Please don't let those sliders cause problems. I cannot imagine this map without them. They fit to the point that nothing can replace them without ruining that part of the map.
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Already doing my fair take of shit anyways, might as well do something to get them all declined. I need for you to explode in mah face k thxs
This is a pretty good song at the start then wub wub hit me too hard
[lamentations of the past]
Since even the nominators can't really tell if it should pushed forward or not we are gonna try it. The rule is only there to prevent people abusing the way sliders have been made for, which isn't the case here because it fits more than well. Also, imo the wiggles are somewhat "readable" when taking a look on the sliderpath. Additional to that there's now a warning in the maps description, even though it's not even needed since the wiggles don't have impact for playability except you are someone who doesn't even try to follow the sliderball properly. Peppy even has been asked but afaik he refused to say anything about them, and his other statement from 3 years ago is quite old and might be outdated. And yeah, the qualified section is made for discussions, so if he appears here and is still against it them I'm deeply sorry for that.
In the whole IRC we pretty much only discussed about the epilepsy warning that is now enabled because one part is really on the edge (I asked several people about it, and it's only a warning after all) and fixed a NC.
Edit: If this map gets DQ'd because the majority of the community doesn't want it I won't push the map forward as well. I'm nominating it for the memes or whatever you would call it, it just deserves to be ranked in my opinion, so please tollerate that.
ziin would flagellate me
but it does slip over 6 in the portion i linked. But i'm not confident enough to go through and remove particles willy-nilly, unless I can just remove all of the shockwave.png ones (i can do that easily)
removing shockwave.png and the related .osb lines pushes SB load well, well under the 6.00 threshold
Glad to see you found another BN, Shiirn. Congrats!
We break rules so we can create new ones. Its improving creativity of the mapper and mappers all around, and if you can't seem to accept change, then feel free not to.
I understand rules are there for a reason, but in this case, it is completely justified in playablity. Maps are meant to be played, so if people can play it, so whats the problem?
Shiirn has valid points for bringing this to the qualified section and a lot of people (beside us 3 BNs, and even including QATs) agree on it. And since the qualified section is made for discussions I don't really see a problem at all here. Every QAT can easily DQ it if he wants to. Sure Shiirn could have made a proposal (or whatever it's called) but I don't remember that anything there has been accepted (might be because I'm new to mapping still).
for convenience, i believe that this slider is the one stjpa is talking about.
Anyways, wiggle sliders are game breaking mechanics too, Shiirn. But they can be done in a way to be perfectly playable. It doesn't excuse their unrankability
.
welp, since there is no consensus about these sliders between people who can qualify/disqualify maps i believe it's time to ask ppy :^)
I hope I was clear. I know we have extremely different views on how mapping should be done, and if it helps I actually do understand where you're coming from with your concepts of consistency and adherence to the raw structure of the music, I just.... disagree with them and feel that the pros of creative expression on the part of the mapper, and manipulating game concepts (as a simple example, my use of offbeat sliders even though they end on a "stronger beat") to provide a different experience for the player (offbeat slider patterns cause the player to feel different from on-beat) outweigh the cons that are associated with them (hard to pin down logically, sometimes very confusing from just looking at the editor).
The only things I'd be okay with fixing up pending a DQ (And help getting it back on track would be an instant "okay sure I can fix a lot of the minor stuff", after all) are
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You don't argue with grumd, you just don't
Imo 01:20:903 (3) - 01:27:057 (3) - are perfectly fine as there is a continous outline of the sliderpath and the wobble is also indicated by the shape.
But 01:14:749 (3) - is a burai and burais are not allowed for a good reason. Sure, at the slow sliderspeed it isn't a problem gameplaywise but the premise is that the player should always be able to tell how the sliderball goes at first glance of the shape and this is not the case for this slider because the wiggle-indicating change of slidershape is covered by the overlap. The wiggle itself fits nicely but in the interest of readibility+ranking criteria I think it'd be best if you used a more readable shape here - the other 6/1 sliders show that it's possible.
But 01:14:749 (3) - is a burai and burais are not allowed for a good reason. Sure, at the slow sliderspeed it isn't a problem gameplaywise but the premise is that the player should always be able to tell how the sliderball goes at first glance of the shape and this is not the case for this slider because the wiggle-indicating change of slidershape is covered by the overlap. The wiggle itself fits nicely but in the interest of readibility+ranking criteria I think it'd be best if you used a more readable shape here - the other 6/1 sliders show that it's possible.
[General]
Nice map, GL o/
- Your MP3 quality could be better, here's a 192kbps version. (Taken from Quite Cynical's mapset.)
- 00:13:594 (1) - Pls snap.
- 00:51:672 (4) - 00:53:210 (3) - I feel like these circles should be emphasized since they land where that little chord hits in the music and because you emphasized it at 00:37:826 (3) - 00:43:980 (1) - 00:50:133 (3) - and 00:54:749 (1) -
- Topic about sliders like - 01:14:749 (3) - 01:20:903 (3) - 01:27:057 (3) -have been raised in the beatmap management forums and I just want to give my opinion on them.
First of all, sliders like these aren't new, I'm assuming the issue is that the "glitched" part of it is not visible and can supposedly lead to sliderbreaks.
Here's the thing though, the slider follow circle area is so massive that even if i sit at the edge of the sliderball the entire time, and keep a constant speed through the glitched part, i still survive without any sliderbreaks.
Also, once a player notices that the slider does weird shit on the first one, they'll be prepared for the next two, so I really don't see the issue in them in terms of playability.
Moving on, - 01:32:057 (1,2,3) - I feel like this whole pattern should be moved a bit further from six, it helps with readability and emphasis imo.
- 01:32:633 (1) - Some hitsounding here to emphasize the "loudening" (xd) of the song would be nice.
- 01:53:595 (3) - Move this to 287|209? 2 and 4 are a little too close for comfort imo and I think that this looks much nicer.
- 01:53:980 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - why so many NC's
- 02:15:326 (2) - Comparing this to 02:15:133 (1) - , I feel like 2 would make much more sense as 2 circles, since the 2 distinct drum hits that are masked by the wub sound on 1 are much more audible on 2, due to the lack of the wub sound of course.
- 02:28:307 (2) - Unsnapped?
- 02:29:749 (2) - Aaaa pls find a way to compliment that hit on the blue tick, maybe shorten by a tick, move it so it starts on the blue tick, and add a circle to the white tick?
- 02:30:566 (1) - Something really gimmicky you can do here is making this a double, with a circle on the white tick as well. It'll compliment a super quiet beat and help with accuracy.
- 02:33:210 (4,5) - It'd make for a good triple if you put a circle in between these to compliment the hit inbetween them.
- 02:35:903 (2) - Same as what I said above about the hit on the blue tick, I may have missed other times this happened so if you know of any others please fix them as well.
- 02:36:720 (1) - Same as what I said above about the double.
- 02:36:720 (1,1,2) - I'm a big fan of this.
- 02:42:057 (2) - Same as what I said above about the hit on the blue tick.
- 02:42:874 (1) - Same as the double lol, I'm gonna stop listing these, if you find other places with these same placements, pls adjust them accordingly.
- 02:45:518 (4,5) - You should know. xd
- 03:04:172 (4,5,6) - Is there a reason why the spacing isn't consistent? If not pls fix.
- 05:57:057 (1,2) - I don't understand what you're trying to compliment with 2, but it's pretty awkward. I'd just delete 2 and if there's actually something there, it's so negligible that it should just be complimented by the sliderend. I hear what you're trying to hit at 05:58:210 (1,2) - and the rest though.
- 07:10:518 (1,1) - This is definitely my personal opinion but I feel like the ending would be a lot more ominous if you ended with the sliderend and not a circle, I don't know why though lol it just works.
- There might be more unsnapped sliders beware, I'll edit this post if I run into more.
Nice map, GL o/
Topic Starter
as far as improvements go, some uppity guys with sticks up their asses replacing their spines will tell you to be less casual and more formal, but fuck 'em, mapping and modding is, and should be, fun, and there's nothing like a fun conversational mod to get the creative juices flowing. Everyone's too rigid nowadays, maaaaan, and they know fuck all because they limit themselves to their comfy little bubble with the simple basic concepts that fit the Double-Damocles meta of PP mapping and qualification phases. Break the chains, etc etc.Spaghetti wrote:
[General][lamentations]
- Your MP3 quality could be better, here's a 192kbps version. (Taken from Quite Cynical's mapset.) This is an upscaled mp3.
Let me know if there's anything I can improve modding-wise, going for BN of course.
- 00:13:594 (1) - Pls snap. Pls yes
- 00:51:672 (4) - 00:53:210 (3) - I feel like these circles should be emphasized since they land where that little chord hits in the music and because you emphasized it at 00:37:826 (3) - 00:43:980 (1) - 00:50:133 (3) - and 00:54:749 (1) - The clicks are following two different patterns. While the music does indeed have the same instrument at those points, it is much weaker.
- Topic about sliders like - 01:14:749 (3) - 01:20:903 (3) - 01:27:057 (3) -have been raised in the beatmap management forums and I just want to give my opinion on them.
First of all, sliders like these aren't new (I know they're not), I'm assuming the issue is that the "glitched" part of it is not visible and can supposedly lead to sliderbreaks.
Here's the thing though, the slider follow circle area is so massive that even if i sit at the edge of the sliderball the entire time, and keep a constant speed through the glitched part, i still survive without any sliderbreaks.
Also, once a player notices that the slider does weird shit on the first one, they'll be prepared for the next two, so I really don't see the issue in them in terms of playability.
The thing is, these sliders have two big functions to them.
They are Unpredictable on first playthrough. This is penchantly unrankable and always has been. I've never been a fan of this rule. It's inane and boring and needlessly limiting to force mappers to assume that players will only play a map once. But on the other hand, maps shouldn't need to be memorized to be played. This is barely worth considering, in my eyes: They are the only 3 super-long bass sliders and every one of them has a glitch bit near the end. It's extremely predictable on secondary playthroughs because they are incredibly memorable. Out of all the plays, I'm sure that players remember these three sliders alongside the kiai and wub sections as the only memorable parts of the map. Nobody remembers the other bits quite as clearly - "that weird jumpy bit before the chorus?" for example.
On the other hand, they are Completely playable on their first playthrough. They are designed to be a bit surprising, but no player that is not currently having a spontaneous seizure is going to sliderbreak on them, in which case they have bigger issues to deal with.
Due to both of these factors, I'm of the opinion that fuck it, they're cool, they're fine. They shouldn't set a precedent and they shouldn't give mappers leave to copy it "because shiirn did it why can't i?". There are extenuating factors that outweigh the cons here, to me.
Moving on,- 01:32:057 (1,2,3) - I feel like this whole pattern should be moved a bit further from six, it helps with readability and emphasis imo. Disagree. Its closeness to 6 helps emphasize how big the spacing jump is for 1,2,3.
- 01:32:633 (1) - Some hitsounding here to emphasize the "loudening" (xd) of the song would be nice. ehhhhhh
- 01:53:595 (3) - Move this to 287|209? 2 and 4 are a little too close for comfort imo and I think that this looks much nicer. sure why not, not exactly where you said because no
- 01:53:980 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - why so many NC's why not
- 02:15:326 (2) - Comparing this to 02:15:133 (1) - , I feel like 2 would make much more sense as 2 circles, since the 2 distinct drum hits that are masked by the wub sound on 1 are much more audible on 2, due to the lack of the wub sound of course. Disagree again. The 1/4 sliders here actually disconnect the drums from the player. I know it's a weird concept, but even when I'm mapping the drums I don't want the drums to be the focus.
- 02:28:307 (2) - Unsnapped? what the fuck even is this game
- 02:29:749 (2) - Aaaa pls find a way to compliment that hit on the blue tick, maybe shorten by a tick, move it so it starts on the blue tick, and add a circle to the white tick? NOT FOLLOWING THE DRUMS FUCK THE DRUMS LALALALALALAA
- 02:30:566 (1) - Something really gimmicky you can do here is making this a double, with a circle on the white tick as well. It'll compliment a super quiet beat and help with accuracy. Fuck gimmicking this. There is no beat on the white tick. And I'm not going to force one.
- 02:33:210 (4,5) - It'd make for a good triple if you put a circle in between these to compliment the hit inbetween them. Again, not following the god damn drums >.<
- 02:35:903 (2) - Same as what I said above about the hit on the blue tick, I may have missed other times this happened so if you know of any others please fix them as well. Ain't shit to fix mate! They're staying the way they are.
- 02:36:720 (1) - Same as what I said above about the double. Ain't shit to fix mate! They're staying the way they are.
- 02:36:720 (1,1,2) - I'm a big fan of this. Hi a big fan of this i'm dad
- 02:42:057 (2) - Same as what I said above about the hit on the blue tick. I'm going to ignore these from now on.
- 02:42:874 (1) - Same as the double lol, I'm gonna stop listing these, if you find other places with these same placements, pls adjust them accordingly.
- 02:45:518 (4,5) - You should know. xd
- 03:04:172 (4,5,6) - Is there a reason why the spacing isn't consistent? If not pls fix. To have 5 be directly behind 2 and still have increased movement. The exact spacing is fine, it increases over time and curves interestingly.
- 05:57:057 (1,2) - I don't understand what you're trying to compliment with 2, but it's pretty awkward. I'd just delete 2 and if there's actually something there, it's so negligible that it should just be complimented by the sliderend. I hear what you're trying to hit at 05:58:210 (1,2) - and the rest though. Those 2s are the entire reason the chorus is the chorus. If you can hear the second one and beyond, it should be obvious why the first one is this way even if it's a little softer. The chorus has more advanced and swingy slider movement and the addition of those 2s to make the rhythm even more complex. It's a perfect fit for the kiai.
- 07:10:518 (1,1) - This is definitely my personal opinion but I feel like the ending would be a lot more ominous if you ended with the sliderend and not a circle, I don't know why though lol it just works. You know what? Fuck it sure, I was getting whiny bitch complaints that the suddenly extremely slow slider was unreadable anyway. This fixes all the issues.
- There might be more unsnapped sliders beware, I'll edit this post if I run into more.
Nice map, GL o/
>Upscaled MP3
What's an upscaled MP3?
I decided to buy the album, cause I enjoyed this song enough. The screenshot is a comparison of the waveforms of a FLAC, a freshly transcoded 192kbps MP3, the one Spaghetti linked, and the file you have currently. The top two are mine, the bottom two yours and Spaghetti's. The two 192's are more or less the same. The 128 you have currently really isn't much worse either, though, so whether you take the 192 or not probably doesn't matter.
What's an upscaled MP3?
I decided to buy the album, cause I enjoyed this song enough. The screenshot is a comparison of the waveforms of a FLAC, a freshly transcoded 192kbps MP3, the one Spaghetti linked, and the file you have currently. The top two are mine, the bottom two yours and Spaghetti's. The two 192's are more or less the same. The 128 you have currently really isn't much worse either, though, so whether you take the 192 or not probably doesn't matter.
Topic Starter
That's what i get for not comparing them side-by-side, i guess. I'll look into upping the quality.
EDIT: listening to the FLAC, 192, and 128, the quality difference is negligible. The bass is a bit stronger, but it's already plenty deep in 128kbps.
EDIT: listening to the FLAC, 192, and 128, the quality difference is negligible. The bass is a bit stronger, but it's already plenty deep in 128kbps.
Shiirn asked me my opinion toward sliders that Beatmap Management thread itself discussing, personally im fine with that, just a bit worry due the overlapping to slider's bodies but yes its playable and the shapes fit to the music
Good map and SB shiirn good luck for push forward the map
Good map and SB shiirn good luck for push forward the map
Topic Starter
no shit, sb is not updated in time with the map
really cool map!
I don't really get the issue with the "glitch" sliders, like do people actually sliderbreak on them??
Sure they might surprise you on the first playthrough, but after the first one the other ones are pretty obvious. Even if you are surprised, I don't see how you can actually sliderbreak on them considering the slider itself is very slow.
Anyway, this map was a ton of fun. Good luck!
I don't really get the issue with the "glitch" sliders, like do people actually sliderbreak on them??
Sure they might surprise you on the first playthrough, but after the first one the other ones are pretty obvious. Even if you are surprised, I don't see how you can actually sliderbreak on them considering the slider itself is very slow.
Anyway, this map was a ton of fun. Good luck!
This is a pretty good song at the start then wub wub hit me too hard
[lamentations of the past]
01:40:710 (3) - I feel spacing here is slight close. You have the consistency of 1.8 with 01:39:556 (2,1,2) - then go to 1.65 Whatever works tbh it feels relatively the same but I see what you're getting at
02:15:903 (2) - I'm surprised this isn't made as a straight slider, give me your reasoning as to why that is http://puu.sh/qecLR/5a896b52ff.jpg
Music to me represents more of a straight than a curve
02:16:480 (4) - Going with what you have previously. The sound can be represented to use those red anchor points for the zig zag effects here such as 02:17:730 (3) -
03:35:326 (1) - holy shit somebody ripped off the lugia theme song
Other than that, pretty hawt stuff
02:15:903 (2) - I'm surprised this isn't made as a straight slider, give me your reasoning as to why that is http://puu.sh/qecLR/5a896b52ff.jpg
Music to me represents more of a straight than a curve
02:16:480 (4) - Going with what you have previously. The sound can be represented to use those red anchor points for the zig zag effects here such as 02:17:730 (3) -
03:35:326 (1) - holy shit somebody ripped off the lugia theme song
Other than that, pretty hawt stuff
Topic Starter
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
epilepsy warning pls
00:03:211 (1,2,1,2) - how come these are overlapping eachother?
01:20:133 (1,2) - why are these 3/4 when the ones before were 1/1 circles?
05:45:326 (1) - snap plis
00:03:211 (1,2,1,2) - how come these are overlapping eachother?
01:20:133 (1,2) - why are these 3/4 when the ones before were 1/1 circles?
05:45:326 (1) - snap plis
Topic Starter
the map graved literally 8 seconds before i applied all except the 3/4 slider thing
also some minor fixing and 0.04x distance snap aesthetic errors
also some minor fixing and 0.04x distance snap aesthetic errors
bub 1
yea wots up -
probably gonna pop this since those sliders haven't changed, and by definition of burai they're unrankable
edit: yea pop
probably gonna pop this since those sliders haven't changed, and by definition of burai they're unrankable
edit: yea pop
Topic Starter
I've asked the question up the totem pole and have never been given a satisfactory answer; as they do not actually affect the speed of the slider and do not cause the player to miss unless they have a seizure mid-vibration (And in that case, they have bigger shit to worry about). They technically break the letter of the rule, but do not break the intention of it.
Maps have had wiggle sliders and been ranked with fairly low amounts of fanfare for years, peppy's one post from three years ago on a single map only shows up sporadically and has never really stopped anything. Monstrata's kyouran is the first example off the top of my head of an obvious wiggle slider, I'm sure with a bit of digging more examples can be made.
Maps have had wiggle sliders and been ranked with fairly low amounts of fanfare for years, peppy's one post from three years ago on a single map only shows up sporadically and has never really stopped anything. Monstrata's kyouran is the first example off the top of my head of an obvious wiggle slider, I'm sure with a bit of digging more examples can be made.
I've been told there is a "change" to the ranking criteria coming this weekend. If it fits the new rule so be it and rebubble it. For now, it's unrankable and will be treated as such.
IRC
2016-08-27 01:29 Shiirn: soooooo
2016-08-27 01:29 Shiirn: should i ask spaghetti for a rebubble and see if i can get a 3rd bn
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: hi
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: what map
2016-08-27 01:29 Shiirn: presuming you're the second
2016-08-27 01:29 Shiirn: cherry blossoms explode
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: idk its still risky
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: because we are aware that its breaking the RC
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: but still do it
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: the word, not the spirit, of the rule
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: the intent is to avoid sliders that defy player expectations in an unnatural or unfair way
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: this does not do that
2016-08-27 01:30 Stjpa: hmm
2016-08-27 01:30 Stjpa: what did Irre say when u asked him?
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: the rule is worded to just overkill stop every possible way
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: uhhh
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: i never asked irreversible or if i did i don't remember his answer
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: kek
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: did u ask oko about it?
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: oko is fine with it
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: o
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: ok then im not afraid LOL
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: oko was one of the reasons i wanted to rank it in the first place
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: because he said he thought it was a viable usage
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: it truly is
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: like ask him right now
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: 1 sec
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: but u still wanna make a warning in the description tho
2016-08-27 01:34 Shiirn: sec
2016-08-27 01:34 Shiirn: t/471752&start=0
2016-08-27 01:37 Stjpa: so its 50/50
2016-08-27 01:38 Stjpa: should probably let the retarded community decide whether its fine or not
2016-08-27 01:39 Shiirn: hahaa
2016-08-27 01:39 Shiirn: if anyone even notices
2016-08-27 01:39 Shiirn: i'm writing the disclaimer
2016-08-27 01:40 Stjpa: i just hope it doesnt escalate when peppy hears of it
2016-08-27 01:40 Stjpa: lol
2016-08-27 01:46 Shiirn: After the first break, there are three extended sliders who very briefly (for 200 milliseconds) vibrate in ways that are not readily apparent at first glance. This formally breaks the "No wiggle sliders" or "No unreadable changes in slider shape" or "No changes to slider velocity during the slider proper" rules, whichever you prefer to label it as. But I believe that due to the extremely short duration, they do not impact gameplay whatsoever and ... (message truncated)
2016-08-27 01:46 Shiirn: message truncated
2016-08-27 01:46 Shiirn: LEL
2016-08-27 01:46 Shiirn: http://puu.sh/qPFHK/9ca401fdc1.png
2016-08-27 01:47 Stjpa: nice
2016-08-27 01:47 Shiirn: am i an eloquent son of a bitch or what
2016-08-27 01:48 Stjpa: no lol
2016-08-27 01:48 Stjpa: warning could be shorter but whatever
2016-08-27 01:48 Shiirn:
2016-08-27 01:48 Stjpa: sometimes the way u space confuses me
2016-08-27 01:49 Stjpa: like 02:55:903 (1,2,3) - compared to 02:57:057 (1,2) -
2016-08-27 01:49 Shiirn: u wanna know why honey
2016-08-27 01:49 Shiirn: because distance literally doesn't matter at 1/1 timing unless it's like cross-screen shit
2016-08-27 01:49 Stjpa: good2know
2016-08-27 01:49 Shiirn: there is no real feedback, as a player, for playing a 1/1 spaced anywhere from like
2016-08-27 01:49 Stjpa: ima consistency bitch, so eh
2016-08-27 01:50 Shiirn: 100 to 400 pixels apart
2016-08-27 01:50 Shiirn: any shorter and the LACK of distance feels apparent
2016-08-27 01:50 Shiirn: and further and THEN you feel the distance
2016-08-27 01:50 Shiirn: i'm a big-picture sort of mapper
2016-08-27 01:50 Stjpa: i realized that
2016-08-27 01:51 Shiirn: i don't care about the niggling details of each note compared to the other; i care about the impression and image the entire section gives BECAUSE of those details
2016-08-27 01:52 Stjpa: feels almost like i dont even need to check anything
2016-08-27 01:52 Stjpa: lol
2016-08-27 01:53 Shiirn: well it was checked by spaghetti and me that few days ago
2016-08-27 01:53 Shiirn: and i cleaned up most of, if not all, the readily apparent and small stuff
2016-08-27 01:54 Shiirn: and idc what the bn test says, (ok well i do), but i know that if i check my own stuff really hard and feel it's ready, it's probably ready
2016-08-27 01:54 Stjpa: i wish more people would check their own stuff
2016-08-27 01:54 Stjpa: sometimes its horrible
2016-08-27 01:55 Shiirn: not many people can check their own stuff
2016-08-27 01:55 Shiirn: i can drop my mapping viewpoint and swap to a modding viewpoint at will and mod my own maps as if i've never seen them before
2016-08-27 01:55 Shiirn: or at least, that's what i try to do
2016-08-27 01:55 Stjpa: man, today a map i bubbled got dq'd because of 1 missing hitsound and when i re-check it had like 5x more hitsound errors
2016-08-27 01:55 Shiirn: nice
2016-08-27 01:55 Stjpa: i dont even know how thats possible
2016-08-27 01:56 Shiirn: hitsound errors are always the most annoying ones
2016-08-27 01:56 Stjpa: 06:00:518 (4) - claps suck so hard for these sounds
2016-08-27 01:56 Stjpa: would rather use a clock tick hitsound for that
2016-08-27 01:57 Shiirn: really?
2016-08-27 01:57 Shiirn: hm
2016-08-27 01:57 Shiirn: i mean
2016-08-27 01:57 Shiirn: i guess
2016-08-27 01:58 Stjpa: i can give u one and u try out
2016-08-27 01:58 Shiirn: sure
2016-08-27 01:58 Shiirn: it can't just
2016-08-27 01:58 Shiirn: replace custom2softclap though
2016-08-27 01:58 Stjpa: use a special green line for it
2016-08-27 01:58 Stjpa: should work?
2016-08-27 01:59 Shiirn: cuz that's used04:19:364 (3) - in this section
2016-08-27 01:59 Shiirn: yeah
2016-08-27 01:59 i'd need to add inheriteds for *every clap*
2016-08-27 01:59 Shiirn: so let me see
2016-08-27 01:59 Stjpa: http://puu.sh/qPGw0/b002cac101.wav
2016-08-27 01:59 Stjpa: not exactly a clock tick sound, but should still fit better than a clap
2016-08-27 02:03 Stjpa: and epilepsy warning is still not enabled btw
2016-08-27 02:03 Shiirn: i really dont think it needs to be
2016-08-27 02:03 Shiirn: there is no flashing
2016-08-27 02:03 Shiirn: or strobing
2016-08-27 02:04 Stjpa: 05:37:249 - dont tell me that this isnt a flash
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: a single flash or fades don't cause epilepsy risks
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: a single flash
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: is not an epilepsy risk
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: epilepsy is about strobing lights
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: source: an old mapper friend of mind has/had epilepsy and we've discussed this many times
2016-08-27 02:06 Stjpa: every little thing can cause epilepsy triggers
2016-08-27 02:06 Stjpa: its just a warning anyways
2016-08-27 02:06 Shiirn: having it when the map doesn't need it
2016-08-27 02:06 Shiirn: is DQable
2016-08-27 02:06 Shiirn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy
2016-08-27 02:06 Stjpa: i know that trusting the internet is not always the best thing but "Certain video games or TV broadcasts containing rapid flashes or alternating patterns of different colors."
2016-08-27 02:07 Shiirn: Version 2.0, produced in 2008, specifies that content should not flash more than 3 times in any 1 second period. However it does allow flashing above this rate if the flashing is below the "general and red flashing thresholds". (Basically, it is OK to flash more than 3 times in a 1-second period if the flashing is small enough or low contrast enough.) [12]
2016-08-27 02:07 Shiirn: The Act says that pages shall be designed to avoid causing the screen to flicker with a frequency greater than 2 Hz and less than 55 Hz
2016-08-27 02:08 Shiirn: photosensetive epilepsy is a well-recognized and well-documented ailment
2016-08-27 02:08 Shiirn: and in every case, is caused by REPEATED flashes of high frequency
2016-08-27 02:09 Shiirn: however
2016-08-27 02:09 Shiirn: if you outright insist I enable it, and the map gets DQ'd, I'll laugh and tell you "i told you so" and we'll have a nice german beer and hope you'll help me requalify the map
2016-08-27 02:09 Shiirn: sound fair?
2016-08-27 02:09 Stjpa: then keep it disabled
2016-08-27 02:09 Stjpa: :v
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: :u
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: ok
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: like
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: my old buddy ziin
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: literally designed storyboards with strobing that were designed to avoid inducing epilepsy
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: 05:55:710 - this is pretty much the only thing that still worries me a bit
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: but fine
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: but anyway
2016-08-27 02:12 Shiirn: oh the butterfly?
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: who the fuck plays osu with epilepsy
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: yeah
2016-08-27 02:12 Shiirn: it's not large enough
2016-08-27 02:13 Shiirn: photosensetive epilepsy is caused by flashing in the large proportion of vision
2016-08-27 02:13 Shiirn: it's caused by screens because of the light they give off
2016-08-27 02:13 Stjpa: 06:20:807 - this is probably on the edge as well
2016-08-27 02:13 Shiirn: and most indoor rooms are not well-lit enough
2016-08-27 02:13 Stjpa: well when u sit in front of ur computer its not that smal when the whole screen flashes like 06:20:807 - here
2016-08-27 02:14 Shiirn: yeah that's the only really iffy point and even then it's two flashes, not 3 (which doesn't cause seizures in 95% of cases, iirc)
2016-08-27 02:14 Stjpa: so hows the hitsound
2016-08-27 02:14 Stjpa: > 95%
2016-08-27 02:14 Shiirn: havent checked hitsoun
2016-08-27 02:14 Shiirn: i got triggered by p/5434997
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: 3 causes 95%
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: 2 is like
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: never
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: LOL
2016-08-27 02:15 Stjpa: o
2016-08-27 02:15 Stjpa: nvm
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: like
2016-08-27 02:15 Stjpa: tfw u are not native english and dont understand everything as u should
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: i know more about epilepsy than most people because of ziin and his friends
2016-08-27 02:16 Shiirn: lemme check the hitsound real fast fam
2016-08-27 02:16 Shiirn: ACTION scrolls up
2016-08-27 02:17 Shiirn: HAHHA
2016-08-27 02:17 Shiirn: I MADE IT NORMAL-HITCLAP2
2016-08-27 02:17 Shiirn: SUCK IT, ORGANIZATION
2016-08-27 02:17 Stjpa: kek
2016-08-27 02:19 Shiirn: mmm
2016-08-27 02:19 Shiirn: its a bit high pitched and doesn't have the impact i want
2016-08-27 02:19 Shiirn: with softclap it's got high impact
2016-08-27 02:20 Stjpa: fine
2016-08-27 02:20 Shiirn: i was more implying
2016-08-27 02:21 Shiirn: if u had a different hitsound we could try that
2016-08-27 02:21 Shiirn: than "suggestion rejected"
2016-08-27 02:21 Shiirn: cuz yeah softclap is kind of TOO much
2016-08-27 02:22 Stjpa: i dont think i have another one that could fit
2016-08-27 02:23 Shiirn: o
2016-08-27 02:23 Shiirn: ok
2016-08-27 02:23 Stjpa: but regarding strobing, Hours doesnt have quick strobing as well but has epilepsy warning
2016-08-27 02:23 Stjpa: jesus fuck this topic
2016-08-27 02:24 Shiirn: what topic
2016-08-27 02:24 Stjpa: epilepsy warning
2016-08-27 02:24 Shiirn: ??
2016-08-27 02:25 Stjpa: im just comparing ur storyboard to this
2016-08-27 02:25 Stjpa: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/622407 SON OF KICK - Hours ft. Lady Leshurr & Paigey Cakey [Gangsta Collab]]
2016-08-27 02:26 Shiirn: the rapid color changing and flashing of the skyline in the chorus
2016-08-27 02:26 Shiirn: probably
2016-08-27 02:26 Stjpa: i dont think its because of the color changing
2016-08-27 02:26 Stjpa: probably more like because of the rain drops and these lazer thingies
2016-08-27 02:27 Shiirn: well maybe
2016-08-27 02:27 Shiirn: i mean can u get me that i know it's not an epilepsy trigger storyboard and i dont want a bullshit reason DQ 5-6 days in
2016-08-27 02:27 Shiirn: can u get my concern there
2016-08-27 02:27 Stjpa: ye
2016-08-27 02:41 Shiirn: OH
2016-08-27 02:41 Shiirn: p/5270994
2016-08-27 02:41 Shiirn: IRRE SAID IT'S OK THERE
2016-08-27 02:42 Stjpa: why are u sending me this
2016-08-27 02:43 Shiirn: ...
2016-08-27 02:43 Shiirn: because you asked about whether i showed irre
2016-08-27 02:43 Shiirn: and i guess i did
2016-08-27 02:43 Shiirn: :d
2016-08-27 02:43 Stjpa: oh
2016-08-27 02:43 Stjpa: well i asked irre about the epilepsy thing few mins ago
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: and he said that enabling it wouldnt hurt because its just a warning after all
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: o?
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: and nothing gamebreaking
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: yeah
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: okay
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: i just dont want it DQ'd over it
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: oko doesnt answer
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: thing is
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: it can be dqable if it doesnt fit at all
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: http://puu.sh/qPJ6G/a6afd52186.png
2016-08-27 02:45 Shiirn: oops
2016-08-27 02:45 Stjpa: huh
2016-08-27 02:45 Shiirn: didnt mean to quote that
2016-08-27 02:45 Shiirn: FUCK
2016-08-27 02:45 Stjpa: also
2016-08-27 02:45 Stjpa: if the map only gets dqd because of the epilepsy warning u should be glad about that
2016-08-27 02:46 Stjpa: getting it dqd because of missing warning and wiggle would fuck us all
2016-08-27 02:46 Shiirn: the wiggle is just
2016-08-27 02:46 Shiirn: peppy wiggling his dick about
2016-08-27 02:46 Shiirn: he won't de-bn anyone or do anything but raise a brief, albeit scary, fuss
2016-08-27 02:49 Stjpa: well let me ask spaghetti about it
2016-08-27 02:49 Shiirn: haha
2016-08-27 02:49 Shiirn: i mean it's fine with me
2016-08-27 02:54 Stjpa: he says that there should be one too
2016-08-27 02:57 Shiirn: yeah
2016-08-27 02:57 Shiirn: i havent updated it
2016-08-27 02:57 Shiirn: but it's done
2016-08-27 02:57 Stjpa: in all honest
2016-08-27 02:57 Stjpa: who the fuck takes a look on epilepsy warning
2016-08-27 02:57 Stjpa: and googles it
2016-08-27 02:57 Stjpa: except Ascendance
2016-08-27 02:58 Shiirn: I DON'T KNOW
2016-08-27 02:58 Shiirn: is it really being paranoid if there ARE people out to get you?
2016-08-27 02:58 Stjpa:
2016-08-27 02:58 Stjpa: not only ur maps are questional at times, even ur storyboards
2016-08-27 02:58 Stjpa: thats an...uhm..archievement
2016-08-27 02:58 Shiirn: i mean
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: if people question
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: that means they're trying to understand
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: and thats better, for me, than people just mindlessly consuming shitty pp maps
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: if they ask "why?" then some are going to try to figure out why
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: and those people learn
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: and ive shared my knowledge and experience that way
2016-08-27 03:00 Stjpa: inb4 in half a year im a pro extra mapper because of u
2016-08-27 03:00 Shiirn: just don't copy my weirder maps that even i'm not entirely sure on
2016-08-27 03:00 Shiirn: yukari and strike? fucking great
2016-08-27 03:00 Shiirn: routing? bit risky
2016-08-27 03:00 Shiirn: mushi? pls dont
2016-08-27 03:01 Stjpa: strike is awesome
2016-08-27 03:01 Stjpa: u should make more pp maps
2016-08-27 03:01 Stjpa: :^)
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: pls
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: my wip map
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: is 4.53* and gives 170pp
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: and plays like a 5.7* extra
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: HAHAHAHA
2016-08-27 03:02 Stjpa: i think of all the maps u created strike is the easiest one
2016-08-27 03:02 Stjpa: from the newer maps ofc
2016-08-27 03:03 Shiirn: strike is extremely flow and momentum based without having difficult rhythms
2016-08-27 03:03 Shiirn: so yeah that makes sense
2016-08-27 03:03 Shiirn: yukari has three seperate kinds of flow and momentum-based mapping and transitions so it's a harder map but still gives good pp
2016-08-27 03:03 Shiirn: routing is....routing
2016-08-27 03:03 Stjpa: yukari is really hard to acc for some reason
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: it has higher OD than strike
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: and has more slightly offbeat rhythms
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: strike is on-rhythm 90% of the time
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: yukari is closer to 60-70% iirc
2016-08-27 03:04 Stjpa: makes sense
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: i do agree that as far as modern meta goes
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: strike and yukari are my best examples
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: the rest are just anti-meta as fuck
2016-08-27 03:05 Stjpa: well i disagree with yukaris flow tho
2016-08-27 03:05 Shiirn: and i probably should do something meta to keep people on their toes
2016-08-27 03:05 Stjpa: haha
2016-08-27 03:05 Shiirn: well yukari is slightly different because
2016-08-27 03:05 Shiirn: i know the lyrics and know the story and wanted emotional impact for it when possible
2016-08-27 03:06 Shiirn: one of my japanese fans told me he had trouble FCing yukari despite being 4-digit because he always teared up in the middle because of how emotional the song gets
2016-08-27 03:06 Stjpa: jesus
2016-08-27 03:06 Shiirn: strike is just a soundscape
2016-08-27 03:06 Shiirn: it sounds really neat and carries a "vibe" but not a "story"
2016-08-27 03:07 Stjpa: i wanna map songs like strike
2016-08-27 03:07 Stjpa: but i never tried mapping an extra yet
2016-08-27 03:07 Stjpa: or only did it for the first few seconds
2016-08-27 03:07 Shiirn: mmm
2016-08-27 03:07 Shiirn: extras are the only way i can really bring out the feel of the song most of the time
2016-08-27 03:08 Shiirn: depends on the song, ofc
2016-08-27 03:08 Shiirn: skyshifter vip and cherry blossoms are both only insane
2016-08-27 03:08 Stjpa: well its because u are not extremely limited there
2016-08-27 03:08 Stjpa: there will never be a song where u can express the feel of a song better with lower diffs than with higher ones
2016-08-27 03:09 Shiirn: theoretically, anyway
2016-08-27 03:11 Stjpa: i found a lower pitched hitsound i think
2016-08-27 03:11 Stjpa: http://puu.sh/qPKA6/1651693e99.wav
2016-08-27 03:12 Shiirn: testing
2016-08-27 03:12 Shiirn: this is just softer
2016-08-27 03:12 Shiirn: :C
2016-08-27 03:13 Stjpa: u are really picky :^)
2016-08-27 03:15 Shiirn: i mean kind of because i feel softclap is ok
2016-08-27 03:15 Shiirn: and softer = no impact
2016-08-27 03:15 Shiirn: the entire reason the kiai has clicks there when the pre-kiai doesn't is for impact
2016-08-27 03:15 Shiirn: because those little beats don't exist pre-kiai and i feel they're an important distinction for the kiai
2016-08-27 03:16 Stjpa: i wonder if u could 04:41:575 (2,3) - seperate them a bit since they are not exactly mapped to the same sound
2016-08-27 03:16 Stjpa: that would also make it a bit different to 04:42:057 (1,2,3,4,1) -
2016-08-27 03:17 Shiirn: http://puu.sh/qPKTe/8ef6592cd7.jpg
2016-08-27 03:18 Stjpa: that would do the job ye
2016-08-27 03:20 Shiirn: 05:31:672 (1) - i should prolly change this
2016-08-27 03:20 Shiirn: cuz this is a bona fide wiggle slider
2016-08-27 03:20 Stjpa: 05:40:903 (2) - shouldnt this be NCd or something?
2016-08-27 03:21 Shiirn: ya
2016-08-27 03:21 Shiirn: nc'd
2016-08-27 03:22 Shiirn: good catch
2016-08-27 03:22 Stjpa: is every sv change supposed to be ncd
2016-08-27 03:22 Stjpa: or didnt u nc some on purpose
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: mmmm
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: the patterning is a bit weird but its meant to very closely follow the musical patterning
2016-08-27 03:23 Stjpa: 05:48:980 (2) - because of this
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: basically
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: when the wubs change from inner distortion to outer
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: it's a new combo
2016-08-27 03:24 Shiirn: it's hard to explain FUCK
2016-08-27 03:24 Stjpa: can imagine that xD
2016-08-27 03:24 Shiirn: I'm checking to make sure it's consistent though
2016-08-27 03:24 Stjpa: u probably mean less aggressive to a more aggressive sound?
2016-08-27 03:24 Shiirn: kind of yes
2016-08-27 03:25 Shiirn: but there are also "rolls of growls" in sets of three
2016-08-27 03:25 Shiirn: e.g.05:43:980 (1,2,3) -
2016-08-27 03:25 Shiirn: but in cases like 05:40:903 (1,2,1) - there's a new combo on that last one because it's part of the very-weak-sounding and thus not-worthy-of-NC 05:42:249 (2) -
2016-08-27 03:26 Shiirn: other than that the "rolling 3s" are consistent even in the kiai
2016-08-27 01:29 Shiirn: should i ask spaghetti for a rebubble and see if i can get a 3rd bn
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: hi
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: what map
2016-08-27 01:29 Shiirn: presuming you're the second
2016-08-27 01:29 Shiirn: cherry blossoms explode
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: idk its still risky
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: because we are aware that its breaking the RC
2016-08-27 01:29 Stjpa: but still do it
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: the word, not the spirit, of the rule
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: the intent is to avoid sliders that defy player expectations in an unnatural or unfair way
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: this does not do that
2016-08-27 01:30 Stjpa: hmm
2016-08-27 01:30 Stjpa: what did Irre say when u asked him?
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: the rule is worded to just overkill stop every possible way
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: uhhh
2016-08-27 01:30 Shiirn: i never asked irreversible or if i did i don't remember his answer
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: kek
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: did u ask oko about it?
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: oko is fine with it
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: o
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: ok then im not afraid LOL
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: oko was one of the reasons i wanted to rank it in the first place
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: because he said he thought it was a viable usage
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: it truly is
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: like ask him right now
2016-08-27 01:31 Shiirn: 1 sec
2016-08-27 01:31 Stjpa: but u still wanna make a warning in the description tho
2016-08-27 01:34 Shiirn: sec
2016-08-27 01:34 Shiirn: t/471752&start=0
2016-08-27 01:37 Stjpa: so its 50/50
2016-08-27 01:38 Stjpa: should probably let the retarded community decide whether its fine or not
2016-08-27 01:39 Shiirn: hahaa
2016-08-27 01:39 Shiirn: if anyone even notices
2016-08-27 01:39 Shiirn: i'm writing the disclaimer
2016-08-27 01:40 Stjpa: i just hope it doesnt escalate when peppy hears of it
2016-08-27 01:40 Stjpa: lol
2016-08-27 01:46 Shiirn: After the first break, there are three extended sliders who very briefly (for 200 milliseconds) vibrate in ways that are not readily apparent at first glance. This formally breaks the "No wiggle sliders" or "No unreadable changes in slider shape" or "No changes to slider velocity during the slider proper" rules, whichever you prefer to label it as. But I believe that due to the extremely short duration, they do not impact gameplay whatsoever and ... (message truncated)
2016-08-27 01:46 Shiirn: message truncated
2016-08-27 01:46 Shiirn: LEL
2016-08-27 01:46 Shiirn: http://puu.sh/qPFHK/9ca401fdc1.png
2016-08-27 01:47 Stjpa: nice
2016-08-27 01:47 Shiirn: am i an eloquent son of a bitch or what
2016-08-27 01:48 Stjpa: no lol
2016-08-27 01:48 Stjpa: warning could be shorter but whatever
2016-08-27 01:48 Shiirn:
2016-08-27 01:48 Stjpa: sometimes the way u space confuses me
2016-08-27 01:49 Stjpa: like 02:55:903 (1,2,3) - compared to 02:57:057 (1,2) -
2016-08-27 01:49 Shiirn: u wanna know why honey
2016-08-27 01:49 Shiirn: because distance literally doesn't matter at 1/1 timing unless it's like cross-screen shit
2016-08-27 01:49 Stjpa: good2know
2016-08-27 01:49 Shiirn: there is no real feedback, as a player, for playing a 1/1 spaced anywhere from like
2016-08-27 01:49 Stjpa: ima consistency bitch, so eh
2016-08-27 01:50 Shiirn: 100 to 400 pixels apart
2016-08-27 01:50 Shiirn: any shorter and the LACK of distance feels apparent
2016-08-27 01:50 Shiirn: and further and THEN you feel the distance
2016-08-27 01:50 Shiirn: i'm a big-picture sort of mapper
2016-08-27 01:50 Stjpa: i realized that
2016-08-27 01:51 Shiirn: i don't care about the niggling details of each note compared to the other; i care about the impression and image the entire section gives BECAUSE of those details
2016-08-27 01:52 Stjpa: feels almost like i dont even need to check anything
2016-08-27 01:52 Stjpa: lol
2016-08-27 01:53 Shiirn: well it was checked by spaghetti and me that few days ago
2016-08-27 01:53 Shiirn: and i cleaned up most of, if not all, the readily apparent and small stuff
2016-08-27 01:54 Shiirn: and idc what the bn test says, (ok well i do), but i know that if i check my own stuff really hard and feel it's ready, it's probably ready
2016-08-27 01:54 Stjpa: i wish more people would check their own stuff
2016-08-27 01:54 Stjpa: sometimes its horrible
2016-08-27 01:55 Shiirn: not many people can check their own stuff
2016-08-27 01:55 Shiirn: i can drop my mapping viewpoint and swap to a modding viewpoint at will and mod my own maps as if i've never seen them before
2016-08-27 01:55 Shiirn: or at least, that's what i try to do
2016-08-27 01:55 Stjpa: man, today a map i bubbled got dq'd because of 1 missing hitsound and when i re-check it had like 5x more hitsound errors
2016-08-27 01:55 Shiirn: nice
2016-08-27 01:55 Stjpa: i dont even know how thats possible
2016-08-27 01:56 Shiirn: hitsound errors are always the most annoying ones
2016-08-27 01:56 Stjpa: 06:00:518 (4) - claps suck so hard for these sounds
2016-08-27 01:56 Stjpa: would rather use a clock tick hitsound for that
2016-08-27 01:57 Shiirn: really?
2016-08-27 01:57 Shiirn: hm
2016-08-27 01:57 Shiirn: i mean
2016-08-27 01:57 Shiirn: i guess
2016-08-27 01:58 Stjpa: i can give u one and u try out
2016-08-27 01:58 Shiirn: sure
2016-08-27 01:58 Shiirn: it can't just
2016-08-27 01:58 Shiirn: replace custom2softclap though
2016-08-27 01:58 Stjpa: use a special green line for it
2016-08-27 01:58 Stjpa: should work?
2016-08-27 01:59 Shiirn: cuz that's used04:19:364 (3) - in this section
2016-08-27 01:59 Shiirn: yeah
2016-08-27 01:59 i'd need to add inheriteds for *every clap*
2016-08-27 01:59 Shiirn: so let me see
2016-08-27 01:59 Stjpa: http://puu.sh/qPGw0/b002cac101.wav
2016-08-27 01:59 Stjpa: not exactly a clock tick sound, but should still fit better than a clap
2016-08-27 02:03 Stjpa: and epilepsy warning is still not enabled btw
2016-08-27 02:03 Shiirn: i really dont think it needs to be
2016-08-27 02:03 Shiirn: there is no flashing
2016-08-27 02:03 Shiirn: or strobing
2016-08-27 02:04 Stjpa: 05:37:249 - dont tell me that this isnt a flash
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: a single flash or fades don't cause epilepsy risks
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: a single flash
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: is not an epilepsy risk
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: epilepsy is about strobing lights
2016-08-27 02:04 Shiirn: source: an old mapper friend of mind has/had epilepsy and we've discussed this many times
2016-08-27 02:06 Stjpa: every little thing can cause epilepsy triggers
2016-08-27 02:06 Stjpa: its just a warning anyways
2016-08-27 02:06 Shiirn: having it when the map doesn't need it
2016-08-27 02:06 Shiirn: is DQable
2016-08-27 02:06 Shiirn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy
2016-08-27 02:06 Stjpa: i know that trusting the internet is not always the best thing but "Certain video games or TV broadcasts containing rapid flashes or alternating patterns of different colors."
2016-08-27 02:07 Shiirn: Version 2.0, produced in 2008, specifies that content should not flash more than 3 times in any 1 second period. However it does allow flashing above this rate if the flashing is below the "general and red flashing thresholds". (Basically, it is OK to flash more than 3 times in a 1-second period if the flashing is small enough or low contrast enough.) [12]
2016-08-27 02:07 Shiirn: The Act says that pages shall be designed to avoid causing the screen to flicker with a frequency greater than 2 Hz and less than 55 Hz
2016-08-27 02:08 Shiirn: photosensetive epilepsy is a well-recognized and well-documented ailment
2016-08-27 02:08 Shiirn: and in every case, is caused by REPEATED flashes of high frequency
2016-08-27 02:09 Shiirn: however
2016-08-27 02:09 Shiirn: if you outright insist I enable it, and the map gets DQ'd, I'll laugh and tell you "i told you so" and we'll have a nice german beer and hope you'll help me requalify the map
2016-08-27 02:09 Shiirn: sound fair?
2016-08-27 02:09 Stjpa: then keep it disabled
2016-08-27 02:09 Stjpa: :v
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: :u
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: ok
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: like
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: my old buddy ziin
2016-08-27 02:10 Shiirn: literally designed storyboards with strobing that were designed to avoid inducing epilepsy
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: 05:55:710 - this is pretty much the only thing that still worries me a bit
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: but fine
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: but anyway
2016-08-27 02:12 Shiirn: oh the butterfly?
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: who the fuck plays osu with epilepsy
2016-08-27 02:12 Stjpa: yeah
2016-08-27 02:12 Shiirn: it's not large enough
2016-08-27 02:13 Shiirn: photosensetive epilepsy is caused by flashing in the large proportion of vision
2016-08-27 02:13 Shiirn: it's caused by screens because of the light they give off
2016-08-27 02:13 Stjpa: 06:20:807 - this is probably on the edge as well
2016-08-27 02:13 Shiirn: and most indoor rooms are not well-lit enough
2016-08-27 02:13 Stjpa: well when u sit in front of ur computer its not that smal when the whole screen flashes like 06:20:807 - here
2016-08-27 02:14 Shiirn: yeah that's the only really iffy point and even then it's two flashes, not 3 (which doesn't cause seizures in 95% of cases, iirc)
2016-08-27 02:14 Stjpa: so hows the hitsound
2016-08-27 02:14 Stjpa: > 95%
2016-08-27 02:14 Shiirn: havent checked hitsoun
2016-08-27 02:14 Shiirn: i got triggered by p/5434997
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: 3 causes 95%
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: 2 is like
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: never
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: LOL
2016-08-27 02:15 Stjpa: o
2016-08-27 02:15 Stjpa: nvm
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: like
2016-08-27 02:15 Stjpa: tfw u are not native english and dont understand everything as u should
2016-08-27 02:15 Shiirn: i know more about epilepsy than most people because of ziin and his friends
2016-08-27 02:16 Shiirn: lemme check the hitsound real fast fam
2016-08-27 02:16 Shiirn: ACTION scrolls up
2016-08-27 02:17 Shiirn: HAHHA
2016-08-27 02:17 Shiirn: I MADE IT NORMAL-HITCLAP2
2016-08-27 02:17 Shiirn: SUCK IT, ORGANIZATION
2016-08-27 02:17 Stjpa: kek
2016-08-27 02:19 Shiirn: mmm
2016-08-27 02:19 Shiirn: its a bit high pitched and doesn't have the impact i want
2016-08-27 02:19 Shiirn: with softclap it's got high impact
2016-08-27 02:20 Stjpa: fine
2016-08-27 02:20 Shiirn: i was more implying
2016-08-27 02:21 Shiirn: if u had a different hitsound we could try that
2016-08-27 02:21 Shiirn: than "suggestion rejected"
2016-08-27 02:21 Shiirn: cuz yeah softclap is kind of TOO much
2016-08-27 02:22 Stjpa: i dont think i have another one that could fit
2016-08-27 02:23 Shiirn: o
2016-08-27 02:23 Shiirn: ok
2016-08-27 02:23 Stjpa: but regarding strobing, Hours doesnt have quick strobing as well but has epilepsy warning
2016-08-27 02:23 Stjpa: jesus fuck this topic
2016-08-27 02:24 Shiirn: what topic
2016-08-27 02:24 Stjpa: epilepsy warning
2016-08-27 02:24 Shiirn: ??
2016-08-27 02:25 Stjpa: im just comparing ur storyboard to this
2016-08-27 02:25 Stjpa: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/622407 SON OF KICK - Hours ft. Lady Leshurr & Paigey Cakey [Gangsta Collab]]
2016-08-27 02:26 Shiirn: the rapid color changing and flashing of the skyline in the chorus
2016-08-27 02:26 Shiirn: probably
2016-08-27 02:26 Stjpa: i dont think its because of the color changing
2016-08-27 02:26 Stjpa: probably more like because of the rain drops and these lazer thingies
2016-08-27 02:27 Shiirn: well maybe
2016-08-27 02:27 Shiirn: i mean can u get me that i know it's not an epilepsy trigger storyboard and i dont want a bullshit reason DQ 5-6 days in
2016-08-27 02:27 Shiirn: can u get my concern there
2016-08-27 02:27 Stjpa: ye
2016-08-27 02:41 Shiirn: OH
2016-08-27 02:41 Shiirn: p/5270994
2016-08-27 02:41 Shiirn: IRRE SAID IT'S OK THERE
2016-08-27 02:42 Stjpa: why are u sending me this
2016-08-27 02:43 Shiirn: ...
2016-08-27 02:43 Shiirn: because you asked about whether i showed irre
2016-08-27 02:43 Shiirn: and i guess i did
2016-08-27 02:43 Shiirn: :d
2016-08-27 02:43 Stjpa: oh
2016-08-27 02:43 Stjpa: well i asked irre about the epilepsy thing few mins ago
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: and he said that enabling it wouldnt hurt because its just a warning after all
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: o?
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: and nothing gamebreaking
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: yeah
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: okay
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: i just dont want it DQ'd over it
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: oko doesnt answer
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: thing is
2016-08-27 02:44 Stjpa: it can be dqable if it doesnt fit at all
2016-08-27 02:44 Shiirn: http://puu.sh/qPJ6G/a6afd52186.png
2016-08-27 02:45 Shiirn: oops
2016-08-27 02:45 Stjpa: huh
2016-08-27 02:45 Shiirn: didnt mean to quote that
2016-08-27 02:45 Shiirn: FUCK
2016-08-27 02:45 Stjpa: also
2016-08-27 02:45 Stjpa: if the map only gets dqd because of the epilepsy warning u should be glad about that
2016-08-27 02:46 Stjpa: getting it dqd because of missing warning and wiggle would fuck us all
2016-08-27 02:46 Shiirn: the wiggle is just
2016-08-27 02:46 Shiirn: peppy wiggling his dick about
2016-08-27 02:46 Shiirn: he won't de-bn anyone or do anything but raise a brief, albeit scary, fuss
2016-08-27 02:49 Stjpa: well let me ask spaghetti about it
2016-08-27 02:49 Shiirn: haha
2016-08-27 02:49 Shiirn: i mean it's fine with me
2016-08-27 02:54 Stjpa: he says that there should be one too
2016-08-27 02:57 Shiirn: yeah
2016-08-27 02:57 Shiirn: i havent updated it
2016-08-27 02:57 Shiirn: but it's done
2016-08-27 02:57 Stjpa: in all honest
2016-08-27 02:57 Stjpa: who the fuck takes a look on epilepsy warning
2016-08-27 02:57 Stjpa: and googles it
2016-08-27 02:57 Stjpa: except Ascendance
2016-08-27 02:58 Shiirn: I DON'T KNOW
2016-08-27 02:58 Shiirn: is it really being paranoid if there ARE people out to get you?
2016-08-27 02:58 Stjpa:
2016-08-27 02:58 Stjpa: not only ur maps are questional at times, even ur storyboards
2016-08-27 02:58 Stjpa: thats an...uhm..archievement
2016-08-27 02:58 Shiirn: i mean
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: if people question
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: that means they're trying to understand
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: and thats better, for me, than people just mindlessly consuming shitty pp maps
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: if they ask "why?" then some are going to try to figure out why
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: and those people learn
2016-08-27 02:59 Shiirn: and ive shared my knowledge and experience that way
2016-08-27 03:00 Stjpa: inb4 in half a year im a pro extra mapper because of u
2016-08-27 03:00 Shiirn: just don't copy my weirder maps that even i'm not entirely sure on
2016-08-27 03:00 Shiirn: yukari and strike? fucking great
2016-08-27 03:00 Shiirn: routing? bit risky
2016-08-27 03:00 Shiirn: mushi? pls dont
2016-08-27 03:01 Stjpa: strike is awesome
2016-08-27 03:01 Stjpa: u should make more pp maps
2016-08-27 03:01 Stjpa: :^)
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: pls
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: my wip map
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: is 4.53* and gives 170pp
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: and plays like a 5.7* extra
2016-08-27 03:02 Shiirn: HAHAHAHA
2016-08-27 03:02 Stjpa: i think of all the maps u created strike is the easiest one
2016-08-27 03:02 Stjpa: from the newer maps ofc
2016-08-27 03:03 Shiirn: strike is extremely flow and momentum based without having difficult rhythms
2016-08-27 03:03 Shiirn: so yeah that makes sense
2016-08-27 03:03 Shiirn: yukari has three seperate kinds of flow and momentum-based mapping and transitions so it's a harder map but still gives good pp
2016-08-27 03:03 Shiirn: routing is....routing
2016-08-27 03:03 Stjpa: yukari is really hard to acc for some reason
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: it has higher OD than strike
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: and has more slightly offbeat rhythms
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: strike is on-rhythm 90% of the time
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: yukari is closer to 60-70% iirc
2016-08-27 03:04 Stjpa: makes sense
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: i do agree that as far as modern meta goes
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: strike and yukari are my best examples
2016-08-27 03:04 Shiirn: the rest are just anti-meta as fuck
2016-08-27 03:05 Stjpa: well i disagree with yukaris flow tho
2016-08-27 03:05 Shiirn: and i probably should do something meta to keep people on their toes
2016-08-27 03:05 Stjpa: haha
2016-08-27 03:05 Shiirn: well yukari is slightly different because
2016-08-27 03:05 Shiirn: i know the lyrics and know the story and wanted emotional impact for it when possible
2016-08-27 03:06 Shiirn: one of my japanese fans told me he had trouble FCing yukari despite being 4-digit because he always teared up in the middle because of how emotional the song gets
2016-08-27 03:06 Stjpa: jesus
2016-08-27 03:06 Shiirn: strike is just a soundscape
2016-08-27 03:06 Shiirn: it sounds really neat and carries a "vibe" but not a "story"
2016-08-27 03:07 Stjpa: i wanna map songs like strike
2016-08-27 03:07 Stjpa: but i never tried mapping an extra yet
2016-08-27 03:07 Stjpa: or only did it for the first few seconds
2016-08-27 03:07 Shiirn: mmm
2016-08-27 03:07 Shiirn: extras are the only way i can really bring out the feel of the song most of the time
2016-08-27 03:08 Shiirn: depends on the song, ofc
2016-08-27 03:08 Shiirn: skyshifter vip and cherry blossoms are both only insane
2016-08-27 03:08 Stjpa: well its because u are not extremely limited there
2016-08-27 03:08 Stjpa: there will never be a song where u can express the feel of a song better with lower diffs than with higher ones
2016-08-27 03:09 Shiirn: theoretically, anyway
2016-08-27 03:11 Stjpa: i found a lower pitched hitsound i think
2016-08-27 03:11 Stjpa: http://puu.sh/qPKA6/1651693e99.wav
2016-08-27 03:12 Shiirn: testing
2016-08-27 03:12 Shiirn: this is just softer
2016-08-27 03:12 Shiirn: :C
2016-08-27 03:13 Stjpa: u are really picky :^)
2016-08-27 03:15 Shiirn: i mean kind of because i feel softclap is ok
2016-08-27 03:15 Shiirn: and softer = no impact
2016-08-27 03:15 Shiirn: the entire reason the kiai has clicks there when the pre-kiai doesn't is for impact
2016-08-27 03:15 Shiirn: because those little beats don't exist pre-kiai and i feel they're an important distinction for the kiai
2016-08-27 03:16 Stjpa: i wonder if u could 04:41:575 (2,3) - seperate them a bit since they are not exactly mapped to the same sound
2016-08-27 03:16 Stjpa: that would also make it a bit different to 04:42:057 (1,2,3,4,1) -
2016-08-27 03:17 Shiirn: http://puu.sh/qPKTe/8ef6592cd7.jpg
2016-08-27 03:18 Stjpa: that would do the job ye
2016-08-27 03:20 Shiirn: 05:31:672 (1) - i should prolly change this
2016-08-27 03:20 Shiirn: cuz this is a bona fide wiggle slider
2016-08-27 03:20 Stjpa: 05:40:903 (2) - shouldnt this be NCd or something?
2016-08-27 03:21 Shiirn: ya
2016-08-27 03:21 Shiirn: nc'd
2016-08-27 03:22 Shiirn: good catch
2016-08-27 03:22 Stjpa: is every sv change supposed to be ncd
2016-08-27 03:22 Stjpa: or didnt u nc some on purpose
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: mmmm
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: the patterning is a bit weird but its meant to very closely follow the musical patterning
2016-08-27 03:23 Stjpa: 05:48:980 (2) - because of this
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: basically
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: when the wubs change from inner distortion to outer
2016-08-27 03:23 Shiirn: it's a new combo
2016-08-27 03:24 Shiirn: it's hard to explain FUCK
2016-08-27 03:24 Stjpa: can imagine that xD
2016-08-27 03:24 Shiirn: I'm checking to make sure it's consistent though
2016-08-27 03:24 Stjpa: u probably mean less aggressive to a more aggressive sound?
2016-08-27 03:24 Shiirn: kind of yes
2016-08-27 03:25 Shiirn: but there are also "rolls of growls" in sets of three
2016-08-27 03:25 Shiirn: e.g.05:43:980 (1,2,3) -
2016-08-27 03:25 Shiirn: but in cases like 05:40:903 (1,2,1) - there's a new combo on that last one because it's part of the very-weak-sounding and thus not-worthy-of-NC 05:42:249 (2) -
2016-08-27 03:26 Shiirn: other than that the "rolling 3s" are consistent even in the kiai
Since even the nominators can't really tell if it should pushed forward or not we are gonna try it. The rule is only there to prevent people abusing the way sliders have been made for, which isn't the case here because it fits more than well. Also, imo the wiggles are somewhat "readable" when taking a look on the sliderpath. Additional to that there's now a warning in the maps description, even though it's not even needed since the wiggles don't have impact for playability except you are someone who doesn't even try to follow the sliderball properly. Peppy even has been asked but afaik he refused to say anything about them, and his other statement from 3 years ago is quite old and might be outdated. And yeah, the qualified section is made for discussions, so if he appears here and is still against it them I'm deeply sorry for that.
In the whole IRC we pretty much only discussed about the epilepsy warning that is now enabled because one part is really on the edge (I asked several people about it, and it's only a warning after all) and fixed a NC.
Edit: If this map gets DQ'd because the majority of the community doesn't want it I won't push the map forward as well. I'm nominating it for the memes or whatever you would call it, it just deserves to be ranked in my opinion, so please tollerate that.
is the artist the same as this map? https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1026046
because you seem to have missing brackets for the artist: 【sakuraburst】
because you seem to have missing brackets for the artist: 【sakuraburst】
Topic Starter
oops, it's hard to tell given the site doesn't show them at all
i'll add them during bub2
i'll add them during bub2
metadata errors are auto icon destruction, ill just take care of it now to avoid future complications
call me back as soon as its fixed
call me back as soon as its fixed
Topic Starter
uh ok
#1
Talked with Loctav and Kyubey about the sliders on discord. The general consensus is we're all fine with the sliders since they fit the music, but the slider themselves are obscuring the wiggles/buzz. The buzz is only a problem because on 01:14:749 (3) - 01:27:057 (3) - and even 01:20:903 (3) - to a lesser extent, the buzz is covered up by other parts of the slider. If you made the buzz more visible by uncovering it or adjusting the parts of the slider covering it up, it would be significantly better and safer.
Also, whenever I try to open the storyboard, I crash, whereas on maps like Skystar's Brain Power / Louder Machine I don't have that problem. I'm curious to know what the SB load is by someone that can actually open the storyboard (because SB's have never crashed me until now) before this map is flamed.
Also, whenever I try to open the storyboard, I crash, whereas on maps like Skystar's Brain Power / Louder Machine I don't have that problem. I'm curious to know what the SB load is by someone that can actually open the storyboard (because SB's have never crashed me until now) before this map is flamed.
Topic Starter
The SB load exceeds 5 rarely, peaking over 6 at around 02:02:441 - . I'm not good enough at particle SBs to change it up and Nephroid has completely gone mia so unless someone wants to redo the section i'd rather just remove it.
Re: the sliders, I don't want to change them because it'd be impossible to have the current self-overlapping shapes and still make the bulges completely visible from both sides of the slider. The minuscule bulge doesn't really imply all that much anyway, with the smooth sliders being what they are. (And the last time I all but touched them, grumd freaked out)
Re: the sliders, I don't want to change them because it'd be impossible to have the current self-overlapping shapes and still make the bulges completely visible from both sides of the slider. The minuscule bulge doesn't really imply all that much anyway, with the smooth sliders being what they are. (And the last time I all but touched them, grumd freaked out)
sb load shouldnt ever go over 6, but make sure youre judging the load from INGAME, not the editor
here's why: p/3543513
tldr particles ingame that go offscreen get clipped, whereas the ones in the editor dont, which causes major differences in sb load between the two
to check sb load ingame use the testing window and look at the top left
here's why: p/3543513
tldr particles ingame that go offscreen get clipped, whereas the ones in the editor dont, which causes major differences in sb load between the two
to check sb load ingame use the testing window and look at the top left
Shiirn and I talked about the SB in-game, and I think as long as it isn't trashing people with worse computers than mine its fine.
Topic Starter
shithahahaitotallyforgotthatSpaghetti wrote:
tldr particles ingame that go offscreen get clipped, whereas the ones in the editor dont, which causes major differences in sb load between the two
to check sb load ingame use the testing window and look at the top left
ziin would flagellate me
but it does slip over 6 in the portion i linked. But i'm not confident enough to go through and remove particles willy-nilly, unless I can just remove all of the shockwave.png ones (i can do that easily)
removing shockwave.png and the related .osb lines pushes SB load well, well under the 6.00 threshold
Not sure whether this still has any relevance, but...
Even though I love the idea of the wiggle in these sliders, they do indeed interfere with the flow and speed the sliders naturally have. However, this would be much less of a problem if the wiggle was clearly visible. Also, if you changed the direction of the slider after the wiggle, creating a spike or corner, you call it, the effect of the slider being slowed down would be less harsh. This is why a slider like 01:27:057 (3) - works much better than a slider like 01:14:749 (3) - . using the overlap as an indicator is a nice idea, but it counters any logic that has been developed during the evolution of mapping. I don't know whether this is a bad thing, but it does what it does.
Good luck!
ps: oh well, most of this has been stated already.
Even though I love the idea of the wiggle in these sliders, they do indeed interfere with the flow and speed the sliders naturally have. However, this would be much less of a problem if the wiggle was clearly visible. Also, if you changed the direction of the slider after the wiggle, creating a spike or corner, you call it, the effect of the slider being slowed down would be less harsh. This is why a slider like 01:27:057 (3) - works much better than a slider like 01:14:749 (3) - . using the overlap as an indicator is a nice idea, but it counters any logic that has been developed during the evolution of mapping. I don't know whether this is a bad thing, but it does what it does.
Good luck!
ps: oh well, most of this has been stated already.
The sliders are controversial which is why I have nominated the map to promote discussion and community feedback. While I understand these are technically unrankable, it's been a long time since the RC has been updated regarding these, and would be nice to see how the community feels about select and limited usage of an otherwise unrankable technique.
Please note, that if any QAT or community manager feels that what I have done is poor usage of the qualified section, please DQ this map immediately and scold me how you see fit.
EDIT reason: probably should be serious with why i qualified this
Please note, that if any QAT or community manager feels that what I have done is poor usage of the qualified section, please DQ this map immediately and scold me how you see fit.
EDIT reason: probably should be serious with why i qualified this
Topic Starter
i'd like to thank my mom and brave people willing to put this forward for community discussion
and knowing me there will be lots of calm, respectful discussion about this
and knowing me there will be lots of calm, respectful discussion about this
01:20:903 (3) - I did wish you changed this one though, because the buzz indicators are now covered up by slider head + the anchor points after the buzz, whereas with the other sliders you can still see a little nudge http://puu.sh/qRJDF/d2218ff203.jpg / http://puu.sh/qRJGC/96f4ec18d0.jpg
Also, the .osb still contains code of shockwave.png, if you care.
However, knowing you - and seeing how many times these sliders have been discussed - you will probably not change this at all. Interesting to see that some things can be disregarded in some cases...
Congrats! I hope there can be a drama-free discussion, if there will be any in the first place.
Also, the .osb still contains code of shockwave.png, if you care.
However, knowing you - and seeing how many times these sliders have been discussed - you will probably not change this at all. Interesting to see that some things can be disregarded in some cases...
Congrats! I hope there can be a drama-free discussion, if there will be any in the first place.
Topic Starter
Oh, I actually forgot that I did remove shockwave.png. The sliders in question generally ended up a result of "well, even if you can't see them, the buzz in question is inconsequential to gameplay". They're purely visual.
so wait why are there brackets around the tags
Well, gratz on the qualify, Shiirn, creative as always!
It doesn't affect searching for them, I believe Shiirn did it to help segregate the names relevant to the map from the tags relevant to the song.fieryrage wrote:
so wait why are there brackets around the tags
Glad to see you found another BN, Shiirn. Congrats!
Topic Starter
The brackets are there because they are in the title of the song but don't appear even when i tried to put them in the song information. I wanted them somewhere in case people just quote the entire song name. They're independent characters that are independently searchable. It's weird.
03:35:326 (1,2) - With the way you arranged them, as well as the way those green lines are placed in timeline, it really looks like you intended for them to be 1/4 longer, ending at 03:36:191 - and 03:37:153 - .
03:39:941 (4) - This sounds too early... assuming you're following the woodwind instrument. Might need an offset shift here...
03:39:941 (4) - This sounds too early... assuming you're following the woodwind instrument. Might need an offset shift here...
sorry shiirn but as soon as I got to the first buzzy slider my PC automatically deleted system32, sent the downandup virus through all my wireless devices connected to my home network and changed my wallpapers to a tiled 320x320 free harambe picture. I feel these instances are related to that slider thus this map should be unranked :^)
Topic Starter
Monstrata wrote:
03:35:326 (1,2) - With the way you arranged them, as well as the way those green lines are placed in timeline, it really looks like you intended for them to be 1/4 longer, ending at 03:36:191 - and 03:37:153 - . They were originally ending on the blue ticks, but this added an additional slidertick that was invisible and caused players to break very often. I shortened the sliders and never carried over the 5% volume slider endings because A) I wasn't the one who 'silenced' them, and I prefer slider endings to have volume levels equal to their start (exceptions apply, obviously) and then B) forgot to outright delete the green ticks. It'd make the entire section 25%, but oh well.
03:39:941 (4) - This sounds too early... assuming you're following the woodwind instrument. Might need an offset shift here... IF you'll look at sakurabursts handy documentation and construction guide he did on this very song (xilver has a link in his map, i'm a bit busy to link it here), you'll see that he didn't actually use any offset changes. This might be a little bit off, but it's a very lenient slider head.
sounds like a personal problemSide wrote:
sorry shiirn but as soon as I got to the first buzzy slider my PC automatically deleted system32, sent the downandup virus through all my wireless devices connected to my home network and changed my wallpapers to a tiled 320x320 free harambe picture. I feel these instances are related to that slider thus this map should be unranked :^)
He said he just copied the entire sample from the pokemon movie where lugia appears lol. I don't think made any adjustments to the timing since it sounds off xP. (also on the video it looks like the .wav isn't synced to the track to begin with).
The slider is lenient of course, but idk... it sounds like it's off by at least a 1/4 tick, like 03:40:037 - sounds like a better place to begin the slider.
The slider is lenient of course, but idk... it sounds like it's off by at least a 1/4 tick, like 03:40:037 - sounds like a better place to begin the slider.
The sliders that change sv....they are quite controversial tbh
All rules are exactly that: RULES. They are NOT guidelines and may NOT be broken under ANY circumstance.
Topic Starter
The entire point, that has been discussed by dozens of mappers for months, with many years of mapping experience, is that they do not impact gameplay enough to be worth considering "changing slider velocity". They are 170ms duration buzzes. The average human reaction time to visual stimulus is 270ms. This is why AR11 is so incredibly difficult - you reach approach rates that are literally faster than human beings can, on average, react to.
What does this mean? This means that, given absolutely no forewarning whatsoever (e.g. the bulges are completely hidden and you have NO IDEA the sliders are about to vibrate), in pretty much every circumstance the sliders will have finished their vibration before the brain even realizes it's happened.
Thus, the question simply falls to "does this cause an unfair or confusing aspect for the player?" The answer is an absolute NO. There are no nearby ticks, the velocity change is insignificant, and the slider continues along what looks to be the normal path. There is no gameplay situation in which someone can possibly break because of the sliders, either, because as mentioned the vibration is over by the time the player even notices it's happened. All that's left is noticing "Oh hey those sliders vibrated during the bass distortion effect that's real fuckin' neato" and that's the impact I want delivered.
If you have any sort of argument against the concepts I listed above, feel free to bring them up.
Rules are created to avoid certain events from happening. Thus, they need to be worded in as generalized ways as possible to prevent those events from being possible. These sliders bend (or break) the rules as written, but do not actually cause any rule-breaking effect on the player.
But if people are here just to give me shit because I've given people shit in the past, then you're wasting your time.
What does this mean? This means that, given absolutely no forewarning whatsoever (e.g. the bulges are completely hidden and you have NO IDEA the sliders are about to vibrate), in pretty much every circumstance the sliders will have finished their vibration before the brain even realizes it's happened.
Thus, the question simply falls to "does this cause an unfair or confusing aspect for the player?" The answer is an absolute NO. There are no nearby ticks, the velocity change is insignificant, and the slider continues along what looks to be the normal path. There is no gameplay situation in which someone can possibly break because of the sliders, either, because as mentioned the vibration is over by the time the player even notices it's happened. All that's left is noticing "Oh hey those sliders vibrated during the bass distortion effect that's real fuckin' neato" and that's the impact I want delivered.
If you have any sort of argument against the concepts I listed above, feel free to bring them up.
Rules are created to avoid certain events from happening. Thus, they need to be worded in as generalized ways as possible to prevent those events from being possible. These sliders bend (or break) the rules as written, but do not actually cause any rule-breaking effect on the player.
But if people are here just to give me shit because I've given people shit in the past, then you're wasting your time.
They are allowed with the new upcoming RC, maybe read them now. The only things that are controversial right now are the sliderpaths themselves.sahuang wrote:
The sliders that change sv....they are quite controversial tbhAll rules are exactly that: RULES. They are NOT guidelines and may NOT be broken under ANY circumstance.
Stjpa - the new RC isn't in effect yet
Shiirn - There are a lot of unrankable elements that do not actually cause any rule-breaking effect on the player. That doesn't mean we can just use them and rank them.
Shiirn - There are a lot of unrankable elements that do not actually cause any rule-breaking effect on the player. That doesn't mean we can just use them and rank them.
Topic Starter
{Citation needed}
I just have one simple question.
If something isn't allowed by the rules, why is this approved? As you said yourself, the new RC isn't in effect yet, so this theoretically is unrankable. 10/10
If something isn't allowed by the rules, why is this approved? As you said yourself, the new RC isn't in effect yet, so this theoretically is unrankable. 10/10
Topic Starter
Because the rules exist to stop the players from having an unfair experience whilst playing this game. Ideally, they are as nonrestrictive as possible as far as allowing creativity for both the mapper and the player experience. It's better to blanket out some edge cases to make sure you've stopped most, or all, possible ways of treating the player unfairly.
In other words, rules, as a rule, should be "overkill". They should cover more than they need to to get their job done. But there are edge cases where the rules are broken, but the area they're intended to cover has not been breached.
Anyone who's talked to me before has probably heard me say "There are exceptions to every rule", and I believe this map qualifies as an exception. Is that selfish? That's up to other people to tell. I'd personally allow these sliders from anyone else.
In other words, rules, as a rule, should be "overkill". They should cover more than they need to to get their job done. But there are edge cases where the rules are broken, but the area they're intended to cover has not been breached.
Anyone who's talked to me before has probably heard me say "There are exceptions to every rule", and I believe this map qualifies as an exception. Is that selfish? That's up to other people to tell. I'd personally allow these sliders from anyone else.
Hey cool, my first post as a non-nominator!
Also, as for the "new rule" that was supposed to save this mapset this weekend, well.. I don't think this falls under the new RC either.
Then again, I couldn't have expected you to read those if you couldn't read the Ranking Criteria that disallows these kinds of things. Good luck!
I could write 10 paragraphs about how if I have a song that rewinds backwards, I can use a burai slider that goes inwards on itself because it "fits the song" and "should be intuitive", but realistically it breaks the rulesRanking Criteria wrote:
All rules are exactly that: RULES. They are NOT guidelines and may NOT be broken under ANY circumstance.
Also, as for the "new rule" that was supposed to save this mapset this weekend, well.. I don't think this falls under the new RC either.
As nominators, you are allowed to decline Shiirn's requests to nominate this map. This isn't a form of bravery for the sake of the community, it's a form of you ranking something that is explicitly unrankable. Just a reminder in case people didn't read the BNG RulesProposed RC wrote:
Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous cannot be used, such as burai sliders and hold sliders without straightforward slider borders. Perfectly overlapping slider bodies must give enough time to fully read each slider’s path.
Then again, I couldn't have expected you to read those if you couldn't read the Ranking Criteria that disallows these kinds of things. Good luck!
Topic Starter
Burai sliders present an unfair expectation towards the player because they are not visually recognizable at all and can cause the player to become confused even when they know it's a burai. I've already explained why these sliders do not do that.
If you can provide a more valid set of reasoning than simply repeating "But rules are rules, man!" like a decrepit parrot, I'll be happy to discuss them with you. But otherwise, I don't think you'll provide anything to this discussion that hasn't already been brought up. These sliders have been discussed by several dozen people, and each of the qualifying BNs independently came to the conclusion that they believed they should be given a chance.
I'm not exactly going to fall for your logical fallacies like you may think everyone should.
If you can provide a more valid set of reasoning than simply repeating "But rules are rules, man!" like a decrepit parrot, I'll be happy to discuss them with you. But otherwise, I don't think you'll provide anything to this discussion that hasn't already been brought up. These sliders have been discussed by several dozen people, and each of the qualifying BNs independently came to the conclusion that they believed they should be given a chance.
I'm not exactly going to fall for your logical fallacies like you may think everyone should.
Why would you want to break the rules anyways for any other reason to be an incompetent edgelord? You aren't a god, Shiirn. It's about time you got brought back down to Earth like the rest of us and realize that you have to follow the same rules as the rest of us. No exceptions.
Topic Starter
ok
meanwhile monstrataAscendance wrote:
Why would you want to break the rules anyways for any other reason to be an incompetent edgelord? You aren't a god, Shiirn. It's about time you got brought back down to Earth like the rest of us and realize that you have to follow the same rules as the rest of us. No exceptions.
Ongaku to the rescue
Nice save bud!
Nice save bud!
Okay okay, let me just drop something.Ascendance wrote:
Why would you want to break the rules anyways for any other reason to be an incompetent edgelord? You aren't a god, Shiirn. It's about time you got brought back down to Earth like the rest of us and realize that you have to follow the same rules as the rest of us. No exceptions.
We break rules so we can create new ones. Its improving creativity of the mapper and mappers all around, and if you can't seem to accept change, then feel free not to.
I understand rules are there for a reason, but in this case, it is completely justified in playablity. Maps are meant to be played, so if people can play it, so whats the problem?
The sliders are controversial which is why I have nominated the map to promote discussion and community feedback. While I understand these are technically unrankable, it's been a long time since the RC has been updated regarding these, and would be nice to see how the community feels about select and limited usage of an otherwise unrankable technique.
Please note, that if any QAT or community manager feels that what I have done is poor usage of the qualified section, please DQ this map immediately and scold me how you see fit.
Please note, that if any QAT or community manager feels that what I have done is poor usage of the qualified section, please DQ this map immediately and scold me how you see fit.
Or you could do what any other NORMAL person would do and just propose a rule change in the RC subforum. It's not improving creativity it's degrading the state of the community. Shiirn is an iconic mapper, so of course people will be stupid enough to follow what he's doing. He's using his position in the community to do stupid things, like break rules and oppose everything. It's funny that you bring up Monstrata, also. Monstrata uses his position to rank admittedly dumb things too (hi Alien), but they aren't unrankable.
No one is here to say they don't like change. Change happens naturally. You can't justify breaking a RULE for the sake of change. You go through a normal process of a proposal like every other damn user, and if it's declined then suck it up. Believe it or not, Shiirn is not community manager, or leader of the Ranking Criteria Council, or peppy. He's Shiirn.
No one is here to say they don't like change. Change happens naturally. You can't justify breaking a RULE for the sake of change. You go through a normal process of a proposal like every other damn user, and if it's declined then suck it up. Believe it or not, Shiirn is not community manager, or leader of the Ranking Criteria Council, or peppy. He's Shiirn.
Topic Starter
If you'd refer to this thread, you'll see that sixteen qualified voices spoke up on the matter of these sliders. Not a single one of them called them unplayable or unfair to the player. Not a single one.
The only disagreements were caused by pre-existing rules and their feelings that they should be upheld as a higher priority than letting one map slip through as a precedent.
"peppy" was mentioned several times, as having a single post three years ago saying that they were unacceptable, on a map that used them very differently from how this map uses them. That map in question was actively manipulating the speed of the slider with the back-and-forth effect, causing the cursor to need to move faster after passing the "wiggle" portion. This opinion is questionable as a means of disputing this rule, as it's barely relevant when you realize these facts.
In fact, the reason this map has waited so long to be qualified is specifically because I was trying to go "up the totem pole" and ask the opinions of progressively higher and more authoritarian voices of the mapping community.
Loctav avoided the question, referencing that the new ranking criteria was being worked on and I should "figure it out over there". (There, I was held back mostly by Monstrata saying "stop trying to change the rules to rank your own map". Thanks, buddy.). He recently provided an updated insight that he didn't like how the bulges weren't easily visible, but felt that the sliders were fine from a gameplay perspective as well. The vibrations are very tiny, after all, and barely make the slider bulge.
And nobody higher-ranking than Loctav gave an answer either. ztrot tried to pass the question to peppy, feeling it wasn't his place to answer it himself (or so i was informed), and that went nowhere for a good two months.
Many people, myself included, decided we might as well just give the damn map a shot. It's not hurting anyone and it's already been discussed to hell and back. You're kind of starting to go in circles here, responding to my responses with personal attacks or simply repeating your point.
Bring in new information or new commentary, or quit mucking up the thread for the people with opinions that haven't already been discussed.
And seriously, "abusing my position in the community"? Being Shiirn is a detriment to trying to rank questionable content. People like you fuck with me for sport and I get stonewalled in completely random directions whenever I try to do anything by people simply being contrary to spite me. They might even have good reason to, but it's not exactly a boon.
The only disagreements were caused by pre-existing rules and their feelings that they should be upheld as a higher priority than letting one map slip through as a precedent.
"peppy" was mentioned several times, as having a single post three years ago saying that they were unacceptable, on a map that used them very differently from how this map uses them. That map in question was actively manipulating the speed of the slider with the back-and-forth effect, causing the cursor to need to move faster after passing the "wiggle" portion. This opinion is questionable as a means of disputing this rule, as it's barely relevant when you realize these facts.
In fact, the reason this map has waited so long to be qualified is specifically because I was trying to go "up the totem pole" and ask the opinions of progressively higher and more authoritarian voices of the mapping community.
Loctav avoided the question, referencing that the new ranking criteria was being worked on and I should "figure it out over there". (There, I was held back mostly by Monstrata saying "stop trying to change the rules to rank your own map". Thanks, buddy.). He recently provided an updated insight that he didn't like how the bulges weren't easily visible, but felt that the sliders were fine from a gameplay perspective as well. The vibrations are very tiny, after all, and barely make the slider bulge.
And nobody higher-ranking than Loctav gave an answer either. ztrot tried to pass the question to peppy, feeling it wasn't his place to answer it himself (or so i was informed), and that went nowhere for a good two months.
Many people, myself included, decided we might as well just give the damn map a shot. It's not hurting anyone and it's already been discussed to hell and back. You're kind of starting to go in circles here, responding to my responses with personal attacks or simply repeating your point.
Bring in new information or new commentary, or quit mucking up the thread for the people with opinions that haven't already been discussed.
And seriously, "abusing my position in the community"? Being Shiirn is a detriment to trying to rank questionable content. People like you fuck with me for sport and I get stonewalled in completely random directions whenever I try to do anything by people simply being contrary to spite me. They might even have good reason to, but it's not exactly a boon.
Won't say anything more then. Good luck to the 3 nominators that you've just plunged into a terrible situation.
Like I said, there are other "technically unrankable" elements that have next to no impact in terms of playability. It doesn't mean we can just rank maps with unrankable elements.
Other unrankable elements without any harm to playability
-x pixels offscreen slider-ends / sliderborders
-burai's that are only overlapping by x pixels
-using red lines to reduce SV
-editing notepad to use two-decimal CS/AR/HP/OD
Just to name a few. I'm sure there are others, but i don't have my Aspire thinking cap on right now.
You guys are arguing that the sliders are playable. They probably are, Shiirn made a good case for playability through reaction times etc... An element being playable doesn't make it rankable though. People have to respect the RC. If mappers are allowed to break the rules, then why should everyone else respect the rules? Do you guys plan on promoting other unrankable but playable elements in the future? As much as I love unrankable elements (woo Aspire) I think we still need to respect the Ranking Criteria currently in place. It's dated, and we know that it's getting replaced soon enough. Wait for the new RC to be finalized and then we can revisit whether unrankable elements like this can become rankable.
Other unrankable elements without any harm to playability
-x pixels offscreen slider-ends / sliderborders
-burai's that are only overlapping by x pixels
-using red lines to reduce SV
-editing notepad to use two-decimal CS/AR/HP/OD
Just to name a few. I'm sure there are others, but i don't have my Aspire thinking cap on right now.
You guys are arguing that the sliders are playable. They probably are, Shiirn made a good case for playability through reaction times etc... An element being playable doesn't make it rankable though. People have to respect the RC. If mappers are allowed to break the rules, then why should everyone else respect the rules? Do you guys plan on promoting other unrankable but playable elements in the future? As much as I love unrankable elements (woo Aspire) I think we still need to respect the Ranking Criteria currently in place. It's dated, and we know that it's getting replaced soon enough. Wait for the new RC to be finalized and then we can revisit whether unrankable elements like this can become rankable.
R.I.P. Xexxar: 2016-2016Ascendance wrote:
Won't say anything more then. Good luck to the 3 nominators that you've just plunged into a terrible situation.
Topic Starter
Those are all literally gamebreaking mechanics. They literally break the game by causing it to act unpredictably and unusually.
And pixels offscreen is more of a global aesthetic rule, just like skin requirements.
There are plenty of rankable self-overlapping sliders out there. I threw this together in five seconds and it's a fairly common shape for wub maps.
This map setting a precedent is the major valid argument against it, however, and I applaud that you're going that route instead of Ascendance's "rules are rules" diatribe. That's why it's in qualified for discussion at all. If enough people agree with you, it should be taken down. But only you and Ascendance have spoken against them thus far for the sake of blocking it to avoid it setting a precedent. And Sahuang made a post, i guess. But I hesitate to count people who just spit out "rules are rules". So only really you count, Monstrata.
If enough people think this map should be stopped to avoid it being easier for future maps to "break the rules by saying 'But Shiirn's map did it!'", in a mapping community that already immediately discards said other maps from being used as justification, then that's cool. Cool beans for you.
But it's not good enough for me, and apparently not good enough for a few other people.
"Maps should be judged on a case-by-case basis" has been a concept that's been around for far longer than any of us have. And it's a very good concept. I distinctly remember Lesjuh having something far worse than this in his Freestyler map, and it had tons of discussion as well. I'm not comparing myself to Lesjuh as a mapper or the situations at all, but I'm just saying this isn't the first time this has happened.
And pixels offscreen is more of a global aesthetic rule, just like skin requirements.
There are plenty of rankable self-overlapping sliders out there. I threw this together in five seconds and it's a fairly common shape for wub maps.
This map setting a precedent is the major valid argument against it, however, and I applaud that you're going that route instead of Ascendance's "rules are rules" diatribe. That's why it's in qualified for discussion at all. If enough people agree with you, it should be taken down. But only you and Ascendance have spoken against them thus far for the sake of blocking it to avoid it setting a precedent. And Sahuang made a post, i guess. But I hesitate to count people who just spit out "rules are rules". So only really you count, Monstrata.
If enough people think this map should be stopped to avoid it being easier for future maps to "break the rules by saying 'But Shiirn's map did it!'", in a mapping community that already immediately discards said other maps from being used as justification, then that's cool. Cool beans for you.
But it's not good enough for me, and apparently not good enough for a few other people.
"Maps should be judged on a case-by-case basis" has been a concept that's been around for far longer than any of us have. And it's a very good concept. I distinctly remember Lesjuh having something far worse than this in his Freestyler map, and it had tons of discussion as well. I'm not comparing myself to Lesjuh as a mapper or the situations at all, but I'm just saying this isn't the first time this has happened.
Kek.Xexxar wrote:
R.I.P. Xexxar: 2016-2016Ascendance wrote:
Won't say anything more then. Good luck to the 3 nominators that you've just plunged into a terrible situation.
Shiirn has valid points for bringing this to the qualified section and a lot of people (beside us 3 BNs, and even including QATs) agree on it. And since the qualified section is made for discussions I don't really see a problem at all here. Every QAT can easily DQ it if he wants to. Sure Shiirn could have made a proposal (or whatever it's called) but I don't remember that anything there has been accepted (might be because I'm new to mapping still).
Including QATs? I'm not so sure about that one The point is you've NOMINATED AN UNRANKABLE MAP, regardless of how Shiirn wants to put it, the map is unrankable. It's against the rules of the BNG and I'm sure you're 100% aware of that, since you read those rules, right?
The point is you've NOMINATED AN UNRANKABLE MAP, regardless of how Shiirn wants to put it, the map is unrankable. It's against the rules of the BNG and I'm sure you're 100% aware of that, since you read those rules, right?Rules are meant to be broken anyways. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Ascendance wrote:
Including QATs? I'm not so sure about that one
Monstrata used a wiggle in Hey kids!! too to slow down a slider even though it's against the RC, isn't it?
But anyway, let's wait for more opinions or a QAT who doesn't want this map to be pushed forward.
But anyway, let's wait for more opinions or a QAT who doesn't want this map to be pushed forward.
methinks that the issue here isnt about the wiggle sliders. i think its because that some sliders such as this one forcibly slows down the slider. isnt that the unrankable one?Stjpa wrote:
Monstrata used a wiggle in Hey kids!! too to slow down a slider even though it's against the RC, isn't it?
for convenience, i believe that this slider is the one stjpa is talking about.
Yup, basically this. On this map, the slider is burai and undetectable until after it has happened. The monstrata one is obvious because of the sliderborder and shapeAnxient wrote:
methinks that the issue here isnt about the wiggle sliders. i think its because that some sliders such as this one forcibly slows down the slider. isnt that the unrankable one?
for convenience, i believe that this slider is the one stjpa is talking about.
Topic Starter
"Slows down" for all of 170 milliseconds. Literally faster than AR11. It's purely a visual effect. Etc etc etc etc etc etc.
Hey, that's not even relevant, maps are judged on a case-by-case basis.Stjpa wrote:
Monstrata used a wiggle in Hey kids!! too to slow down a slider even though it's against the RC, isn't it?
But anyway, let's wait for more opinions or a QAT who doesn't want this map to be pushed forward.
Anyways, wiggle sliders are game breaking mechanics too, Shiirn. But they can be done in a way to be perfectly playable. It doesn't excuse their unrankability
.after reading some of the discussion on this thread, i have some suggestions myself.
a lot of the arguments presented seem to revolve around the ranking criteria and the inability to break it. and arguments regarding a "case-by-case basis" are somewhat invalid at this point because those only relate to Ranking Guidelines.
you may also point out the large amount of biased opinions that get thrown around which is why i encourage for the criteria council to take a non-biased approach to this proposal and disregard the thought of "shiirn changing the rules to rank his map", if that has even been brought up. consider the proposal was suggested by a random community member, and then promoted by another random group of people. no drama.
from my point of view, allowing for this kind of leniency in the ruleset is healthy for the future of osu! and allows mappers to push the limits of the editor like shiirn has done here. this allows for nominators to make the decision on whether or not the gimmick can be justified, and if it fulfills the reason's that guidelines exist.
a lot of the arguments presented seem to revolve around the ranking criteria and the inability to break it. and arguments regarding a "case-by-case basis" are somewhat invalid at this point because those only relate to Ranking Guidelines.
i do have to agree that these sliders are perfectly fine and without it the map would feel hollow, but unfortunately in the current state of the ranking criteria, it does remain unrankable. which why i restate ascendance's point, of bringing this up with the criteria council in attempt to move the rule from the criteria to the guidelines. this allows for "case-by-case analysis" to be employed and makes arguments such as "rules are rules" invalid.Guidelines wrote:
Guidelines are important and should be followed in most maps. However, they are NOT rules, so they may be broken in special cases. If you want to break a guideline, ask yourself this: Does what I'm about to do make sense? Is it more fun to play like this compared to sticking to the guidelines? If you answer yes to both these questions, then it is probably okay.
you may also point out the large amount of biased opinions that get thrown around which is why i encourage for the criteria council to take a non-biased approach to this proposal and disregard the thought of "shiirn changing the rules to rank his map", if that has even been brought up. consider the proposal was suggested by a random community member, and then promoted by another random group of people. no drama.
from my point of view, allowing for this kind of leniency in the ruleset is healthy for the future of osu! and allows mappers to push the limits of the editor like shiirn has done here. this allows for nominators to make the decision on whether or not the gimmick can be justified, and if it fulfills the reason's that guidelines exist.
at a look, it would be completely fine to somebody with some common sense
we just have to see whether its fine to break the RC for this
we just have to see whether its fine to break the RC for this
/me whispers case-by-case is a thing even when breaking the RC
The only thing I would agree on would be changing the slidershape of the looping one.
The only thing I would agree on would be changing the slidershape of the looping one.
If I'm not wrong, these sliders 01:14:749 (3)- , 01:20:903 (3)- and 01:27:057 (3)- doesn't have their speed changed exactly in the middle of them because of the *wiggled* part of the slider?I know that changing the speed in the middle of the slider is forbidden.
Also, in 00:18:210 (1,2)- Maybe CTRL+G? You're using mostly 1/1 slider + note rhythm and not note + 1/1 slider.1/1 slider + note would work better plus for the sake of consistency.
00:43:980 (1)- I think you don't need the NC here.00:37:826 (3)- doesn't have the NC and this note is pretty similar with that one *they are placed on the same piano sound*.
Throwing my 2 cents only.
Also, in 00:18:210 (1,2)- Maybe CTRL+G? You're using mostly 1/1 slider + note rhythm and not note + 1/1 slider.1/1 slider + note would work better plus for the sake of consistency.
00:43:980 (1)- I think you don't need the NC here.00:37:826 (3)- doesn't have the NC and this note is pretty similar with that one *they are placed on the same piano sound*.
Throwing my 2 cents only.
welp, since there is no consensus about these sliders between people who can qualify/disqualify maps i believe it's time to ask ppy :^)
personally i don't really like this slider being there 07:23:018 (1) - because the way the one before the break is set up it feels like it'd end the map (it'd also end the map on a more intense note)
not dq-worthy issue, just personal shit
not dq-worthy issue, just personal shit
u kinda need to have a seizure mid-slider to actually break on these t b h (but the issue is the rc being broken so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
Do people even read the thread?
Edit: The sentence above probably sounds passive-aggressive, but it's not supposed to be.
Edit: The sentence above probably sounds passive-aggressive, but it's not supposed to be.
@Stjpa Of course not we're here to meme, what did you think osu! was all about. It's about friends and family coming along together to tilt over every little thing, the tone used in all these posts baffle me, but I don't have a say in this so I'll just kick back and enjoy myself
stjpa lul
complaining about people not reading when he couldn't even read the ranking criteria to see things are unrankable O:O:O:O:
complaining about people not reading when he couldn't even read the ranking criteria to see things are unrankable O:O:O:O:
Please don't shame modders for not reading the thread, especially when it's not a realistic expectation. Ideally people will read the thread before posting, but that's not reasonable especially if a modder is just taking a quick look and mentioning stuff they found to be needing improvement. We shouldn't have to require modders to read through 8 pages of drama and discussion. They may not be adding to the discussion, but they still show that other people aren't fine with those patterns. The numbers will still matter. Modding v2 will hopefully fix some of this but until then, you have to deal with this.
Okay, lets wait for a QAT.
Okay, lets wait for a QAT.
since when o-oStjpa wrote:
/me whispers case-by-case is a thing even when breaking the RC
lo i've read dw
idk if this was adressed yet but loctav said that there is no point of waiting on others and letting that take over your thinking when we mentioned that we wanted to wait for the new rc to come out to handle thisIrreversible wrote:
I just have one simple question.
If something isn't allowed by the rules, why is this approved? As you said yourself, the new RC isn't in effect yet, so this theoretically is unrankable. 10/10
I've been talking about several inconsistencies in this map, but never really told you what I mean with that. I decided to spend some time to list some up.
01:20:133 (1,2) - Why have you decided to make this slider, and none of the rest? I do not quite hear anything that supports this in the song - could as well be two circles, right?
01:48:018 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Considering that the strong beat is on the white tick here, this is pretty counterintuitive. If you let all the sliders end on red, it still follows what you intended to follow, but it supports the strong beats better.
02:17:730 (3,4,5,1) - That spacing is really just something. You have higher spacing on 1/8 than on the 1/4. And then it gets higher again. Why?
02:25:710 (3,1) - You never really used that kind of antijump, so why have you decided for one here?
02:55:903 (1,2,3,1,2) - What's that increase in spacing? The song literally stays the same.
03:03:403 (2,3) - That's pretty much the same as 01:48:018 (1,2,1,2,1,2) -
03:04:749 (1,2,3) - Why are these in one pattern? The piano starts on 2, but it connects with 3 and 1... this is not really correct if you ask me.
03:07:056 (3) - According to your logic (03:05:903 (4) -) this should be higher spacing. The whole part can be checked for that.
03:27:890 (1,2,1) - Why 1/6 and 1/4? And the spacing is heavily increased at points, why?
03:46:095 (3) - This wiggle now really doesn't make sense. The sound is just as subtle as it could be..
04:05:518 (1,2,3) - Again, this patterning is weird. Slider end of 1 does not go with 2 musically.
05:40:326 (1) - I mean, so far you've only used smooth sliders how comes that you randomly decide to use a super special slider now? It would be really nice if you could accentuate the same sounds with similar stuff, especially in this part it could become a really nice effect. Right now, there is different sliders for everything which kind of defeats the purpose..
06:08:018 (3) - There is one slider that end on a red tick, but this and some others end on blue, why?
Other issues:
01:01:672 (1,1) - Why does this need two NCs?
01:27:057 (3) - Imo that slider would look better if it had the same distance around the starting point. http://puu.sh/qT9Om/5135a73485.jpg (pretty optional)
02:30:566 (1) - I think someone could try fixing the mp3, so this doesn't have to be so weirdly unsnapped.
04:18:980 (2) - A NC would be beneficial here since it's a new part.
I know, there are a lot of why questions, but this basically should help me understanding why you do these things, because for me and some others it simply doesn't make sense and it's odd to me, that it wasn't pointed out (it seems). I haven't pointed out all things because I want to see how it goes, but this should definitely give you an idea.
Hope we can clear things up.
01:20:133 (1,2) - Why have you decided to make this slider, and none of the rest? I do not quite hear anything that supports this in the song - could as well be two circles, right?
01:48:018 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Considering that the strong beat is on the white tick here, this is pretty counterintuitive. If you let all the sliders end on red, it still follows what you intended to follow, but it supports the strong beats better.
02:17:730 (3,4,5,1) - That spacing is really just something. You have higher spacing on 1/8 than on the 1/4. And then it gets higher again. Why?
02:25:710 (3,1) - You never really used that kind of antijump, so why have you decided for one here?
02:55:903 (1,2,3,1,2) - What's that increase in spacing? The song literally stays the same.
03:03:403 (2,3) - That's pretty much the same as 01:48:018 (1,2,1,2,1,2) -
03:04:749 (1,2,3) - Why are these in one pattern? The piano starts on 2, but it connects with 3 and 1... this is not really correct if you ask me.
03:07:056 (3) - According to your logic (03:05:903 (4) -) this should be higher spacing. The whole part can be checked for that.
03:27:890 (1,2,1) - Why 1/6 and 1/4? And the spacing is heavily increased at points, why?
03:46:095 (3) - This wiggle now really doesn't make sense. The sound is just as subtle as it could be..
04:05:518 (1,2,3) - Again, this patterning is weird. Slider end of 1 does not go with 2 musically.
05:40:326 (1) - I mean, so far you've only used smooth sliders how comes that you randomly decide to use a super special slider now? It would be really nice if you could accentuate the same sounds with similar stuff, especially in this part it could become a really nice effect. Right now, there is different sliders for everything which kind of defeats the purpose..
06:08:018 (3) - There is one slider that end on a red tick, but this and some others end on blue, why?
Other issues:
01:01:672 (1,1) - Why does this need two NCs?
01:27:057 (3) - Imo that slider would look better if it had the same distance around the starting point. http://puu.sh/qT9Om/5135a73485.jpg (pretty optional)
02:30:566 (1) - I think someone could try fixing the mp3, so this doesn't have to be so weirdly unsnapped.
04:18:980 (2) - A NC would be beneficial here since it's a new part.
I know, there are a lot of why questions, but this basically should help me understanding why you do these things, because for me and some others it simply doesn't make sense and it's odd to me, that it wasn't pointed out (it seems). I haven't pointed out all things because I want to see how it goes, but this should definitely give you an idea.
Hope we can clear things up.
hi~
Irre raised some points which should be discussed imo.
additionally to that post i can't really tell if 02:30:566 (1) - isnt supposed to be ending on 02:30:550 -
02:17:730 (3) - shouldnt this end on 02:17:954 - ? i'm pretty unsure about this but 1/8 sounds late, additionally agreeing that spacing can be super misleading here as it somehow indicates 02:17:730 (3,4) - are 1/4 apart while they arent
03:27:890 (1) - i think sliderend actually sounds late, a thing around 03:28:435 - sounds more accurate... to me at least but then again it's late so im not too sure on this call. for this issue in particular
06:04:941 (3) - shouldnt this be same length as 06:08:018 (3) - 06:11:095 (3) - 06:14:172 (3) - cuz same sound
Irre raised some points which should be discussed imo.
additionally to that post i can't really tell if 02:30:566 (1) - isnt supposed to be ending on 02:30:550 -
02:17:730 (3) - shouldnt this end on 02:17:954 - ? i'm pretty unsure about this but 1/8 sounds late, additionally agreeing that spacing can be super misleading here as it somehow indicates 02:17:730 (3,4) - are 1/4 apart while they arent
03:27:890 (1) - i think sliderend actually sounds late, a thing around 03:28:435 - sounds more accurate... to me at least but then again it's late so im not too sure on this call. for this issue in particular
06:04:941 (3) - shouldnt this be same length as 06:08:018 (3) - 06:11:095 (3) - 06:14:172 (3) - cuz same sound
Topic Starter
Irreversible wrote:
I've been talking about several inconsistencies in this map, but never really told you what I mean with that. I decided to spend some time to list some up.
01:20:133 (1,2) - Why have you decided to make this slider, and none of the rest? I do not quite hear anything that supports this in the song - could as well be two circles, right? Honestly, this is grumd's bit. I initially had the idea for vibrations during the bass, grumd made the actual entire section except for the ending, 01:29:845 (4,5,6,1,2,3,1) - is what I did. I was going to change them to circles, but this screwed over the storyboard and Nephroid was unavailable to change it at all, and nobody I knew could change the SB, and I couldn't figure out heads from tails with it, so I left it.
01:48:018 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Considering that the strong beat is on the white tick here, this is pretty counterintuitive. If you let all the sliders end on red, it still follows what you intended to follow, but it supports the strong beats better. Man you really hate offbeats. This fits better in my mind. If it doesn't fit better in yours, well, that's just unfortunate. I find that consistent offbeats provide the player with a more suiting feeling for the "cascading melody" musical pattern better than following the simply louder beats.
02:17:730 (3,4,5,1) - That spacing is really just something. You have higher spacing on 1/8 than on the 1/4. And then it gets higher again. Why? 02:18:018 (4,5,1) - Is a firm triple. They need to be together, closely. They're individually separate from the held note of 02:17:730 (3) - (which technically ends at the same time as the first beat of the triple, which is why it's 1/8 and doesn't end on the blue tick), as well as 02:18:595 (1) - being the start of a new measure both technically and musically, so the increased spacing between the two sliders is totally normal, if you ask me.
02:25:710 (3,1) - You never really used that kind of antijump, so why have you decided for one here? For the past few measures, and the measures afterwards, there's pretty much always a growl or wub or distortion connecting beats to one another. This the 1/2 duration where they are weakest. you can barely here the distortion on 02:25:710 (3) - 's beat, so I simply made it a circle rather than a slider, and the "anti-jump" just fell into place from there. I don't look at the distance snap of notes to determine where they should go. I simply consider what kind of impact I want the player to feel when they move to the next note - This "anti-jump" is barely noticeable while playing but suits the feeling of it being the weakest beat of the entire section.
02:55:903 (1,2,3,1,2) - What's that increase in spacing? The song literally stays the same. 1/1 spacing at this level, as long as it isn't cross-screen, literally doesn't matter. The heavily increased spacing is also an indicator that "not the entire section is going to be really small movements". The music has 1/1 sections that extend for quite a while, but this one is interposed with various glitchy musical patterns. I'm not going to say that this was a concious choice, but it makes sense in retrospect to have a noticeably bigger bit of spacing that doesn't actually qualify as a jump.
03:03:403 (2,3) - That's pretty much the same as 01:48:018 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Same response. I prefer using offbeat start sliders to better represent "cascading melodies". The fact that there are both on and off-beat sliders here is due to the "cascading" being a bit more unpredictable and not a straight downwards trend like the previous one.
03:04:749 (1,2,3) - Why are these in one pattern? The piano starts on 2, but it connects with 3 and 1... this is not really correct if you ask me. 03:05:903 (4) - This needs to be alone due to the stick clap, and it's better to connect the nearby three notes into a pattern than to have one and two seperate notes just spilling about randomly.
03:07:056 (3) - According to your logic (03:05:903 (4) -) this should be higher spacing. The whole part can be checked for that. I'm sorry, I don't hear the stick clap at 03:07:057 - . It's also present at 03:12:057 (1) - (which, coincidentally, is already spaced due to it being a new set of three, thanks sakuraburst). The only mistake I might have made here is that I didn't hitsound them with soft claps like I did for the post-lugia area but they'd be excessively loud here anyway.
03:27:890 (1,2,1) - Why 1/6 and 1/4? And the spacing is heavily increased at points, why? Like Monstrata said, sakuraburst just ripped the lugia theme from the movie proper, the timing is going to be iffy no matter what you do. These are good approximations and the flow between the sliders and notes works fine. (This is also mostly Liiraye's contribution. I modified the sliders to play better and abuse OD mechanics. Monstrata is very familiar with using a single bpm on a map that goes slightly off-timed (cough, supercell), and at the time I disagreed but I've come to understand his viewpoint about just making sure it's playable and comfortable by keeping the same BPM so that the player can mentally keep time in their own head as to when they need to click the notes.
03:46:095 (3) - This wiggle now really doesn't make sense. The sound is just as subtle as it could be.. Subtle, but enough for liiraye to put a wiggle there. *shrug* I don't know why you're obsessing over this.
04:05:518 (1,2,3) - Again, this patterning is weird. Slider end of 1 does not go with 2 musically. I felt that the last note should be held in regards to the beginning of a new section. I decided to have it end at the proper place you would have a click because I could not have all three of "Have a click at 04:06:287 - , Have a hold start at 04:05:518 - , and have the slider end at a point that is either suitable or makes sense". So I decided to sacrifice the click at 04:06:287 - so that I could have a hold instead. This was a conscious decision, for sure.
05:40:326 (1) - I mean, so far you've only used smooth sliders how comes that you randomly decide to use a super special slider now? It would be really nice if you could accentuate the same sounds with similar stuff, especially in this part it could become a really nice effect. Right now, there is different sliders for everything which kind of defeats the purpose.. idk what parts you've been looking at but i'm pretty sure it's clear the sliders get progressively weirder over time...
06:08:018 (3) - There is one slider that end on a red tick, but this and some others end on blue, why? I was confused as to what you meant until I actually found the only actual red-tick-ending slider of this relevant beat. It's 06:04:941 (3) - , by the way. 06:06:864 (1) - Is much more subdued and does not have the extremely harsh crash introduction, so it ending later simply makes it distinct. 06:04:941 (3) - can be called a legitimate oversight, it should be a 3/4 slider. Something must have happened to it along the way, I don't remember it being 1/1 nor the sliderpoint extending so far down south. If it was 3/4 at that point, it'd also be close to ending in the crux of the first bend of 06:03:787 (1) - , which is probably what it was going for.
Other issues:
01:01:672 (1,1) - Why does this need two NCs? why not, they're both very significant beats, and are very independent
01:27:057 (3) - Imo that slider would look better if it had the same distance around the starting point. http://puu.sh/qT9Om/5135a73485.jpg (pretty optional) Considering grumd yelled at me for even moving one node of his finished sliders a tiny bit, I'd rather leave them alone.
02:30:566 (1) - I think someone could try fixing the mp3, so this doesn't have to be so weirdly unsnapped. #blamesakuraburst
04:18:980 (2) - A NC would be beneficial here since it's a new part. There was't a new combo at 04:05:518 (1,2,3) - tho and the same concept is used here??? :eyes:
I know, there are a lot of why questions, but this basically should help me understanding why you do these things, because for me and some others it simply doesn't make sense and it's odd to me, that it wasn't pointed out (it seems). I haven't pointed out all things because I want to see how it goes, but this should definitely give you an idea.
Hope we can clear things up.
I hope I was clear. I know we have extremely different views on how mapping should be done, and if it helps I actually do understand where you're coming from with your concepts of consistency and adherence to the raw structure of the music, I just.... disagree with them and feel that the pros of creative expression on the part of the mapper, and manipulating game concepts (as a simple example, my use of offbeat sliders even though they end on a "stronger beat") to provide a different experience for the player (offbeat slider patterns cause the player to feel different from on-beat) outweigh the cons that are associated with them (hard to pin down logically, sometimes very confusing from just looking at the editor).
The only things I'd be okay with fixing up pending a DQ (And help getting it back on track would be an instant "okay sure I can fix a lot of the minor stuff", after all) are
- the slider at 06:04:941 (3) - (should be 3/4)
- adding claps, possibly custom, to the stick claps at 03:05:903 - and 03:12:057 -
- cleaning up those green inherited sections
Okorin wrote:
hi~
Irre raised some points which should be discussed imo.
additionally to that post i can't really tell if 02:30:566 (1) - isnt supposed to be ending on 02:30:550 - #blamesakuraburst, these are accurate
02:17:730 (3) - shouldnt this end on 02:17:954 - ? i'm pretty unsure about this but 1/8 sounds late, additionally agreeing that spacing can be super misleading here as it somehow indicates 02:17:730 (3,4) - are 1/4 apart while they arent Went over this in irre's mod. I'll change it to 1/4 if necessary, but I'm still saying I disagree.
03:27:890 (1) - i think sliderend actually sounds late, a thing around 03:28:435 - sounds more accurate... to me at least but then again it's late so im not too sure on this call. for this issue in particular I'm not confident in my timing skills due to poor hardware, if you want to help me pin it down, I'll be glad to go over it.
06:04:941 (3) - shouldnt this be same length as 06:08:018 (3) - 06:11:095 (3) - 06:14:172 (3) - cuz same sound This is one of the things I mentioned I'd be happy to change.
lowering spacing like 02:16:480 (4,5) - may help for 02:17:730 (3,4) - then?
Topic Starter
I mean, the concept there was that 02:16:480 (4,5) - is very much the "same sound", it just snaps at the end, while 02:18:018 (4,5,1) - is a very distinct triple and 02:17:730 (3) - is only extended because the hold it's meant to represent is a full 3/4s of a beat rather than 1/2. If you just individually look at them both as "sliders that end on the 1/8th tick before the next circle" then yeah it's not going to make sense but that's because you're missing the content and context around it.
Topic Starter
Quotations marked in Green have been accepted post-disqualification. Explanations follow as seen fit. This does mean, yes, I was bullshitting a couple of points ("bullshitting" being a popular lingo for "stretching reasoning", for better and worse) to stave off a potential DQ. Like many other mappers do. So please don't punch me. Anything but the belt Irreversible!
Okorin's post basically went over the same stuff Irreversible did.
Map will not be updated for a few hours,I'm really hungry. fetish pointed out it'd be weird to eat for four hours because it'd make me look like a fat american so i'll actually come out and say that i'll be enjoying some anime and visual novels instead
Shiirn wrote:
Irreversible wrote:
I've been talking about several inconsistencies in this map, but never really told you what I mean with that. I decided to spend some time to list some up.
01:20:133 (1,2) - Why have you decided to make this slider, and none of the rest? I do not quite hear anything that supports this in the song - could as well be two circles, right? Changed to two circles. Will figure out the SB situation before requalification.
01:48:018 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Considering that the strong beat is on the white tick here, this is pretty counterintuitive. If you let all the sliders end on red, it still follows what you intended to follow, but it supports the strong beats better. Irreversible mentioned that "the only spot i was making sense was on the offbeats" so I'm assuming that means he's okay with me denying these.
02:17:730 (3,4,5,1) - That spacing is really just something. You have higher spacing on 1/8 than on the 1/4. And then it gets higher again. Why? Changed the slider to end on blue tick for relevant consistency. It's not worth decreasing the spacing, as that hampers the independence of the triple, so I figure shortening the slider is a good middle ground.
02:25:710 (3,1) - You never really used that kind of antijump, so why have you decided for one here? Ctrl+G'd 02:25:903 (1) - to increase the spacing, and ctrl+g'd 2 as well to maintain the patterning, just flipped, of the previous combo. This solves any spacing-related issues neatly. I still think the anti-jump was more in line with my original reasoning, but I'll cave under pressure here.
02:55:903 (1,2,3,1,2) - What's that increase in spacing? The song literally stays the same. I still think that the actual spacing used wasn't of any particular negative influence, but this is one of those things where it's like "well yeah fine sure". But that kind of thing isn't something you just go "Well yeah, let's DQ the map and go through the entire process and spend everyone's time again requalifying over this". At least, I don't. Please don't punch me.
03:03:403 (2,3) - That's pretty much the same as 01:48:018 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Same response as above
03:04:749 (1,2,3) - Why are these in one pattern? The piano starts on 2, but it connects with 3 and 1... this is not really correct if you ask me. I'll figure this out later, it'll probably need a bit more than a "move note five pixels" solution and I don't want to change it haphazardly.
03:07:056 (3) - According to your logic (03:05:903 (4) -) this should be higher spacing. The whole part can be checked for that. This still follows proper in-map logic and consistency, if you're looking at it from the proper way (stick claps being the changing force, rather than basic measure-based pattern changes)
03:27:890 (1,2,1) - Why 1/6 and 1/4? And the spacing is heavily increased at points, why? Will need to go over this later.
03:46:095 (3) - This wiggle now really doesn't make sense. The sound is just as subtle as it could be.. Still don't know what you're exactly saying by this. Should this juts be straight? I think the wiggle is fine.
04:05:518 (1,2,3) - Again, this patterning is weird. Slider end of 1 does not go with 2 musically. Since this choice happens twice, it's internally consistent, even if some people disagree with it. And I honestly like it more this way.
05:40:326 (1) - I mean, so far you've only used smooth sliders how comes that you randomly decide to use a super special slider now? It would be really nice if you could accentuate the same sounds with similar stuff, especially in this part it could become a really nice effect. Right now, there is different sliders for everything which kind of defeats the purpose.. idk what parts you've been looking at but i'm pretty sure it's clear the sliders get progressively weirder over time...
06:08:018 (3) - There is one slider that end on a red tick, but this and some others end on blue, why? This has been fixed.
Other issues:
01:01:672 (1,1) - Why does this need two NCs? See referendum: "Sure, whatever" changes.
01:27:057 (3) - Imo that slider would look better if it had the same distance around the starting point. http://puu.sh/qT9Om/5135a73485.jpg (pretty optional) Still avoiding touching this slider..
02:30:566 (1) - I think someone could try fixing the mp3, so this doesn't have to be so weirdly unsnapped. Still #blamesakuraburst
04:18:980 (2) - A NC would be beneficial here since it's a new part. Still consistent with the other time this happened. New combo is used beforehand. Reasoning can be "Very end has a new combo and the new section doesn't want a new combo start at the red tick after it starts".
Okorin's post basically went over the same stuff Irreversible did.
Map will not be updated for a few hours,
you should try play Never7 -The End of Infinity-
Topic Starter
i actually did to be honest. Also Ever17 was one of my first reads and def top 10 in my favorite stories of all time
the fact that the entire fuckign plot was only adequately explained in an obscure bad ending pissed the ever living shit out of me
i'll never(7 hahaha) forget how fucking confused i was when the nadeshiko bitch holding the baby suddenly went fucking all berserker and then the story just fucking ENDED on the first playthrough
btw spoilers
I've read pretty much every single english visual novel worth reading (and a bunch that aren't, tbh) Check out them votes fam, 50 votes per page, 260 votes total.
the fact that the entire fuckign plot was only adequately explained in an obscure bad ending pissed the ever living shit out of me
i'll never(7 hahaha) forget how fucking confused i was when the nadeshiko bitch holding the baby suddenly went fucking all berserker and then the story just fucking ENDED on the first playthrough
btw spoilers
I've read pretty much every single english visual novel worth reading (and a bunch that aren't, tbh) Check out them votes fam, 50 votes per page, 260 votes total.
can you suggest me sum shit with really good twist what make me feel mindfucked?
Topic Starter
If you haven't read Sharin no Kuni - Himawari no Shoujo, it's got one or two really, really, really good twist(s), but otherwise it's a bit plain
Root Double is basically Ever17 except more modern and with a less psuedo-science bullshit theme (In that it's a lot more obvious that it's psuedo-science bullshit and doesn't try to pretend it's realistic like ever17 does) and has a pretty twist-filled plot (Although you start to expect the twists)
Steins;Gate doesn't really have many major twists, at least, they're more "holy shit it got worse" moments rather than "how did i not notice all this foreshadowing" twisting
And of course you can't forget Umineko, which is basically twist town. but you don't go into multi-million word stories just because you want "sum good shit", umineko takes some dedication to get through.
Little Busters! has a couple major twists but they're somewhat spoiled by the fact that they're basically the "It was His Sled" type of spoilers - if you see any sort of discussion about the story at all, you'll run into a spoiler. And also from KEY, Rewrite has some good ones. I literally almost threw up during Kotori's route because that shit was just disturbing.
There are a few more i'm sure but that's most of the good ones off the top of my head.
And to keep shit on topic, I've gone over the slow bits near the beginning and added/fixed up some hitsounding and aesthetic oversights. Real tiny shit.
Root Double is basically Ever17 except more modern and with a less psuedo-science bullshit theme (In that it's a lot more obvious that it's psuedo-science bullshit and doesn't try to pretend it's realistic like ever17 does) and has a pretty twist-filled plot (Although you start to expect the twists)
Steins;Gate doesn't really have many major twists, at least, they're more "holy shit it got worse" moments rather than "how did i not notice all this foreshadowing" twisting
And of course you can't forget Umineko, which is basically twist town. but you don't go into multi-million word stories just because you want "sum good shit", umineko takes some dedication to get through.
Little Busters! has a couple major twists but they're somewhat spoiled by the fact that they're basically the "It was His Sled" type of spoilers - if you see any sort of discussion about the story at all, you'll run into a spoiler. And also from KEY, Rewrite has some good ones. I literally almost threw up during Kotori's route because that shit was just disturbing.
There are a few more i'm sure but that's most of the good ones off the top of my head.
And to keep shit on topic, I've gone over the slow bits near the beginning and added/fixed up some hitsounding and aesthetic oversights. Real tiny shit.
thanks dud