Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Mentai wrote:

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

brain damage wrote:

my name is what im getting from you guys here

Gokateigo wrote:

This map sucks tbh, you shitmapped a huge part because you think metal is disgusting

Gokateigo wrote:

If you make a contrast with beautiful/ugly mapping you obviously think one part is ugly and the other one is beautiful, seems obvious. He can make a contrast with difficulty, like Mazzerin did with PK, it'll be way better than this

Gokateigo wrote:

He can make a contrast with difficulty, like Mazzerin

Linada wrote:

Gokateigo wrote:

He can make a contrast with difficulty, like Mazzerin

i know you love Mazzerin a lot but the mapper here is Monstrata and not Mazzerin, why would he map like him.

Gokateigo wrote:

If you make a contrast with beautiful/ugly mapping you obviously think one part is ugly and the other one is beautiful, seems obvious.

Gokateigo wrote:

my opinion

This map sucks tbh, you shitmapped a huge part because you think metal is disgusting, Mazzerin maps death metal and thinks song representation is more important than aesthetics. His maps are NOT ugly af, they are a bit ugly sometimes (with really ugly sounds, not everything) but his style fits very well to metal, you should map something similar to his style in the "ugly" part and map ugly sliders when they are in the middle of the calm part because you can't change your style for 2 objects. If you map something like this I'll bee happy if it's ranked, it's just a random shit map atm for me

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Sinnoh wrote:

why not just convert the map to ctb then rank and call it a day

M a r v o l l o wrote:

I think everyone can make mistake, so imo Kagetsu should remove his veto because he didn't provide any really valid reason. Sad that I amn't a member of BNG, I would nominate this. And yeah, 800th post hooray

Seni wrote:

You don't have to be a chef to know the dish is bad.

Monstrata wrote:

fufu- wrote:

00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) no pLEASE bring back the old jumps these pentagons are so hard to play and snap to

I have a possible alternative in mind for it, i'll push a quick update tomorrow though after confirming with some players. I like how it plays currently because its arranged in a way where its possible for players to try alternating it instead of single tapping, but essentially the structure is set up to cause really fast counterclockwise flowing movements that break down into rotating/tornado based jumps afterwards.

Kagetsu wrote:

i'm vetoing this because i think it doesn't fit the ranked section, this map has proven to be unplayable while being in the loved section and it's pretty clear that even though people can pass it, its playability is far from being acceptable.

Qapitol wrote:

Hi guys, I'm just gonna leave this here.



DISCLAIMER I DONT ACTUALLY KNOW IF THIS IS UNRANKABLE I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT THAT THE FILE IS STRETCHED IN MULTIPLE PLACES.

pls no hate mnstrato ily

1. 00:28:922 (1,2,3,4) - this little square kinda kills the cursor speed built up previously and aesthetically feels out of place, I think an irregular shape with a bit more spacing (same movement is fine) would be better.
   
2. 00:32:760 (3) - I don't see much reason for this to be ctrl+Gd, this will be prone to confuse players causing a late hit, please keep in mind that with how the game works right now you need to hit this slider a bit early otherwise it will reach the first repeat and cause a sliderbreak even if it's within the hit window (first repeat is 54ms after the start so with this OD that means you'd break if you hit basically anything later than a 300).
   
3. 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - this doesn't fit at all imo, you theme almost all sliders "ugly" and with uneven spacings but this a "perfect shape", I think this comes from you being used to mapping like this (not saying it's a bad thing) but imo this pattern is out of place here, I'd personally go with something more in tone with the map's theme and difficulty, check this for an idea: https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/HotOpulentGosling And more importantly than aesthetics, using a cursor-snap-based small jump section is a great setup for the next big one here 00:40:385 (2) - your current pattern is based on constant circle movement so it doesn't transition very well.
   
4. 00:40:385 (2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - I think you could improve this flow to be less awkward but it's not terrible so I wont go into detail unless requested.
   
5. 01:01:258 (4,5,6,1) - this almost square-like flow is one of the most awkward in the whole map, this comes after a whole section of acute angled jumps, I think this can be improved, first thing that comes to mind would be 01:01:258 (4) - on x:163 y:326, 01:01:366 (5) - on x:319 y:233, 01:01:473 (6) - on x:30 y:189 and 01:01:580 (1) - a bit closer to 01:01:794 (3) - , the reduced spacing from 6 to 1 increses the emphasis of the back and forths making them more powerful.
   
6. 02:25:494 (1,2,3,4,5) - I disagree with this shape, aesthetics aside, I don't see how this would play better than angled jumps and they would fit better imo.

Gasai wrote:

If you're going to bubble or veto it, give good reasons that the mapper can actually consider and implement to make the map better and that 'better' being the 'better' in your opinion and not necessarily the thousands of people playing the game.

Gokateigo wrote:

Gasai wrote:

If you're going to bubble or veto it, give good reasons that the mapper can actually consider and implement to make the map better and that 'better' being the 'better' in your opinion and not necessarily the thousands of people playing the game.

osu! is a community based game, if a huge part the community doesn't like a map (obvious in this cse, seiously look at the user rating) the map shouldn't be ranked, especially when it uses such a controversial mapping

Monstrata wrote:

That said, lets await Kagetsu's reply now and give this thread a break. Thanks everyone for participating

Gokateigo wrote:

osu! is a community based game, if a huge part the community doesn't like a map (obvious in this cse, seiously look at the user rating) the map shouldn't be ranked, especially when it uses such a controversial mapping

1. 01:40:844 (2) - Overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin.
2. 01:58:499 (1) - Shouldn't be a normal finish?
3. 02:27:195 (1,2,3,4) - I really dislike how those kick sliders are overlapped by the previous ones. 1 also slightly overlaps 3 and 2 overlaps 4 as well. I understand you probably did that on purpose, but it's hardly sightreadable and more confusing than anything when you could have made it easier to read just like 02:28:885 (1,2,3,4) - .
4. 02:37:902 (2,3,4) - Slightly overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin.
5. 02:40:244 (2) - Slightly overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin.
6. 02:56:316 (1) - Slightly overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin.
7. 02:56:786 (1) - Slighlty overlapped by the score nulbers with the default skin.
8. 04:22:012 (2) - Almost under the HP bar grr

1. I really dislike when objects are put just next to the bottom border of the screen because 1. it's not that comfortable to play 2. it's sometime overlapped by the little accuracy bar. Here's a list of the objects placed way too close to the bottom border of the screen, moving them some grids up should do the trick, it's not like you have to care much about the aesthetics of the map xp:
   
   
   1. 00:51:250 (1) -
   2. 00:56:007 (3,5,1) -
   3. 00:59:022 (1) -
   4. 01:01:794 (3,5) -
   5. 01:31:862 (3) -
   6. 01:33:991 (1) -
   7. 01:35:058 (3) -
   8. 01:58:499 (1) -
   9. 04:45:311 (1) -

UndeadCapulet wrote:

this is sick

Liiraye wrote:

I love maps that go from really fast to really slow, especially towards the end.

Even though this is too hard for me to enjoy, I think arguing that the easy part would somehow arbitrarily make the map bad is silly. Having your only point being 6* would be better than 8* doesn't help much. That could go for ANY hard map out there, it doesn't say much about the map itself.

eeezzzeee wrote:

ya. i like the contrasting aesthetics of this map btw

bbj0920 wrote:

what the actual fuck is this

nice concept though

Pereira006 wrote:

we did make more ugly, Shame question where you from ?

irc

20:36 Pereira006: LET'S DO THUS
20:37 *Monstrata is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/978026 Maximum the Hormone - A-L-I-E-N [Stop! Stop Winny Upload!!]]
20:37 Monstrata: 8.5 stars lmaooo
20:37 Monstrata: ahahahah
20:40 Pereira006: 00:48:737 (2) - that ugly lol
20:40 Monstrata: xD
20:40 Monstrata: make it uglier?
20:41 Pereira006: yes like this 00:42:090 (3) -
20:41 Pereira006: pls
20:41 Monstrata: looool
20:41 Monstrata: oka
20:41 Monstrata: y
20:41 Monstrata: :DD
20:43 Monstrata: http://puu.sh/pzPLu.jpg
20:43 Monstrata: am i doing this right?!
20:43 Pereira006: GOOD JOB
20:43 Pereira006: 01:41:058 (3) - i suprise you didn't hat NC
20:43 Pereira006: WHY ?!"
20:44 Monstrata: oh
20:44 Monstrata: right
20:44 Monstrata: omg
20:44 Pereira006: TELL ME
20:44 Monstrata: do you think i should NC 01:41:272 (5) - too?
20:44 Monstrata: xD
20:44 Pereira006: 01:46:531 (2) - well BPM change is huge
20:44 Pereira006: NC ?
20:45 Pereira006: i don't know, there lot jump actually you don't NC
20:45 Pereira006: bu you can that NC
20:45 Pereira006: 01:49:654 (4) - ^ same NC
20:46 Monstrata: okay
20:46 Pereira006: well just saying missing NC
20:46 Pereira006: example 01:48:572 (1) orz
20:47 Monstrata: ya
20:47 Monstrata: its hard here cuz of all the bpm shifts
20:47 Pereira006: ya i know
20:48 Pereira006: i wonder other why didn't NC example 01:53:585 (2) -
20:48 Pereira006: but actually that is fit song ...
20:48 Pereira006: i don't know... i wonder other BN see that
20:48 Pereira006: or qat
20:48 Pereira006: OR LOCTAHV
20:51 Pereira006: lmo
20:53 Pereira006: that all
20:53 Monstrata: o lol okay gimme a sec
20:54 Monstrata: bonsai mention 04:37:266 (3) - is too early so im going to get a better offset reset
20:55 Pereira006: ayy
21:00 Monstrata: okay moved it to 04:37:276 -
21:00 Monstrata: +10 ms
21:00 Pereira006: ónly that ?
21:00 Monstrata: should be enough
21:00 Pereira006: ARE U REALYIDFSIFDGBSF SURE =!
21:00 Pereira006: ?!
21:01 Monstrata: and also 04:37:763 (1) -
21:01 Pereira006: lol
21:01 Monstrata: shifted offset for the "stop"
21:01 Monstrata: cuz i told pishifat i wanted to follow instruments
21:01 Monstrata: but i guess for those S T O P sliders i want to follow vocals
21:01 Pereira006: i don't you follow
21:01 Monstrata: the song's vocals and instruments are on different offsets so im just shifting them to vocal offset instead of instrument lol
21:01 Pereira006: but the bpm or offset
21:01 Pereira006: should be snap correct
21:02 Monstrata: yep
21:02 Pereira006: if there beat
21:02 Pereira006: then Beat > allthing
21:02 Pereira006: if no beat, only instrumental
21:02 Monstrata: well, it depends what you want to follow tho xD
21:02 Pereira006: then instrumental > all things
21:02 Monstrata: Vocal beat and Drum beat is like 10 ms different
21:02 Pereira006: ya i know
21:02 Pereira006: but is better if you put snap correct is beat
21:02 Monstrata: but yea 99% of map is following beat/drum beat/ instrument beat
21:02 Pereira006: well if you wanna snap vocal or instrumental
21:03 Pereira006: is risky guidelines
21:03 Monstrata: i just change for 04:33:754 (1) - 04:35:730 (1) - 04:37:763 (1) - 04:39:787 (1) -
21:03 Monstrata: everything else is beat. just those 4 sliders are vocal
21:03 Pereira006: did u update ?

#bubble 1

Enkidu wrote:

pff, got a C, seems good

this is a legendary map, have a kudosu star, this deserves a rank, arguably the best map i've seen in my two long years playing this game : ^)

edit: i'm serious i want to see this ranked lol

CelsiusLK wrote:

well
if the map is intend to be ugly then saying this map is so ugly might be a compliment instead xd

#Mind = Blown

the guitar intro sound like 1/3 for me tho lmao

Desperate-kun wrote:

Grand mapping. This is exactly what my interpretation of this song would look like, except I wouldn't be able to pull it off and finish it. Also everyone complaining about the slidershapes being 'ugly' should calm down and think for a moment. The sliders are just as 'ugly' as the song, both in a good way.

EDIT: Also, please stop saying it goes against any 'standards of quality'.

Spaghetti wrote:

ok what u guys dont understand is that if the map was the same without the ugly sliders you wouldnt be complaining :\

VINXIS wrote:

it was made to look like shit/for aesthetic purposez not to be the ahrdest ranked map u can ask monstrata huimself

if som parts that actualy "boost" sr play lik shit hed proly chang it..

snoverpk wrote:

this entire thread is a bunch of nonsensical arguing
i mean seriously listen to yourself "ewww this map isn't aesthetic where are the qats pls only aesthetic we need triangles"

Broodich wrote:

this map is rly fun i hope it gets ranked

Bonsai wrote:

Hello, I am a completely uninvolved BN who has never M4M'd with any other BN since he became BN and I just wanted to say that I like this map and I hope it gets ranked soon once the timing-issues have been fixed

ok cya guys

Illkryn wrote:

hey guys look at me im in a drama thread

if it was bubbled and you don't like it help it improve?

i think im saying this in every drama thread now but if you don't like it, ignore it.

i looked at the map and i dont rly mind tbh i want it to rank so i can get a phatty pass on it tbh

also all u slow noobs always so emotional over maps u cant play xddd

Spaghetti wrote:

i dont understand why ugly sliders = bad quality it makes no sense lol

captin1 wrote:

i love when people who don't understand anything that they're talking about try and criticize a map for doing what the creator intended. the messy sliders absolutely fit the style of the song, so stop being a bunch of r/osugame shitlords and take a hike. there's no reason to say that sliders done erratically mean that the "map quality" is low, if you think that you're completely shallow.

gl monstrata hope these people leave you alone soon

Haruto wrote:

i feel so sad to monstra who had taken all of his effort for this map.

i still dont understand why this shouldnt be ranked/qualified, there is no unrankable stuff on the map anyway. it is didnt play well like i expect but please respect the mapper ;;

gl monstra, i hope those guys will realize themself and can leave you alone soon

CypCypCyprian wrote:

holy fuck it's actually not bad

Nevo wrote:

Random new mapper strolling by, but I since I don't want to say anything because of my experience I love how you spelled stop at the end Past that I want to see this ranked really bad.

HabiHolic wrote:

Star. good luck!

StarrStyx wrote:

I just love it when ppl say mapping isnt art l o l
How come it isnt? Its a form of creativity after all XD

-kevincela- wrote:

I haven't been following the situation, but the last post just feels so wrong that i somehow have to reply in a way or another.

Sophia wrote:

If I smear you with elephant feces and cover you in duck feathers while singing the lyrics to Pensamento Tipico de Esquerda Caviar wearing a watermelon around my neck in front of a cheering crowd that would be an incredibly creative way of publicly humiliating you and making myself look like a retard and that is in no way art.

Let's just skip this part, which is nonsensical and also quite embarassing.

Sophia wrote:

But let's amuse yourselves that mapping is "art", even for a bit.

Let's pick a dictionary and search for the word "art". Here is the definition, according to Oxford Dictionaries (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... nglish/art):

The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination

What is a map, if not an expression of somebody's imagination and skill? If we also take the fact that mapping is based on music, which is by some considered as the most direct type of art, then we can say that mapping is also an art. This is based on a DEFINITION, so I don't think there's really much to say about this!

Sophia wrote:

Do you think mapping is a form of art which could even one day hope to compare to literature?

Why are you even comparing mapping to literature? It's like comparing engraving to music, they have nothing in common except for the fact they're both art expressions. They have completely different audiences as well as intentions, why the heck would you do this? lol

Sophia wrote:

I'll be looking for the day you mapping the next TV Size Anime Opening by LiSA makes an impact in society or any form of culture in the world in a relevant way.

Even a tv size map can be art, it would probably "low quality" art, but it's an interpretation of a song by somebody nonetheless, thus it is art. Also, do you really think art's purpose is to impact society in any way? Haven't you studied the Aesthetic and Romantic movements, where writers wrote mostly just for themselves, recluding themselves from the outer society? Only some art currents have this purpose of "impacting" someone, it's still mostly something depending from the subject who wants to create that piece of art for his own reasons.

I don't know the context in which this whole discussion has been put into, but whatever conception somebody has on an object can be considered as art, even if we're talking about mapping. Hell, Duchamp went as far as saying that art can be a mere process of selection, instead of creation!

The OT ends here for me, I hope you understood what I meant and have a good day.

melloe wrote:

estellia- wrote:

already missing the point, so many things have been brought up about this map and you're neglecting everything else

people have already time and time again stated the fact that monstrata contradicted himself by saying its a map he made for "lolz" and yet still has serious meaning behind it, and somehow that meaning is some shitty excuse of "philosophy". boi, if it were anyone who prompted the "artsy" argument first it'd be monstrata trying to be edgy and defending himself in the shittiest way possible lol. the fact that people are still defending monstrata is such a joke.

all i'm typing out here is an opinion. as much as i see no value in monstrata's map, perhaps you see no value in my argument. many things to mention about what you said about what i said but i'm seriously too lazy lol. typing out arguments is a pain in the ass, especially when it won't make sense to you anyways

There is value in your argument in that it brings up (and is itself) a kneejerk reaction for many people who encounter something they find unfamiliar or ugly, which is to promptly slap the label "art" on it and declare it pretentious frivolity. Is it a logically sound argument? No, I don't think so.

You also have to understand that when Monstrata waxes poetic in his long posts that he is meming. He's invoking Horace (he literally said "yolo" in his post), he's posting huge walls of quotes from Woody Allen and Confucious, he linked Christina Aguilera's "Beautiful." He actually posted the actual god damn Tatoe song. All these posts are not "Philosophy," they are "Memes." I really don't know how any of you can think he's actually being serious when he says those things.

His map isn't a sternfaced, semantic composition on death and its meaning. That's what he's saying when he wants people to laugh at/with the map. It's kind of a silly map with silly sliders, and the song itself is pretty out there and wild. It's an interesting map for people to say, "haha wow this is kinda weird/cool." That's what he means when he says laugh. He's not hoping that people think it's utter crap and ridicule the living shit out of it.

It's not a complete mess of a map. He's already said that "there's already enough structure involved, both in the consistency of my rhythm choices, and the flow/movement choices between these patterns" and has chosen the sliders to be messy out of everything else. There's method and reasoning that has gone into the mapping, it's not a throwaway joke. Does this mean that the map is above criticism? Of course not. There are things I don't like about it and have brought up that he has seriously responded to, and other criticism that he is still now dealing with where he doesn't even once mention philosophy.

It's okay to criticize the map. But we should begin by viewing the map as what it simply is, which is "messy sliders for a messy song." There's a lot of ways you can go from there. Maybe the sliders are TOO messy, maybe the sliders are messy in the wrong way, maybe they come across as lazy instead of messy. Maybe you disagree with the rhythm choices, the flow, the bad blankets. That's where you should start when you begin to criticize the map, and if Monstrata doesn't respond to your satisfaction then that's fine. But you have to know that if your purpose in criticizing the map is to make it exactly how you want because you don't like so many things about the map and you want him to make the sliders all pretty and the map all neat, then short of him bending over and letting you backseat map for him, you are not going to get what you want.

If you notice the types of criticism he has been responding to and how he has responded to it, you'll notice a pattern. Any stupid, ideological qualms about the map, he has responded with in a way that he feels the response is deserving of: equally ideological, equally vague, equally unspecific. But if you actually get down and talk about, say, red nodes and white nodes, he will respond in the same terms. Same with actual mods.

And "it won't make sense to you anyway?" Seriously? What kind of puerile grade school jab is that? I suppose next you'll be just responding with a short post: "too long didnt read i kno im better then u anyway xd"

In conclusion, can we really all just stop screaming out "ART!! ART!! ART!!" and make some more productive arguments? Because there are more productive arguments to be made. And if Monstrata is uncompromising and doesn't get anywhere with his map, that's on him. But we first have to give the mapper a little room for himself and stop trying to enforce our arbitrary standards on him for every little thing.

FriendoFox wrote:

The map is fun, it just feels.. overmapped at some places
If I was good at modding I'd do it, but I'd probably only be a waste of time on reading, the only thing I don't like is the sliderjump-ish-parts, but that's just me.

appleeaterx wrote:

Changed metadata, fixed another snap issue. The slider designs have been explained in details in the post above, let's see how this goes.
Also, MA´s weird concurrent thing seems like a bug.
Rebubbled #1.

Yuii- wrote:

So, we discussed some patterns, but... we didn't really fix anything, it was most likely pure clarification.

fradiger wrote:

While I don't agree with mappers editing mp3s to push their songs into the marathon category rather than having to map a full spread, complaining about it in this thread will just make you look stupid.

I think the song is perfectly fine, it's music, it has a beat and a melody, and therefore can be adequately mapped. This map meets all of the ranking criteria, isn't over the top ridiculous, and while it does look ugly (which mind you, is the entire purpose of the mapping style that Monstrata chose to use), it is passable (perhaps even fcable).

The best part is it's a consistent group of people who talk crap in these threads. Mappers shouldn't have to put up with this stuff, their map is their opinion, and while everyone is entitled to have one, and you can debate back and forth about them, you can't just blow off the mapper's effort with these stupid backhanded comments like "remap" or "wow this map is BAD." That's like telling an artist that you don't like their painting, and then when they ask why you respond with "it's just bad and I don't like it." If you disagree, please provide some sort of argument that makes sense, and if the mapper tells you to shove it, there's nothing you can do about it. If you don't like the map, don't install it, don't play it. Every day there are probably 3-4 maps ranked that you never even hear about or play, just turn this map into another one of those. It's not like ranking maps like these will destroy the mapping community here in osu!, so don't act like it.

Also the amount of >20k ranked players commenting on the playability of this map is far too high and honestly just silly.

Secretpipe wrote:

That reflects the song's atmosphere at least \:D/

I really liked the second half of it tho

Underforest wrote:

congratz o/
come on, i'm ready for love :3

Edited per request

DualAkira wrote:

Congrats! Fun map.

VINXIS wrote:

This is a really nice map! Congratulations Monstrata!

Rapthorn wrote:

I would post a mod, but I don't have much to contribute with. Map is great, congratulations on qualify!

AustinsGuitar wrote:

love the second part of the map. Maybe a larger spred on the streams at 03:38:822 - and 03:38:822 - .... just think it would add to a equalization of difficulty level and make that part of the map not 100%'able by everyone playing it .-. GREAT MAP KEEP IT UP!

jawns wrote:

Warpyc wrote:

Obviously the biggest issue with this map is that it's made intentionally worse looking, which is why people dislike it so much, its not like they downvote the map because they dislike Monstrata, actually the community loves monstrata or well at least used to. They are simply trying to make their voices heard in this.

It's obvious that this map has an issue so why not fix the issue instead of ignoring it and shrugging it off with some far fetched it fits the music or whatever, honestly how thick headed can you be, learn to accept some feedback, get off your high horse and fix the actual problem with this map.

I think most of us knows that there lies a good map below this, why dont you bring that map forward instead of this heap of drama and hate that you've managed to bring upon yourself.

Why does a map have to be beautiful for it to be good?

hi-mei wrote:

well i think this map is decent to be reanked.
but for real there will be no players to actually play this (or even pass)

DiamondRain wrote:

Pacemaker wrote:

Wtf does that even mean. Collectively hating/liking something does not equal circlejerking. Even good mappers get shit ratings when they fuck up

What it means? It just means that this beatmap was specifically targeted by the osu reddit community to downvote it, if you dont see that, then you're a sad person with low intellect, which you are anyways when I look at your poor attempts to "burn" people. Idk this map, don't really care either but hating on something just because it gets qualified is just stupid. I don't go around and tell people to stop eating tomatoes just because I don't like them.

What's so damn hard in avoiding something you don't like? Your opinion isnt superior to anyone else's so don't act like you're some godsent messias.

RoX2_Fang wrote:

LOVE this song
LOVE this map

Franc[e]sco wrote:

I've played this on ht and hthr, and IMO the jumps don't feel like "tag4" jumps at all. they're fast, sure, but that's simply because of the sheer speed of the song. I think the map is overall pretty enjoyable even if it's incredibly hard

jesse1412 wrote:

Look, this map looks like shit and plays like butter. The jumps flow inexplicably well, the only jumps that don't feel like butter to me are - guess what - the hardest jumps in the map; the reason? I'm no where near good enough to play them. Maybe people should keep that in mind when thinking about this map. Worth noting that I even thing the 1/4 sliders play incredibly well too, everything works fine.

The map plays smooth and looks shit. Nothing about this plays/reads badly, if it's unrankable, it's because of a lack of blankets and other redundant aesthetic things that people care about and maybe a few small issues that need to be forked out with a comb.

Personally I could not give two fucks about aesthetics if it the map plays well.

Also please don't compare this map to anything wings has done, this map plays like a fairly standard map in my opinion; relatively easy to read with natural flowing triangle jumps. It's just ugly as fuck and people seem to think ugly mapping is "20XX never before seen shitmapping".

EDIT: AR9.2 was cooler.

Varqaaa wrote:

The triplets around 02:37:015 (2,3,4) feel overmapped to me. Why put them in there? There's nothing corresponding in the song.

In general though, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The spacing and jerkiness is warranted. Have you listened to the song? It thrashes about and shifts gears in a deliberately grotesque and sporadic manner which the map mirrors effectively. "It's hard" "it's bad" "it's different" "I don't like it"... these are not sufficient grounds to write off a map.

FriendoFox wrote:

The map is fine, why does it have to look good? Aslong as it's fun to play noone should give a shit
I at first thought this map is bad, just to join the hate-train, but I gave it a try myself and this map is actually fun, the only thing I don't like are the "slider-jump-streams", as I like to call them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytqJDAelxRQ

Graf wrote:

Never had more fun on a map.

grumd wrote:

good map when qual???

WISPG_G wrote:

Rank it already, please ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Lilynn wrote:

This is incredible! ^-^

Its what I imagine mapping would be like right now if the general "meta" for mapping evolved in a completely different way than it did.

Its really tempting to just look at this map and say, "Shit map xddxDX; lel" but I honestly can't bring myself to even call this bad, or average.
Its mapped in such a way that it stretches the boundaries of what is creative or innovative and what is just downright...insane
Its probably the most creative map I've ever seen...you look at what you actually did in order to create this map and have it flow in the way it did and it becomes clear that there was intention behind this madness.


Art.

GhostZ wrote:

Really Beautiful Map

Ranked when

Renumi wrote:

GhostZ wrote:

Really Beautiful Map

Ranked when

I agree!

grumd wrote:

psl rank??? wtf

Lunicia wrote:

rank pls thx

MaddaFakka-sama wrote:

Bakari wrote:

Removed a few irrelevant posts.

If you have something informative to post, read through the previous posts first. Otherwise, don't post at all.

You want this ranked as much as we do right? FeelsBadMan

Hobbes2 wrote:

at least now people wont say "but you're dethroning mazzerin!!"

good luck monstrata, I personally really like this map and wish you the best.

Varqaaa wrote:

glad to see Promethean Kings brought this back


Monstrata I'll be honest this is unironically my favorite map you've ever made by a pretty large margin, best of luck with rank

FoxyGrandpa wrote:

Best of luck on this monstrata!

Hopefully it'll go well now that we have a 9* ranked

DanDaBruh wrote:

i really want this ranked

Arphimigon wrote:

Thanks for bringing this back.
Wish the best of luck, hope it pleases everyone (or at least more than before).

(ps: I like ar9.7 because I can see more of the aesthetics, and that is a key factor in the map \ o /
also patterns play more into the playing of the map here rather than individual notes, so lower AR helps in that case)

fastmarkus wrote:

Good luck on trying to get this ranked, it's an ugly beautiful map (if that makes sense)!

The only thing which bothers me is the fact that there should be a complete mapset for this one (come on, it would make a lot of people happy/happier!), since the song is shorter than 5 minutes, even though the current map is not. I read the discussion before, but I believe if this gets a free pass, it will show few flaws on the ranking system.


But I really mean good luck! It would be lovely watching high ranked players play this one

Weriko wrote:

rank it, p l e a s e

Tanomoshii Nekojou wrote:

Please monstrata sama continue making this kind of maps~... <3

Scarlet Evans wrote:

Good luck, if you try to rank it someday!

destroyerwilly wrote:

Don't hate on map, is gud!

-Sh1n1- wrote:

:o let's go!!

Sotarks wrote:

Go go go! *Grabbing popcorns*

M a r v o l l o wrote:

Oh, you are trying to rank it again. Best of luck owo

Gabe wrote:

You can do it!

1597534268 wrote:

dooooooooooo it

osuskrub wrote:

rank this pls

Genjuro wrote:

nice map, i like the concept used where the map is ugly to go with the ugly song, gl with rank

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Illkryn wrote:

fun map gl

Mini Gaunt wrote:

M a r v o l l o wrote:

I think everyone can make mistake, so imo Kagetsu should remove his veto because he didn't provide any really valid reason. Sad that I amn't a member of BNG, I would nominate this. And yeah, 800th post hooray

Yeah, I think this veto was uncalled for especially without any reason given but because Kagetsu thinks it is too hard for top players.
And you got sniped on that 800th post real good.

Mentai wrote:

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Pachiru wrote:

With all the shitmaps we can see nowadays, I think this beatmap can reach the ranked section.
Because the map itself isn't bad, and the contrast between the both part is very well done. If it's how he want to express his point of view about the music, why are you trying to change Monstrata's mind?

Gokateigo wrote:

If you make a contrast with beautiful/ugly mapping you obviously think one part is ugly and the other one is beautiful, seems obvious. He can make a contrast with difficulty, like Mazzerin did with PK, it'll be way better than this

I don't think he wanted to make it ugly, but more something weird, fast and tricky, as the song would be. As I said before, it's his POV on this song.

DeviousPanda wrote:

Gokateigo wrote:

my opinion

This map sucks tbh, you shitmapped a huge part because you think metal is disgusting, Mazzerin maps death metal and thinks song representation is more important than aesthetics. His maps are NOT ugly af, they are a bit ugly sometimes (with really ugly sounds, not everything) but his style fits very well to metal, you should map something similar to his style in the "ugly" part and map ugly sliders when they are in the middle of the calm part because you can't change your style for 2 objects. If you map something like this I'll bee happy if it's ranked, it's just a random shit map atm for me

Telling him to map like mazzerin won't change anything, because this song is quite different to the stuff that mazzerin maps.

Monstrata didn't shitmap this map, he's explained quite clearly why he's mapped it the way this is, so stop tying to get him to change that because that's not going to happen

Ankanogradiel wrote:

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Tbh I never actually hated it but I can sort of understand that.
At first I thought "oh he is just trying to show that he can rank anything" but then I took a closer look.
Monstrata is making an effort to rank this and mapping it like that seems fitting for the music imo. You are all just creatin unnecessary drama.
Didn't find something wrong with the map.
In reality there isn't anything wrong with it than the fact that it's different in a way, and people need some time to digest it.
Unbubling for invalid reasons ain't gonna help either. Further discussion will only lead to more pointless arguments and salt.

AncuL wrote:

i'd say monstrata mapped the first half with such weird shaped sliders is because of how chaotic it is with many chaotic screamos all over the place, and i think monstrata had done it very masterfully. you can't compare this with mazzerin's maps because the songs he is mapping are so much better organized (and also not intended to be chaotic at the first place).. well i mean you don't find the vocalist throwing tantrums on songs mazzerin mapped

Seni wrote:

You don't have to be a chef to know the dish is bad.

but you need to be able to taste it to judge whether it's bad or not. if someone don't like eating vegetables, they would mostly say that every vegetable dishes taste bad

at first, i thought monstrata was just a jerk who can speedrank anything at his own will, but seeing this map further makes me understand how much effort he was putting into this map. good luck on ranking this!

Ampiduxmoe wrote:

i can't say i want this map to be ranked (it's fine for ranked section i guess), but i don't understand why people think this is unrankable.
Can you please say why it is unrankable? because sliders are ugly? well, they are fine because represent music almost perfectly. I can't see anything bad in expressing music through the visuals.
Some say this is unplayable. Oh, really? i had a pass on this map when i was practicing high bpm maps a lot. now im 18k btw (i didn't gain any ranks so i probably had same 4k pp back then). It's nowhere near unplayable, i really don't get this point.
so why it can't be ranked? can someone explain properly?

Gasai wrote:

Sucks that you apparently can't be original in map making. I feel most maps these days are just the same copy and paste patterns on different bpms (awks). I like the concept of a map being mapped based on how the song is. If the song sounds chaotic, I'd like to see a chaotic map. If the song is slow and soothing, I expect a soothing map. So, if you try to stifle mappers' creativity here, then what's going to happen in the future. If you're going to bubble or veto it, give good reasons that the mapper can actually consider and implement to make the map better and that 'better' being the 'better' in your opinion and not necessarily the thousands of people playing the game.

Kynan wrote:

Gokateigo if cancerous people like you who can't even play the map weren't allowed to vote and appear in the "user rating", then we'd see a way more positive one. Using NF shouldn't allow people to rate the map IMHO.

Gokateigo wrote:

Kynan wrote:

Gokateigo if cancerous people like you who can't even play the map weren't allowed to vote and appear in the "user rating", then we'd see a way more positive one. Using NF shouldn't allow people to rate the map IMHO.

I can play the map ht, ok ht/nomod are different things but it doesn't change the map + I forgot to vote 1 star
(and why am I cancerous I just gave my opinion and answered to salty guys)

Gokateigo wrote:

(and why am I cancerous I just gave my opinion and answered to salty guys)

Kynan wrote:

Gokateigo wrote:

I can play the map ht, ok ht/nomod are different things but it doesn't change the map + I forgot to vote 1 star
(and why am I cancerous I just gave my opinion and answered to salty guys)

Because of the way you keep repeating that the map is trash and that MAZZERIN THE GOD makes better metal maps.
They have different mapping styles ffs let him be.

Gokateigo wrote:

not like this trash style.

Gokateigo wrote:

I won't change my mind, stop talking about that

Gokateigo wrote:

I won't change my mind, stop talking about that

Gokateigo wrote:

I didn't say Mazzerin was a god, I said his style fits very well to metal, not like this trash style. I won't change my mind, stop talking about that

[ Space ] wrote:

Gokateigo wrote:

I won't change my mind, stop talking about that

Instead of fucking around how about you actually make a mod and help improve the map instead of stating "I don't like it and you can't refute me because it's my opinion > : (( ( (( ("

Linada wrote:

why are you even talking in the thread then LOL get the fuck out your "opinion" doesn't matter here

Kynan wrote:

looks like this is a lost case, time to move on boyz

Gokateigo wrote:

You can't say it's a good style, it's ugly on purpose stfu

Monstrata wrote:

The ugly sliders work well because there is a juxtaposition to a more beautiful section later. If there was no beautiful section later, then there'd be nothing really to juxtapose the aesthetics.

• I know this map is made to be ugly, I know a lot of people like it (even if the user rating says the opposite but whatever), I know Monstrata knows what he's doing with the editor so stop saying I'm an ignorant because you're wrong
  
  BUT

1. The gimmick is pushed too far sometimes, especially at the kickslider part : it can be ugly and good at the same time, I've already explained it in my mod, i won't say it again (fuck I'm lazy)
2. The gimmick isn't used in some ugly parts, I looked at the map and modded it with the gimmick in head, sometimes the map has good patterns (perfect angles, flows perfectly...) in ugly parts like these perfect pentagons here 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - or the squares here 03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - it's not a really ugly part with the vocals etc, but it uses the same instruments + the high sound in the bg literally fuck your ears
3. The gimmick is a bit useless/wrong : Ok, contrast, bla bla bla, I know, but the contrast is just obvious with the difficulty 8*/4* not obvious enough ? ok, there are a few ways to map metal like Mazzerin's style "omg you suck Mazz's dick kys" first : fuck you and it was an example, Maakeli is also a good metal mapper, pishi is a good metal mapper, Sayaka is a good metal mapper (restricted for shit but we're not here to talk about that). You get my point, there are other ways to map this and they're all better
4. Some jumps are weird and uncomfortable : "it's the point of the map lol" It can be ugly and comfortable, some jumps look like normal patterns (triangles, stars,...) but with extended ds for spacing emphasis, back and forths/really sharp angles/wide angles are better than this imo and can be ugly
5. Some patterns have nosense spacing : thinking especially about these 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the DS goes at weird spots, it's just 2 (maybe 3) repeated sounds so the ds shouldn't change that much (+ 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this one is just too spaced)
   I'm also thinking about this one 04:33:754 (1) - this part was just 2 sliders 1/2 for stop stop and it's reverse sliders at a random point

Gokateigo wrote:

Gasai wrote:

If you're going to bubble or veto it, give good reasons that the mapper can actually consider and implement to make the map better and that 'better' being the 'better' in your opinion and not necessarily the thousands of people playing the game.

osu! is a community based game, if a huge part the community doesn't like a map (obvious in this cse, seiously look at the user rating) the map shouldn't be ranked, especially when it uses such a controversial mapping

Gokateigo wrote:

The gimmick isn't used in some ugly parts, I looked at the map and modded it with the gimmick in head, sometimes the map has good patterns (perfect angles, flows perfectly...) in ugly parts like these perfect pentagons here 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - or the squares here 03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - it's not a really ugly part with the vocals etc, but it uses the same instruments + the high sound in the bg literally fuck your ears

Opsi wrote:

There are very few maps (if there even are) like Alien, but tell me; is there another song like Alien? It's a fucking mess of exorcised screams that not even Mazzerin would map, that suddenly cuts out to a loli singing about...wanting to be kidnapped by an alien...? (whattheactualfuck.jpeg)

Monstrata wrote:

@Kagetsu: A lot of analysis and discussion has gone into this map's patterning and playability so it is a disservice to everyone here if you just give a blanket statement that it's "unplayable" without giving specifics for me to explain to you.

Kagetsu wrote:

the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns.

kobolddragon wrote:

Kagetsu wrote:

the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns.

Isn't the map currently AR10? That's what it says for the current pending version lol.
Hopefully I'm not taking your statement out of context.

kobolddragon wrote:

Kagetsu wrote:

the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns.

Isn't the map currently AR10? That's what it says for the current pending version lol.
Hopefully I'm not taking your statement out of context.

Kagetsu wrote:

i'm remarking these two because i believe they have a lot to do with the map playablity.

but the transition is just unpredictable.


not because it isn't supported by the music, but rather because it's unplayable.


i believe unplayable maps doesn't fit the ranked section,


need a complete rework in order to make it playable,

Kagetsu wrote:

please note that i mentioned the loved section with the sole purpose of proving that there was no decent scores on this map, i consider a map playable when the player can get 98% or more acc. this was definitely not the case.
if you want a deeper explanation about why the playability of this map is bad, i would have to say that it's a sum of things: first would be the editor limitations, you've stated that there are players who are capable of playing maps around this speed, the fact that you're not considering, though, is that they do it with dt, where you can play at higher ar and od. i'm remarking these two because i believe they have a lot to do with the map playablity. the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns. it's debatable whether or not we should choose upon not the best way of making things because of the editor limitations, you might have your own opinion as well as i can have mine.

Kagetsu wrote:

another point: we all know this a complex song, and as such, it will always tend to be harder to play than common songs, what i don't understand though, is why you're using such a bad transitions when changing the bpm, for example, on 02:55:471 - this section, the bpm increases by 14 units yet you decided to use full screen jumps, which aren't bad in paper, because the music is strong enough to support jumps, but the transition is just unpredictable. you could've been considered a smoother way to put these sections together, by using less spacing/pasive objects or whatnot.
i consider this specific pattern 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - as near to impossible to hit (unless you're using touchscreen), the distance is just too much and the rotations aren't the best either, you might argue that you're using "uncomfortable movement" in order to accentuate the music, but the truth is that the higher the bpm is, the less you feel the difference between awkward and non-awkward movements, this is because the bpm makes all the beats awkward to play already. the worst transition here would be 02:55:787 (2) - to 02:55:893 (1) - especially because the rotation changes on 02:55:893 (1) - which makes it very hard to hit. you might want to move 02:55:999 (2) - somewhere to the up side of the screen in order to "fix" that.
in any case, the distance is still something debatable, again, not because it isn't supported by the music, but rather because it's unplayable. i'm pretty sure there's no one that can consistently hit this pattern 3 times in a row when going throughout the entire map, otherwise prove me wrong.

Kagetsu wrote:

i believe unplayable maps doesn't fit the ranked section, and that's why tag4 maps were moved to the loved one. believe it or not, your map shares some similarities with tag4 maps: difficult patterns, rough movements, high spaced objects combined with a very high object density in the screen (this due to low ar considering how fast the bpm is) etc.
now i'm not saying that mapping this song is completely impossible, but it would need a complete rework in order to make it playable, because nerfing some patterns would end up unbalancing the map.

about how countering the veto, i honestly think that we won''t reach an agreement, i'm just using my right to vote about whether or not this map should be qualified, i've decided upon no. the veto system is nothing more than a voting system after all.

Ephemeral wrote:

if you have nothing constructive to say - say nothing.

will start handing out large silences to people who don't understand this. contribute meaningfully to the map by helping out instead of arguing over each other's opinions plz

Kagetsu wrote:

Monstrata wrote:

@Kagetsu: A lot of analysis and discussion has gone into this map's patterning and playability so it is a disservice to everyone here if you just give a blanket statement that it's "unplayable" without giving specifics for me to explain to you.

please note that i mentioned the loved section with the sole purpose of proving that there was no decent scores on this map, i consider a map playable when the player can get 98% or more acc. this was definitely not the case.
if you want a deeper explanation about why the playability of this map is bad, i would have to say that it's a sum of things: first would be the editor limitations, you've stated that there are players who are capable of playing maps around this speed, the fact that you're not considering, though, is that they do it with dt, where you can play at higher ar and od. i'm remarking these two because i believe they have a lot to do with the map playablity. the current ar is far too low. it feels like playing a 190~ bpm map at ar 8.5 which is obviously not the best setting when it comes to smoothly read the patterns. it's debatable whether or not we should choose upon not the best way of making things because of the editor limitations, you might have your own opinion as well as i can have mine. We discussed everything here in the irc.
another point: we all know this a complex song, and as such, it will always tend to be harder to play than common songs, what i don't understand though, is why you're using such a bad transitions when changing the bpm, for example, on 02:55:471 - this section, the bpm increases by 14 units yet you decided to use full screen jumps, which aren't bad in paper, because the music is strong enough to support jumps, but the transition is just unpredictable. you could've been considered a smoother way to put these sections together, by using less spacing/pasive objects or whatnot. This has been analyzed in detail already. Please refer to Hobbes2's analysis of it on: p/6145650. They are indeed playable, and the transition is very much anticipated because the repeating up/downward sliders train the player to move upward on the next circle, and therefore, downward again the circle after.
This is already very smooth.
i consider this specific pattern 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - as near to impossible to hit (unless you're using touchscreen), the distance is just too much and the rotations aren't the best either, you might argue that you're using "uncomfortable movement" in order to accentuate the music, but the truth is that the higher the bpm is, the less you feel the difference between awkward and non-awkward movements, this is because the bpm makes all the beats awkward to play already. the worst transition here would be 02:55:787 (2) - to 02:55:893 (1) - especially because the rotation changes on 02:55:893 (1) - which makes it very hard to hit. you might want to move 02:55:999 (2) - somewhere to the up side of the screen in order to "fix" that. The rotation does not change at all... The jumps are symmetrical so all rotations are mathematically constant... It's the same difficulty as every other jump that's off-center symmetrical.
in any case, the distance is still something debatable, again, not because it isn't supported by the music, but rather because it's unplayable. i'm pretty sure there's no one that can consistently hit this pattern 3 times in a row when going throughout the entire map, otherwise prove me wrong.

i believe unplayable maps doesn't fit the ranked section, and that's why tag4 maps were moved to the loved one. believe it or not, your map shares some similarities with tag4 maps: difficult patterns, rough movements, high spaced objects combined with a very high object density in the screen (this due to low ar considering how fast the bpm is) etc.
now i'm not saying that mapping this song is completely impossible, but it would need a complete rework in order to make it playable, because nerfing some patterns would end up unbalancing the map.

about how countering the veto, i honestly think that we won''t reach an agreement, i'm just using my right to vote about whether or not this map should be qualified, i've decided upon no. the veto system is nothing more than a voting system after all.

Itasha_S13 wrote:

I don't really like jumps on 00:54:726 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - considering 00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - because pattern on 00:54:726 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - doesn't move.. like the jumps are static in the same side of the screen unlike the others that makes a movement, it fits the song. but 00:54:726 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - doesnt do that. I think something like this would fit better and keep the idea of that moving Im talking about to fit the guitar https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8647226 i think the current positioning is fine, and the sections are seprated enough not to feel that related. Also the jumps are quite central, of course a bit to the left, but not to the point where its disorientating or cumbersome to hand positioning.
01:07:259 (1) - check timing on this I think its a bit late It was slightly late, i adjusted a bit for good measure.

Gokateigo wrote:

mod

1. 00:01:621 - this sound fuck my ears, if you want to map ugly things don't do a perfect curve This is all part of establishing a baseline aesthetic. There needs to be something that demonstrates the map is breaking apart as the vocals kick in and the song becomes more clearly harsher.
2. 00:17:766 (1,2,3,4) - nice curves/square for an ugly map ^
3. 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - perfect pentagons are bad for an ugly map ^ Though i ended up fixing it to something else
4. 00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - back and forths fit better here and it'll be moe playable This is also back and forths. and this plays just fine.
   It's just angled a bit to help with transitioning to the side of the screen.
5. 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - ^ No. THis is perfectly fine and they are already back and forths, they just also have movements that go in a singular direction.
6. 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - ^ ^ honestly see nothing wrong.
7. 01:06:090 (1) - this spinner is full of strong sounds I want to use a spinner because people will still play spinners as a fast gameplay element. When you see a spinner, you move really fast, you don't sit idly by so the intensity is kept. I don't want to use streams because the timing is really messed up, and the section doesn't call for intense rhythm because they are preceded by slow sliders.
8. 01:10:902 (1) - ^ ^
9. 01:15:702 (1) - ^ ^
10. 01:23:493 (1) - ctrl g ? + redo the pattern if you do it No, I want the patterns to be asymmetrical. It creates some uneasiness in the object placement that the player is now accustomed to.
11. 01:25:434 (6) - map something ugly here the vocals are different Okay sure, applied to the two below too.
12. 01:27:148 (5) - ^
13. 01:28:862 (5) - ^
14. 01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this (and the other similar patterns) are the worst thing in the map, you can do ugly things which look good, you should do ugly slider-same slider reversed-ugly slider-... it'll look good but it'll be ugly I absolutely disagree then. I think they are the best thing in the map honestly.
15. 01:41:487 (1) - for all this part : nc on bpm changes no thanks, I don't want to NC just for bpm changes. My NC is rhythmic. the bpm changes aren't rhythmic and not predictable so its best to give players a visual rhythm to keep with. The BPM changes are very slight too, mainly due to offset shifts that ended up being recalculated for bpms.
16. 02:02:564 (2,3,4,5) - do a normal jump maybe ? the sounds are strong and this part is pretty calm Nah, I like this arrangement a lot better. it's small, but still forces players to make 90 degree snaps or alternates.
17. 02:25:494 (1,2,3,4,5) - it's not enough spaced, it's just before a fast part I think this is perfectly fine. Just because its before a fast part doesn't mean it should be faster if the atmosphere doesn't really suggest ain increase. really, the song doesn't really explode until the downbeat so creating abuildup effect wont work here, especially when theres a 2/1 gap.
18. 02:51:908 (1,1) - make this possible to hit with a point where you can put your cusor and wait, it's pretty hard at 280bpm No. I want the player to have to move up and down.
19. 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - all the transition snares have a little spacing but this one is cross screen and really hard to play, why ? This is the high point of the map before the transition and there is a lot of build up going into it.
20. 03:07:390 (1) - it reminds me of ugly sliders,... in the calm part It's not... You see sliders like this all the time in regular maps.
21. 03:15:390 (1,2) - clockwise 03:16:390 (3,4,5,6) - counter clockwise, why ? Flow shift...?
22. 03:31:498 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - ^ but goes counter clockwise/clockwise Why is this even important? I'm just switching flows to make things more enjoyable.
23. 03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - "ugly" part callback and it's perfect squares, it should be a bit ugly No.
    This is all part of the winny upload section which is the pretty section. The map is divided by genre please, not by the vocal, which isnt even harsh here.
24. 04:09:581 - this part is singed by the guy of the ugly part, it should be (again) a bit ugly No, for the same reasons as above.
25. 04:32:302 (1,2,3,4) - nc no thanks. why?
26. 04:33:754 (1) - (and similar sliders) no, it's just bad, all the stop stop before are 2 normal sliders, but it changes at a random moment It's not a random moment, its the final verse. im using slider art as a means to emphasyze the lyrics and the song instead of just regular mapping because I think this is a more creative approach.

my opinion

This map sucks tbh, you shitmapped a huge part because you think metal is disgusting, Mazzerin maps death metal and thinks song representation is more important than aesthetics. His maps are NOT ugly af, they are a bit ugly sometimes (with really ugly sounds, not everything) but his style fits very well to metal, you should map something similar to his style in the "ugly" part and map ugly sliders when they are in the middle of the calm part because you can't change your style for 2 objects. If you map something like this I'll bee happy if it's ranked, it's just a random shit map atm for me

gl I guess

Painketsu wrote:

I don't mind this map's aesthetics or concept at all, I think variety is always good and I disagree with the popular idea that a map being clean makes it good.

Gonna do a small flow and cursor movement mod since I feel like it's where the map has most flaws.

1. 00:28:922 (1,2,3,4) - this little square kinda kills the cursor speed built up previously and aesthetically feels out of place, I think an irregular shape with a bit more spacing (same movement is fine) would be better. I gave a better angle from 3>4>5 to offset the movement a bit so there doesn't need to be as much precision in maintaining a linear movement from 4>5
   
2. 00:32:760 (3) - I don't see much reason for this to be ctrl+Gd, this will be prone to confuse players causing a late hit, please keep in mind that with how the game works right now you need to hit this slider a bit early otherwise it will reach the first repeat and cause a sliderbreak even if it's within the hit window (first repeat is 54ms after the start so with this OD that means you'd break if you hit basically anything later than a 300). it's because the previous sliders were really big in spacing. Also the Ctrl+G is better because you are naturally going to move upward playing the slider given the inward flow,
   which helps keep you from breaking.
   
3. 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - this doesn't fit at all imo, you theme almost all sliders "ugly" and with uneven spacings but this a "perfect shape", I think this comes from you being used to mapping like this (not saying it's a bad thing) but imo this pattern is out of place here, I'd personally go with something more in tone with the map's theme and difficulty, check this for an idea: https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/HotOpulentGosling And more importantly than aesthetics, using a cursor-snap-based small jump section is a great setup for the next big one here 00:40:385 (2) - your current pattern is based on constant circle movement so it doesn't transition very well. I fixed it, though its still a pretty pattern because I want to show the visual breaking apart as the voice becomes harsher and tenser.
   
4. 00:40:385 (2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - I think you could improve this flow to be less awkward but it's not terrible so I wont go into detail unless requested. I think its already fine as is/..
   
5. 01:01:258 (4,5,6,1) - this almost square-like flow is one of the most awkward in the whole map, this comes after a whole section of acute angled jumps, I think this can be improved, first thing that comes to mind would be 01:01:258 (4) - on x:163 y:326, 01:01:366 (5) - on x:319 y:233, 01:01:473 (6) - on x:30 y:189 and 01:01:580 (1) - a bit closer to 01:01:794 (3) - , the reduced spacing from 6 to 1 increses the emphasis of the back and forths making them more powerful. Fixed it.
   
6. 02:25:494 (1,2,3,4,5) - I disagree with this shape, aesthetics aside, I don't see how this would play better than angled jumps and they would fit better imo. Its there for juxtaposition with the next section. It just makes the kicksliders in the next section stand out more than they would if i used an ugly pattern. Also i think this arrangement can kind of be alternated and give people a sensation that maybe they can alternate stuff but nope.

I think it's a hard map but it's not unplayable by any means, shouldn't be unrankable imo

CXu wrote:

Have you thought about mapping in a way where each pattern/combo is messy, but how the patterns/combos interact with each other on the playfield is more organized? While the song is indeed, well, "messy", it does have an overarching structure as music mostly do with just how it's structured. Since you're trying to make the patterns ugly to reflect the song, making the patterns the patterns make more organized (?? lolidk) could improve the map aesthetically while still keeping the core idea of ugly vs not ugly. You have some more structural mapping in there already. At least it sounds like a good idea in my head xd

So like idk doing something like this at 01:39:451 (1) -

SPOILER

The slider on its own is still ugly, but it doesn't bleed into the previous sliderpattern, so they can more easily be seen in isolation, if that makes sense.

Just a thought, and it would be quite a bit of work if you were to do this, but I might as well throw the idea out there.

LimePixel wrote:

Honestly, can't pass the map but from playing with NF I really enjoyed it. It's pretty obvious why it's mapped so differently, and I think song representation is more important than aesthetics.

Small possible problems I noticed:
-02:56:316 (1) - This is touching the health bar slightly It's fine to touch the health bar and I think this arrangement is good for symmetry and works well as the final jump location.
-04:30:366 (3,4,5,6) - This felt odd, there's no major difference in anything for 04:30:610 (4) to be emphasized with higher spacing I think its fine, i'm just using a spacing here thats more reflective of the pattern (hexagon) and not really respecting emphasis. It's fine imo cuz i think respecting emphasis everywhere on this section of the map becomes a bit predictable and boring too.

I don't see why this wouldn't be rankable, since it accurately represents the song. Besides, only mapping in the usual 'safe' way (or pp mapping, with tv size songs) is going to result in player burnout and tons of the same map with different songs behind them.

Gokateigo wrote:

ok last post in this thread since all of you can't understand my point and I'm bored of repeating the same thing everything

• I know this map is made to be ugly, I know a lot of people like it (even if the user rating says the opposite but whatever), I know Monstrata knows what he's doing with the editor so stop saying I'm an ignorant because you're wrong
  
  BUT

1. The gimmick is pushed too far sometimes, especially at the kickslider part : it can be ugly and good at the same time, I've already explained it in my mod, i won't say it again (fuck I'm lazy)
2. The gimmick isn't used in some ugly parts, I looked at the map and modded it with the gimmick in head, sometimes the map has good patterns (perfect angles, flows perfectly...) in ugly parts like these perfect pentagons here 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - or the squares here 03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - it's not a really ugly part with the vocals etc, but it uses the same instruments + the high sound in the bg literally fuck your ears
3. The gimmick is a bit useless/wrong : Ok, contrast, bla bla bla, I know, but the contrast is just obvious with the difficulty 8*/4* not obvious enough ? ok, there are a few ways to map metal like Mazzerin's style "omg you suck Mazz's dick kys" first : fuck you and it was an example, Maakeli is also a good metal mapper, pishi is a good metal mapper, Sayaka is a good metal mapper (restricted for shit but we're not here to talk about that). You get my point, there are other ways to map this and they're all better
4. Some jumps are weird and uncomfortable : "it's the point of the map lol" It can be ugly and comfortable, some jumps look like normal patterns (triangles, stars,...) but with extended ds for spacing emphasis, back and forths/really sharp angles/wide angles are better than this imo and can be ugly
5. Some patterns have nosense spacing : thinking especially about these 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the DS goes at weird spots, it's just 2 (maybe 3) repeated sounds so the ds shouldn't change that much (+ 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this one is just too spaced)
   I'm also thinking about this one 04:33:754 (1) - this part was just 2 sliders 1/2 for stop stop and it's reverse sliders at a random point

Ok this is literally my mod but extended, but now eveything is justified I guess (inb4 some fanboy saying I'm totally wrong) (I'll only answer to real posts now, not the usual "lol your opinion doesn't matter here")

Logic Agent wrote:

i don't care about any of this drama but i think there's an aesthetic inconsistency you might consider changing unless it was intentional.

00:17:766 and 01:22:624 are obviously supposed to be similar with the whole guitar going ham and the vocals increasing in intensity, however in the first section you start using "ugly" 1/2 sliders way sooner than you do in the second section. 00:23:986 (5) Here is the first to show that some kind of aesthetic change is gonna start and then after that the last slider in every group of four is ugly.

01:30:362 (4) - but here you waited until pretty far into the section to start making slightly ugly sliders to indicate the change again, maybe cause the section itself is longer before the vocals start yelling again? i dunno, just something i thought i'd ask about. don't mind me if it was intentional/ you've already brought it up, but you could probably start doing slightly ugly ones 01:27:148 (5) here or something.

but yeah, good luck with... all this. my opinion on this map has changed significantly since i voted it a 1/10 almost a year ago

Kurai wrote:

Just throwing things I believe should really be fixed. I did not take into account the "beauty" of the patterns.

[Stop! Stop Winny Upload!!]

1. 01:40:844 (2) - Overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin. Fixed this
2. 01:58:499 (1) - Shouldn't be a normal finish? yea
3. 02:27:195 (1,2,3,4) - I really dislike how those kick sliders are overlapped by the previous ones. 1 also slightly overlaps 3 and 2 overlaps 4 as well. I understand you probably did that on purpose, but it's hardly sightreadable and more confusing than anything when you could have made it easier to read just like 02:28:885 (1,2,3,4) - . Well, they are still overlapped, but i made the heads more visible.
4. 02:37:902 (2,3,4) - Slightly overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin. Moved it down slightly
5. 02:40:244 (2) - Slightly overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin. ^
6. 02:56:316 (1) - Slightly overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin.
7. 02:56:786 (1) - Slighlty overlapped by the score nulbers with the default skin. Moved both down a bit i guess.
8. 04:22:012 (2) - Almost under the HP bar grr I think thats fine D:

1. I really dislike when objects are put just next to the bottom border of the screen because 1. it's not that comfortable to play 2. it's sometime overlapped by the little accuracy bar. Here's a list of the objects placed way too close to the bottom border of the screen, moving them some grids up should do the trick, it's not like you have to care much about the aesthetics of the map xp: I'd like to keep these because imo putting it near the bottom of the screen doesn't really make it less comfortable to play. i'm just using more of the screen to my advantage really. also the accuracy bar is disabled by default so I don't think its necessary to consider that unlike hp bar etc...
   
   
   1. 00:51:250 (1) -
   2. 00:56:007 (3,5,1) -
   3. 00:59:022 (1) -
   4. 01:01:794 (3,5) -
   5. 01:31:862 (3) -
   6. 01:33:991 (1) -
   7. 01:35:058 (3) -
   8. 01:58:499 (1) -
   9. 04:45:311 (1) -

I don't mind rebubbling this if I am allowed to.

Kagetsu wrote:

what most of people would agree with, though, is that 280~ bpm full screen jumps aren't approachable even for the top part of the playerbase

Monstrata wrote:

CXu wrote:

Have you thought about mapping in a way where each pattern/combo is messy, but how the patterns/combos interact with each other on the playfield is more organized? While the song is indeed, well, "messy", it does have an overarching structure as music mostly do with just how it's structured. Since you're trying to make the patterns ugly to reflect the song, making the patterns the patterns make more organized (?? lolidk) could improve the map aesthetically while still keeping the core idea of ugly vs not ugly. You have some more structural mapping in there already. At least it sounds like a good idea in my head xd

So like idk doing something like this at 01:39:451 (1) -

SPOILER

The slider on its own is still ugly, but it doesn't bleed into the previous sliderpattern, so they can more easily be seen in isolation, if that makes sense.

Just a thought, and it would be quite a bit of work if you were to do this, but I might as well throw the idea out there.

I think its too far in to implement this idea. I don't really like it anyways since imo that doesn't really have any aesthetic consistency anyways, or its really hard to tell given the AR anyways. But thanks. Could be useful for my other maximum the hormone map .

hi-mei wrote:

if you wanna hear community, just take a look on this:



quoting random people that dont know shit in mapping and saying "hey nice map" has 0 effective value

hi-mei wrote:

<3 kagetsu

one of few that deserves respect

if you wanna hear community, just take a look on this:



quoting random people that dont know shit in mapping and saying "hey nice map" has 0 effective value

kagetsu not the last one to pop this

My Angel Azusa wrote:

hi-mei wrote:

<3 kagetsu

one of few that deserves respect

if you wanna hear community, just take a look on this:



quoting random people that dont know shit in mapping and saying "hey nice map" has 0 effective value

kagetsu not the last one to pop this

lol this is really invalid

People rate low for various reasons, not just because this map sucks or it lacks quality.
For some maps players rate very low because of bad song choice/bad anime/no pp/too much pp etc.
In case of ALIEN most players find it extremely difficult and uncomfortable to play so they rate 1 star, however this still doesn't contribute to anything about its quality.

hi-mei wrote:

mapping quality is delusion.

hi-mei wrote:

what do u mean by quality?

lets be real here.

mapping quality is delusion.
it rather comes to the point, whether the map is in adequate state to this game or not.

for now its far from most of fundamentals people were developing over the years.

hi-mei wrote:

i mean, for monstrata its not even the deal about this map, its a challenge for him to rank something that literally nobody can.

hi-mei wrote:

he is asking many people to help him and promises his help in return (bubble for bubble huh?)