BasicallyWemadeFOX-solo wrote:
so the new system is, 98+acc or forget about your pp no matter what difficulty are u playing
?WemadeFOX-solo wrote:
talking about regular maps, no that retarded 1/16 or 1/8 streams which are almost impossible to do even with HT
Is it "free?"XK2238 wrote:
tl;dr: it's obviously readable, you just need some time to get used to it.
You don't play taiko, do you? =)RaneFire wrote:
Is it "free?"XK2238 wrote:
tl;dr: it's obviously readable, you just need some time to get used to it.
You don't play standard that much, so maybe you don't know what I mean by "free," because that's where I draw the comparison from. It seems to me that the 19x100 vs 44x100 (-12pp) is something that was borrowed directly from standard, because that's pretty much the same scale of effect it has there, where it's bonus to accuracy is negligible (so getting worse accuracy with HD will always be worse, discounting aim)... because literally... its effect on accuracy is actually negligible.
Do you agree with this for taiko?
If so, why are there so few HD scores? What does HD actually make harder, if anything?
So if I add a mod to make it more difficult, I'm expected to get the same accuracy or better than with the previous 1 mod or no mods to get pp :c?silmarilen wrote:
you went from 19x 100 to 44x 100, there is no way ever that the bonus from hd can outweigh that.
same with the DT score, you went from 11x 100 to 18x 100.
protip: 19x 100 -> 44x 100 is not a slight decrease, it is a huge one.
Apparently not. I just hit some funny buttons now and then.EBAWER123 wrote:
You don't play taiko, do you? =)
*sobs quietly in a corner*RaneFire wrote:
There are not a lot of good HD taiko players from what I can tell
Just pointing something. It could be simply a matter of score, since HR is more rewarding than HD if you have at least one spinner in the whole map.Dolphin wrote:
You usually see HR scores on maps below ~190 BPM because its easier to read and play with for most people, whilst on maps with higher BPM (like 190+) you'll start seeing more HD scores, since its rather difficult to read such a high BPM/SV with HR.
It really starts to abruptly change once you hit 220+. Past 230, they barely exist. Reach 240, only a few select can even do it. 250, you're sure that there are at most 2. Reach 280, there are none. At 200 or 210 you see some at non-negligible amounts. But it starts to really break past 220. 190 if SV is higher.Dolphin wrote:
You usually see HR scores on maps below ~190 BPM because its easier to read and play with for most people, whilst on maps with higher BPM (like 190+) you'll start seeing more HD scores, since its rather difficult to read such a high BPM/SV with HR.
but if i can't do it then they must be cheating_Gezo_ wrote:
Whoever legitimately thinks that HD and DS are correlated need their head checked. The area is pretty large to read on, so people can play it correctly.
Taiko players so sensitive. I didn't make any accusations, I was just using it as an example in my "free points" analogy. Maybe I shouldn't have said that, but I didn't know how else to put it, or what example I could have used instead. I did not imply that people were legitimately using DS._Gezo_ wrote:
Whoever legitimately thinks that HD and DS are correlated need their head checked. The area is pretty large to read on, so people can play it correctly.
I did. Thanks for replies everyone.Dolphin wrote:
Not that any of this matters, just in case you wanted to know.
js, I played HD more than you can think out of my Std playcount, and yes, it's "free" in std, but why did you even compare these 2 clearly contrast game modes in such terms from the first place anyways?RaneFire wrote:
Is it "free?"XK2238 wrote:
tl;dr: it's obviously readable, you just need some time to get used to it.
You don't play standard that much, so maybe you don't know what I mean by "free," because that's where I draw the comparison from. It seems to me that the 19x100 vs 44x100 (-12pp) is something that was borrowed directly from standard, because that's pretty much the same scale of effect it has there, where it's bonus to accuracy is negligible (so getting worse accuracy with HD will always be worse, discounting aim)... because literally... its effect on accuracy is actually negligible.
Do you agree with this for taiko?
If so, why are there so few HD scores? What does HD actually make harder, if anything?
And this, people, is why I hate generalizations.RaneFire wrote:
Taiko players so sensitive. I didn't make any accusations, I was just using it as an example in my "free points" analogy. Maybe I shouldn't have said that, but I didn't know how else to put it, or what example I could have used instead. I did not imply that people were legitimately using DS._Gezo_ wrote:
Whoever legitimately thinks that HD and DS are correlated need their head checked. The area is pretty large to read on, so people can play it correctly.
I don't mean to be impatient or rush anything, but two (2) weekends have passed since this was posted and absolutely nothing has been changed.Tom94 wrote:
I'll address it this weekend. While it's valid for some players to have such plays in their best performance list (if they're not good at other things), it shouldnt be able to give so much pp in general.
You're completely right, I apologize for missing this deadline. I had experimented with these things and had a modified version running locally and I wonder how it slipped getting pushed to the servers. Sorry again. :/Luna wrote:
I don't mean to be impatient or rush anything, but two (2) weekends have passed since this was posted and absolutely nothing has been changed.Tom94 wrote:
I'll address it this weekend. While it's valid for some players to have such plays in their best performance list (if they're not good at other things), it shouldnt be able to give so much pp in general.
I'd like to give further feedback on the system, but I want to wait until after the announced update at least. Changing too many things at a time would only make it harder to pinpoint why things improved/went downhill.
Btw, by now eoe has farmed his way to #1 through spam maps. Yes, he is a very good player. But he does not deserve #1, and especially not because of those maps.
That doesn't make any sense at all, because anyone could map a taiko-specific map which is the exact same as a converted standard map which would still get weighted higher. That's stupidly inconsistent.Luna wrote:
If you are going to drop the speed weighting so heavily that spam maps become fairly weighted, truly difficult speed maps would likely be underrated.
I still prefer just cutting the pp gain from converted maps by a decent margin, as was requested initially.
It doesn't matter whether it gets ranked or not. Ranking is a human process that no algorithm can grasp. If the algorithm can't even get basic logical constraints done, how do you expect it to deal with unforseen future things?Luna wrote:
They could make a map that's exactly the same, but it wouldn't get ranked, thus not counting towards pp.
The amount of converted maps that are actually in a rankable state is probably in the single digits or something.
And about the spam maps: We mentioned this before, but people use macros to effectively use 4 keys per color and stuff like that. Kinda defeats the purpose of having ridiculously high BPM streams.
First of all the standard algorithm works well even for retarded maps. Regarding multi-monitor or certain forms of macro usage: How would you go with proving that these are being used?Luna wrote:
If ranked status does not matter at all, then why isn't the pp system for standard optimized for crazy 2B maps with circles during sliders and spinners, offscreen sliders etc?
And the macro/dual-keyboard users are just the same as dual screen HDFL players. Even if everybody knows it, peppy doesn't seem to care, so nothing is ever going to happen to them.
I don't know how you reach that conclusion. I said that I won't give autoconverts an arbitrary penalty, because it doesn't make sense, not that mashing scores should be considered that much.Nashmun wrote:
But, is a muzu/easy-oni level player who can mash his keyboard better than a 10*+ oni player who can't mash keyboard ? I don't think so. Spamming mono color "stream" (These are not stream, ou don't need to do regular 220 BPM you just need to mash the fastest you can) isn't a taiko-related skill. It seems like you think otherwise and whatever we can say to you won't change your mind.
I can't disagree with anything you said. My point still stands, that the algorithm itself needs to be fixed if it overrates some cases of autoconverts instead of just dumping all autoconverts into the trash bin by giving them an arbitrary penalty. That also improves the algorithm's accuracy regarding Taiko-specific maps since it'd be more specialized for those to begin with.Xay wrote:
In order to contemplate on why monotonous 1/8 "dumps" should not gain additional weight in pp, we have to investigate different types of skill in Taiko. I doubt that anybody would disagree with me that there are the general Speed, as in fingerspeed, and Reading Speed skills.
Dependant on the player who is looking at X skilled player, it obviously proves to be entirely subjective whether "fingerspeed" should be considered as a skill relying on control, i.e. in order to DT Taiko Onis, or simply the mere speed of your fingers mashing on one and the same pattern for 2 minutes, which is actually called "Vibrating". It as an undoubtable fact that both require an insane amount of Stamina, which supposedly accentuates those players possessing it on high levels - implying we are talking about legit players and not those who use two keyboards/8 keys or a macro.
Reading Speed, however, does not correlate with Speed so long as you do not posses the stamina to play high BPM stuff. Now can that skill still be applied to autoconverted maps even without stamina? Very much so. If you have good Reading Speed and are able to do basic Taiko patterns, you unwillingly will be able to do good on a great amount of autoconverts, which might or might not be rather harsh, i.e. difficult/insane rated in Standard. Even if you take those maps, which may be extremely confusing due to an improbable high amount of BPM changes (or BPM "traps" as I'd like to call them) into consideration, you are still going to be able to do good on them so long as you are willing to memorize the most crucial parts.
The crucial question is: In how much does the ability to compete with top-noch players as a lower ranked player on autoconverted maps correlate with the ability to do well on Taiko Onis?
Considering the amount of extremely obnoxiously autoconverted maps is obviously much greater than the amount of Taiko Maps, I do think that Taiko Onis in general should be the base for accurate skill judges, and not maps like Atama No Taisou, Mad Machine or all the val0108 maps. I am sure that there are players like me, who are simply not willing to play autoconverted maps, as they simply do not apply as something considerably fun-to-play in my (or their) eyes. They either consist of afore mentioned BPM "traps", monotonous and boring patterns, or 1/8 dump stream patterns that might make perfect sense in Standard, but never in Taiko. There are only so few that I can actually think of, of which some were actually used in the Taiko World Cup, that can get close to what I consider a fun autoconvert. But those are probably exceptions because the mappers of precisely these maps have or had their fingers on Taiko as well.
I would like to omit further text and see what you have to say, but my opinion towards "being able to play autoconverted maps should not be considered a general Taikoskill" will not change. It might be some sort of "specialisation", but it is not and should not be enough to get a player of this sort considerably ranked higher than those who play with what everybody would consider "true" skill.
My 2 cents
whosthebox and Midnaait are still top 40 based almost exclusively on spam scores.Tom94 wrote:
I barely see any other mashing scores (talking about the ones with lower accuracy and combo!) on anyone's best performance lists anymore.
i think it's a lot safer if converts get a small penalty since i think a lot of the difficulty of them comes from things like big notes and sv changes and sliders that i don't think the algorithm deals with. plus most taiko players just stick to taiko maps so it would only affect a small amount of peopleTom94 wrote:
I can't disagree with anything you said. My point still stands, that the algorithm itself needs to be fixed if it overrates some cases of autoconverts instead of just dumping all autoconverts into the trash bin by giving them an arbitrary penalty. That also improves the algorithm's accuracy regarding Taiko-specific maps since it'd be more specialized for those to begin with.Xay wrote:
In order to contemplate on why monotonous 1/8 "dumps" should not gain additional weight in pp, we have to investigate different types of skill in Taiko. I doubt that anybody would disagree with me that there are the general Speed, as in fingerspeed, and Reading Speed skills.
Dependant on the player who is looking at X skilled player, it obviously proves to be entirely subjective whether "fingerspeed" should be considered as a skill relying on control, i.e. in order to DT Taiko Onis, or simply the mere speed of your fingers mashing on one and the same pattern for 2 minutes, which is actually called "Vibrating". It as an undoubtable fact that both require an insane amount of Stamina, which supposedly accentuates those players possessing it on high levels - implying we are talking about legit players and not those who use two keyboards/8 keys or a macro.
Reading Speed, however, does not correlate with Speed so long as you do not posses the stamina to play high BPM stuff. Now can that skill still be applied to autoconverted maps even without stamina? Very much so. If you have good Reading Speed and are able to do basic Taiko patterns, you unwillingly will be able to do good on a great amount of autoconverts, which might or might not be rather harsh, i.e. difficult/insane rated in Standard. Even if you take those maps, which may be extremely confusing due to an improbable high amount of BPM changes (or BPM "traps" as I'd like to call them) into consideration, you are still going to be able to do good on them so long as you are willing to memorize the most crucial parts.
The crucial question is: In how much does the ability to compete with top-noch players as a lower ranked player on autoconverted maps correlate with the ability to do well on Taiko Onis?
Considering the amount of extremely obnoxiously autoconverted maps is obviously much greater than the amount of Taiko Maps, I do think that Taiko Onis in general should be the base for accurate skill judges, and not maps like Atama No Taisou, Mad Machine or all the val0108 maps. I am sure that there are players like me, who are simply not willing to play autoconverted maps, as they simply do not apply as something considerably fun-to-play in my (or their) eyes. They either consist of afore mentioned BPM "traps", monotonous and boring patterns, or 1/8 dump stream patterns that might make perfect sense in Standard, but never in Taiko. There are only so few that I can actually think of, of which some were actually used in the Taiko World Cup, that can get close to what I consider a fun autoconvert. But those are probably exceptions because the mappers of precisely these maps have or had their fingers on Taiko as well.
I would like to omit further text and see what you have to say, but my opinion towards "being able to play autoconverted maps should not be considered a general Taikoskill" will not change. It might be some sort of "specialisation", but it is not and should not be enough to get a player of this sort considerably ranked higher than those who play with what everybody would consider "true" skill.
My 2 cents
The fact that the algorithm doesn't give any additional difficulty for SV changes and big notes so far already indirectly penalizes maps which heavily include them (like you said many autoconverts).AnFace wrote:
i think it's a lot safer if converts get a small penalty since i think a lot of the difficulty of them comes from things like big notes and sv changes and sliders that i don't think the algorithm deals with. plus most taiko players just stick to taiko maps so it would only affect a small amount of people
that said why the hell is my rank so high now
I MEAN CONVERTS SHOULD STILL BE INCLUDED BUT MAYBE AT A SMALLER AMOUNT THEY ARE STILL MAPS EVEN IF THEY AREN'T SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR TAIKO
Judging from your scores that seems to be more of a problem regarding accuracy and OD being values a bit weirdly. I'll tune this and hope to improve the situation.AnFace wrote:
i should add that i'm mainly a convert player and having them weigh the same is a huge advantage for a player like me
i'm trying to be as neutral as i can by giving arguments against something that would help me so people don't say "YOU ONLY WANT IT TO BE LIKE THIS SO YOU CAN HAVE A HIGHER RANK"
i don't care much about my personal rank but i don't like seeing people higher than they should be (me included)