I got like 300 ms on those things when I played and I could at least play ar 6-10.5 so
No excuses. Also I still hold ar > 10.33 is irrelevant
No excuses. Also I still hold ar > 10.33 is irrelevant
I don't really agree with your statement, for me talent is something you have to figure out for yourself and also take the time for it, so you should focus on it in order to improve faster ! Knowing that you have talent in a special side of the game is also a great feeling !Yuudachi-kun wrote:
And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.
Everyone hits their ceiling at some point, typically at 1-2 year in the game. From then on its about niche training to push that ceiling further. Talented people who put in work will reach their ceiling faster, but will also be able to push their limits further and at a much quicker pace as well. Hard work alone cannot win.Philosofikal wrote:
I suppose a better way to phrase what I'm asking is "Does our natural affinity or disaffinity for something raise or lower the skill ceiling, and not just the rate of skill growth?" Does a person with "talent" simply hit their ceiling quicker? Can hard work fully substitute for natural affinity?I Give Up wrote:
Talent exists regardless of whether or not you believe it. Since we are all not identical clones, our traits and affinities are all different. So naturally you're going to be worse at some things but also better at certain things than most people, that's what we call a talent! And on other news the sky is blue and water is wet.
I don't think we have the same definition of ceiling.I Give Up wrote:
Everyone hits their ceiling at some point, typically at 1-2 year in the game. From then on its about niche training to push that ceiling further. Talented people who put in work will reach their ceiling faster, but will also be able to push their limits further and at a much quicker pace as well. Hard work alone cannot win.
So you believe anyone can be the best, then?SirOxorsid wrote:
The whole ceiling concept is kind of ridiculous.
What are you even trying to say, other than that you're not too immature to stir up two year old drama? I don't get the purpose of this post.Yuudachi-kun wrote:
Reminder OP was active 2 ears ago here and had not played a substantial amount since then
Remember your cod videos
Show me anywhere in this thread where I implied that this question has anything to do with me in particular.Yuudachi-kun wrote:
You're someone who hasn't bothered putting in the effort over a long period of time yet waste time making threads about this and conjecturing over talent
Look at your fucking sig quote
Yuudachi-kun wrote:
Show me where ai implied the question implies having anything to do with you specifically
Yuudachi-kun wrote:
You're someone who hasn't bothered putting in the effort over a long period of time yet waste time making threads about this and conjecturing over talent
I didn't have to look very hard. What other motivation would cause these random personal attacks? I mean really now, you're not exactly playing 4D chess here. Feel free to backpedal and cease derailing my thead now that I didn't take your shitty low effort bait.Yuudachi-kun wrote:
Reminder OP was active 2 ears ago here and had not played a substantial amount since then
No one has ever even come close to their final form coz no-one has ever put olympic amount of effort into this game. The "ceiling" that most people are thinking of is the same one I am refering to in my responsePhilosofikal wrote:
I Give Up wrote:
I don't think we have the same definition of ceiling.
Hendrix practiced with an intense passion and for his entire life. A few years of bad practice would produce results that would seem abysmal in comparison.Nattsun wrote:
I played the guitar for years, why am I not as good as Jimmy Hendrix :^)
It probably depends on what is causing the ceiling. There are many things you can change to increase your maximum skill level. Diet, Fitness, Mindset, Equipment, technique, practice method, practice frequency, practice length and many many other things make an impact.Philosofikal wrote:
But, given a theoretical infinite of time, do you believe that there's anything stopping a "bad" player from being as skilled as a "good" player, even if it takes them longer? There have to be ceilings to human skill - do less "talented" people have the same theoretical ceiling if they push themselves hard enough, for long enough? Do we all have individual limits, or a shared limit that some of us reach faster than others?
Its true that everyone is different, but how much of that genetic difference actually effects that persons potential? There are no real conclusive answers to this question and there probably wont be for a very long time because of the massive number of complex variables that effect potential. To have an accurate experiment all of these would need to be controlled.I Give Up wrote:
Talent exists regardless of whether or not you believe it. Since we are all not identical clones, our traits and affinities are all different. So naturally you're going to be worse at some things but also better at certain things than most people, that's what we call a talent! And on other news the sky is blue and water is wet.
Yes you are physically unable to bypass a certain speed level but its not because of talent its because you had RSI. RSI can be prevented and preventing it has little to do with talent, same goes with a lot of other things that effect potential.[Taiga] wrote:
I already had surgery due RSI and not made by osu! specifically but due how much time i spend on computer and how many years I work that way
I am physically unable to bypass certain speed level
So how does one prevent RSI? Isn't this also greatly decided by the anatomy of your hand/wrist? I got carpal tunnel syndrome in my right wrist probably caused by my mouse usage, so you claim that it is entirely my fault for not preventing it?M3ATL0V3R wrote:
Yes you are physically unable to bypass a certain speed level but its not because of talent its because you had RSI. RSI can be prevented and preventing it has little to do with talent, same goes with a lot of other things that effect potential.
Of course not. Only 100 people will ever be a top 100 player. If you decide to define the talented as the people who reach the top 100, then per definition anyone who ever reaches the top will be "talented", and you can never "prove" that anyone can beat talent with hard work, because the moment they do, they are "talented".Nattsun wrote:
Implying that everyone could've become a top100 player, but we decided not to :-)
Though by claiming it to be talent you're equally discrediting the people that did make it through hard work and dedication.NixXSkate wrote:
Because of people like you who think players are bad simply because they're lazier than the other person. Because of people like me who practiced streaming for years to go from abysmal level to mediocre, for you to then walk in and suggest that talent doesn't exist is kinda infuriating. You discredit the work of the untalented that don't give up by doing that. You act like I want talent to exist, why the fuck would I want that? I just acknowledge it exists and continue to play anyway.Rayne wrote:
You'd be better off just forgetting about things like talent because whether it exists or not you can't influence it anyway, yet people are so passionate about its existence. I wonder why that is?
By paying attention to your hands/body when it tells you something's wrong, hand stretching, frequent breaks, consulting a doctor/someone who knows about your hand posture and have them correct it to minimize the risk of RSI, getting more ergonomic peripherals, actually stopping and letting your hands heal.tomden wrote:
So how does one prevent RSI? Isn't this also greatly decided by the anatomy of your hand/wrist? I got carpal tunnel syndrome in my right wrist probably caused by my mouse usage, so you claim that it is entirely my fault for not preventing it?M3ATL0V3R wrote:
Yes you are physically unable to bypass a certain speed level but its not because of talent its because you had RSI. RSI can be prevented and preventing it has little to do with talent, same goes with a lot of other things that effect potential.
Not everyone can become the best. That's why I posted that "implying that..." text. It was partly sarcasm, but there is truth behind it.SirOxorsid wrote:
Well that's true enough since unless you live and breathe osu! it's not going to happen.Nattsun wrote:
Implying that everyone could've become a top100 player, but we decided not to :-)
It's a mentality thing more than anything. When you go to a concert/play/whatever and see a great performance, you might say "that person is really talented", but you really mean "that person really worked their ass off". The main reason I didn't like the OPs argument in the other thread is he's trying to quantify something that I don't think should even be quantified in the first place. He's pretty much calling those with a higher playcount "untalented" which is flawed in so many ways and doesn't account for so many variables (time spent offline, time spent not trying for great plays, time spent maybe replaying the same map 2000 times because you just really want that great score, multiplayer). And even if all those variables were accounted for it's still doesn't make sense to try to quantify an abstract idea. It's completely bizarre to me that he would say anyone under 5k wouldn't have the potential to get to the top, that alone should be proof of someone's dedication to the game.
It'd be cool if we could get an actual osu pro's input on this.
Yes of course from the moment I got diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome I followed the advice of my doctor and took a break of a few months got wrist rests, started using text editors that don't require the usage of a mouse when working etc. But that was after I started developping it since I never had any problems before despite using a mouse daily for over 10 years. Once you start feeling that something is wrong you can easily minimize the risk of it getting worse but preventing getting it in the first place I'm not sure about that.CXu wrote:
By paying attention to your hands/body when it tells you something's wrong, hand stretching, frequent breaks, consulting a doctor/someone who knows about your hand posture and have them correct it to minimize the risk of RSI, getting more ergonomic peripherals, actually stopping and letting your hands heal.
There's a plethora of things you can do to prevent it. It's called Repetitive Strain Injury. Worst case scenario, stop repeating the same motions and actually let your hands take a break before you develop RSI.
Never said talent allows you to be good without hard work, it just enables you to be better with hard work. It's unfair to assume that the amount skill someone has is purely based on how hard and how well they work. I'm not saying natural talent = talent.CXu wrote:
Though by claiming it to be talent you're equally discrediting the people that did make it through hard work and dedication.NixXSkate wrote:
Because of people like you who think players are bad simply because they're lazier than the other person. Because of people like me who practiced streaming for years to go from abysmal level to mediocre, for you to then walk in and suggest that talent doesn't exist is kinda infuriating. You discredit the work of the untalented that don't give up by doing that. You act like I want talent to exist, why the fuck would I want that? I just acknowledge it exists and continue to play anyway.
Doesn't the existence of savants basically prove talent exists? Such an obvious sign that brains are wired differently...Rayne wrote:
The Genes vs environmental influences discussion is really old, still ongoing and still hasn't really come to real conclusions, simply because it's pretty much impossible to prove either ones point. It's more philosophical than anything else.
PS: I still believe in the concept of "talent". It is something I can't proof, indeed, but is it wrong to believe in talent? It's not like I blame talent for my lack of skill, I just believe that I will be outclassed by someone who is talented if we invest the same amount of time into the same thing. If I think about it you could say that I was "talented" in certain things, I was insanely good in table tennis without trying and investing time, while others played for years and were not even close to my skill level, can we just assume I was more talented? Because I don't see why I should've been better than others, I didn't do any similar sport, neither dedicated my short time to that sports.Rayne wrote:
Nattsun, that example is just hypothesis though and doesn't prove anything. It's a pure assumption.
As stated before there are are countless tiny and big unknown variables that influence the outcome. Even if you did the same things from now on, you'd still have done vastly different things before that moment that would still influence the outcome.
It was indeed just a hypothesis, but the outcome will be different, be it your reasons or "talent".
This discussion is repetitive. No side can really prove their point, nor deny the others. A bit like religion talk. Pointless.
It's just up to you what you believe in, and in my opinion it's the better idea to not believe it.
Religion talk is not pointless. The only pointless thing to talk about the existence of a god. Nobody can proof neither deny his existence.
The Genes vs environmental influences discussion is really old, still ongoing and still hasn't really come to real conclusions, simply because it's pretty much impossible to prove either ones point. It's more philosophical than anything else.
If you're interested in that, just read up on "Nature vs Nurture"
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely glance over that debate (I assume it is a debate lol).
We don't know how hard the other olympics practice, if they practice harder or less than Bolt, what kind of genes Bolt has, or if there are any "sport genes" at all. What kind of past all the olympics have, all those little variables we can impossibly know, hence why it is just a matter of believing.
I agree, but I'll just add that I never stated that Bolt doesn't practice hard. There is a "something" that makes/made him superior to others to his prime,
you can't really deny that, can you? I just assumed that he is just more talented than others, it may be something else.
Not really, there have been savants that have had injuries to the brain that end up with similar results. These people cant function normally so they end up spending a lot of time and attention to the mental faculties they have left which in turn become overdeveloped compared to most people.NixXSkate wrote:
Doesn't the existence of savants basically prove talent exists? Such an obvious sign that brains are wired differently...
I wouldn't say its your fault since you probably didn't know what you were doing wrong. However there are a massive number of things to reduce the strain and increase healing speed so you can play the same amount while also not getting RSI.tomden wrote:
So how does one prevent RSI? Isn't this also greatly decided by the anatomy of your hand/wrist? I got carpal tunnel syndrome in my right wrist probably caused by my mouse usage, so you claim that it is entirely my fault for not preventing it?
This was my point, when I read your reply on taiga's post it sounded like it was taiga's fault for getting RSI. You only start noticing that something is wrong at the moment you actually feel that something is wrong at which point it migh already pretty severe depending on what kind of injury it is (for example a neural problem is way harder to detect early than a muscle disorder). If i developed some kind of injury in my left wrist I would kinda understand since I was spamming deathstreams 24/7 but I never felt any discomfort in my right wrist when playing.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
I wouldn't say its your fault since you probably didn't know what you were doing wrong.
No problem. I'm happy you didn't take what I said personally and took the time to read what I wrote. Putting Taiga or anyone else down is not my intention. RSI is awful and I am happy if I can do anything to help people prevent it.tomden wrote:
This was my point, when I read your reply on taiga's post it sounded like it was taiga's fault for getting RSI. You only start noticing that something is wrong at the moment you actually feel that something is wrong at which point it migh already pretty severe depending on what kind of injury it is (for example a neural problem is way harder to detect early than a muscle disorder). If i developed some kind of injury in my left wrist I would kinda understand since I was spamming deathstreams 24/7 but I never felt any discomfort in my right wrist when playing.
And thanks for the post giving advice on how to deal with/prevent rsi. It's a good read.
Nattsun wrote:
PS: I still believe in the concept of "talent". It is something I can't proof, indeed, but is it wrong to believe in talent? It's not like I blame talent for my lack of skill, I just believe that I will be outclassed by someone who is talented if we invest the same amount of time into the same thing. If I think about it you could say that I was "talented" in certain things, I was insanely good in table tennis without trying and investing time, while others played for years and were not even close to my skill level, can we just assume I was more talented? Because I don't see why I should've been better than others, I didn't do any similar sport, neither dedicated my short time to that sports.Rayne wrote:
Nattsun, that example is just hypothesis though and doesn't prove anything. It's a pure assumption.
As stated before there are are countless tiny and big unknown variables that influence the outcome. Even if you did the same things from now on, you'd still have done vastly different things before that moment that would still influence the outcome.
It was indeed just a hypothesis, but the outcome will be different, be it your reasons or "talent".
This discussion is repetitive. No side can really prove their point, nor deny the others. A bit like religion talk. Pointless.
It's just up to you what you believe in, and in my opinion it's the better idea to not believe it.
Religion talk is not pointless. The only pointless thing to talk about the existence of a god. Nobody can proof neither deny his existence.
The Genes vs environmental influences discussion is really old, still ongoing and still hasn't really come to real conclusions, simply because it's pretty much impossible to prove either ones point. It's more philosophical than anything else.
If you're interested in that, just read up on "Nature vs Nurture"
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely glance over that debate (I assume it is a debate lol).
We don't know how hard the other olympics practice, if they practice harder or less than Bolt, what kind of genes Bolt has, or if there are any "sport genes" at all. What kind of past all the olympics have, all those little variables we can impossibly know, hence why it is just a matter of believing.
I agree, but I'll just add that I never stated that Bolt doesn't practice hard. There is a "something" that makes/made him superior to others to his prime,
you can't really deny that, can you? I just assumed that he is just more talented than others, it may be something else.
I got to the point where I beat some kynan scores on the DT leaderboards to find they were one to two years old at the time.Nattsun wrote:
Talent is a thing and denying it is ridiculous, but using it as excuse is even worse. We are talking about a circle clicking game here, everyone can farm his way to at least a 3 digit rank if he invests a truckload of time. Especially with the low amount of players compared to other games it is not even THAT hard... Doing crazy stuff like Gayz on the other hand is indeed a matter of talent, just look at Kynan, how hard he tried and yet he can't compete with him.
So, the pinball wizard wasn't talented at pinball? So, all of our minds work the same unless we're autistic or have a head injury? I don't understand your argument.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
Not really, there have been savants that have had injuries to the brain that end up with similar results. These people cant function normally so they end up spending a lot of time and attention to the mental faculties they have left which in turn become overdeveloped compared to most people.NixXSkate wrote:
Doesn't the existence of savants basically prove talent exists? Such an obvious sign that brains are wired differently...
Good scores>ppYuudachi-kun wrote:
I got to the point where I beat some kynan scores on the DT leaderboards to find they were one to two years old at the time.Nattsun wrote:
Talent is a thing and denying it is ridiculous, but using it as excuse is even worse. We are talking about a circle clicking game here, everyone can farm his way to at least a 3 digit rank if he invests a truckload of time. Especially with the low amount of players compared to other games it is not even THAT hard... Doing crazy stuff like Gayz on the other hand is indeed a matter of talent, just look at Kynan, how hard he tried and yet he can't compete with him.
Small victories
Are you a masochist?Nattsun wrote:
Good scores>pp
I finally managed to FC this aids with 91% acc: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/295&m=0
It makes me feel good to see that I am in the top3 in the Germany leaderboards on a quite popular map
Nattsun wrote:
Good scores>pp
I finally managed to FC this aids with 91% acc: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/295&m=0
It makes me feel good to see that I am in the top3 in the Germany leaderboards on a quite popular map
So basically talent is a social constructchainpullz wrote:
Though I've always viewed God as too convenient and self serving of an answer to everything.
Being autistic is mostly a genetic dysfunction of the brain, having a head injury is a physical dysfunction. If you can have savants due to physical injuries rather than a genetic disorder it shows that being a savant isn't about inherent ability (talent) its about having a different brain structure. You could argue that if the savants that had head injuries didn't have the injuries they would not of developed their ability and so their ability was not innate.NixXSkate wrote:
So, the pinball wizard wasn't talented at pinball? So, all of our minds work the same unless we're autistic or have a head injury? I don't understand your argument.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
Not really, there have been savants that have had injuries to the brain that end up with similar results. These people cant function normally so they end up spending a lot of time and attention to the mental faculties they have left which in turn become overdeveloped compared to most people.
So basically, it's different. Don't try to mix it together.They have different problems which has different solutions.NixXSkate wrote:
Being autistic is mostly a genetic dysfunction of the brain, having a head injury is a physical dysfunction. If you can have savants due to physical injuries rather than a genetic disorder it shows that being a savant isn't about inherent ability (talent) its about having a different brain structure. You could argue that if the savants that had head injuries didn't have the injuries they would not of developed their ability and so their ability was not innate.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
So, the pinball wizard wasn't talented at pinball? So, all of our minds work the same unless we're autistic or have a head injury? I don't understand your argument.
I agree. We know how muscles work so we can measure them and you can say that the ceiling of purely physical activities have a strong genetic basis. However anything that requires thought is shrouded in mystery because the size of the brain has nothing to do with its "strength" unlike muscles. You can measure performance for simple tasks like memory but animals like monkeys have shown far greater memory feats than even some of the most "talented" humans [1]. You could say that larger frontal lobes account for greater higher levels of intelligence but it has been shown that other parts of the brain contribute as well [2]. You could say from the statistics that mental ability is somewhat genetic but without being able to show how intelligence works from first principals you can't say for certain.chainpullz wrote:
Considering we have basically no idea how the human brain actually works on a fundamental level and computers are orders of magnitude slower than human brains I think it's fair to say believing in some magical catch-all explanation -- call it talent, if you will -- is not much different than believing in some higher being -- call it god, if you will.
Though I've always viewed God as too convenient and self serving of an answer to everything.
I am a masochist, I love it when old maps make me suffer :^)Rayne wrote:
Are you a masochist?
If so, join the elite underground top 4 Germany on this one. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/26605 (Technika diff)
Hardest 4* I've played in my life.