rather see explicit screenshot usages backed up with text so like:
Normal as lowest diff in the set:
The following LN usages are not allowed:
LNs where two or more LNs held are at the same physical hand (ex. col 0|2 for 4k, col 0|1|2 for 7k) but have different release timings:
insert screenshot
Once an LN is released, if there is another LN being held, it can only be released after x (placeholder) amount of time
something like that but its a little rough.
@hydria pattern repository
the terms for shield and reverse shield are reversed
shields = rice note followed by an LN
reversed shields = LN followed by a rice note
ik its tails' and you didnt make it but im just putting this out as general information
source for claim: convo with an o2 guy
with that said, i think the pattern repository is a great addition as reference material in the RC
Normal as lowest diff in the set:
The following LN usages are not allowed:
LNs where two or more LNs held are at the same physical hand (ex. col 0|2 for 4k, col 0|1|2 for 7k) but have different release timings:
insert screenshot
Once an LN is released, if there is another LN being held, it can only be released after x (placeholder) amount of time
something like that but its a little rough.
@hydria pattern repository
the terms for shield and reverse shield are reversed
shields = rice note followed by an LN
reversed shields = LN followed by a rice note
ik its tails' and you didnt make it but im just putting this out as general information
source for claim: convo with an o2 guy
with that said, i think the pattern repository is a great addition as reference material in the RC
Hydria wrote:
Pattern Terminology CleanupperformedWhy use this weird term, why not just say "pressed" instead, performed makes it sound like you have to dance to hit keys
Yeah right, will consider to change this later.
Hydria wrote:
Anchor: A pattern that has a relatively high amount of notes in one column, usually found within different types of streams.Can be confused with jacks, though i personally can't think of a better way to phrase it.
Well anchors are basically jack pattern that got mixed with streams , while pure jack pattern usually doesn't get mixed with the streams. imo the terminology should already describe the differences quite clearly.
Hydria wrote:
Chordstream (Jumpstream, Handstream, Quadstream): In 5k and higher keymodes, chordstreams are streams that mix different types of chords. In 4k, streams with chords are either called jumpstreams, handstreams, or quadstreams depending on the highest chord type used.This is a fucking mess, split Jumpstream/Handstream/Quadstream into different categories or at least link them to their relative chord density (Jump - 2, Hand - 3) don't leave room for ambiguity.
Yeah agree with this, i think chordstream should only be described for 5K and above. While technically 4K can use that terms, but very rarely they used this and instead using jumpstream/handstream/quadstream. So yeah, will fix this to refer only 5K and above.
Hydria wrote:
Reverse ShieldMissed terminology, see https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/discord/523609376385269780-539508237460963363-Osumania_Pattern__Repository.png in fact it might be worth just having this available in the wiki anyway since hiding information just to not overwhelm a new charter then leaves them room for incorrect interpretation in future development also images are pretty
Well the terminology in the RC library only for the words that get used in describing the rules, while the terminology that doesn't mentioned in either RC rules/guidelines should be put in the mania wiki instead.
As of now, the wiki still far from being complete, so any effort from community help will be appreciated to complete that.
Hydria wrote:
RulesIf multiple key modes are present in a single beatmap set, the keymode must be denoted in the difficulty name.Do we have to? There's enough indications these days for key modes which makes this feel a bit redundant (this used to be a website issue but no longer)
See:
nice point here, we will consider about this, since this rule was being made while we still use v1 website, but now not anymore.
Hydria wrote:
Easy
RulesSlider velocity changes that alter the scrolling speed of the beatmap are disallowed. Slider velocity changes to unify the scroll speed in variable BPM beatmaps are exempt.Redundancy
Scroll normalization must be done in beatmaps with variable BPM.
Well if the "exempt" clarification didn't exist, it will only make it more redundant since the first rule said the SV disallowed but the second rules saying SV for normalization must exist
If there's better sentences to put it, i'm all ears.
Hydria wrote:
Normal
RulesA long note cannot be released during another long note’s body. This requires a level of finger independence that players of this difficulty cannot handle.I feel that since normal goes up to like what 2.7* now that users should be able to release notes in another's body, after all https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/741207#mania/1588737 was ranked as a normal and has it available, either this rule needs clarifying with snapping or changed to a guideline
guidelines prob has additional issues but they're guidelines so they can be ignored weeeee
Well, we don't use SR to determine difficulty anymore once RC get released, we simply dictate the difficulty by what makes normal a normal. and based on our discussion, those type of LNs don't really suitable for newbie learning curve even for lower BPM.
abraker wrote:
What prevents someone from using ridiculously high bpm? I suggest making a rule that says that the BPM set for the map cannot exceed two or three or etc times the BPM of the song. That should allow up to 1/32 or 1/48 or etc snapping relative to the song. Depends on what the smallest snapping you believe should be acceptable.Maxus wrote:
The notion of 1ms or 10ms are equal to something that's even faster than 1/16 snap, which is calculated as unsnap which therefore are unrankable.
Basically what Hydria said.
you can't really set bpm as you want because it has its own rules in the general Ranking Criteria, we simply doesn't stated it again in mania RC because it already been stated before.
Lenfried- wrote:
@maxus ok i sort of agree with that but if ever that rule could only apply on "if normal is the easiet diff". The screenshot you sent alongside other tricky ln stuff falls under "tech releases" (unless someone can coin a better term). Since it's a tricky pattern to put into words concisely, id rather see explicit screenshot usages backed up with text so like:
Normal as lowest diff in the set:
The following LN usages are not allowed:
LNs where two or more LNs held are at the same physical hand (ex. col 0|2 for 4k, col 0|1|2 for 7k) but have different release timings:
insert screenshot
Once an LN is released, if there is another LN being held, it can only be released after x (placeholder) amount of time
something like that but its a little rough.
I'm unsure whether putting screenshot into something as formal as RC draft is something that can be done honestly. I probably need to confirm this in advance before putting something that never been done in RC before.
-------
Thank you again for the feedback!
Hydria wrote:
RulesIf multiple key modes are present in a single beatmap set, the keymode must be denoted in the difficulty name.Do we have to? There's enough indications these days for key modes which makes this feel a bit redundant (this used to be a website issue but no longer)
See:
Adding here that you can't have exact same difficulty name because the filename will conflict with each other in the folder.
Let's say that you have "XXX - Maniaxxx (Mapper) [Easy].osu" as the 4K Easy and "XXX - Maniaxxx (Mapper) [Easy] - Copy.osu" as the 7K. Initially you will still see both of the map when the map is loaded. But when you update the 7K, osu! will rename the file to "XXX - Maniaxxx (Mapper) [Easy].osu" replacing the 4K one. Fortunately, the client will tell you if you are going to overwrite an existing map and you can abort. But with how modding cycle is and how often a map is going to be updated, it will be a drag to maintain the folder.
In common terms
-
-
Pattern terminology
-
Key Mode: The number of keys present in a difficulty.A nitpick but I think it's better to use words with established definitions instead of assuming the reader knows what words are referring to. In this case I would change it to, "Key Mode: The number of columns present in a difficulty" because "columns" has been clearly defined prior but "keys" has not. It's hard to imagine how anyone would "keys" can refer to something else, but I think it's better to preserve basis.
-
Keysounding: Hit sounding using samples extremely similar or directly from the song in their respective places. This method of hit sounding usually provides low feedback to the player.I am not sure what "low feedback" means here. Does it mean to say "minor feedback" as in it is usually not the main/major source of feedback for the player?
-
Slider Velocity: ...I would put the definition for this before defining "Long Term Slider Velocity" and "Short Term Slider Velocity". I would also put those two next to each other. They are currently separated by "Musical Phrase", and I think it's better to group the SV related stuff together.
Pattern terminology
Anchor: A pattern that has a relatively high amount of notes in one column, usually found within different types of streams.According to this definition there can be multiple anchors present in an overall pattern simultaneously so long as one column has relatively lower amount of notes. This means 3 of the 4 columns can have relatively high amount of notes compared to a column with relatively low amount of notes, and you can selectively pick one of those 3 columns and claim they are an anchor. I am not sure whether this intended or not, but if not, I would word it as "relatively higher amount of notes in one column than any other column".
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Inverse: A type of pattern that replaces all regular notes with long notes in a given section, commonly when there are enough long notes to cover a majority of the playfield.I think this is a weak definition of inverse as it relies on the concept of what should be replaced. I would also argue that "commonly when there are enough long notes to cover a majority of the playfield." is not entirely accurate as you can have inverse type of patterns limited to a few columns and still be inverse. Arguably as low as two columns would be sufficient enough for an inverse pattern like this one. I would define it as, "A type of pattern that consists of mostly long notes and has spaces that span less than the length of the surrounding long notes".
Alright thank you for all your feedback. We will go through all of them and fix what needs to be fixed. Stay tuned
Topic Starter
As of today, the new osu!mania Ranking Criteria is officially live!
It can be found here: https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Ranking_Criteria/osu!mania
Furthermore, like with the other mode RC changes:
As of the big amount of changes, only beatmaps submitted past this amendment are going under this new set of rules. Every beatmap submitted prior this amendment will get treated and handled under the previous set of rules.
This legacy regulation expires in 6 months from today on. Everything that is not nominated within the next 6 months will also be treated under the new ruleset then.
It can be found here: https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Ranking_Criteria/osu!mania
Furthermore, like with the other mode RC changes:
As of the big amount of changes, only beatmaps submitted past this amendment are going under this new set of rules. Every beatmap submitted prior this amendment will get treated and handled under the previous set of rules.
This legacy regulation expires in 6 months from today on. Everything that is not nominated within the next 6 months will also be treated under the new ruleset then.