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At what point does fps increases have diminishing returns?

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autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology

Kheldragar wrote:

Zenny is our resident retard; pay him no attention. We use the RSI to keep him in check.
The thing is, I don't even see what's wrong with that post. I absolutely understand how to handle a mouse well - I win almost every single pub match in CS:GO I play and I only have 86 hours in the game, and barely understand any of the strategy or metagame. That gameplay clip is the shit and totally proves my point.

I think the implication is that I was saying that made me immediately good at this particular game, but I didn't say that anywhere.
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik

Philosofikal wrote:

Kheldragar wrote:

Zenny is our resident retard; pay him no attention. We use the RSI to keep him in check.
The thing is, I don't even see what's wrong with that post. I absolutely understand how to handle a mouse well - I win almost every single pub match in CS:GO I play and I only have 86 hours in the game, and barely understand any of the strategy or metagame. That gameplay clip is the shit and totally proves my point.

I think the implication is that I was saying that made me immediately good at this particular game, but I didn't say that anywhere.
Well if you admit that it doesn't make you good at this game, then what's the point of bringing it up, in an on-topic (or at least meant to be) section of an osu! forums? Cool story, you're good at cod or csgo, bring it to off-topic or whatever relevant section it's meant to be in.

Even in the original thread that you posted that cod gameplay in, look at the context, if you really didn't imply that knowing how to use a mouse in another game made you good at osu!, then why bother bringing it up?
autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology
Even in the original thread that you posted that cod gameplay in, look at the context, if you really didn't imply that knowing how to use a mouse in another game made you good at osu!, then why bother bringing it up?
I'm not the person who brought it up. Zenith follows me around Gameplay and Rankings and posts it in reply to half the posts I make, as if it's the only thing that defines me as a person. It's completely retarded and I don't get the point.

I brought it up originally because I basically gave the same tips that made me really good at mouse aim in everything else I've done. They've worked in many different games and there's no reason why they won't work here after a couple of years of practice. This game is not special when it comes to mouse control.

People questioned the legitimacy of my advice so I'm like, hey, I've gotten really good at mouse usage elsewhere, I have a system that works. I just happened to have visual evidence in this one particular game because I upload stuff to my YouTube, I never predicted there would be this huge nonsense backlash to it.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Philosofikal wrote:

Even in the original thread that you posted that cod gameplay in, look at the context, if you really didn't imply that knowing how to use a mouse in another game made you good at osu!, then why bother bringing it up?
I'm not the person who brought it up. Zenith follows me around Gameplay and Rankings and posts it in reply to half the posts I make, as if it's the only thing that defines me as a person. It's completely retarded and I don't get the point.

I brought it up originally because I basically gave the same tips that made me really good at mouse aim in everything else I've done. They've worked in many different games and there's no reason why they won't work here after a couple of years of practice. This game is not special when it comes to mouse control.

People questioned the legitimacy of my advice so I'm like, hey, I've gotten really good at mouse usage elsewhere, I have a system that works. I just happened to have visual evidence in this one particular game because I upload stuff to my YouTube, I never predicted there would be this huge nonsense backlash to it.
I gotta say I love how g&r has the ability to derail each and every single thread that's posted here. Isn't it lovely?

So as for the actual answer. First off, are you new to the internet? Because cod. Internet. Cod. Internet. No like. You were obviously going to get bashed for that video pretty much anywhere. Bringing it up originally was pretty obviously a mistake and just oh so happened to backfire so miserably that some people will always remember you as "that guy who posted a cod video on g&r". I'm among the most forgiving here but I'm sorry to tell you it is what it is.

The problem with your posts, you will recall, was not the content itself, but the way you posted said content. You posted as if your advice was the shit truth, while despite your best efforts to contribute (which, admittedly, could've been better), you just came off as incredibly cocky, because it was really all personal opinion (as I noted in one of my replies and as you said yourself, "here's something that works for me, why don't you try it?"). That's the whole reason you got bashed (that, and cod. cod too)

And on another note, mouse control in cod is barely as hard as csgo (in which pub matches are abso-fucking-lutely not proof of skill, or lack thereof) or this. Just figured I'd throw this in even though I'm pretty sure you'll disagree and try to take a dump on my head.


Here's a tip, though: don't.
drum drum
osu! Alumni
2,972 posts
Joined May 2014
drum drum

bigfeh wrote:

I gotta say I love how g&r has the ability to derail each and every single thread that's posted here. Isn't it lovely?
i forgot to ask if we could get back on topic
lets start
like
now
ZenithPhantasm
ZenithPhantasm
Hi drum drum! o/
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Hi drum drum! o/
hi drum drumerino
pls no lockerino

this is so going to get locked, isn't it?

Anyways, not even sure if game logic runs at the same rate as your framerate, because that reeks an awful lot like bullshit. Rendering != processing unless peppy has some seriously weird code going on there

I'd say the question hasn't been answered yet, so I'm serious with the "pls no lockerino" thing
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

bigfeh wrote:

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Hi drum drum! o/
hi drum drumerino
pls no lockerino

this is so going to get locked, isn't it?

Anyways, not even sure if game logic runs at the same rate as your framerate, because that reeks an awful lot like bullshit. Rendering != processing unless peppy has some seriously weird code going on there

I'd say the question hasn't been answered yet, so I'm serious with the "pls no lockerino" thing
http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/126791631310
http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/126803371470

You can also test yourself by playing an OD10 map with a circle on the middle of the screen every 1/2 beat (preferably with a map with exactly 2 or 3 notes per second), and comparing accuracy and hit error bars between 60fps and 1000+fps.
autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology

Full Tablet wrote:

You can also test yourself by playing an OD10 map with a circle on the middle of the screen every 1/2 beat (preferably with a map with exactly 2 or 3 notes per second), and comparing accuracy and hit error bars between 60fps and 1000+fps.
Literally what the fuck. This needs to be stickied somewhere, I feel bad for the poor sap that has been playing this game on 60fps Vsync and wondering why his accuracy is so bad.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Philosofikal wrote:

Full Tablet wrote:

You can also test yourself by playing an OD10 map with a circle on the middle of the screen every 1/2 beat (preferably with a map with exactly 2 or 3 notes per second), and comparing accuracy and hit error bars between 60fps and 1000+fps.
Literally what the fuck. This needs to be stickied somewhere, I feel bad for the poor sap that has been playing this game on 60fps Vsync and wondering why his accuracy is so bad.
Literally what the fuck too, but not for the poor guy whose accuracy is shit because he's playing at 60 FPS.

I mean, if game logic and rendering are together, then it means they're both probably on a single thread, which is kind of retarded. The game logic should be running separately from other stuff (go check this link out for what I'm talking about), and knowing peppy, it probably is (because he's good). Could there be some legacy code going on there though

Anyways, separate things should run on separate threads, and if they are, great. It'll update consistently and will work well. Tying rendering to pretty much anything else is a bad decision because FPS fluctuates a lot, particularly if you don't have a frame buffer (which in some cases, you really shouldn't since buffers increase input lag). If the game really runs like you guys are saying it does, then this needs some serious rework done.


EDIT: wow, holy shit
just read tom on askfm and yeah, turns out the code is retarded. Can't really blame them though, because the game's old. This should still, however, be priority number fucking zero because it's literally game breaking
Saphirshroom
627 posts
Joined May 2013
Saphirshroom

bigfeh wrote:

Can't really blame them though, because the game's old. This should still, however, be priority number fucking zero because it's literally game breaking
You can blame them because, as you've said, it's priority number fucking zero.
Good code is still good in 5 years from now. Which means osu is coded badly.
Last edited by Saphirshroom , edited 1 time in total.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
How is it game breaking when there is zero negative impact from this 'bad code' besides low fps affecting accuracy?
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

B1rd wrote:

How is it game breaking when there is zero negative impact from this 'bad code' besides low fps affecting accuracy?

Because accuracy is like, important or something
Saphirshroom
627 posts
Joined May 2013
Saphirshroom

B1rd wrote:

How is it game breaking when there is zero negative impact from this 'bad code' besides low fps affecting accuracy?
I heard accuracy is quite important. It's also a very bad kind of game breaking because it is so subtle that you blame it on yourself instead of bad programming.
-sev
875 posts
Joined February 2014
-sev
Maybe this wouldn't be an issue if people stopped playing on toasters.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
I said with low fps. Anything over 240 is negligible. Only people with toasters are affected.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Saphirshroom wrote:

bigfeh wrote:

Can't really blame them though, because the game's old. This should still, however, be priority number fucking zero because it's literally game breaking
You can blame them because, as you've said, it's priority number fucking zero.
Good code is still good in 5 years for now. Which means osu is coded badly.
Yeah, I actually rewrote that sentence 5 times because for one, I understand legacy code. But on the other hand, yeah, it's game breaking, retarded and should be fixed asap.

edit:
for you people who aren't programmers (aka normal people), let me put it this way: imagine if you had a car that would only turn if you were flooring it, because for some reason, one day someone decided the steering wheel should depend on the engine to work. This is literally how bad this is

edit 2:

B1rd wrote:

I said with low fps. Anything over 240 is negligible. Only people with toasters are affected.
not true at all. read thread for reason
Saphirshroom
627 posts
Joined May 2013
Saphirshroom

B1rd wrote:

I said with low fps. Anything over 240 is negligible. Only people with toasters are affected.
Oh yeah, let's make a low-end game and completely turn it on its head because game logic is dependant on fps. Let's also not tell the player about it so they can enjoy playing that low-end game on their low-end computers without ever knowing what on earth is going on.
Way to find excuses for badly designed code.
autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology
I think I should make a thread about this. This is critical. Should I make it a feature request or something here for everyone to complain in?
otoed1
639 posts
Joined May 2014
otoed1
The answer to this thread doesn't really exist, what defines diminishing returns in this case? Your FPS will continue to have an effect all the way up to the refresh rate of your input devices. What defines diminishing is difficult. Frankly, I don't notice the difference between when I played at 600fps and playing at 1400 fps now. There is an obvious different sub 400 however, and playing at 240 feels like a slideshow.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

otoed1 wrote:

The answer to this thread doesn't really exist, what defines diminishing returns in this case? Your FPS will continue to have an effect all the way up to the refresh rate of your input devices. What defines diminishing is difficult. Frankly, I don't notice the difference between when I played at 600fps and playing at 1400 fps now. There is an obvious different sub 400 however, and playing at 240 feels like a slideshow.
Fun fact, you don't actually see the difference between 400 and 240 unless you have a 400Hz monitor, which doesn't exist
Saphirshroom
627 posts
Joined May 2013
Saphirshroom

bigfeh wrote:

Fun fact, you don't actually see the difference between 400 and 240 unless you have a 400Hz monitor, which doesn't exist
Placebo makes you feel better though, so there's that.
autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology
Bottom line is the fact that it's just shit design that isn't really widely known. If they were more up front about it, it wouldn't be a huge problem. The fact that they even offer 60fps as a frame limiting option in this context is shocking.
PeanutBader
14 posts
Joined November 2014
PeanutBader
As long as it is above 60 it should be fine I guess.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Philosofikal wrote:

Bottom line is the fact that it's just shit design that isn't really widely known. If they were more up front about it, it wouldn't be a huge problem. The fact that they even offer 60fps as a frame limiting option in this context is shocking.
I wouldn't call it shocking, since I was able to point out the reason straight up from the beginning: it's pretty obvious that shit like this exists because the game is 8 years old.

The problem is that if this were any other genre (shooter, strategy, mmo or whatever), it would be simply "retarded". In a rhythm game, however, if this isn't game breaking, then I genuinely don't know what is
Noobsicle
674 posts
Joined October 2013
Noobsicle
the only benefit i see capping 60fps is giving more priority to resources for recording gameplay at 60fps

only applies if your hardware is potato though
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Noobsicle wrote:

the only benefit i see capping 60fps is giving more priority to resources for recording gameplay at 60fps

only applies if your hardware is potato though
the only benefit I see capping ANY FPS is not heating your hardware too much
deletemyaccount
730 posts
Joined May 2013
Topic Starter
deletemyaccount

bigfeh wrote:

the only benefit I see capping ANY FPS is not heating your hardware too much
I guess you could also argue that limiting framerates can be for reducing tearing; but with the extremely high framerates people play osu!, you're going to get screen tearing anyway. The new adaptive vsync technology with newer monitors also wouldn't change anything because they only apply for an effective range which varies from manufacturers.

Maybe someday we'll get 144hz + monitors when consoles die and everyone realises that the human eye doesn't see in frames per second.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Philantropist wrote:

bigfeh wrote:

the only benefit I see capping ANY FPS is not heating your hardware too much
I guess you could also argue that limiting framerates can be for reducing tearing; but with the extremely high framerates people play osu!, you're going to get screen tearing anyway. The new adaptive vsync technology with newer monitors also wouldn't change anything because they only apply for an effective range which varies from manufacturers.
2000 FPS, no tearing
beat this shit

Philantropist wrote:

Maybe someday we'll get 144hz + monitors when consoles die and everyone realises that the human eye doesn't see in frames per second.
I like you
Infevo
463 posts
Joined October 2014
Infevo
game logic is entirely depending on fps? then a 60fps player will have 6ms less to hit a 300 on OD11? are you serious?

bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Infevo wrote:

game logic is entirely depending on fps? then a 60fps player will have 6ms less to hit a 300 on OD11? are you serious?

Yeah, we're serious. I have a consistent hit window that's over 16ms bigger than someone who plays at 60 FPS

EDIT: When playing std OD10 +DT, you'll get 100s instead of 300s on about 22% of the notes just because you're playing at 60 FPS.
Infevo
463 posts
Joined October 2014
Infevo

bigfeh wrote:

Infevo wrote:

game logic is entirely depending on fps? then a 60fps player will have 6ms less to hit a 300 on OD11? are you serious?

Yeah, we're serious. I have a consistent hit window that's over 16ms bigger than someone who plays at 60 FPS

EDIT: When playing std OD10 +DT, you'll get 100s instead of 300s on about 22% of the notes just because you're playing at 60 FPS.
lol this is so bad =D then the whole idea of OD is pointless as it is now... they should just change it to how fighting games work. make OD 11 the hardest 300s (1 framers @ 60fps) and simply work their way down as the od drops...
like
300s 17ms @ OD11
300s 34ms @ OD10 (2frames)
300s 51ms @ OD9 (3frames) and so on...

going one frame over or under makes it a 100. another frame would be a 50. something like that. if changing the the core mechanics is too hard, just apply a change to od so it isn't broken...

/me quickly adjusts up to 576fps...
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Infevo wrote:

bigfeh wrote:

Yeah, we're serious. I have a consistent hit window that's over 16ms bigger than someone who plays at 60 FPS

EDIT: When playing std OD10 +DT, you'll get 100s instead of 300s on about 22% of the notes just because you're playing at 60 FPS.
lol this is so bad =D then the whole idea of OD is pointless as it is now... they should just change it to how fighting games work. make OD 11 the hardest 300s (1 framers @ 60fps) and simply work their way down as the od drops...
like
300s 17ms @ OD11
300s 34ms @ OD10 (2frames)
300s 51ms @ OD9 (3frames) and so on...

going one frame over or under makes it a 100. another frame would be a 50. something like that. if changing the the core mechanics is too hard, just apply a change to od so it isn't broken...

/me quickly adjusts up to 576fps...
well yeah, I feel like that's both a great idea I would never come up with but also retarded for some reason. That, and it's near impossible to implement, since FPS fluctuates a LOT (particularly if you don't have a frame buffer) and it'd absolutely tank performance on what already is a single threaded game
Infevo
463 posts
Joined October 2014
Infevo
of course it is retarded. =D

it is just a question of what is more retarded...
a method which has worked since forever for another genre but would cause inconsistency on really (like REAALLY) old machines for osu! or
a pointless od-table which doesnt apply to any standard fps in addition to a system which strongly favors having a better performance and higher framerate while trying to enforece low system requirements in beatmappng/storyboarding(sb load)/skinning. frankly, the latter doesn't make any remote sense whatsoever.

btw. i dont need frame buffer for street fighter 4 on a fairly old computer and i have stable 60fps without any fluctuation and without vsync. fps fluctuation in osu! is kind of a bad argument...

my suggested system can be applied to the current frame/game logic converter by scaling down game logic to 60hz (or setting this paremeter to 60hz globally for every player). then use an od-table like mine which is based on 60fps entirely. easy.

edit: fun fact: the current od-table requires you to have 10000fps combined with 10000hz polling rate of your system + keyboard to not have any disadvantage/miss out on ms to hit a 300. (this does apply to different ods across the board)
Last edited by Infevo , edited 1 time in total.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Infevo wrote:

of course it is retarded. =D

it is just a question of what is more retarded...
a method which has worked since forever for another genre but would cause inconsistency on really (like REAALLY) old machines for osu! or
a pointless od-table which doesnt apply to any standard fps in addition to a system which strongly favors having a better performance and higher framerate while trying to enforece low system requirements in beatmappng/storyboarding(sb load)/skinning. frankly, the latter doesn't make any remote sense whatsoever.

btw. i dont need frame buffer for street fighter 4 on a fairly old computer and i have stable 60fps without any fluctuation and without vsync. fps fluctuation in osu! is kind of a bad argument...

my suggested system can be applied to the current frame/game logic converter by scaling down game logic to 60hz (or setting this paremeter to 60hz globally for every player). then use an od-table like mine which is based on 60fps entirely. easy.
framerates fluctuate in EVERY system, regardless of... well, anything. Would you also mind pointing out which game works like that? Because someone should've lost their job over this

You have a stable framerate simply because you cap it, but since the point here is to get the highest number you can, capping it in this game is inherently retarded save for special cases. My FPS is anywhere between 2200 and 1800, averaging about 2000 during play. It gets updated about 2000 times per second.

Now tell me that's not a colossal performance hit

Scaling game logic to 60Hz is even more retarded because as stated, you miss notes playing at 60Hz. I mean, do I even need to explain this?
autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology

Infevo wrote:

btw. i dont need frame buffer for street fighter 4 on a fairly old computer and i have stable 60fps without any fluctuation and without vsync. fps fluctuation in osu! is kind of a bad argument...
I have news for you, that shit was released in 2009. It was optimized to run on a PS3/360 at 60FPS. Anything that is not a potato will run it at 60FPS. Then again, SF4 was a flagship game made by an extremely talented developmental team, backed by a company with millions, if not billions of dollars at its disposal. This game... ahem, is not anywhere near as well crafted or funded. The frame rate in this game drops more easily than a grandma in a slippery shower.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Philosofikal wrote:

Infevo wrote:

btw. i dont need frame buffer for street fighter 4 on a fairly old computer and i have stable 60fps without any fluctuation and without vsync. fps fluctuation in osu! is kind of a bad argument...
I have news for you, that shit was released in 2009. It was optimized to run on a PS3/360 at 60FPS. Anything that is not a potato will run it at 60FPS. Then again, SF4 was a flagship game made by an extremely talented developmental team, backed by a company with millions, if not billions of dollars at its disposal. This game... ahem, is not anywhere near as well crafted or funded. The frame rate in this game drops more easily than a grandma in a slippery shower.
Not true. osu! is, performance-wise, a solid game. In the name of fairness, I think I should point that out
Infevo
463 posts
Joined October 2014
Infevo

Philosofikal wrote:

Infevo wrote:

btw. i dont need frame buffer for street fighter 4 on a fairly old computer and i have stable 60fps without any fluctuation and without vsync. fps fluctuation in osu! is kind of a bad argument...
I have news for you, that shit was released in 2009. It was optimized to run on a PS3/360 at 60FPS. Anything that is not a potato will run it at 60FPS. Then again, SF4 was a flagship game made by an extremely talented developmental team, backed by a company with millions, if not billions of dollars at its disposal. This game... ahem, is not anywhere near as well crafted or funded. The frame rate in this game drops more easily than a grandma in a slippery shower.
nothing new here. but keep in mind osu! as a programm is way less complex. other than the cursor movements, hit lighting, score, life and error bar nothing has to be calculated real time. a whole play's map video data can be prebuffered without any complex algorithm involved (just imply you have the memory).
autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology

bigfeh wrote:

Not true. osu! is, performance-wise, a solid game. In the name of fairness, I think I should point that out
It's extremely graphically efficient, but it has catastrophic frame rate drops way too often. It's been so bad for me that I've lost SS ranks on the last few notes twice in a row, just because my client froze for a second. I'd have an SS on Holy Virgin DT if it wasn't for that.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Infevo wrote:

Philosofikal wrote:

I have news for you, that shit was released in 2009. It was optimized to run on a PS3/360 at 60FPS. Anything that is not a potato will run it at 60FPS. Then again, SF4 was a flagship game made by an extremely talented developmental team, backed by a company with millions, if not billions of dollars at its disposal. This game... ahem, is not anywhere near as well crafted or funded. The frame rate in this game drops more easily than a grandma in a slippery shower.
nothing new here. but keep in mind osu! as a programm is way less complex. other than the cursor movements, hit lighting, score, life and error bar nothing has to be calculated real time. a whole play's map video data can be prebuffered without any complex algorithm involved (just imply you have the memory).
Okay, so the video can be prebuffered. Your point? The video isn't being rendered, so the difference is effectively nonexistent. osu! is complex and needs to be precise on a millisecond level. A lot of stuff needs to be calculated real time, but yes, they're not incredibly difficult for the computer - hence the low minimum and recommended system specifications.

Now, it has come a long way since its inception and has obviously become more taxing on hardware resources since then. Your suggestion, however, takes this to a whole new level


Philosofikal wrote:

bigfeh wrote:

Not true. osu! is, performance-wise, a solid game. In the name of fairness, I think I should point that out
It's extremely graphically efficient, but it has catastrophic frame rate drops way too often. It's been so bad for me that I've lost SS ranks on the last few notes twice in a row, just because my client froze for a second. I'd have an SS on Holy Virgin DT if it wasn't for that.
Couldn't agree more. Freezes sometimes for me too
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