well i wil stay here, still hoping for that P4 game.

Ah yeah almost forgot:

I'll leave this here for you guys since you guys will probably need it anyway:

Mafia iso generator

Instructions here: p/1062690

Hello everyone, i dont play mafia but i thought about experimental setups after reading trough the wiki... so id like to have you guys give your oponion on the following setup:

The setup resolves around 2 opposing teams of belivers with each having a powerfull oracle (explained later) these teams have a private chat with their respective members and win when the opposing team is extinct. Then theres the towns people who want all belivers gone, they have the usuall town classes and win when the amount of belivers is under a certain tereshold.
In case that two win conditions are met, the town people will take pirioty, ex. the last green beliver died and there only 2 red belivers remaining while the towns goal is less than 3 belivers, the town will win.

There no night kills (in the normal sense) but there classes (executioners) which can kill people, in all three parties, which have varying restrictions such as night/day only and/or needing some kind of energy (need to fleesh this out more, will likely be anonymous votes via PM to mod, see the touhou game's prayer for sanae).

Other than the normal and common Mafia classes are these special classes available:


Orace

Each beliver party got one of these.
The oracle can choose between a number of events and conditions which last from dawn of the day to the dawn of the next day (but a oracle cant choose the same event repeatedly to pervent completly locking out a player.):

Silence. Exempts one target from speaking, this includes the faction chat. Abilities and votes are still possible. Basically the opposite of stump.

Rest. Stumps one target.

Quiet night. All night actions (except votes, prayers for the executioners and similar) by anyone will fail.

Hot day. All day actions (except votes, prayers for the executioners and similar) by anyone will fail.

In addition when the oracle is killed by an ability, the killer will also die.

Quiet night/hot day are announced when their respective phase starts but rest and silence are not.


Recruiter

Each beliver party got one to two of them depending on the game size.
They can PM the mod to ping a player to check if they are a closet beliver, when they are the player in question will change the modifier to recruited and switch to the recruiters team.


Closet beliver

The town got a few of these depending on the game size.
This is actually not a class but a modifier and allows Recruiters to recruit the player in question.

What game size and class distribution would you suggest?

The single biggest problem with that set-up is that it can become impossible for a mafia team to win despite never losing all their members. This is especially a problem since the oracle kills the killer upon dying.

Cults are expressly bastard modding. They are extraordinarily difficult to balance (if not impossible entirely) and having them in the game can cause issues with the "play to your win condition" rule. In this specific case, it's can be in town's best interests for all the closet believers to claim immediately... but that would give the people with that role pause as it could be playing against their win condition if they get recruited.

The idea was to have the cults to fight for influence within the town to use their lynch ability to kill the other clan but i can see how thats a problem, what would you suggest? Alllowing the night kills? That would mean 3 if not more deaths (due the executioners) per game cycle. I feel like thats too much.
The Oracles kill the killer thing aids that, i want to discourage the cults to use the executioners without carefull planning ahead and instead focus on tricking town into killing the enemy.

As for the closet belivers, i think about their win "as person" not "as team" meaning the closet beliver either chooses to play scummy to get noticed by the cults and therefore recruited or play towny while hiding the fact that they're closet and hope that they never get recruited and if they still do get recruited, change their strategy accordingly.

In any case, its bad for the closet to claim their modifier since that leads either to getting recruited by one cult and promptly get killed by the other cult or (less likely) being killed by town because they are a risik factor.

I dont know about the balancing, since i have absolutely no experience with Mafia id probably have problems with balancing any setups... :s

Granger wrote:

The idea was to have the cults to fight for influence within the town to use their lynch ability to kill the other clan but i can see how thats a problem, what would you suggest? Alllowing the night kills? That would mean 3 if not more deaths (due the executioners) per game cycle. I feel like thats too much.
The Oracles kill the killer thing aids that, i want to discourage the cults to use the executioners without carefull planning ahead and instead focus on tricking town into killing the enemy.

Mafia is fundamentally about an informed minority vs an uninformed majority. Multiball (multiple mafia teams) can still adhere to this, but it becomes a bit of an issue when it deviates from this general principle.

The reason is because town has to get rid of every anti-town faction in order to win the game. In this sense, it should be positive for the town every time they manage to eliminate one (or one gets eliminated in general). Naturally there are a few small exceptions in some cases in regular games, but those situations can be naturally deduced and become known information for the town.

The problem with this set-up is that town could end up lynching one group into extinction with incredible accuracy, but then they just end up losing anyway because the other mafia team managed to dwindle down the town by killing and recruiting them at night. It's one case where the town played perfectly, but in such a way that they handed themselves a loss.

Cults are fundamentally imbalanced in general as well. The amount of mafia/anti-town in a game can be roughly measured and known to be pretty close to accurate from the start with it becoming clearer over time, but the cult has a very disastrous effect. Instead of the information of anti-town being more easy to tell over time, it becomes increasingly impossible to have any idea whatsoever. You could get to LyLo and have absolutely no way of knowing as such. This is the fundamental reason why cults are considered bastard modding, and this isn't even considering the set-up specific issues with cults.

So overall, balancing this set-up isn't as simple as you'd think. There's a fundamental issue with the set-up itself, and there is so much possibility for the winner to be decided over pure luck instead of skill that I'm not sure it can be balanced.

If we started hosting a normal + mini game concurrently again, would there be enough demand for it?

I can handle over 5 games at a time so it's always fine for me.

I'd /in for both

Oh btw, just ftr imma use plurality lynch on my next modded game that i put on the mod queue.
Wanna see how different they behave from having Majority lynches games.

Was thinking of using Bankable Deadlines but not sure how many ppl would like that, discuss?

I don't think it matters too much tbh, well at least in the games I have played day length hasn't felt too short, but waiting out 48h nights was a pain, it should last until all night actions have been submitted I think.

I've always done 24h nights in osu!, if this was MS it'd be a different story but yeah.

My deadlines here are usually 1 week days and 24h nights (it used to be double that but it felt like the days would never end along with osu!'s activity or lack thereof)

I agree with 24h nights, 48 seems a bit too much for this specially since we have a single game going it makes the forum kinda... boring?

Also Im up to play in case we get a normal + mini going.

I have my nights last 48 hours because of time zone issues. 24 hours is too short for some scumteams to be able to communicate.

EDIT: I should clarify. I originally had my first modded game set to 24 hours, but I had a request to extend night's deadline because of this reason.

I see, but is there a problem with having the night end once all night actions have been submitted? Scum can just wait with submitting their nightkill if they feel they need the whole night duration/couldn't talk due to timezone issues.

Well we will see how GIM2 fares, considering the randomness and freedom it brings onto peoples alignments and roles.

If anyone has any questions on how that setup works before it's up for modding they can check the previous thread or ask me.

Drezi wrote:

I see, but is there a problem with having the night end once all night actions have been submitted? Scum can just wait with submitting their nightkill if they feel they need the whole night duration/couldn't talk due to timezone issues.

I'm not comfortable with this since it could result in clearing people based on timing of night starting and ending, but I will address it in another way in the next game I host.

This place's become quite quiet.

everyone left with you sakura. there is no more gif, pieguy, rb, heck even sephibro (though he makes occassional comments still).

basically it's the same 9 guys playing the same set up because there simply aren't enough people to sustain more.

GiF went to korea for about 2 months, little before i left, currently trying to convince him to come back
pieguy doesn't wanna come back because reasons i dont know if im allowed to say.
rb and sephibro no idea, i thought sephibro stopped playing because "We're too bad at mafia"

Tanzklaue wrote:

basically it's the same 9 guys playing the same set up because there simply aren't enough people to sustain more.

Then i shall bring variety!

Edit: WHy am i not using the edit function... TOO MUCH MAFIA!!!

:/ whatever bothers pieguy, i wish him best of luck in solving whatever the issue is. though i imagine it's something related to people on this site. rb is away because work and school crush him atm or at least did when he disappeared 3 months ago.

what we really need is that we are less intimidating to new people. currently we are way too elitist for most people to wat to join. we also need games that are strictly for newcomers, that have one or two experts in them to guide the newcomers. also, we need to do something to combat activity issues. if you don't plan on being active in a game, don't join. i beg you.

Doesn't pieguy left because he always get into 1v1 with Sakura most of the games?
I'd assume that because it happens quite often lately.

[8:29:37 PM] pieguy: uh fine w/ me

So I shall.

Basically he says that if he starts playing mafia here again then everytime he thinks about osu! he's gonna think about mafia and he wants to avoid that, MS is pretty much the only place i see him at lately and even there i rarely see him.

so he wants to keep osu and mafia apart?

Something like that, i think he wants to not be thinking about mafia 24/7

Tanzklaue wrote:

if you don't plan on being active in a game, don't join. i beg you.

Imma quote some smart guy for this:

"If you don't have time to play, you have no business joining games." - Pjovek

Vote: pieguy

obviously him wanting to stay away from mafia means that he is mafia.

Military annoying yo. Work is fine now, just school. Dont have stable internet though. I just moved in to a new home.

requesting life time mafia ban for BRBP.

also hey rb o/

Hi

Dunno if he's gonna be banned from all games, but I certainly have him in my blacklist for any games I mod.

Tanzklaue wrote:

requesting life time mafia ban for BRBP.

Take my stars!
Oh wait, wrong thread.

NH's game filled so fast

Edit: Just wanted to share this setup and looking for some feedback before putting it on queue.

Seems like I come back and there's a sudden increase of players, I didn't know you guys liked me that much <3

Yup you are the only reason I am playing

I'm a lot more confident about activity now, so I'll start working on one of my setups.

sakura is not the hero the mafia subforum deserves, but the hero it needs right now.

Meh sorry Sakura, but Normal games are boring for me

But normal games are the most intense though.

I'm glad Sakura is back ^^

Lets discuss this set-up

DebatableMafia2

10P game. Closed set-up(I'll be choosing the roles....YOU WON'T KNOW =P)
7Town
2Mafia
1 3rd party

Only 2Known roles out of the 10Roles.
1Mafia CompulsiveRoleCop
1Town CompulsiveRolecop

Mechanics:(More like a big twist)
Both cop will switch reports. The Mafia Rolecop report will be outed at DayStart while TownRoleCop report will go to the mafia's QT.
You cannot target the same target twice in a row UNTIL a Rolecop dies.


Any comments or suggestions? ;3

since it's a closed setup it's better to discuss it in private with a reviewer who wont take part of the game (or more like won't be able to)

Sakura wrote:

since it's a closed setup it's better to discuss it in private with a reviewer who wont take part of the game (or more like won't be able to)

I'm looking for suggestion/comments more on the Mechanics of the set-up because it's going to affect both rolecops a lot.

I don't get the reason of why the reports are made public? Looks like awkward to me, also if they must perform their actions might as well remove that mechanic and call them compulsive (must use their action each night, if no action is sent the action target is RNG'd)

updated. The reason I want the mafia rolecop report to be made public is for town to know who's clear instead of: Mafia kills off town rolecop. RIP all the town clears because both cop exchanges report so no towncop = no mafia rolecop report and any previous clears are gone too.
A second reason is because of the roles I'm picking for the remaining 6towns.

and as usual, my set-up is highly depedent on night actions so outing a clear might not be detrimental for town at all.

Haha secret jester. Wins while trying to survive.


Wheres that puella magi theme!

Mine? The setups done and looks like it's next to go. I'll reveal the gimmick when the thread starts.

These forums can't be seen from the main index.

Edit:

I thought I was somehow responsible for a second and it scared the shit out of me.

Welcome back, mafia thread.

I still don't know how this works.

Is there anything in particular you are confused on?

I was thinking that someone could make a nice post in General Discussion about Mafia to potentially recruit some new players. I believe people don't even notice such section even exists most of the time or are discouraged by a lack of any welcome/guidance.

I wouldn't mind doing that.. Unless someone else wanted to.

Someone should sticky it though.

I find it hard for someone to not be able to see it.

The fact that it's visible doesn't mean people actually check it out. If we try to explain the basics to them on the GD forums (which is more popular) we might get some people interested.

oh hey shit's actually alive again.

How to play mafia? I never played it before

Is irc mafia still a thing? Should I unpin it?

It's not really a thing anymore that I know of, but dkun would be a better person to ask about that than anyone else.

Pls bring it back, I want to play chaos again

I'd join IRC mafia too again.

idk about how IRC mafia works but I'm interested in joining both that and forum mafia

From what I've seen this looks sweet

Ohai Tess!

Heyhey Sakura

I see you want to get your hands dirty with blood play mafia

I really do, it looks pretty awesome. I've been reading the Orange Juice thread, if all games are like that this'll be interesting. Also what's up with this IRC mafia thing? It sounds fun too

IRC-Mafia works similar to this mafia, but it's real-time. You go on an IRC-Chat (which is specially prepared for mafia, which commands and such) and play with others. Difference is that rounds are much shorter and that it's automatized.

WELL WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR

It's a bit difficult to get people together (timezones etc.).. most I know (and play this game) are from oversea which makes it a bit difficult. I think CalignoBot asked me some time ago, maybe we can ask him for further details.

well, thing is the one that runs the IRC server is dkun and i haven't heard from him.
Could try mafiascum's irc tho.

Forum is the best one to play across all time zones.

I can try reaching him in Steam, I'll tell you if I hear further.

But wow tho it's been a while since we've had this much interest in mafia, definitively was a good time to revive the forum.

I'm too excited to play ;; getting impatient for the OJ game to finish

It'll take a while to finish, however i may need a replacement soon.

I'm pretty sure the spot we used for IRC Mafia last still exists, I just literally forgot the link to it.

If I could find my way back to it and we could get daisuki back up, we could start using it again since I had admin powers there.

If you mean the whitelist one, i still have that link.

The older one i have no idea.

Sakura wrote:

If you mean the whitelist one, i still have that link.

The older one i have no idea.

Sure, what is the link?

Wow everyone is all back. I have no time though. Been doing lots of volunteering lately, which I really enjoy. Will have fun reading the games though.

Raging Bull wrote:

Wow everyone is all back. I have no time though. Been doing lots of volunteering lately, which I really enjoy. Will have fun reading the games though.

apply my mod :'(

I haven't played a game so far where PMs are allowed, it sounds refreshing could someone do one of those perhaps?

I shouldn't really be saying this, but please do remember to not post when a game is in Night Phase (After the game mod posts the lynch scene).

The 3 posts in that one game I'm not allowed to talk about were posted by accident and simultaneously with the lynch scene (sent about 1-2 minutes after it).

Everyone knows that it's not allowed to write during the Night.

minute difference posts are usually okay. 30 miutes however...

me or sakura can take care of it

So I've been thinking about this for a while.. How would a Holy Grail War Mafia work?
14 players - 11 town, 3 mafia?
There are 7 "Masters" and 7 "Servants". The 7 masters have three command spells which they can use to command their servants. Though after a master used all three, they wouldn't be able to control their servants anymore. This would make them a vanilla I guess? Another way to become vanilla is if one's servant is killed. And then I guess there's a qt link for each pairs.
Hmm.. maybe masters won't be VTs and they can still kill each other but they can't kill other servants because servants > masters

and then fucking Berserker is the most OP role because Noble Phantasm

What do you guys think?

The "Of Gods and Men" setup I had in the queue a while back had a somewhat similar concept.

I personally think that vanilla masters getting a kill might be too much. If there's already 21 'powers' in the game, there really doesn't need to be more.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, you'd have to be very careful to design it in a way that wouldn't be easily broken with a massclaim. Just by claiming what powers each pair has, it would be pretty difficult to not break the game for town.

Well, the servants have their own powers too so I guess there's 28 powers in total...

Command spells can be used to change or block their servants' actions.

Powers won't affect alignment. A master can be scum while the servant is town or vice versa.

The problem with having a lot of power is that you have to keep town from confirming too many people's alignments one way or the other. Massclaiming and directing night actions is very dangerous for scum if not properly planned against.

A game that prevents massclaim?

Actually, power role heavy games should be designed predominantly around a mass claim happening day one.

Navizel wrote:

So I've been thinking about this for a while.. How would a Holy Grail War Mafia work?
14 players - 11 town, 3 mafia?
There are 7 "Masters" and 7 "Servants". The 7 masters have three command spells which they can use to command their servants. Though after a master used all three, they wouldn't be able to control their servants anymore. This would make them a vanilla I guess? Another way to become vanilla is if one's servant is killed. And then I guess there's a qt link for each pairs.
Hmm.. maybe masters won't be VTs and they can still kill each other but they can't kill other servants because servants > masters

and then fucking Berserker is the most OP role because Noble Phantasm

What do you guys think?

Maybe you could use Command Spells to gain an additional vote as well. I didn't like the idea of scum/mafia servant/master pairs, but it reminds me of Gil/Tokiomi so it would probably work. Maybe you could tone Berserker down by removing his ability to vote? But giving a really crazy role to make up for that. I think massclaiming on day one would be silly - think of the fate series where the Servants try to hide their Noble Phantasm for as long as they can to be able to launch surprise attacks and prevent counterstrategies.

I imagine this could actually be a really cool idea.

On another note, could you give an example of what a role might look like? Like one master and one servant example.

I'm thinking of preventing mass claims. In Fate series, revealing a servan't true name can put them in a disadvantage.
Instead of a scum-town pair, maybe I could just use the three to be scums and the rest are town.
I don't have any idea about the roles of a master and a servant yet. Only the three command spells one.
Maybe something like one of Shirou's command spell can suppress Saber's Noble Phantasm which is 1-shot vig or smth

Why not put four scums, two pairs?

Also, an idea for roles of master and servant could be:

^Alignment-specific abilities with non-alignment specific roles/NPs would prevent any significant massclaims. I could say I'm Assassin but they'd still not know whether I'm town or scum, even if they knew I'm Assassin Hassan. In the case of Division, even if my identity is compromised, my alignment remains a secret.


Here's an example with Berserker:

In this case, the only differences for the scum versions could be the following:
...Not gonna lie, I tried my best to balance this (with constant death looming and also having to exchange usage of the NP for your only chance to vote) but it still looks kinda OP lol. Anyway, those are some examples of how it could work. Balancing this would be pretty hard, I can already tell. Or I just suck at this.

Also, these were made assuming same-team pairs. Different team pairs would make some of this rather disastrous lol. What do you think?

I don't think different alignment pairs would be a problem, that's where command seals could shine? well it comes down to whether you want mason pairs vs a scumteam or 2p neightbourhoods.

4 scum would be too much for a 14p game probably.

That looks good Tess. I think I would run Fate/Stay Night instead of Fate/Zero. Considering all the powers in the game, yes, it would be hard to balance. Each pair has a neighborhood btw.

I think it's going to be a flavor only reveal

If you need help balancing you can also contact me. Also stay night would probably be better, the servants there are more balanced imo (f/z berserker is fucking absurd).

@Drezi: I meant this specific setup wouldn't work for different-alignment pairs. Some pairs should always be the same alignment though, for example the Berserker pair. No matter which HGW you'd base it on, Berserker should always lose voting ability, which makes him highly dependent on his Master to achieve anything. Whereas a pair like Saber or Archer could do fine with different alignments, since those are always capable of indepedent action.