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What makes reading a map difficult?

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Nameless
517 posts
Joined April 2014
Nameless
The amount of circles on the screen.
The order of which you need to hit the circles.
The layout/pattern of the circles.
The time of which you need to hit the circles.
The AR (Approach Rate) of the map.

Reading doesn't really have a definite definition in osu!, some people think of the term differently than another.However, most say that it is, as -Rinku- said, is seeing the circles and processing what motions you have to do to hit them all correctly.
ZenithPhantasm
ZenithPhantasm
Stacks and super high AR are a pain in the ass.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
What is harder to read: full overlap or let's say.. half-overlap?
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Kert wrote:

What is harder to read: full overlap or let's say.. half-overlap?
What does this mean? Example?
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Kert wrote:

What is harder to read: full overlap or let's say.. half-overlap?
Depends how long the pattern goes for,
patterns like tornado squares become hard because they require constant "adjusting" to the changing angles
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
Full


Half
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
I think full is harder. I've broken a lot of times on maps who do THE FUCKING BULLSHIT of having a fully stacked note at the end of a stream but having a time delay on it to break your combo. Like happy end of the world.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
That's a bit different situation. You'd probably broken if it wasn't a full overlap too. Most likely you just stream 1 circle more than needed and since it doesn't have a bigger spacing in the end - it's a surprise
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Kert wrote:

That's a bit different situation. You'd probably broken if it wasn't a full overlap too. Most likely you just stream 1 circle more than needed and since it doesn't have a bigger spacing in the end - it's a surprise
Yeah, and I feel that I wouldn't have streamed an extra note if I had known there was a delayed note at the end of the stream rather than assuming the stream had come to an end. Isn't that a misread?
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
It's a misread but not exactly because of the overlap - because the distance between last stream note and surprise stacked note does not reflect bigger time interval between them
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

Kert wrote:

What is harder to read: full overlap or let's say.. half-overlap?
Full. A better question is whether it's harder to read a half overlap than it is to read an almost-full overlap.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
Initially I wanted to set the peak at 50% overlap and gradually decrease bonus for other values, but that's probably not super important right now

So far I can get this data from maps:
- absolute angles between pairs objects (actually between each trio)
- changes in angles between current and previous object
- object density at any point of time
- overlap percentage of a pair of objects
- reaction time for reading an object. For now it implies that you can read an object only when you fully see it - it's not covered by hitbursts or other objects. Can be easily tweaked
- changes in spacing between current and previous object (I call it chaos value)

Stuff not done:
- slider body overlaps
- object density in a certain area at a certain time

I think it's time to start playing around with the data I got by checking a certain set of maps and comparing / making formulas with these values in order to define a single Reading metric value.

Can anyone compile a list of hard and easy to read maps where the reading difficulty difference is very distinguishable between them?
The Gambler
1,304 posts
Joined September 2013
The Gambler
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/76396
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/93555
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/142086
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/225677
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/41686

Any hard to read maps... Go with Nogard, Skystar, Rin, Broccoly, HanzeR or Hollow Wings maps.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl
If you're interested, Full Tablet developed a method of evaluating rhythmic complexity a while ago that might be of use to you.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert

Narrill wrote:

If you're interested, Full Tablet developed a method of evaluating rhythmic complexity a while ago that might be of use to you.
t/257272
I didn't know this thread existed!
We should combine our powers!
iderekmc
368 posts
Joined April 2013
iderekmc
oh, how strange nobody says "play more" it looks like people are growing up
HerO_0110
47 posts
Joined December 2012
HerO_0110
-
Last edited by HerO_0110 , edited 1 time in total.
ZenithPhantasm
ZenithPhantasm
Nice necropost.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

iderekmc wrote:

oh, how strange nobody says "play more" it looks like people are growing up
because this isn't a "how do i improve" thread...
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Nice necropost.
It's not like the thread reached dead end so
ZenithPhantasm
ZenithPhantasm

Kert wrote:

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Nice necropost.
It's not like the thread reached dead end so
Considering no one replied for 5 months I would say its dead. Now peppy will take all of our pp for necroing this thread.
Keihyan
132 posts
Joined March 2014
Keihyan
wide jump and short sliders and yeah, skystar and fanzhen
HerO_0110
47 posts
Joined December 2012
HerO_0110
-
Last edited by HerO_0110 , edited 1 time in total.
AndrewOmega
22 posts
Joined March 2014
AndrewOmega
Different patterns hold different object densities and challenges, however in general 90°angles do tend to be the hardest because you are not moving in a flowing motion as most movements in the game generally follow. This in mind, the difficulty of moving at an angle doesn't contribute to the difficulty of actually reading the note a super large amount. Patterns that change, however, do hold a larger difficulty in reading, and so it would make sense that patterns that are all 90°and change direction and shape would be the hardest to read.

This isn't with any calculations just a question for what people would think so here goes
Would closer notes that greatly increase object density and fill the screen up more, or would notes far away from each other and require more eye movement to do be harder?

Edit: would slider bodies be considered in how difficult they are to move in, such as fast long sliders being harder to read, or would slower bigger sliders be worse?
Fushimi Rio
Fushimi Rio

derminYagami wrote:

Edit: would slider bodies be considered in how difficult they are to move in, such as fast long sliders being harder to read, or would slower bigger sliders be worse?
A single slider isn't very difficult to read because players can remember it in some retrys. Also only fast sliders or slow sliders are not difficult to read too imo (e.g. fast sliders in the last kiai).
Frequent sv changes and overlapping sliderbodies could be really difficult for reading I guess. e.g. sv changes
E m i
E m i
omg imoutosan i love you
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

imoutosan wrote:

derminYagami wrote:

Edit: would slider bodies be considered in how difficult they are to move in, such as fast long sliders being harder to read, or would slower bigger sliders be worse?
A single slider isn't very difficult to read because players can remember it in some retrys. Also only fast sliders or slow sliders are not difficult to read too imo (e.g. fast sliders in the last kiai).
Frequent sv changes and overlapping sliderbodies could be really difficult for reading I guess. e.g. sv changes
Fast sliders very easy to memorize... https://osu.ppy.sh/b/821549 >.> <.<

Also, memorizing is the opposite of reading.
Fushimi Rio
Fushimi Rio

chainpullz wrote:

Fast sliders very easy to memorize... https://osu.ppy.sh/b/821549 >.> <.<

Also, memorizing is the opposite of reading.
I remember I said "A single slider"...
Of course, multiple sliders can be arranged into some really hard patterns (of reading), just like some hw's maps you listed.
And memorizing is the opposite of reading in some respects. But memorizing would affect the scores that players got. Since the topic is about the reading skills in scores, things that could be easily memorized should be somehow eliminated (or recalculated?).
tecu
97 posts
Joined May 2013
tecu
Stacked, temporally unevenly spaced circles on Hidden.
dung eater
2,396 posts
Joined December 2013
dung eater

chainpullz wrote:

Also, memorizing is the opposite of reading.
memorizing something is a good way to learn to read it and similiar things you might encounter later

when you know how it goes, brains have a better chance of making something out of the jumble on your screen
ManRei
7 posts
Joined August 2015
ManRei
For me : AR 11, BPM >250, massive jump, and pattern
N0thingSpecial
2,355 posts
Joined November 2015
N0thingSpecial
Im dyslexic so every map difficult waht !!1!1!!1!??
Hakj3r
30 posts
Joined August 2012
Hakj3r
Hmmm...
1. Amount of elements on screen. The lower AR and/or CS and/or higher BPM the harder it is. (EZDT? This is madness!)
2. Suddenly changing patterns/speeds. Those are really hard to catch, the higher AR and/or bigger spacing the harder it is.
3.
Sayorie
975 posts
Joined December 2014
Sayorie
Why you do this
DeathHydra
652 posts
Joined November 2015
DeathHydra

vietnam13231 wrote:

Hmmm...
1. Amount of elements on screen. The lower AR and/or CS and/or higher BPM the harder it is. (EZDT? This is madness!)
2. Suddenly changing patterns/speeds. Those are really hard to catch, the higher AR and/or bigger spacing the harder it is.
3.
Dude, you need to stop necroing threads. Not only once but twice wtf
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
This thread isn't over though
Just saying
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Does this mean I can make a post with examples that comes to the same conclusion that's probably already been posted in here before but I can't be arsed to read through this thread.

Because I'm bored enough to do that.
AndrewOmega
22 posts
Joined March 2014
AndrewOmega
will osu!!skills ever be able to count all your scores? a lot of peoples ez score arent in their top pp, but would be worth huge in reading, the same thing for precision if somone sets a score on cs7 hr, but it isnt worth enough pp it wont be on their top precision, i find that this would be a huge issue for reading considering how low pp for ez is. i know api restrictions but i was just wondering :)
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

derminYagami wrote:

cs7 hr, but it isnt worth enough pp
Good joke.
Dre-
123 posts
Joined October 2014
Dre-
Maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/74313 and this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/186340 are good examples of hard to read maps they have alot of tricky and oddly placed notes with lots of oddly placed anti jumps which are really hard to read imo Low AR and high bpm = hard to read and anything that involves anti jumps notes under sliders and odd mapping like skystar,hanzer ect is what i would consider hard to read. Also this for some reason even though I could read it fine https://osu.ppy.sh/s/33068
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