I don't get it, every time a map is unique people hate it, but people also hate the "same" maps all the time?
I can't play the map but I think it is unfair. I like the map.

Gokateigo if cancerous people like you who can't even play the map weren't allowed to vote and appear in the "user rating", then we'd see a way more positive one. Using NF shouldn't allow people to rate the map IMHO.

Also for the BN who veto'd, I think the only thing that made this map hard (read unplayable cause that's the word he used) was the AR, which is now fixed and makes the map easier to read, and thus easier to play. I don't get what's wrong with the way he mapped this, and you all can't play neither Monstrata's style of mapping metal, nor Mazzerin's style of mapping metal, so you should stop comparing the two.

GL Monstrata

Kynan wrote:

Gokateigo if cancerous people like you who can't even play the map weren't allowed to vote and appear in the "user rating", then we'd see a way more positive one. Using NF shouldn't allow people to rate the map IMHO.

I can play the map ht, ok ht/nomod are different things but it doesn't change the map + I forgot to vote 1 star
(and why am I cancerous I just gave my opinion and answered to salty guys)

that monstrata salt

good map tho

Gokateigo wrote:

Kynan wrote:

Gokateigo if cancerous people like you who can't even play the map weren't allowed to vote and appear in the "user rating", then we'd see a way more positive one. Using NF shouldn't allow people to rate the map IMHO.

I can play the map ht, ok ht/nomod are different things but it doesn't change the map + I forgot to vote 1 star
(and why am I cancerous I just gave my opinion and answered to salty guys)

Because of the way you keep repeating that the map is trash and that MAZZERIN THE GOD makes better metal maps.
They have different mapping styles ffs let him be.

Gokateigo wrote:

(and why am I cancerous I just gave my opinion and answered to salty guys)

:thinking:

i actually like this map, it represents the song pretty well!

good job monstrata

Kynan wrote:

Gokateigo wrote:

I can play the map ht, ok ht/nomod are different things but it doesn't change the map + I forgot to vote 1 star
(and why am I cancerous I just gave my opinion and answered to salty guys)

Because of the way you keep repeating that the map is trash and that MAZZERIN THE GOD makes better metal maps.
They have different mapping styles ffs let him be.

I didn't say Mazzerin was a god, I said his style fits very well to metal, not like this trash style. I won't change my mind, stop talking about that

Gokateigo wrote:

not like this trash style.

:thonkang: looks like this is a lost case, time to move on boyz

Gokateigo wrote:

I won't change my mind, stop talking about that

why are you even talking in the thread then LOL get the fuck out your "opinion" doesn't matter here

Gokateigo wrote:

I won't change my mind, stop talking about that

Instead of fucking around how about you actually make a mod and help improve the map instead of stating "I don't like it and you can't refute me because it's my opinion > : (( ( (( ("

Gokateigo wrote:

I didn't say Mazzerin was a god, I said his style fits very well to metal, not like this trash style. I won't change my mind, stop talking about that

your mind is garbage so stfu

[ Space ] wrote:

Gokateigo wrote:

I won't change my mind, stop talking about that

Instead of fucking around how about you actually make a mod and help improve the map instead of stating "I don't like it and you can't refute me because it's my opinion > : (( ( (( ("

Already modded it, waiting for answers

Linada wrote:

why are you even talking in the thread then LOL get the fuck out your "opinion" doesn't matter here

I tought you were in my blacklist

Kynan wrote:

looks like this is a lost case, time to move on boyz

You can't say it's a good style, it's ugly on purpose and as I said (too much times tbh but it looks like you love monstrata's dick) Mazz's maps aren't ugly (most of the time) and it fits to "ugly" songs. Now if you can't understand what I am saying just stfu

zzzzzz someone lock this thread until someone actually relevant has anything to say pls.

Gokateigo wrote:

You can't say it's a good style, it's ugly on purpose stfu

E X A C T L Y, you don't seem to understand that this is what monstrata wants, he made it ugly to fit the song, and him being able to do that when we know he can map other maps much 'cleaner' shows that this can't just be monstrata being lazy.

This map honestly looks ugly, and that's why I like it, it is the whole point of the map, and you honestly can't accept that, so just stop speaking please because it will get you nothing but hate from other people on this thread.

A map can be well made and ugly at the same time

if you have nothing constructive to say - say nothing.

will start handing out large silences to people who don't understand this. contribute meaningfully to the map by helping out instead of arguing over each other's opinions plz

Honestly, can't pass the map but from playing with NF I really enjoyed it. It's pretty obvious why it's mapped so differently, and I think song representation is more important than aesthetics.

Small possible problems I noticed:
-02:56:316 (1) - This is touching the health bar slightly
-04:30:366 (3,4,5,6) - This felt odd, there's no major difference in anything for 04:30:610 (4) to be emphasized with higher spacing

I don't see why this wouldn't be rankable, since it accurately represents the song. Besides, only mapping in the usual 'safe' way (or pp mapping, with tv size songs) is going to result in player burnout and tons of the same map with different songs behind them.

Different mappers have different interpretations. This is a question about intepretation, not style. Clearly alien is not my regular mapping style. Mazzerin interprets metal songs through attention to patterning, spacing shifts, harsh flows. I interpret the metal section through harsh slider designs and aesthetics, however if you can play the map, you'll notice the flow is largely similar to my regular maps. Quite a few top players have agreed that it flows perfectly well and simply looks bad, but the entire premise is that through using slider leniency, and being able to recognise when you can use sliderball leniency, the ugly sliders will still give a clean movement that is predictable and straightforward.

If you replaced Mazzerin's maps with an mp3 for an intense piano song like iets say https://osu.ppy.sh/s/383094 or some other Louis Cyphre map, Mazzerin's map would still fit very well. This is because Mazzerin's aesthetics is not tied to the song, nor do his placements or choices of flow. Promethean Kings, Apparition, all these maps are part of Mazzerin's style of mapping. They are not bound only to the song he is mapping. They are habits and mapping philosophies, such as using progressively increasing/decreasing spaced streams, cross screen kicksliders that are pointed at each other's slider heads, using stationary streams that increase in spacing and angle, using circular and slider-converted streams etc...

If you want to analyze my map, you need to recognize that the slider aesthetic isn't a "style" and not something you can compare with other "styles". It's an intepretation of the song, and is therefore bound to the song. Replace the mp3 with another song of the same genre, and it won't work anymore. The ugly sliders work well because there is a juxtaposition to a more beautiful section later. If there was no beautiful section later, then there'd be nothing really to juxtapose the aesthetics. Then we'd have an issue because the map is only being ugly. There is much more at play here, and you should realize that with 50 odd pages of discussion your argument needs to be exceptional it you want it to be something that hasn't already been said a hundred times before.

In any case, I will reply to your mod later, for now, just sit back and farm some of my pp maps. There is no need to continue a pointless discussion when I've already promised a response to what actually matters.

Why these sliders look like some shit Larto would put in his maps



jk the map plays fine. Also kudos to you if you recognize the painful beatmap I screenshotted from

It's possible to fc... with touchscreen and two tablets hehehe.

Monstrata wrote:

The ugly sliders work well because there is a juxtaposition to a more beautiful section later. If there was no beautiful section later, then there'd be nothing really to juxtapose the aesthetics.

This right here is why this map should be ranked. The mapping and the song bring something special to the table that really has not been done before. This map is something far out there in terms of uniqueness and it is important that a gem such as this gets the recognition it deserves. Honestly? I am disappointed that this map had far too much resistance for no well explained reason.

ok last post in this thread since all of you can't understand my point and I'm bored of repeating the same thing everything

• I know this map is made to be ugly, I know a lot of people like it (even if the user rating says the opposite but whatever), I know Monstrata knows what he's doing with the editor so stop saying I'm an ignorant because you're wrong
  
  BUT

1. The gimmick is pushed too far sometimes, especially at the kickslider part : it can be ugly and good at the same time, I've already explained it in my mod, i won't say it again (fuck I'm lazy)
2. The gimmick isn't used in some ugly parts, I looked at the map and modded it with the gimmick in head, sometimes the map has good patterns (perfect angles, flows perfectly...) in ugly parts like these perfect pentagons here 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - or the squares here 03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - it's not a really ugly part with the vocals etc, but it uses the same instruments + the high sound in the bg literally fuck your ears
3. The gimmick is a bit useless/wrong : Ok, contrast, bla bla bla, I know, but the contrast is just obvious with the difficulty 8*/4* not obvious enough ? ok, there are a few ways to map metal like Mazzerin's style "omg you suck Mazz's dick kys" first : fuck you and it was an example, Maakeli is also a good metal mapper, pishi is a good metal mapper, Sayaka is a good metal mapper (restricted for shit but we're not here to talk about that). You get my point, there are other ways to map this and they're all better
4. Some jumps are weird and uncomfortable : "it's the point of the map lol" It can be ugly and comfortable, some jumps look like normal patterns (triangles, stars,...) but with extended ds for spacing emphasis, back and forths/really sharp angles/wide angles are better than this imo and can be ugly
5. Some patterns have nosense spacing : thinking especially about these 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the DS goes at weird spots, it's just 2 (maybe 3) repeated sounds so the ds shouldn't change that much (+ 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this one is just too spaced)
   I'm also thinking about this one 04:33:754 (1) - this part was just 2 sliders 1/2 for stop stop and it's reverse sliders at a random point

Ok this is literally my mod but extended, but now eveything is justified I guess (inb4 some fanboy saying I'm totally wrong) (I'll only answer to real posts now, not the usual "lol your opinion doesn't matter here")

Gokateigo wrote:

Gasai wrote:

If you're going to bubble or veto it, give good reasons that the mapper can actually consider and implement to make the map better and that 'better' being the 'better' in your opinion and not necessarily the thousands of people playing the game.

osu! is a community based game, if a huge part the community doesn't like a map (obvious in this cse, seiously look at the user rating) the map shouldn't be ranked, especially when it uses such a controversial mapping

A huge part of the community doesn't have the skill required to even play this map, nor do most have enough mapping knowledge to grasp an understanding of what is exactly wrong with this map.

AAAAH you answered while I was typing fuck
Finally a good explanation and not fanboys salt
I'm ok with it, ok I really don't like it and still disagree but it's explained correctly so meh
thanks for answering my mod
I don't farm your maps, I dislike them for being pp (I hate you ♥)

i don't care about any of this drama but i think there's an aesthetic inconsistency you might consider changing unless it was intentional.

00:17:766 and 01:22:624 are obviously supposed to be similar with the whole guitar going ham and the vocals increasing in intensity, however in the first section you start using "ugly" 1/2 sliders way sooner than you do in the second section. 00:23:986 (5) Here is the first to show that some kind of aesthetic change is gonna start and then after that the last slider in every group of four is ugly.

01:30:362 (4) - but here you waited until pretty far into the section to start making slightly ugly sliders to indicate the change again, maybe cause the section itself is longer before the vocals start yelling again? i dunno, just something i thought i'd ask about. don't mind me if it was intentional/ you've already brought it up, but you could probably start doing slightly ugly ones 01:27:148 (5) here or something.

but yeah, good luck with... all this. my opinion on this map has changed significantly since i voted it a 1/10 almost a year ago

Gokateigo wrote:

The gimmick isn't used in some ugly parts, I looked at the map and modded it with the gimmick in head, sometimes the map has good patterns (perfect angles, flows perfectly...) in ugly parts like these perfect pentagons here 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - or the squares here 03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - it's not a really ugly part with the vocals etc, but it uses the same instruments + the high sound in the bg literally fuck your ears

Not here to reply for monstrata but...

03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - This is not an ugly part??? The percussion is gone from this section and the only thing that is playing is a simple (bass?) guitar. If you are trying to compare the two, I think 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - is a fast build up but with percussion a guitar backing up the singer, the two parts are not alike. Monstrata said he was going to change it to something else anyway.

Thought I was in a HW map topic for a second there
GL with the map my boi, I can take a look in a bit if u care about another opinion

wow i saw a dead Brayan


Map concept is nothing special and this can be ranked, see you later bob

the map is fun, just rank it fags

Opsi wrote:

There are very few maps (if there even are) like Alien, but tell me; is there another song like Alien? It's a fucking mess of exorcised screams that not even Mazzerin would map, that suddenly cuts out to a loli singing about...wanting to be kidnapped by an alien...? (whattheactualfuck.jpeg)

Experimental metal often has a lot of unpredictable rhythms to it. They're usually a sort of "controlled chaos" and not completely random, but if you think this is extremely cacophonous then I'd advise you to step outside of your musical comfort zone a bit.

Also, if I remember correctly, the "winny upload" bit refers to some sort of controversy in Japan regarding piracy.

I shouldnt be typing here as i'm not that much of an experienced mapper (not even close), but whatever. I still have an opinion

This map should be ranked, as it is another way of changing mapping. This is a different approach to the extremely good visuals we are trying to emphasize more into lately, there is no need to have cute sliders in every single song if the song is a experimental metal one. Having variety is never bad at all. If you dont like a map it is as simple as not playing it.

The excuse I've seen of "the sliders look like ones a new mapper would do" kinda falls apart, as they are executed logically and, what's more important in this community, consistently.

The map is well structured, as the more Chaotic part has more chaotic visuals and the "cuter" part has more pleasing ones, so the concept Monstrata is trying to show is pretty clear after all. I would complain about some 1/4 sliders being way to hard to be playable (yet i'm only a 55k scrub) in the chaotic parts.

i say just let the map through lol, its not like anyone's going to play it more than once anyways and we'll just see a few cool passes on it. Just get it over with and let it die

Monstrata wrote:

@Kagetsu: A lot of analysis and discussion has gone into this map's patterning and playability so it is a disservice to everyone here if you just give a blanket statement that it's "unplayable" without giving specifics for me to explain to you.

please note that i mentioned the loved section with the sole purpose of proving that there was no decent scores on this map, i consider a map playable when the player can get 98% or more acc. this was definitely not the case.
if you want a deeper explanation about why the playability of this map is bad, i would have to say that it's a sum of things: first would be the editor limitations, you've stated that there are players who are capable of playing maps around this speed, the fact that you're not considering, though, is that they do it with dt, where you can play at higher ar and od. i'm remarking these two because i believe they have a lot to do with the map playablity. the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns. it's debatable whether or not we should choose upon not the best way of making things because of the editor limitations, you might have your own opinion as well as i can have mine.
another point: we all know this a complex song, and as such, it will always tend to be harder to play than common songs, what i don't understand though, is why you're using such a bad transitions when changing the bpm, for example, on 02:55:471 - this section, the bpm increases by 14 units yet you decided to use full screen jumps, which aren't bad in paper, because the music is strong enough to support jumps, but the transition is just unpredictable. you could've been considered a smoother way to put these sections together, by using less spacing/pasive objects or whatnot.
i consider this specific pattern 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - as near to impossible to hit (unless you're using touchscreen), the distance is just too much and the rotations aren't the best either, you might argue that you're using "uncomfortable movement" in order to accentuate the music, but the truth is that the higher the bpm is, the less you feel the difference between awkward and non-awkward movements, this is because the bpm makes all the beats awkward to play already. the worst transition here would be 02:55:787 (2) - to 02:55:893 (1) - especially because the rotation changes on 02:55:893 (1) - which makes it very hard to hit. you might want to move 02:55:999 (2) - somewhere to the up side of the screen in order to "fix" that.
in any case, the distance is still something debatable, again, not because it isn't supported by the music, but rather because it's unplayable. i'm pretty sure there's no one that can consistently hit this pattern 3 times in a row when going throughout the entire map, otherwise prove me wrong.

i believe unplayable maps doesn't fit the ranked section, and that's why tag4 maps were moved to the loved one. believe it or not, your map shares some similarities with tag4 maps: difficult patterns, rough movements, high spaced objects combined with a very high object density in the screen (this due to low ar considering how fast the bpm is) etc.
now i'm not saying that mapping this song is completely impossible, but it would need a complete rework in order to make it playable, because nerfing some patterns would end up unbalancing the map.

about how countering the veto, i honestly think that we won''t reach an agreement, i'm just using my right to vote about whether or not this map should be qualified, i've decided upon no. the veto system is nothing more than a voting system after all.

Kagetsu wrote:

the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns.

Isn't the map currently AR10? That's what it says for the current pending version lol.
Hopefully I'm not taking your statement out of context.

kobolddragon wrote:

Kagetsu wrote:

the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns.

Isn't the map currently AR10? That's what it says for the current pending version lol.
Hopefully I'm not taking your statement out of context.

He's saying that the liminations of the editor (AR 10) is the problem.

kobolddragon wrote:

Kagetsu wrote:

the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns.

Isn't the map currently AR10? That's what it says for the current pending version lol.
Hopefully I'm not taking your statement out of context.

in terms of approach rate, playing a 190 bpm 8.5 ar map with dt would be the same as a 285 bpm map with ar 10. that's what i meant to say.

@Kagetsu I understand the points you are making. However, this will be brought up time and time again because it is the counter-argument to this. It feels like your definitions aren't taking in other ranked maps into account. People will say Mazzerin, or Hollow Wings, etc. but because it is true. The main idea behind every single point you make is playability

Kagetsu wrote:

i'm remarking these two because i believe they have a lot to do with the map playablity.

but the transition is just unpredictable.


not because it isn't supported by the music, but rather because it's unplayable.


i believe unplayable maps doesn't fit the ranked section,


need a complete rework in order to make it playable,

Playability is certainly something that should be taken into consideration, however as long as it is not unreasonable a map can be, for all purposes, unplayable. There are many examples of unplayable maps that should be and are ranked and I don't see why this is an exception.

Also the AR issue shows up in other high bpm maps too, does it not?

comparing this map to tag4 is pretty childish, please dont use massive exaggerations to help make a point, your point should be able to stand on its own if its valid

Kagetsu wrote:

please note that i mentioned the loved section with the sole purpose of proving that there was no decent scores on this map, i consider a map playable when the player can get 98% or more acc. this was definitely not the case.
if you want a deeper explanation about why the playability of this map is bad, i would have to say that it's a sum of things: first would be the editor limitations, you've stated that there are players who are capable of playing maps around this speed, the fact that you're not considering, though, is that they do it with dt, where you can play at higher ar and od. i'm remarking these two because i believe they have a lot to do with the map playablity. the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns. it's debatable whether or not we should choose upon not the best way of making things because of the editor limitations, you might have your own opinion as well as i can have mine.

i think you're severely underestimating the reading capability of players, and just because most maps at this bpm with dt end up with higher ar doesn't necessarily make those comfortable to read either
sure, its ar10 with 285 bpm, but most of that is 1/2s, and there are only a few sections with 1/4s which are quite natural to play
the map is very straightforward with most of its stuff, so i think something like this doesn't need any higher ar

the od also seems fine to me while playing the map
coming from the same point, there aren't that many 1/4s, and i haven't experienced any problems with notelocking

Kagetsu wrote:

another point: we all know this a complex song, and as such, it will always tend to be harder to play than common songs, what i don't understand though, is why you're using such a bad transitions when changing the bpm, for example, on 02:55:471 - this section, the bpm increases by 14 units yet you decided to use full screen jumps, which aren't bad in paper, because the music is strong enough to support jumps, but the transition is just unpredictable. you could've been considered a smoother way to put these sections together, by using less spacing/pasive objects or whatnot.
i consider this specific pattern 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - as near to impossible to hit (unless you're using touchscreen), the distance is just too much and the rotations aren't the best either, you might argue that you're using "uncomfortable movement" in order to accentuate the music, but the truth is that the higher the bpm is, the less you feel the difference between awkward and non-awkward movements, this is because the bpm makes all the beats awkward to play already. the worst transition here would be 02:55:787 (2) - to 02:55:893 (1) - especially because the rotation changes on 02:55:893 (1) - which makes it very hard to hit. you might want to move 02:55:999 (2) - somewhere to the up side of the screen in order to "fix" that.
in any case, the distance is still something debatable, again, not because it isn't supported by the music, but rather because it's unplayable. i'm pretty sure there's no one that can consistently hit this pattern 3 times in a row when going throughout the entire map, otherwise prove me wrong.

ok so i'll leave the transition into the jumps for monstrata to respond to, but these jumps are far from impossible, i've even hit them myself as a 4 digit player, nowhere near the skill level of, say, the top 50
example: http://puu.sh/wPQQf/5ffdeb6a64.osr (not my best run on the map but anyway they're not as bad as you say)

also about the part with hitting the pattern 3 times in a row, that's setting an arbitrarily high standard, and you might as well be asking someone to perform their top play 3 times in a row otherwise they should be considered cheating
actually i'd probably even consider hitting these jumps 3 times in a row quite doable from several players (some that come to mind are emilia, cookiezi, vaxei, rafis, bubbleman, etc )

so yea personally i seriously dont consider playability an issue with this

Kagetsu wrote:

i believe unplayable maps doesn't fit the ranked section, and that's why tag4 maps were moved to the loved one. believe it or not, your map shares some similarities with tag4 maps: difficult patterns, rough movements, high spaced objects combined with a very high object density in the screen (this due to low ar considering how fast the bpm is) etc.
now i'm not saying that mapping this song is completely impossible, but it would need a complete rework in order to make it playable, because nerfing some patterns would end up unbalancing the map.

about how countering the veto, i honestly think that we won''t reach an agreement, i'm just using my right to vote about whether or not this map should be qualified, i've decided upon no. the veto system is nothing more than a voting system after all.

the movement is actually smoother than you may expect, the aesthetics seem very rough, but while actually playing through it your movement simplifies itself quite a bit and some of it is even comfortable
the map is hard, yes, but i believe the aesthetics and movement match the song very well, and the movement is nothing particularly awkward




anyway yea i just wanted to throw my two cents in since i dont agree with this reasoning for a veto
not sure if it'll convince you or not but hopefully you'll reconsider a bit

Nonsense posts prior to Ephemeral's warning have been deleted from the thread. Please refrain from doing it again.

A short reminder from our lord and savior:

Ephemeral wrote:

if you have nothing constructive to say - say nothing.

will start handing out large silences to people who don't understand this. contribute meaningfully to the map by helping out instead of arguing over each other's opinions plz

Thank you!