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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)

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AnFace
i should add that i'm mainly a convert player and having them weigh the same is a huge advantage for a player like me

i'm trying to be as neutral as i can by giving arguments against something that would help me so people don't say "YOU ONLY WANT IT TO BE LIKE THIS SO YOU CAN HAVE A HIGHER RANK"

i don't care much about my personal rank but i don't like seeing people higher than they should be (me included)
Topic Starter
Tom94

AnFace wrote:

i should add that i'm mainly a convert player and having them weigh the same is a huge advantage for a player like me

i'm trying to be as neutral as i can by giving arguments against something that would help me so people don't say "YOU ONLY WANT IT TO BE LIKE THIS SO YOU CAN HAVE A HIGHER RANK"

i don't care much about my personal rank but i don't like seeing people higher than they should be (me included)
Judging from your scores that seems to be more of a problem regarding accuracy and OD being values a bit weirdly. I'll tune this and hope to improve the situation. :)
Luna
Okay, here are a few of my thoughts on the current system.
First off, yes, accuracy seems to be slightly overrated atm - but the much bigger problem lies in the as-of-yet mediocre difficulty calculation.
Just to prove that point I decided to quickly play three of the easiest maps from my top performance list to show how simple it is to beat them:



If you look at the time stamps, you can tell that these were all first try (well, you'll have to trust me on the first score). These are now #1, #3 and #5 in my overall top performance list. None of those scores have outstanding accuracy either (compared to my usual scores), so the huge pp gain must stem from the difficulty assesment.

For Against Gilgamesh I can at least somewhat understand why it's rated so highly, it has several comparatively long streams and two 1/6 burst sections.
Mythologia's End is more confusing since it consists almost entirely of basic patterns. The density is not amazingly high, neither is the BPM. It's not an "easy" map per se, but definitely not as hard as your algorithm makes it out to be.
Seikan Hikou is the most baffling of the bunch. I have absolutely no explanation why this has such a high pp yield. Being a HR DT score you might suspect that accuracy is actually the issue here, but this map was in my top 3 performances before the last update. Back then, accuracy was not overrated AND my accuracy on the map was (significantly) worse than it is now. So it's definitely some other factor... But the map is super basic, not a single long or tricky pattern. BPM and density are very reasonable as well. Oh, and this is currently my #1 performance by a huge margin of 19pp... Tom, could you maybe run this through your difficulty calculator and tell us which difficulty value is responsible so we can work on improving the algorithm?

Another example for weird difficulty behavior would be Kakuzetsu Thanatos.
This map has two Oni level Taiko diffs. qoot's diff is way harder in my opinion; the patterns are significantly more difficult and the rhythm is a lot more complex. It has a few less objects, but that doesn't outweigh the other difficulty aspects at all (it does in fact feel faster to me when playing, despite the apparently lower density. Maybe 714's diff has the notes spread out more evenly?). The algorithm however rates 714's diff 0.10 stars harder, which is quite a big margin in this new system. Now I'm wondering if that's just because of the slightly higher object count - in that case, the weightings for all difficulty values need to be reconsidered. Or does your algorithm actually rate 714's diff higher in pattern/rhythm complexity? In that case, we'd probably need to work on the specific algorithm.
Topic Starter
Tom94

Luna wrote:

Okay, here are a few of my thoughts on the current system.
First off, yes, accuracy seems to be slightly overrated atm - but the much bigger problem lies in the as-of-yet mediocre difficulty calculation.
Just to prove that point I decided to quickly play three of the easiest maps from my top performance list to show how simple it is to beat them:



If you look at the time stamps, you can tell that these were all first try (well, you'll have to trust me on the first score). These are now #1, #3 and #5 in my overall top performance list. None of those scores have outstanding accuracy either (compared to my usual scores), so the huge pp gain must stem from the difficulty assesment.

For Against Gilgamesh I can at least somewhat understand why it's rated so highly, it has several comparatively long streams and two 1/6 burst sections.
Mythologia's End is more confusing since it consists almost entirely of basic patterns. The density is not amazingly high, neither is the BPM. It's not an "easy" map per se, but definitely not as hard as your algorithm makes it out to be.
Seikan Hikou is the most baffling of the bunch. I have absolutely no explanation why this has such a high pp yield. Being a HR DT score you might suspect that accuracy is actually the issue here, but this map was in my top 3 performances before the last update. Back then, accuracy was not overrated AND my accuracy on the map was (significantly) worse than it is now. So it's definitely some other factor... But the map is super basic, not a single long or tricky pattern. BPM and density are very reasonable as well. Oh, and this is currently my #1 performance by a huge margin of 19pp... Tom, could you maybe run this through your difficulty calculator and tell us which difficulty value is responsible so we can work on improving the algorithm?

Another example for weird difficulty behavior would be Kakuzetsu Thanatos.
This map has two Oni level Taiko diffs. qoot's diff is way harder in my opinion; the patterns are significantly more difficult and the rhythm is a lot more complex. It has a few less objects, but that doesn't outweigh the other difficulty aspects at all (it does in fact feel faster to me when playing, despite the apparently lower density. Maybe 714's diff has the notes spread out more evenly?). The algorithm however rates 714's diff 0.10 stars harder, which is quite a big margin in this new system. Now I'm wondering if that's just because of the slightly higher object count - in that case, the weightings for all difficulty values need to be reconsidered. Or does your algorithm actually rate 714's diff higher in pattern/rhythm complexity? In that case, we'd probably need to work on the specific algorithm.
Smaller, more dense patterns should definitely be favored. Thank you a lot for this chunk of feedback, that's very good to work with. Unfortunately I'll have to devote some time for CtB for now, since they barely received attention after the initial implementation.
I'll definitely deliver a follow-up to this, and feel free to keep giving feedback / poke me in that time. I'm reading everything and I'm more than happy to see posts like this one.
TKS
U2 Akiyama - Mystic Oriental Love Consultation

#1 DT + HD, 100 x12


#5 DT, 100 x8


#6 DT, 100 x13


the current system is unfair in excess. i guess, i can get a DTSS record on this map but i have a DTHD record already, so if i want a more PP, i must use the DTHD ;_; if you are under consideration on the issue already, im sorry for the inconvenience :(
by the PP of BP was visualized, i hope that the feedback is increased.
roufou
pretty sure hd is work in progress and gives like nothing atm
Yuzeyun

TKSalt wrote:

U2 Akiyama - Mystic Oriental Love Consultation

#1 DT + HD, 100 x12


#5 DT, 100 x8


#6 DT, 100 x13


the current system is unfair in excess. i guess, i can get a DTSS record on this map but i have a DTHD record already, so if i want a more PP, i must use the DTHD ;_; if you are under consideration on the issue already, im sorry for the inconvenience :(
by the PP of BP was visualized, i hope that the feedback is increased.
RevenG - Sakura

Xay - 12× 100 (DT):


Me - 11× 100 (DTHD):


seiichiz - 13× 100 (DT):


I agree with TKS on this one especially on this map as its timing is erratic, wrong at parts and the OD is high as it's 8.

Edit :
Never Let Me Down Again - Insane - HDFL - 97.54% - 671 combo (OD7)


is rated lower than

Gym Leader Battle - Normal - HRFL - 100% - 111 combo (OD5)


I know there's the 97.54% vs 100% factor, but truly NLMDA is much much harder than GLB due to all parameters given (H-insane vs. N-normal, 671 vs 111 combo).
XK2238

agu wrote:

pretty sure hd is work in progress and gives like nothing atm
:s
Tanaka
Seems like the standard converts still give more pp than taiko maps.
Noticed this : http://puu.sh/7DIdO.png
Please fix.
Taiko maps should weight much more than standard converts
WemadeFOX-solo
can someone explain to me what "weighted" and "100pp" means? i don't fully understand
DestinySonata

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

can someone explain to me what "weighted" and "100pp" means? i don't fully understand
As the number of maps in your Best Performance increase, each map cannot give their normal pp (100% weighted) or else you can just farm pp.
The ones at the top will be your best performance at the hardest(?) maps. The map gives pp according to its difficulty and how well you did in the map.

100% weighted means that it takes 100% of the pp the map gives.
100% weighted 100pp will give 100pp.
95% weighted 100pp will give 95pp.
90% weighted 100pp will give 90pp.
And so on.
WemadeFOX-solo
so if a performance says 50% weighted means i could get the double amount of pp if i do a better performance and get 100% weighted?
Yuzeyun

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

so if a performance says 50% weighted means i could get the double amount of pp if i do a better performance and get 100% weighted?
You get the remaining 50%
Dolphin

Tanaka wrote:

Seems like the standard converts still give more pp than taiko maps.
Noticed this : http://puu.sh/7DIdO.png
Please fix.
Taiko maps should weight much more than standard converts
AnFace

Dolphin wrote:

Tanaka wrote:

Seems like the standard converts still give more pp than taiko maps.
Noticed this : http://puu.sh/7DIdO.png
Please fix.
Taiko maps should weight much more than standard converts
just a guess but those taikos being muzukashii might have something to do with it
XK2238

AnFace wrote:

just a guess but those taikos being muzukashii might have something to do with it
this. Some [Hyper]s are equal (or only slightly different) than general [Oni]s.
WemadeFOX-solo
i think hypers are a little bit more repetitive than oni but yeah, someone are very similar
Topic Starter
Tom94

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

so if a performance says 50% weighted means i could get the double amount of pp if i do a better performance and get 100% weighted?
Yeah, but all the other performances that are then below your better performance will have a lower weight, so it won't make _that_ big of a difference. It also is questionable whether it'd even be possible to beat your best-ever performance with that particular map.
DestinySonata
I'm wondering how much combo, misses and score have an affect on the pp (do they even have an effect on it?) Full combo should warrant something at least.

My top play has -0.23% acc compared to the one below it, and it's FC as well, but I lost 1pp. Does accuracy count that much?
Dolphin
imo combo is pretty irrelevant. It's just a number that tells you how many objects you're able to hit without missing. Sure thats somewhat impressive, but if you look at most other rhythm games, combo is just a number, they focus more on accuracy.

Talking about games like the BEMANI series mostly. On those games, they don't even have combo multipliers, unlike osu!
You can get full combo but have godawful accuracy or you can get a few misses and have amazing accuracy, and in this case, I feel the latter is the more impressive. It's a rhythm game after all, isn't accuracy and timing what we should focus the most on?

But for reals that image you posted and losing 1pp is kinda bullshit too lol
Yuzeyun

Dolphin wrote:

imo combo is pretty irrelevant. It's just a number that tells you how many objects you're able to hit without missing. Sure thats somewhat impressive, but if you look at most other rhythm games, combo is just a number, they focus more on accuracy.
This. Reason why, our match against Japan says it all. We've had a lot of FCs but due to much lower accuracy, they could catch up even by not having high combo. It's said that you can lose about 44,000 points by combobreaking.
DestinySonata
I understand now, thanks for the clarification!
Topic Starter
Tom94
Regarding the latest accuracy changes: Yes, I am aware, that "spam"-scores are values higher again, which I hope to address in some difficulty algorithm changes in the near future.
Yuzeyun
Now I find that accuracy has little to no value towards pp, my top performance being a 97.95% - the map isn't hard in patterns at all.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/130115?m=1 => Gives me 264pp, despite it being OD10 and acc being extremely high. The BPM after getting to DT is lower than 190.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/97949?m=1 => 99.90 on first try, nomod, 207bpm, 272pp
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/89355?m=1 => Low OD, easy map, 282pp. BPM after speedchange is 195.

The best thing is to weigh a bit more accuracy, because what makes a player A better than player B isn't only speed, it's a way to stay consistent with the speed - translated by accuracy difference between two scores. I didn't perform well on Mystic Oriental compared to most scores (it's one of the worst FC DT S of the rankings) but did pretty well on Shuriken or Si te vas - which are both HRDTs.

There's also the HD weighing problem, which I'd like to see how much changes they would give.
XK2238

_Gezo_ wrote:

There's also the HD weighing problem, which I'd like to see how much changes they would give.
yes pls ;w;
WemadeFOX-solo
now acc is underrated imo, i would just reward a little bit more acc
Juuryoushin

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

now acc is underrated imo, i would just reward a little bit more acc






lolnopes
XK2238
kinda agree with the accuracy thing; Remote Control is by far my most accurate HDT (99.52%) and yet it's still #9. Night of Fire is easier than that, if you ask me; it's 98.88% HDT, yet it's weighted a lot more.

Or is it because SD got its own weight too? Also, I think Distorted Lovesong and Because Maybe! should swap places, as the latter is the same speed, but 10 minutes lengthier. Acc difference is .03% (99.27 and 99.24, respectively), but still. :b



also lol Carnival at #1
Yuzeyun

Didou wrote:

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

now acc is underrated imo, i would just reward a little bit more acc






lolnopes
Well, that case should be treated as well. I can get 10 misses and no 100, I'll get more accuracy than a guy who FCs the same map with 21x 100 - The latter has performed better. It makes no sense to have more performance when not getting FC !
Topic Starter
Tom94

_Gezo_ wrote:

Well, that case should be treated as well. I can get 10 misses and no 100, I'll get more accuracy than a guy who FCs the same map with 21x 100 - The latter has performed better. It makes no sense to have more performance when not getting FC !
You wouldn't get the same pp. You'd get less.
The only reason the above 2 scores are that close is, because 1500 combo vs 1600 combo is not such a big difference and, because a difference between 97.8% vs 98.6% is not close at all.
abrian

Tom94 wrote:

_Gezo_ wrote:

Well, that case should be treated as well. I can get 10 misses and no 100, I'll get more accuracy than a guy who FCs the same map with 21x 100 - The latter has performed better. It makes no sense to have more performance when not getting FC !
You wouldn't get the same pp. You'd get less.
The only reason the above 2 scores are that close is, because 1500 combo vs 1600 combo is not such a big difference and, because a difference between 97.8% vs 98.6% is not close at all.
Agree with Tom, and tbh the acc weighing is about just right. (maybe slightly low)
Only problem now I think is the weighing of HD mod.
Should be interesting when it comes out...
WemadeFOX-solo

_Gezo_ wrote:

Well, that case should be treated as well. I can get 10 misses and no 100, I'll get more accuracy than a guy who FCs the same map with 21x 100 - The latter has performed better. It makes no sense to have more performance when not getting FC !
^ this, is frustrating when u do a map with misses and 98.50 acc and then fc the map with 98.00 acc and you lose pp, feels so wrong
Yuzeyun

abrian159 wrote:

Agree with Tom, and tbh the acc weighing is about just right. (maybe slightly low)
Only problem now I think is the weighing of HD mod.
Should be interesting when it comes out...
well I can't say this is wrong, it's better as it doesn't overrate acc, but now it is weighed a bit wrong due to missing barely taken into account (see didou's screen, 7pp difference despite having more acc yet misses)

Acc weighting doesn't depend on OD at all. This is my feeling - see 2nd previous post where I show that my OD4 HRDT gets above tons of OD5/6/7+ HRDT
OnosakiHito

abrian159 wrote:

Only problem now I think is the weighing of HD mod.
Should be interesting when it comes out...
He He He He He.... pay-time *rubs hands*
[Rdyjin]
At first glance, I think I like the new weighting for accuracy a lot more. I'm currently ranked around the mid-high 2,000s, and the change in my "top performance" actually gives me a little bit of hope of improving my rank at a more "reasonable" pace, so to speak.





Ever since the reintroduction of Taiko pp, my Kare Kano Kanon score was ranked rather adamantly #1 in Top Performance, being the best performance I have ever had when specifically considering accuracy:



But all of those A ranks are floating around high 96% accuracies, and most of those songs feature much more complex or faster-paced gameplay (Sa'eed, for example, containing my highest Taiko-diff combo to date, being 1,202). Before, it felt a little bad because all of the emphasis did seem to be on getting top-tier accuracy, which at my skill level isn't so consistent. Feels a lot better to see something more recent at #1 rather than something incidental from 2 months ago.
abrian

_Gezo_ wrote:

Acc weighting doesn't depend on OD at all. This is my feeling - see 2nd previous post where I show that my OD4 HRDT gets above tons of OD5/6/7+ HRDT
Yes
Luna
I need some help understanding how pp calculation works because I'm really confused right now.
For an example, I'll use two maps from my top performance list and compare them:
DragonForce - Through The Fire And Flames [Taiko] vs Demetori - Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End [mekadon's Taiko]
Mods used: HR = HR (no difference)
Star Rating: 3.56 > 3.31 (TTFAF wins)
Accuracy: 99.57% ~ 98.35% (should probably be a win for TTFAF, or be about even at worst; both accuracies are mediocre, but it's OD7 vs OD10)
Misses: 0 < 5 (TTFAF wins)
Combo: 3121 (FC) > 747 (out of 2121) (TTFAF wins)
BPM (in case high SV gives bonuses with HR): 200 > 178 (TTFAF wins)
pp Value: 282 < 296 (Emotional Skyscraper inexplicably wins)

I got the Emotional Skyscraper score in multiplayer almost half a year ago, it's terrible and should not be my #5 performance. It's not a hard map and according to these stats it should give way less pp than TTFAF. Yet somehow it doesn't.
What am I missing?
Topic Starter
Tom94

Luna wrote:

I need some help understanding how pp calculation works because I'm really confused right now.
For an example, I'll use two maps from my top performance list and compare them:
DragonForce - Through The Fire And Flames [Taiko] vs Demetori - Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End [mekadon's Taiko]
Mods used: HR = HR (no difference)
Star Rating: 3.56 > 3.31 (TTFAF wins)
Accuracy: 99.57% ~ 98.35% (should probably be a win for TTFAF, or be about even at worst; both accuracies are mediocre, but it's OD7 vs OD10)
Misses: 0 < 5 (TTFAF wins)
Combo: 3121 (FC) > 747 (out of 2121) (TTFAF wins)
BPM (in case high SV gives bonuses with HR): 200 > 178 (TTFAF wins)
pp Value: 282 < 296 (Emotional Skyscraper inexplicably wins)

I got the Emotional Skyscraper score in multiplayer almost half a year ago, it's terrible and should not be my #5 performance. It's not a hard map and according to these stats it should give way less pp than TTFAF. Yet somehow it doesn't.
What am I missing?
Seems like the recent accuracy update got them closer (294 vs 292). The reason really is the OD. Getting 98.35% at OD10 is considered better than 99.57% at OD7 (by about 2 accuracy pp, 125 vs 145 to be exact). That means that the rest of the scores also get a difference of ~20 pp in the other direction, making up for that.

Should misses / combo breaks be penalized even more? It should be noted, that you only had 5 misses, so they didn't pull the pp of emotional skyscraper down by much.
Luna
Oh, my top performance list had apparently not updated fully until just now, it was different just a few hours ago (with the stats I posted).
But it still feels weird that a score on a 3.56 diff map gets beaten so easily by a shitty non-FC score on a 3.31 diff map.
And 98.35 OD10 isn't even good, it should definitely not give 20 additional pp over the TTFAF accuracy.

So yes, I think misses should be penalized a bit more, map difficulty should probably be weighted higher (although the algorithm still needs a lot of work) and the accuracy weighting still makes little sense to me.
Yuzeyun

Tom94 wrote:

Should misses / combo breaks be penalized even more? It should be noted, that you only had 5 misses, so they didn't pull the pp of emotional skyscraper down by much.
This is what I wanted to tell with Didou vs Nashmun case, getting very few misses can still give you an enormous reward (even by missing halfway through the map)
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