After a while of it existing in the community as an option, I think that the modders and mappers are ready to discuss it in detail. What I've thought is to compile Pros and Cons of the system, and suggestions for improvement. These are just my initial thoughts, I'd like people of any experience to get involved, and try to think of new things or discuss not so discussed topics. Even the smallest things are to be mentioned. The lists below are not final.

Pros

1. Able to filter difficulties.
2. a e s t h e t i c.
3. Is useful for smooth top class map modding.
4. Less repeated things from modders. (although is this even a pro, since mappers tend to change their mind after modders point out the same thing)
5. Collab maps can a bit more easily be handled.
6. You can note posts?
7. Takes less immediate commitment from both the modders and mappers side.

Cons

1. Polishing the mod is not as viable, there's no way to prepare a mod beforehand with osu! resources.
2. In the current system modding is considered as a secondary involvement, people are much more known for being mappers or players, but rarely is a user known for being a good modder. The new system puts modders all mixed up, so others viewing the thread won't be able to comprehend the value of one modder, in fact, with all the posts mixed up so much, I doubt anybody will be looking over mods unless the timestamp says that something was already mentioned. This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride.
3. There is no formatting.
4. Seems like there is a lot of unused space than it needs to be. ~Noffy. Personally I think at some point it is handy, but removing a little bit white space would be more fitting as I won't be required to scroll a lot down for just one discussion on a post.
5. GDers can't post their updates in the thread so you don't have a history of them if people wanted to ever look back for changes.
6. Some mappers like to reply to mods first before applying it, so after answering a mod and mark it as resolved, keeping a track later would be a pain.
7. New reward system is literally a con
8. Hype system is also a con
9. Character limit... Currently in case I need to write a huge paragraph, I will have to break it down into adding more into responses of the initial post, which is just a pain imo. So imo I think character limit could have a higher cap?

Issues that only seem to be curent

1. Currently you can't view activity on mv2 on old site. On new site you can, but it's mega spammy.
2. Currently, if a difficulty changes beatmap number due to being renamed, or deleted and added back between uploads, all points made on it disappear into an abyss.
3. Is there no limit per kudosu on a mapset yet?
4. You can't see the listing of currently nominated maps.
5. Writing box is impractical, it's height is too small, covering about 2 and a half rows. Scrolling goes to like 1.5 rows and I get to skip text basically on longer posts. I think making it by default to be higher, or simply make it follow your preference of its height is the way to go, because the current chosen box is too small for any editing conventions.

Improvement suggestions

1. Make it available to filter per modder and per timeline. I am pretty sure many people would prefer that, I cant imagine myself browsing mapthreads on modv2 in it's current state. Especially the "resolved" issues.
   

Undiscussed/Unsorted

• New popping system is in place, everytime a BN posts an issue, the mapset automatically becomes popped.

I will try to edit the post often with stuff discussed in the thread.

Sure, a e s t h e t i c. But I prefer modding v1 tho.
not really see how ranking works on v2.

MaridiuS wrote:

Hype train?

chuu chuu

There are other cons too such as

1. not being able to subscribe
2. GDers can't post their updates in the thread so you don't have a history of them if people wanted to ever look back for changes. (This is quite minor and for some even irrelevant)
3. Because there is no thread mods are not recorded in post history. Many people use their post history to backtrack things posted in threads as it is easy to navigate and be informed if there is a response (via number of number of replies displayed).

Kisses wrote:

There are other cons too such as

1. not being able to subscribe
2. GDers can't post their updates in the thread so you don't have a history of them if people wanted to ever look back for changes. (This is quite minor and for some even irrelevant)
3. Because there is no thread mods are not recorded in post history. Many people use their post history to backtrack things posted in threads as it is easy to navigate and be informed if there is a response (via number of number of replies displayed).

Those are real facts, so I added all of them in cons without discussion. Looking forward to more facts and opinions.

MaridiuS wrote:

Cons

1. Modders are limited with the timeline. No freedom into compiling issues related to one concept if more are mentioned. People often use stuff in the same mod post like; Rhythm errors: *Modder mentions few timestamps related to rhythm. Then something like Flow errors: *Modder entions few timestamps related to flow. Modders try to dynamically connect their thoughts about one specific issue at a time really often. Being limited to expressing concerns via timeline only will hinder that. u can still link do that iirc
2. In the current system modding is considered as a secondary involvement, people are much more known for being mappers or players, but rarely is a user known for being a good modder. The new system puts modders all mixed up, so others viewing the thread won't be able to comprehend the value of one modder, in fact, with all the posts mixed up so much, I doubt anybody will be looking over mods unless the timestamp says that something was already mentioned. This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride. so whats the issue here? whats important its the mod itself not who posted it
3. There is no formatting. irrelevant

that hype train thing looks dumb atm. idk whats the purpose of it lo

pkhg wrote:

MaridiuS wrote:

Cons

1. Modders are limited with the timeline. No freedom into compiling issues related to one concept if more are mentioned. People often use stuff in the same mod post like; Rhythm errors: *Modder mentions few timestamps related to rhythm. Then something like Flow errors: *Modder entions few timestamps related to flow. Modders try to dynamically connect their thoughts about one specific issue at a time really often. Being limited to expressing concerns via timeline only will hinder that. u can still link do that iirc
2. In the current system modding is considered as a secondary involvement, people are much more known for being mappers or players, but rarely is a user known for being a good modder. The new system puts modders all mixed up, so others viewing the thread won't be able to comprehend the value of one modder, in fact, with all the posts mixed up so much, I doubt anybody will be looking over mods unless the timestamp says that something was already mentioned. This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride. so whats the issue here? whats important its the mod itself not who posted it
3. There is no formatting. irrelevant

that hype train thing looks dumb atm. idk whats the purpose of it lo

1. It will turn out a lot more cumbersome and unorganized.
2. The modders may want some recognition from the community not just the mapper in order to have motivation to mod. Generally people dislike modding and take no pride to it, with new changes nobody will take pride in it. Comparing it to mapping, most mappers wouldn't map if their maps when ranked won't show the name of the mapper.
3. Relevant because it can come in handy for some people that want to throw links with a name, accentuating certain buzzwords or memes ;d.

re: cons.

subscription has been added recently actually, with the watch feature.
polishing is fine if you do the entire thing in notepad first and post one by one, as it has been.

of course, the issue there is this whole business of constantly having to alt tab and write something on a website rather than having it on a notepad sheet right next to you. i'd love to see a thing where you can post a giant blob of timestamps, separated by lines or whatever, and it auto resolves onto the timeline. would make it a lot easier for those of us who don't want to constantly be alt tabbing or who mod offline frequently.

Naotoshi wrote:

of course, the issue there is this whole business of constantly having to alt tab and write something on a website rather than having it on a notepad sheet right next to you. i'd love to see a thing where you can post a giant blob of timestamps, separated by lines or whatever, and it auto resolves onto the timeline. would make it a lot easier for those of us who don't want to constantly be alt tabbing or who mod offline frequently.

Hey that might be an ideal way to separate the timelines. Each time you do a shift+enter a new smooth line will appear below. Those new segments should include options of praise / issue / suggestion.

Pros
shitloads of kudosu, now you'll be able to gain one for every single blanket

i personally dont care if my name is shown or not in maps/mods and for ppl who cares, thats not modv2's goal. also names are still shown so idk what are you complaining about

MaridiuS wrote:

although is this even a pro, since mappers tend to change their mind after modders point out the same thing)

i think u can "upvote" a suggestion or just reply to it with something like "i agree". its much more organized than doing it on thread xd

pkhg wrote:

i personally dont care if my name is shown or not in maps/mods and for ppl who cares, thats not modv2's goal. also names are still shown so idk what are you complaining about

Yeah shown, but I wonder who will bother searching for that specific modder's posts in the thread to see what specifically that modder wrote with the thread mega flooded with all kinds of stuff. For example I tend to sometimes read last few mods from the mapset I'm about to mod, and I sometimes take a liking to someones wording and would like to checkout more from him. That won't be happening in moddingv2 timeline system.

Tbh I think MariduiS has a point about formatting and the specific modder thing (a combination of the 2). In the thread if a BN posts a mod you can see all the points together which is very convenient especially when several points are related to each other.

Also if a map receives a post qualify mod all members of the community can discuss systemic order. That can't really be done with mv2... well not in an intuitive way at least

In my opinion, hype train is just the same thing as the actual Loved system: Begging for favs/hype.

If it was at least 12 suggestions instead of 12 random comments, that would be more representative of what chiefs wants to improve, the quality of ranked beatmaps.

I don't pretend that mods always improve maps quality, but at least, it can give different opinions from different mappers about the mapset.


EDIT: Very nice idea you got here MaridiuS by the way. Also, why not adding a link of the posts in the list of each point discussed in the thread, so it might be easier to check for people that are interested about the points.

anyone know how to edit the description on the new site other than submitting/updating the whole map again

Evening wrote:

anyone know how to edit the description on the new site other than submitting/updating the whole map again

it still goes back to the thread even on v2

Edit: Might as well talk about the v2 lol

I hope the new rewarding system does not reward per suggestion/point. It will incentivize people to point out as much as possible which can be spammed like blankets or repeating the same thing over and over again. (like if the modder does not understand the mapper's concept and instead of asking, he points out the whole thing with multiple timelines)

Limiting the kudosu gain per mapset/difficulty is a cool way to make sure the modders have the best interest in mind. (modding to improve the beatmap, without worrying about kudosu gains)

timemon wrote:

Evening wrote:

anyone know how to edit the description on the new site other than submitting/updating the whole map again

this method works just fine, thanks!

Checked new pishifat video and... No pop button lol.

Also Pachiru, I don't think its necessary to connect it, since people interested in improving mv2 or finding out more should read the whole thread and the thread isn't even developed yet.

MaridiuS wrote:

This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride.

That is a good thing. Levels the playing field.

If there is such a thing as modder's pride, aka a thing making some modders feel they are above others, then there are deeper issues at hand that needs fixing. Ideally all should have an equal say. And if comments of the inexperienced bug you so much, then it is all of the experienced modders/mappers faults for not giving more opportunities to create experienced modders/mappers.

timemon wrote:

Limiting the kudosu gain per mapset/difficulty is a cool way to make sure the modders have the best interest in mind. (modding to improve the beatmap, without worrying about kudosu gains)

Definitely should be capped per map or per difficulty, I agree.

abraker wrote:

MaridiuS wrote:

This means no one will be able to take notice on a specific modder, therefore... rip modder pride.

That is a good thing. Levels the playing field.

If there is such a thing as modder's pride, aka a thing making some modders feel they are above others, then there are deeper issues at hand that needs fixing. Ideally all should have an equal say. And if comments of the inexperienced bug you so much, then it is all of the experienced modders/mappers faults for not giving more opportunities to create experienced modders/mappers.

I'm sorry but we're talking about experienced modders, what do they do? Help people. People are competing in who can help people more, I think that's much more noble than mapping for fame or farming pp jumpmaps to be ranked better than someone. Everyone is given equal say, but some modders don't word stuff properly, mention useless things, and force their opinions without a reason why is that a valid opinion. With new system those modders won't be able to look up for other modders which do stuff better, having someone better than you is always good as it motivates you into becoming as good as well as having from someone to learn from. That's basically how I got into BNG, by looking up to people that mod greatly.

abraker wrote:

aka a thing making some modders feel they are above others

Pretty sure that modder pride is simple; enjoying analyzing the song in correlation to the map, analyzing the map in correlation with itself and trying to understand the ideas. You could include enjoying feedback that you receive or can receive as a modder too. It's far from looking down on others, as everyone was once a bad modder.

In the new system modding will be completely a secondary osu! option, mostly used only for m4ms and getting mods to get to the stage of Nomination. Not for actually trying to polish your knowledge or helping the mapper, or at least much rarely, as there are some issues where I mentioned limited mod design.

Can I also mention that moddingv2 is actually great too for IRC modding? Since feedback for your map is updated real time it's very easy to react to. I've tried it with Mir already and it worked out great. If there was still any confusion with the points we made we were still able to talk ingame but overall most of the times it was fine with replying et cetera. Don't need to save logs anymore with it!

Also since they're selecting new BNs on modding skills now I very do wonder how this all will turn out when moddingv2 only supports scattered posts

Yes, a way to track maps you posted on would be great.

I'll add some things on cons:

1. It's not possible to use the old codes like bolding or italic texts to emphasize something is matter a lot or not, and there are no colors as well.
2. I think hype system is even worse than kudosu, since non-mappers, even non-players of that mode has ability to hype the map, while the actual modders may miss the hype of their mod and the hype of it won't be increased even if you reply all of the mod comments. This needs to be fixed I think.
3. (Already told, but it's an important one) GD mappers should allow to resolve issues on their diffs. With this way the original mapper has to go through all of the comments and say "Resolved" by adding another post.
4. The edit section of a comment does not show us the "Resolved" button, so if we change something about the mod comment we have to delete the entire post and put a new one. Instead, the button can appear when we press "Edit" button on the comment.
5. BNs are not able to veto the first nomination (a.k.a bubble) and in order to change something we always have to ask a QAT member, or worse, qualify the map and DQ (by asking a QAT member again) to apply the change itself, which will destroy the mapper's morale totally, and it'll also make the ranked map database a bit busier which is kinda unneccessary.
6. The mapper should add his own change with a "Resolved" button to clarify that he/she has done this change, instead of posting it once and posting again as "Yeah, resolved." for the 2nd time.

I'll also add some suggestions:

1. I don't know if some function exists that checks "Pending" mod comments to arrange the appearance of "Nominate" button alongside with the hype train, but if there is not one, it should be added.
2. The "General" and "General (all difficulties)" tabs are a bit confusing in itself, which the modder may confuse where to put a timing issue or a diff related issue. Something along "General (diff specific)" can be done to clarify it even more.
3. The comments can be seperated and listed by person who modded the map, by doing categorizing the mod comments that has "Suggestion" or "Problem" button with a dropdownlist.

Something else had come up to my mind but I can't remember it now, so I'll end this one there. Edit: Now I remember, instead of "Resolved", "Applied" or "Denied" with green and red colors are better I think, since it can clarify whether the mapper is rejected it or not without reading all of the comments.

Not sure why modding v2 is being forced on all users when it's not even finished, it still needs more development and feedback. As someone who took part in modding v2 testing, I know that not much community feedback was recorded during development. The only way to report issues was to post on github. It was tedious to learn how, and I never saw anyone except naxess post feedback there. Only technical bugs that needed to be fixed.

As of now, almost modding v2 set I've seen has been a chaotic mess. Here's why

1. All responded issues are grouped into "resolved", regardless of how they were treated.
When an issue is mentioned and responded to by the mapper, they either. It's not possible to tell what was accepted or rejected from feedback. In mv1, most users would use colours or response formats to make it easy to read what was accepted or rejected. Mv2 has no difference between them.

2. The age of the issue does not matter.
If I remap something, I can indicate I did so in mv1 by posting. In mv2, all issues from the previous version are still marked on the beatmap, even though they have no affiliation to the current map.

3. It is not possible to group mods by the modder who wrote an issue.
Different people have different views on a map. When all of their comments are thrown together in a mesh-pot, its difficult to see what each person thought about the map. It is extremely difficult to gauge the community's opinion on a map in mv2.

4. There is nowhere to have an actual discussion.
If I want to ask the mapper a question The general section is spammed with hype praises, the timeline is overflowing with small issues. The textbox forces smaller messages, which limit developed discussions like the one I'm writing. The perfect place to ask previously would have been in the beatmap's topic thread, but that's been disabled.

5. When I create a post, it will automatically scroll to it.
This becomes a nuisance if I am modding a marathon with 100+ comments, and I try to leave some comments about the ending section. Every time I post, I have to pointlessly scroll through the entire modding history to the top of the thread just to post another issue. This is a seriously overlooked design flaw with no benefit.

6. It's not possible to use the enter key.
To add further chaos, all mods that are posted are in long paragraphs with no formatting. This only adds to the chaos which makes it impossible to read. Here's this post without using the enter key, this is literally what I would have posted if we used modding v2.
7. There is no option to veto.
If a map is not deemed worthy for rank by the second nominator, they are unable to do anything about it besides say "I don't like it". In modding v1, a veto could take place, which would encourage discussion that would actually improve the map. Because this function is removed, quality of ranked maps can drastically decrease by not having a veto, as the only way to change something would be by finding an issue that is worthy of disqualification.

Nobody on the BN server has said forcing v2 is a good idea. Nobody wants to kill the old forum just yet. There are flaws, but most BNs just do not care about kudosu. Many would prefer using the old forum, even if it did not give out kudosu. That's just how the community works.

For these reasons, I will not be modding or nominating any set that uses modding v2 until at least some of these issues are fixed. Many BNs share this opinion

somehow i find v2 is rly annoying, despite wanted to point a lot of stuff that went wrong from a map, for me as a mapper and a modder

but actually, v1 looks way more better as it is, since a modder can point out a lot of stuff what went wrong from a certain map tbh

If the intention was to prevent posts on the beatmap threads for maps using Modding V2, the quick reply box still allows people to post there.

thread posts are made in chronological order, so you know what's still relevant and irrelevant; just because something is resolved doesn't mean it isn't irrelevant to those looking back at the thread (but ofc it's filtered with all other irrelevant posts that could be made a year ago)

edit: I think Sinnoh covered it tbh, nvm

Sinnoh wrote:

but most BNs just do not care about kudosu. Many would prefer using the old forum, even if it did not give out kudosu. That's just how the community works.

Can we wait till I get in the top 50 kds before we get rid of it, thnx

there's still no replacement for the kudosu system, why is this being forced on mappers and modders when it is not done yet?

This may be "just a design thing" but modding v2 in addition to previously mentioned issues is big and bulky.
Let's look at a single point made on modding v2


while white space is important to differentiate different items, the extent to which this is done, as circled in red, is absolutely excessive.
it's a waste of space.
more than half of this image is just empty space! half!!
with so much of it, i can only see maybe 3-4 points with replies on my very large screen at a time without having to zoom out.


compare it to a mod on a map and its reply that's in v1
in which you can see and read over a dozen points at a time. everything is still clear as to what is what. it's easy to look at and see the entire thing all at once unless a modder's post is very lengthy.

v2 in comparison is a pain in the ass to read through. I can't see how long a modder's post is at a glance, I have to scroll and scroll and scroll and scroll and scroll. If i want to look for a specific point without knowing the time it was posted at, i have to scroll and scroll and scroll and scroll. It's inefficient.

1. It should be possible to see only a specific modder's points at a time. It's already possible to just see posts you made yourself by clicking "mine" so this should be doable.
2. fix the fucking design to waste less space.
3. ability to sort mod posts either by the timestamp, or the date they were posted. Make the date posted sorting option the default to give an idea of how a map has changed over time.
4. give mappers the ability to mark points as irrelevant if a difficulty has been remapped.
5. there's no forum emotes on the mod v2 thread. emotes can help convey emotion!! bring them back!!
6. points on previously uploaded but no longer existing difficulties should still be accessible. reasons detailed below.
7. add pagination if a difficulty's mod thread has over a certain number of replies, like 20. scrolling through someone's map's thread if it has 100+ points would be hellish.
8. give mapset host the ability to give other specified users the ability to resolve issues. this would address the current problem with GDers replying and unable to resolve themselves. these other users would be marked as "Guest Mapper" similar to how the host mapper is marked with a green tag.
9. instead of kds per point, maybe make a mapper able to access a drop down list of those who have posted suggestions or problems in the mapset. from this menu, they could then award kudosu just like in the forum.
10. when scrolling through a thread, the box for posting an issue would remain always visible at the top of the screen. this would make it easier for modders to review other points at close timestamps while reviewing their own, or just to read over the thread in general while writing their mod points. Much better than having to constantly scroll aaaalll the way down to a point, then aaalll the way back up to the box for posting a point.
11. make it possible for a mapper to edit the map description! currently this can only be done by finding the beatmap's forum thread or updating the map!
    that's terrible!!

Also currently, if a difficulty changes beatmap number due to being renamed, or deleted and added back between uploads, all points made on it disappear into an abyss.
They become unviewable, unfindable, and unrepliable.
Except weirdly enough, they still get counted in the number of open issues on the beatmap watch page if they were never resolved:

this pictured mapset only currently has 8 accessible open issues, but this number has been different after I
1.) added a test difficulty
2.) posted 5 comments on it
3.) deleted the difficulty, and re uploaded the set without it.
the test points I made are inaccessible.
but this number... must mean that those points must exist.. somewhere.

A mapper should be able to mark that "this old difficulty" is the same as a difficulty currently on the set through some sort of management menu to merge points from a previous difficulty name or beatmap number into a current difficulty's thread.
This is extremely important to prevent accidentally erasing all modding on a difficulty due to changing the name of it.
"you have to be careful to rename the difficulty and upload without going to osu's menu" is extremely risky and will result in a lot of headaches from accidentally erased mods, unlike modding threads where all posts remain viewable no matter what you do.

In its current form, I do not see what benefits modding v2 brings. I feel like the modding format should have been kept the same, but upon posting timestamps in a post the website would ask what type of point it is "praise, suggestion, problem, none". "None" would be for supplementary timestamps in a specific point, such as examples or comparisons. These would then be viewable on the top timeline, and posting points mentioned before would notify the modder similar to how it currently does in modding v2.


The fact that modders and mappers were still choosing to use v1 shows that v2 is being forced too soon without obvious benefits.
and now that's been taken away from us.
great.


Also, the hype train encourages circlejerk abuse by encouraging mappers to just ask a bunch of friends to praise it instead of actually getting modder feedback or shooting their well earned stars at a mapset to get it to the 12 minimum for rankability

EDIT 99:

my christmas wish:
make it possible to view bookmarked threads and watched maps together on the same page.

I personally detest email notifications and always use the bookmarks page on the current website to keep up with both map threads and other threads such as modding queues I stalk.

so being able to still view these both in one place like was possible before v2 came would be nice.

EDIT 100:
also
modv2 is completely fucked on the mobile page, why is there even a mobile page if the layout gets so badly messed up? it's much easier to zoom into the desktop version of the page than read this mess.
lol


EDIT 101:

after some further experience in modding v2:

When a mapper responds, they mark a point as resolved.
If a modder doesnt think it's resolved, it gets reopened.
This cycle can currently continue endlessly if mapper and modder disagree.
there should be a feature that after, say, 3 resolved/reopened posts between a mapper and a modder, it would be required for a third opinion, that of a second modder, to be posted for the point to be resolved again. This would encourage further community discussion and can prevent one modder and mapper from arguing endlessly over something they disagree upon. Reopening the thread by the same initial modder would be disabled after the third time.