I don't have any problem swapping the kddk streams for 1/6 x 1/4 because believe it or not the only part I really care the most about are the last two streams...
I'll make a response to everything when I have time, for now, that's all I can say.
I'll be honest here, I left a NERFED version of my map (Applied all of Taikocracy's suggestions) in the bottom of the map's description, it's still pretty high in * (7.84* iirc), I removed kddk 1/6 and replaced it with some 1/6x1/4 patterns to "reflect better". I cut the entire end streams and now they should follow some rhythm, I made it in like 15 minutes so it might be poorly edited but at least it's something, so... enjoy it...
Meh I'm gonna reply anyways
Taikocracy
Shinsekai-
Axer
Nifty is the best mapper to ever exist; he creates masterpieces. Anyone that thinks otherwise is an uneducated fool!
[]
I hope my replies were decent to a certain extent, I'm not really used to arguing about mapping as I'm not the most experienced mapper ever nor the best at arguing about stuff.
Anyways, plz enjoy game.
I'll make a response to everything when I have time, for now, that's all I can say.
I'll be honest here, I left a NERFED version of my map (Applied all of Taikocracy's suggestions) in the bottom of the map's description, it's still pretty high in * (7.84* iirc), I removed kddk 1/6 and replaced it with some 1/6x1/4 patterns to "reflect better". I cut the entire end streams and now they should follow some rhythm, I made it in like 15 minutes so it might be poorly edited but at least it's something, so... enjoy it...
Meh I'm gonna reply anyways
frukoyurdakul
Hm.frukoyurdakul wrote:
More opinions were asked so here I am.
About the 1/6 streams: Those buzzing sounds don't actually support it. From what I've seen the main usage is 1/4 1/6 on these occasions.
1/6 kddk is way more viable and playable than 1/8¹ which is the snapping I should use if I were mapping exactly to the song, I don't really like how 1/6 x 1/4 looks on these patterns either because it practically removes all of the intensity I had for them as they were hard to an extent (kddk 1/6).
And, repetitive kddkddk on every stream lacks for variation, and to be honest that is the pp pattern there.
Then if you can, suggest me any good 100% 1/6 patterns that aren't kddk that could be playable if they were in a huge 3 second 175bpm stream made out of only 1/6 patterns, suggestions are always welcome!
I can tell they are specifically put to increase the star rating, because any other variation lowers the SR down and they can be used.
wow, removing chunks of map decreases star rating?
Seriously now, I don't like when people say that I blatantly abused the system, I never put them specifically to increase star rating, if I did I would've used 1/6 all over the map, if you had a slight bit of reason maybe you could realize that I put them in the drops, so where they SHOULD BE not because "oh oh high star rating pp map oowowo more kddk".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against 1/6 streams or anything since I mapped one, or I don't look the mapping meta or something.
I'm sure you mapped 1/6 streams on a different genre of music and probably in a different BPM, if not way lower than this one.
But on this occasion they just don't fit, because the buzzing sound is not really 1/6, it's 1/8, (see ¹ for reference)
and it's speeding up in the stream. If you want to map it, either map it properly and make it unplayable you know I'm joking or avoid these kinds of usages.
good joke, reminds me of another Camellia song that was mapped (AND RANKED) that had a last surprise longstream with 17 varied 1/6 x 1/4 patterns with doubles in the short breaks, I'm sure that map did really well... Anyways, back on topic, if I avoid this then what am I supposed to do? Ignore all of the buzzing and put a boring spinner? It's gonna be impossible to not suggest those 1/6 x 1/4 patterns that I don't think fit².
And, because of the speed-up of the buzzing sound, I recommend starting of 1/4, at the middle of it 1/4 1/6 (example: 00:37:292 - this spot and yes, you see the sounds are going faster on the exact spot which proves that it's 1/8) and at the end finish it with 1/6 kkkdddk or something (00:37:720 - which is this spot). Long 1/6 streams like that definitely not support a map which makes it 8* because they are actually pretty easy, and because of the reasons I mentioned it doesn't fit. (For reference check ²)
About the long streams of what Taikocracy mentioned: I agree with him. Overmap might be acceptable, yes, but it is acceptable on creating proper rhythms to make some good structure, and flow, not a stream.
But it does create a proper rhythm and it does have a good structure and flow, so why can't it be a stream? Are we ignoring the fun factor here? It's both rankable and fun so what's the real problem?
Every instrument here at least stops once while the stream goes on and on without a reason. Putting a stream there doesn't make the song more intense, it is actually the other way around.
Making streams don't make the song more intense, they make the map more intense. I made these streams to give it sort of an epic ending feeling, a challenge in the end of a marathon, just like soe other Camellia song that got ranked with long streams in the end full of 1/6, mine only has 4 1/6 dddk and the ways the pattern connect and flow is completely perfect to me, I keep accepting suggestions from people and it keeps getting better and better,
so I don't really see how would making a long stream in the end makes the song/map less intense...
Less is good, so you can increase intensity by putting 9-plets 7-plets 11-plets in a row but not making a stream, because the sounds are not supporting streams.
Less is good to you, I can also increase the intensivity if I make everything in the stream a finisher, but this is not a war for intensivity,
this is a stream to have fun, to have a big challenge in the map so people don't just walk blindly into what I had to put these kddk patterns for, I made it a huge deathstream so I people wouldn't say it was too easy, that it was blatant pp map, with the kddk patterns I just WAS FORCED to make something of a higher difficulty. This map is not DTeable, is not EZDTeable either, the last streams are way too complex for it to be a pp farm map, now if it reaches 8*
it's not all my fault, the song follows 1/8 on the drops and since that's unplayable for any human being that isn't from the top 25 I'm trying to map something more viable for the rest of the 14975 taiko players that would probably play this map once if it got ranked, this map is both fun for experienced and for inexperienced players, might not be fun for all players but it is fun to most.
This map isn't easy, saying it's easy is just overlooking all of the complexity it has and just looking at the kddk 1/6.
And I'm telling this to everyone, the system the SR for my map, if the SR system said it was 6.5* I'd have uploaded it anyways but then people would've probably whined that the 1/6 should be harder than the 1/6 x 1/4 in Midnaait's mapset.
Without further ado, I hope I didn't come out as offensive or insulting, I'm just a little tired from all of this.
Nepuri
Hm.Nepuri wrote:
I completely agree with Taikocracys stance on this, especially the longer kiai streams.
By mapping it as a solid stream for good 20 seconds or so, you lose opportunity to emphasize strong sounds per a 1/2 break.
From what I've seen, people enjoy the last streams, I don't see any reason to change them, because, to be honest, why change it when people already enjoy it, we're removing the fun factor I hold for this map for the sake of ranking it, what is there to ranking something that you don't find fun? Nothing. If it's not fun why bother?
Limiting yourself to a solid stream though limits your options to emphasize such things. It is not only an alternative, but a very viable one.
Sure it's an alternative but like I said, there are other alternatives that just like this one, I don't really like, so I'll keep the stream the way it is just for the sake of playability and to keep the map fun, not to map the song perfectly. Hope Y'all don't mind so much.
Taikocracy
Ah well, finally got time to reply to this.Taikocracy wrote:
i talked to axer about a lot of this stuff when he asked me to testplay it, so to be fair this was kind of inevitable if the things i told him about weren't changed
Yeah sure, we talked a bit* about this stuff (as our chat lasted around 15 minutes), I did expect the bubble to get popped because of the kddk 1/6 but what really triggered something in me was the fact that you also popped it because of the last 2 streams, which I didn't expect at all to be a problem,
specially when they're on my favorite section of both the map and the song.
i call into question the playability of all the 1/6 spams, whether the music call for such a spam or not it is extremely hard to play this and highly unnecessary when there are multiple alternatives. if every person who mapped electronic decided to map their buildups with 1/6 streams, that would be horrible. in cases like midnaait's version of the same map, 1/4+1/6 is used to make the map more intuitive to play. the alternatives include any other version of 1/4+1/6, or using a spinner in places that have a sound that grows steadily.
the last two kiais, and i mean this in such a sincere manner, should NOT BE STREAMS. none of the instruments present in either kiais are constantly making noises that can or should be plotted. rather, the scheme present in the last two kiais to me is let me place a don where ever the instrument isn't playing, which, in that case, why not make the whole map a stream? the same logic could be applied universally. intensity =/= streams, silence =/= dons. i ask that you remap the kiais to be more rhythmically accurate, and if you need any suggestions or help, i'm happy to work with you on it.
I'm not exactly looking to cut the last 2 streams more than Surono's mod did already. I take all the blame for blatantly making the map fun by ignoring the fact that some instruments do cease to make sound in some ticks, the scheme in the last to kiais actually is "Let me place a don here so everything connects and it becomes both harder and fun", again, I take all the blame for blatantly putting dons where there isn't any persisting instrument,
but it's something I've sacrificed for the sake of the map's fun factor.
the same goes for anything in this mod, if you need extra help or anything feel free to message me, i'm happy to help if i need to
Thanks! I will message you if I need any help, don't expect much though.
thanks
Shinsekai- / Taikocracy
This is reply is for both Shinsekai- and Taikocracy.Shinsekai- wrote:
I can disagree with this cuz this "using a spinner", I think if Axer add one spinner will be bad for the song cuz sounds like this one " 00:36:692 - " will be unused, Why i'm saying one spinner doesn't work? well one spinner can be easily CLEARED F A S T leaving like 3 or 4 seconds with no notes and that's kinda bad cuz we are losing sounds and wasting the sounds as well =S if he delete those 1/6's the map automatically will be too easy for more experienced players, in my oppion this version is more tehcnical than Mid's version actually People can judge this like " THAT MAP IS ONLY FOR PP, FUCK IT, IS SHIT" But clear this map requires skill to make it clear or well FC. And in my oppion the kiais are ok they are pretty accurateTaikocracy wrote:
i call into question the playability of all the 1/6 spams, whether the music call for such a spam or not it is extremely hard to play this and highly unnecessary when there are multiple alternatives. if every person who mapped electronic decided to map their buildups with 1/6 streams, that would be horrible. in cases like midnaait's version of the same map, 1/4+1/6 is used to make the map more intuitive to play. the alternatives include any other version of 1/4+1/6, or using a spinner in places that have a sound that grows steadily.
Using a spinner is basically ignoring the rhythm and sound(in this case at least). Not an option to me, it might be an alternative to some of you but to me, it's just a lazy and vague way of mapping it.I'm agree with this but they are pretty accurate xd the things he needs now is notes to delete the 1st seccion of the kiai is ok for me the 2nd is pretty overmapped in my oppinion, And like I said the kiais doesn't needs to be re-mapped only nerf deleting notes that's allTaikocracy wrote:
the last two kiais, and i mean this in such a sincere manner, should NOT BE STREAMS. none of the instruments present in either kiais are constantly making noises that can or should be plotted. rather, the scheme present in the last two kiais to me is let me place a don where ever the instrument isn't playing, which, in that case, why not make the whole map a stream? the same logic could be applied universally. intensity =/= streams, silence =/= dons. i ask that you remap the kiais to be more rhythmically accurate, and if you need any suggestions or help, i'm happy to work with you on it.
As for the 1st stream: It is indeed pretty accurate, at least to me, I've been told it's fun to play, it sounds good, and that it plays out well,
I need a bigger reason to start cutting it than "it doesn't follow the music exactly like it tells you to".
As for the 2nd stream: It's not overmapped, it has only 4 dddk 1/6 patterns and has very simple streams. If mine is overmapped then so is Midnaait's right?
Taikocracy
Shinsekai-
Axer
Gonna meme around in this bit of post I've got left.Taikocracy wrote:
okay but that goes for any spinner in any map, so that's kind of invalid in itself lol. there are more technical maps than this also without the 1/6 spam, so the same can be achieved with some alternativesShinsekai- & Taikocracy wrote:
i call into question the playability of all the 1/6 spams, whether the music call for such a spam or not it is extremely hard to play this and highly unnecessary when there are multiple alternatives. if every person who mapped electronic decided to map their buildups with 1/6 streams, that would be horrible. in cases like midnaait's version of the same map, 1/4+1/6 is used to make the map more intuitive to play. the alternatives include any other version of 1/4+1/6, or using a spinner in places that have a sound that grows steadily.
I can disagree with this cuz this "using a spinner", I think if Axer add one spinner will be bad for the song cuz sounds like this one " 00:36:692 - " will be unused, Why i'm saying one spinner doesn't work? well one spinner can be easily CLEARED F A S T leaving like 3 or 4 seconds with no notes and that's kinda bad cuz we are losing sounds and wasting the sounds as well =S if he delete those 1/6's the map automatically will be too easy for more experienced players, in my oppion this version is more tehcnical than Mid's version actually People can judge this like " THAT MAP IS ONLY FOR PP, FUCK IT, IS SHIT" But clear this map requires skill to make it clear or well FC. And in my oppion the kiais are ok they are pretty accurate
I already made a special nerfed diff for you and other people that I left in the map's description, it is 7.84* and has the last streams "cut and emphasized" and more importantly, the 1/6 kddk removed and replaced with 1/6 x 1/4, you might like it, you might not, that doesn't really mean anything to me as it's something I've done in 15 minutes for some people to experience how the map would be if I did apply your mod, although it's not accurately represented because I only had 15 minutes to do that. Either way, I'm sure that's at least a preview of how the map would be with 1/6 x 1/4 patterns in the drops instead of kddk 1/6 and with the last 2 streams way more cut instead of following a Fun Stream scheme.eh ok we'll see about thatShinsekai & Taikocracy wrote:
the last two kiais, and i mean this in such a sincere manner, should NOT BE STREAMS. none of the instruments present in either kiais are constantly making noises that can or should be plotted. rather, the scheme present in the last two kiais to me is let me place a don where ever the instrument isn't playing, which, in that case, why not make the whole map a stream? the same logic could be applied universally. intensity =/= streams, silence =/= dons. i ask that you remap the kiais to be more rhythmically accurate, and if you need any suggestions or help, i'm happy to work with you on it.
I'm agree with this but they are pretty accurate xd the things he needs now is notes to delete the 1st seccion of the kiai is ok for me the 2nd is pretty overmapped in my oppinion, And like I said the kiais doesn't needs to be re-mapped only nerf deleting notes that's all
I'm sure I made it clear, but either way, I'll see about that sooner or later.
Nifty is the best mapper to ever exist; he creates masterpieces. Anyone that thinks otherwise is an uneducated fool!
[]
I hope my replies were decent to a certain extent, I'm not really used to arguing about mapping as I'm not the most experienced mapper ever nor the best at arguing about stuff.
Anyways, plz enjoy game.