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sakuraburst - cherry blossoms explode across the dying horiz

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Cryptic
Shiirn and I talked about the SB in-game, and I think as long as it isn't trashing people with worse computers than mine its fine.
Topic Starter
Shiirn

Spaghetti wrote:

tldr particles ingame that go offscreen get clipped, whereas the ones in the editor dont, which causes major differences in sb load between the two

to check sb load ingame use the testing window and look at the top left
shithahahaitotallyforgotthat

ziin would flagellate me

but it does slip over 6 in the portion i linked. But i'm not confident enough to go through and remove particles willy-nilly, unless I can just remove all of the shockwave.png ones (i can do that easily)

removing shockwave.png and the related .osb lines pushes SB load well, well under the 6.00 threshold
Zetera
Not sure whether this still has any relevance, but...

Even though I love the idea of the wiggle in these sliders, they do indeed interfere with the flow and speed the sliders naturally have. However, this would be much less of a problem if the wiggle was clearly visible. Also, if you changed the direction of the slider after the wiggle, creating a spike or corner, you call it, the effect of the slider being slowed down would be less harsh. This is why a slider like 01:27:057 (3) - works much better than a slider like 01:14:749 (3) - . using the overlap as an indicator is a nice idea, but it counters any logic that has been developed during the evolution of mapping. I don't know whether this is a bad thing, but it does what it does.

Good luck!


ps: oh well, most of this has been stated already.
I Must Decrease
The sliders are controversial which is why I have nominated the map to promote discussion and community feedback. While I understand these are technically unrankable, it's been a long time since the RC has been updated regarding these, and would be nice to see how the community feels about select and limited usage of an otherwise unrankable technique.

Please note, that if any QAT or community manager feels that what I have done is poor usage of the qualified section, please DQ this map immediately and scold me how you see fit.

EDIT reason: probably should be serious with why i qualified this
Topic Starter
Shiirn
i'd like to thank my mom and brave people willing to put this forward for community discussion



and knowing me there will be lots of calm, respectful discussion about this
Mint
01:20:903 (3) - I did wish you changed this one though, because the buzz indicators are now covered up by slider head + the anchor points after the buzz, whereas with the other sliders you can still see a little nudge http://puu.sh/qRJDF/d2218ff203.jpg / http://puu.sh/qRJGC/96f4ec18d0.jpg

Also, the .osb still contains code of shockwave.png, if you care.

However, knowing you - and seeing how many times these sliders have been discussed - you will probably not change this at all. Interesting to see that some things can be disregarded in some cases...

Congrats! I hope there can be a drama-free discussion, if there will be any in the first place.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Oh, I actually forgot that I did remove shockwave.png. The sliders in question generally ended up a result of "well, even if you can't see them, the buzz in question is inconsequential to gameplay". They're purely visual.
fieryrage
so wait why are there brackets around the tags
_DT3
Well, gratz on the qualify, Shiirn, creative as always!
Cryptic

fieryrage wrote:

so wait why are there brackets around the tags
It doesn't affect searching for them, I believe Shiirn did it to help segregate the names relevant to the map from the tags relevant to the song.

Glad to see you found another BN, Shiirn. Congrats!
Topic Starter
Shiirn
The brackets are there because they are in the title of the song but don't appear even when i tried to put them in the song information. I wanted them somewhere in case people just quote the entire song name. They're independent characters that are independently searchable. It's weird.
Monstrata
03:35:326 (1,2) - With the way you arranged them, as well as the way those green lines are placed in timeline, it really looks like you intended for them to be 1/4 longer, ending at 03:36:191 - and 03:37:153 - .
03:39:941 (4) - This sounds too early... assuming you're following the woodwind instrument. Might need an offset shift here...
Side
sorry shiirn but as soon as I got to the first buzzy slider my PC automatically deleted system32, sent the downandup virus through all my wireless devices connected to my home network and changed my wallpapers to a tiled 320x320 free harambe picture. I feel these instances are related to that slider thus this map should be unranked :^)
Topic Starter
Shiirn

Monstrata wrote:

03:35:326 (1,2) - With the way you arranged them, as well as the way those green lines are placed in timeline, it really looks like you intended for them to be 1/4 longer, ending at 03:36:191 - and 03:37:153 - . They were originally ending on the blue ticks, but this added an additional slidertick that was invisible and caused players to break very often. I shortened the sliders and never carried over the 5% volume slider endings because A) I wasn't the one who 'silenced' them, and I prefer slider endings to have volume levels equal to their start (exceptions apply, obviously) and then B) forgot to outright delete the green ticks. It'd make the entire section 25%, but oh well.
03:39:941 (4) - This sounds too early... assuming you're following the woodwind instrument. Might need an offset shift here... IF you'll look at sakurabursts handy documentation and construction guide he did on this very song (xilver has a link in his map, i'm a bit busy to link it here), you'll see that he didn't actually use any offset changes. This might be a little bit off, but it's a very lenient slider head.

Side wrote:

sorry shiirn but as soon as I got to the first buzzy slider my PC automatically deleted system32, sent the downandup virus through all my wireless devices connected to my home network and changed my wallpapers to a tiled 320x320 free harambe picture. I feel these instances are related to that slider thus this map should be unranked :^)
sounds like a personal problem
Monstrata
He said he just copied the entire sample from the pokemon movie where lugia appears lol. I don't think made any adjustments to the timing since it sounds off xP. (also on the video it looks like the .wav isn't synced to the track to begin with).

The slider is lenient of course, but idk... it sounds like it's off by at least a 1/4 tick, like 03:40:037 - sounds like a better place to begin the slider.
sahuang
The sliders that change sv....they are quite controversial tbh
All rules are exactly that: RULES. They are NOT guidelines and may NOT be broken under ANY circumstance.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
The entire point, that has been discussed by dozens of mappers for months, with many years of mapping experience, is that they do not impact gameplay enough to be worth considering "changing slider velocity". They are 170ms duration buzzes. The average human reaction time to visual stimulus is 270ms. This is why AR11 is so incredibly difficult - you reach approach rates that are literally faster than human beings can, on average, react to.

What does this mean? This means that, given absolutely no forewarning whatsoever (e.g. the bulges are completely hidden and you have NO IDEA the sliders are about to vibrate), in pretty much every circumstance the sliders will have finished their vibration before the brain even realizes it's happened.

Thus, the question simply falls to "does this cause an unfair or confusing aspect for the player?" The answer is an absolute NO. There are no nearby ticks, the velocity change is insignificant, and the slider continues along what looks to be the normal path. There is no gameplay situation in which someone can possibly break because of the sliders, either, because as mentioned the vibration is over by the time the player even notices it's happened. All that's left is noticing "Oh hey those sliders vibrated during the bass distortion effect that's real fuckin' neato" and that's the impact I want delivered.


If you have any sort of argument against the concepts I listed above, feel free to bring them up.


Rules are created to avoid certain events from happening. Thus, they need to be worded in as generalized ways as possible to prevent those events from being possible. These sliders bend (or break) the rules as written, but do not actually cause any rule-breaking effect on the player.


But if people are here just to give me shit because I've given people shit in the past, then you're wasting your time.
Stjpa

sahuang wrote:

The sliders that change sv....they are quite controversial tbh
All rules are exactly that: RULES. They are NOT guidelines and may NOT be broken under ANY circumstance.
They are allowed with the new upcoming RC, maybe read them now. The only things that are controversial right now are the sliderpaths themselves.
Monstrata
Stjpa - the new RC isn't in effect yet

Shiirn - There are a lot of unrankable elements that do not actually cause any rule-breaking effect on the player. That doesn't mean we can just use them and rank them.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
{Citation needed}
Irreversible
I just have one simple question.

If something isn't allowed by the rules, why is this approved? As you said yourself, the new RC isn't in effect yet, so this theoretically is unrankable. 10/10
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Because the rules exist to stop the players from having an unfair experience whilst playing this game. Ideally, they are as nonrestrictive as possible as far as allowing creativity for both the mapper and the player experience. It's better to blanket out some edge cases to make sure you've stopped most, or all, possible ways of treating the player unfairly.

In other words, rules, as a rule, should be "overkill". They should cover more than they need to to get their job done. But there are edge cases where the rules are broken, but the area they're intended to cover has not been breached.

Anyone who's talked to me before has probably heard me say "There are exceptions to every rule", and I believe this map qualifies as an exception. Is that selfish? That's up to other people to tell. I'd personally allow these sliders from anyone else.
Ascendance
Hey cool, my first post as a non-nominator!

Ranking Criteria wrote:

All rules are exactly that: RULES. They are NOT guidelines and may NOT be broken under ANY circumstance.
I could write 10 paragraphs about how if I have a song that rewinds backwards, I can use a burai slider that goes inwards on itself because it "fits the song" and "should be intuitive", but realistically it breaks the rules :)

Also, as for the "new rule" that was supposed to save this mapset this weekend, well.. I don't think this falls under the new RC either.

Proposed RC wrote:

Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous cannot be used, such as burai sliders and hold sliders without straightforward slider borders. Perfectly overlapping slider bodies must give enough time to fully read each slider’s path.
As nominators, you are allowed to decline Shiirn's requests to nominate this map. This isn't a form of bravery for the sake of the community, it's a form of you ranking something that is explicitly unrankable. Just a reminder in case people didn't read the BNG Rules



Then again, I couldn't have expected you to read those if you couldn't read the Ranking Criteria that disallows these kinds of things. Good luck!
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Burai sliders present an unfair expectation towards the player because they are not visually recognizable at all and can cause the player to become confused even when they know it's a burai. I've already explained why these sliders do not do that.

If you can provide a more valid set of reasoning than simply repeating "But rules are rules, man!" like a decrepit parrot, I'll be happy to discuss them with you. But otherwise, I don't think you'll provide anything to this discussion that hasn't already been brought up. These sliders have been discussed by several dozen people, and each of the qualifying BNs independently came to the conclusion that they believed they should be given a chance.

I'm not exactly going to fall for your logical fallacies like you may think everyone should.
Ascendance
Why would you want to break the rules anyways for any other reason to be an incompetent edgelord? You aren't a god, Shiirn. It's about time you got brought back down to Earth like the rest of us and realize that you have to follow the same rules as the rest of us. No exceptions.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
ok
Ongaku

Ascendance wrote:

Why would you want to break the rules anyways for any other reason to be an incompetent edgelord? You aren't a god, Shiirn. It's about time you got brought back down to Earth like the rest of us and realize that you have to follow the same rules as the rest of us. No exceptions.
meanwhile monstrata
Ascendance
Ongaku to the rescue :D

Nice save bud!
Ongaku

Ascendance wrote:

Why would you want to break the rules anyways for any other reason to be an incompetent edgelord? You aren't a god, Shiirn. It's about time you got brought back down to Earth like the rest of us and realize that you have to follow the same rules as the rest of us. No exceptions.
Okay okay, let me just drop something.

We break rules so we can create new ones. Its improving creativity of the mapper and mappers all around, and if you can't seem to accept change, then feel free not to.

I understand rules are there for a reason, but in this case, it is completely justified in playablity. Maps are meant to be played, so if people can play it, so whats the problem?
I Must Decrease
The sliders are controversial which is why I have nominated the map to promote discussion and community feedback. While I understand these are technically unrankable, it's been a long time since the RC has been updated regarding these, and would be nice to see how the community feels about select and limited usage of an otherwise unrankable technique.

Please note, that if any QAT or community manager feels that what I have done is poor usage of the qualified section, please DQ this map immediately and scold me how you see fit.
Ascendance
Or you could do what any other NORMAL person would do and just propose a rule change in the RC subforum. It's not improving creativity it's degrading the state of the community. Shiirn is an iconic mapper, so of course people will be stupid enough to follow what he's doing. He's using his position in the community to do stupid things, like break rules and oppose everything. It's funny that you bring up Monstrata, also. Monstrata uses his position to rank admittedly dumb things too (hi Alien), but they aren't unrankable.

No one is here to say they don't like change. Change happens naturally. You can't justify breaking a RULE for the sake of change. You go through a normal process of a proposal like every other damn user, and if it's declined then suck it up. Believe it or not, Shiirn is not community manager, or leader of the Ranking Criteria Council, or peppy. He's Shiirn.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
If you'd refer to this thread, you'll see that sixteen qualified voices spoke up on the matter of these sliders. Not a single one of them called them unplayable or unfair to the player. Not a single one.

The only disagreements were caused by pre-existing rules and their feelings that they should be upheld as a higher priority than letting one map slip through as a precedent.

"peppy" was mentioned several times, as having a single post three years ago saying that they were unacceptable, on a map that used them very differently from how this map uses them. That map in question was actively manipulating the speed of the slider with the back-and-forth effect, causing the cursor to need to move faster after passing the "wiggle" portion. This opinion is questionable as a means of disputing this rule, as it's barely relevant when you realize these facts.

In fact, the reason this map has waited so long to be qualified is specifically because I was trying to go "up the totem pole" and ask the opinions of progressively higher and more authoritarian voices of the mapping community.

Loctav avoided the question, referencing that the new ranking criteria was being worked on and I should "figure it out over there". (There, I was held back mostly by Monstrata saying "stop trying to change the rules to rank your own map". Thanks, buddy.). He recently provided an updated insight that he didn't like how the bulges weren't easily visible, but felt that the sliders were fine from a gameplay perspective as well. The vibrations are very tiny, after all, and barely make the slider bulge.

And nobody higher-ranking than Loctav gave an answer either. ztrot tried to pass the question to peppy, feeling it wasn't his place to answer it himself (or so i was informed), and that went nowhere for a good two months.

Many people, myself included, decided we might as well just give the damn map a shot. It's not hurting anyone and it's already been discussed to hell and back. You're kind of starting to go in circles here, responding to my responses with personal attacks or simply repeating your point.

Bring in new information or new commentary, or quit mucking up the thread for the people with opinions that haven't already been discussed.



And seriously, "abusing my position in the community"? Being Shiirn is a detriment to trying to rank questionable content. People like you fuck with me for sport and I get stonewalled in completely random directions whenever I try to do anything by people simply being contrary to spite me. They might even have good reason to, but it's not exactly a boon.
Ascendance
Won't say anything more then. Good luck to the 3 nominators that you've just plunged into a terrible situation.
Monstrata
Like I said, there are other "technically unrankable" elements that have next to no impact in terms of playability. It doesn't mean we can just rank maps with unrankable elements.

Other unrankable elements without any harm to playability

-x pixels offscreen slider-ends / sliderborders
-burai's that are only overlapping by x pixels
-using red lines to reduce SV
-editing notepad to use two-decimal CS/AR/HP/OD

Just to name a few. I'm sure there are others, but i don't have my Aspire thinking cap on right now.



You guys are arguing that the sliders are playable. They probably are, Shiirn made a good case for playability through reaction times etc... An element being playable doesn't make it rankable though. People have to respect the RC. If mappers are allowed to break the rules, then why should everyone else respect the rules? Do you guys plan on promoting other unrankable but playable elements in the future? As much as I love unrankable elements (woo Aspire) I think we still need to respect the Ranking Criteria currently in place. It's dated, and we know that it's getting replaced soon enough. Wait for the new RC to be finalized and then we can revisit whether unrankable elements like this can become rankable.
I Must Decrease

Ascendance wrote:

Won't say anything more then. Good luck to the 3 nominators that you've just plunged into a terrible situation.
R.I.P. Xexxar: 2016-2016
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Those are all literally gamebreaking mechanics. They literally break the game by causing it to act unpredictably and unusually.

And pixels offscreen is more of a global aesthetic rule, just like skin requirements.

There are plenty of rankable self-overlapping sliders out there. I threw this together in five seconds and it's a fairly common shape for wub maps.


This map setting a precedent is the major valid argument against it, however, and I applaud that you're going that route instead of Ascendance's "rules are rules" diatribe. That's why it's in qualified for discussion at all. If enough people agree with you, it should be taken down. But only you and Ascendance have spoken against them thus far for the sake of blocking it to avoid it setting a precedent. And Sahuang made a post, i guess. But I hesitate to count people who just spit out "rules are rules". So only really you count, Monstrata.



If enough people think this map should be stopped to avoid it being easier for future maps to "break the rules by saying 'But Shiirn's map did it!'", in a mapping community that already immediately discards said other maps from being used as justification, then that's cool. Cool beans for you.


But it's not good enough for me, and apparently not good enough for a few other people.

"Maps should be judged on a case-by-case basis" has been a concept that's been around for far longer than any of us have. And it's a very good concept. I distinctly remember Lesjuh having something far worse than this in his Freestyler map, and it had tons of discussion as well. I'm not comparing myself to Lesjuh as a mapper or the situations at all, but I'm just saying this isn't the first time this has happened.
Stjpa

Xexxar wrote:

Ascendance wrote:

Won't say anything more then. Good luck to the 3 nominators that you've just plunged into a terrible situation.
R.I.P. Xexxar: 2016-2016
Kek.

Shiirn has valid points for bringing this to the qualified section and a lot of people (beside us 3 BNs, and even including QATs) agree on it. And since the qualified section is made for discussions I don't really see a problem at all here. Every QAT can easily DQ it if he wants to. Sure Shiirn could have made a proposal (or whatever it's called) but I don't remember that anything there has been accepted (might be because I'm new to mapping still).
Ascendance
Including QATs? I'm not so sure about that one :) The point is you've NOMINATED AN UNRANKABLE MAP, regardless of how Shiirn wants to put it, the map is unrankable. It's against the rules of the BNG and I'm sure you're 100% aware of that, since you read those rules, right?
7ambda

Ascendance wrote:

Including QATs? I'm not so sure about that one :) The point is you've NOMINATED AN UNRANKABLE MAP, regardless of how Shiirn wants to put it, the map is unrankable. It's against the rules of the BNG and I'm sure you're 100% aware of that, since you read those rules, right?
Rules are meant to be broken anyways. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stjpa
Monstrata used a wiggle in Hey kids!! too to slow down a slider even though it's against the RC, isn't it?

But anyway, let's wait for more opinions or a QAT who doesn't want this map to be pushed forward.
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