depends on what you call oni and normal

@Tom why do these 2 scores are valued equally 1st have better score, better acc and less misses 2 vs 15 yet no pp increase:?



Map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/58061&m=1

Is it because the difference is so little?

I earned 1 pp with that DT play and immediately lost it after that DTHR play just because of accuracy, altough the DTHR play is a lot harder to achieve. I could 99 DT this map anytime but it's hard to keep a consistent 96+ with DTHR. The pp system as it is now favors way too much DT. If you want pp, then don't bother HR/HD or DT + mod because you will most likely earn less pp than with DT only because your accuracy will be lower. IMO that's something that should be fixed.

so the new system is, 98+acc or forget about your pp no matter what difficulty are u playing

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

so the new system is, 98+acc or forget about your pp no matter what difficulty are u playing

Basically

Not rly there are some garbage records with C and B in my top ranks, so u can have bad acc as long as the map is some kind of hard

talking about regular maps, no that retarded 1/16 or 1/8 streams which are almost impossible to do even with HT

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

talking about regular maps, no that retarded 1/16 or 1/8 streams which are almost impossible to do even with HT

?

So how come I had 19 100's on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/147656&m=1
Then I did it with HD which was hard as F***, and lost like 12 pp? I had pretty good accuracy too... 44 100's --> 98.45% accuracy
Also I DT a song, 11 100's +3 pp cool... DTHD 18 100's -3pp...

What's going on? Am I just better off getting high accuracy with no mods than slightly lower accuracy with 1 mod?

you went from 19x 100 to 44x 100, there is no way ever that the bonus from hd can outweigh that.
same with the DT score, you went from 11x 100 to 18x 100.

protip: 19x 100 -> 44x 100 is not a slight decrease, it is a huge one.

Is HD even weighted? Let alone correctly.

How complete is the algorithm? I know it's still WIP, but can you at least clear up some values so people don't get the wrong idea.

HD is different to standard. As opposed to requiring aim, taiko does not. You also have to differentiate between colours and big notes in less time, at the same time. With no aim component, how do you weight the difficulty of reading and its effects on accuracy?

There are not a lot of good HD taiko players from what I can tell, whereas nearly all scoreboards in osu!standard are filled with HD scores, making it important to learn HD. As a result, it's often referred to as "free points." Learning HD is not a requirement in taiko though, probably for the reason that it is genuinely difficult. It's definitely not "free" unless you are using double-screen.

>HD
>DS

nnnnnope. It's definitely readable (I mean, what is that area for?), but it's the default skin (because people who don't play taiko as the primary tend to not have custom Taiko skin files, imo) which bends a heck lot of perspectives about Taiko. I do know that there are some who can't HD Taiko even without the default skin, but DSing HD is just obviously dumb.

tl;dr: it's obviously readable, you just need some time to get used to it.

XK2238 wrote:

tl;dr: it's obviously readable, you just need some time to get used to it.

Is it "free?"

You don't play standard that much, so maybe you don't know what I mean by "free," because that's where I draw the comparison from. It seems to me that the 19x100 vs 44x100 (-12pp) is something that was borrowed directly from standard, because that's pretty much the same scale of effect it has there, where it's bonus to accuracy is negligible (so getting worse accuracy with HD will always be worse, discounting aim)... because literally... its effect on accuracy is actually negligible.

Do you agree with this for taiko?

If so, why are there so few HD scores? What does HD actually make harder, if anything?

RaneFire wrote:

XK2238 wrote:

tl;dr: it's obviously readable, you just need some time to get used to it.

Is it "free?"

You don't play standard that much, so maybe you don't know what I mean by "free," because that's where I draw the comparison from. It seems to me that the 19x100 vs 44x100 (-12pp) is something that was borrowed directly from standard, because that's pretty much the same scale of effect it has there, where it's bonus to accuracy is negligible (so getting worse accuracy with HD will always be worse, discounting aim)... because literally... its effect on accuracy is actually negligible.

Do you agree with this for taiko?

If so, why are there so few HD scores? What does HD actually make harder, if anything?

You don't play taiko, do you? =)

silmarilen wrote:

you went from 19x 100 to 44x 100, there is no way ever that the bonus from hd can outweigh that.
same with the DT score, you went from 11x 100 to 18x 100.

protip: 19x 100 -> 44x 100 is not a slight decrease, it is a huge one.

So if I add a mod to make it more difficult, I'm expected to get the same accuracy or better than with the previous 1 mod or no mods to get pp :c?
I cannot do that. Adding HD to a song that is fast is very difficult and you have to play it over and over, so I'd expect at least 1 pp maybe u.u not a subtraction of 12 D:
Sure 19x 100 to 44x 100 is a big difference but 98.45 for 44 100s with HD is good for Cruel clocks in my opinion. Also, 11x 100 to 18x 100 is not a big difference. DT 11x 100 is better than DTHD 18x 100 I guess.

EBAWER123 wrote:

You don't play taiko, do you? =)

Apparently not. I just hit some funny buttons now and then.

If you're fine with the system as is, then please... don't enlighten me. This is not for my sake anyway, although it is for my curiosity, and maybe others'. I ask the question from a third-person perspective because I do not play taiko at the level which counts for considering mod difficulty weightings. Remember, Tom also doesn't play taiko. He also needs your input, so you better keep posting if you want improvements, because there's no way he's going to be able to deduce them all by himself.

And pretty much as SeasonS said... HD is a difficulty increase. The question is to where it should apply. If you don't want to answer that, and just dodge the question, then what good is debating the ranking system.

Elitism does not help anyone.

In taiko, HD is pretty hard to judge difficulty-wise. It mostly depends on how the notes are scrolling. A song where the notes scroll by really fast is going to be way harder with HD, where as using HD on a song like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/13451 doesn't make it too much harder. Then, you have things like extremely slow SVs making HD harder and songs where the SV changes a lot. Also, long, complicated streams ( http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24634 ) make HD way harder as well. There's probably some other factors, but that's all I can think of right now. As a whole, I wouldn't say HD is worth more than HR, but HD does make a notable increase in difficulty.

RaneFire wrote:

There are not a lot of good HD taiko players from what I can tell

*sobs quietly in a corner*

I personally find HD to be easier than HR. (not by much really) Mostly because I feel I can play a larger asset of maps well with it, opposed to HR where I can only play below 180 BPM (on SV 1.40), and I usually screw up accuracy a lot on OD6+HR. (For some reason I have the same accuracy on OD5 with or without lol)

But there are plenty of good HD taiko players imo, but most players find HR to be easier (for some reason)
A lot of the Japanese players are good with HD, for instance.
You usually see HR scores on maps below ~190 BPM because its easier to read and play with for most people, whilst on maps with higher BPM (like 190+) you'll start seeing more HD scores, since its rather difficult to read such a high BPM/SV with HR.

Not that any of this matters, just in case you wanted to know.

Dolphin wrote:

You usually see HR scores on maps below ~190 BPM because its easier to read and play with for most people, whilst on maps with higher BPM (like 190+) you'll start seeing more HD scores, since its rather difficult to read such a high BPM/SV with HR.

Just pointing something. It could be simply a matter of score, since HR is more rewarding than HD if you have at least one spinner in the whole map.

Dolphin wrote:

You usually see HR scores on maps below ~190 BPM because its easier to read and play with for most people, whilst on maps with higher BPM (like 190+) you'll start seeing more HD scores, since its rather difficult to read such a high BPM/SV with HR.

It really starts to abruptly change once you hit 220+. Past 230, they barely exist. Reach 240, only a few select can even do it. 250, you're sure that there are at most 2. Reach 280, there are none. At 200 or 210 you see some at non-negligible amounts. But it starts to really break past 220. 190 if SV is higher.

For HD, you can pretty much expect scores on a range from 120-130 to 300-320 BPM (I can read up to 300-ish with no problem despite my unfamiliarity with said mod) -- anything below is known to be hell difficult even by the HD players themselves - point proven in TWC where barely any HD map was picked.

Whoever legitimately thinks that HD and DS are correlated need their head checked. The area is pretty large to read on, so people can play it correctly.

_Gezo_ wrote:

Whoever legitimately thinks that HD and DS are correlated need their head checked. The area is pretty large to read on, so people can play it correctly.

but if i can't do it then they must be cheating

_Gezo_ wrote:

Whoever legitimately thinks that HD and DS are correlated need their head checked. The area is pretty large to read on, so people can play it correctly.

Taiko players so sensitive. I didn't make any accusations, I was just using it as an example in my "free points" analogy. Maybe I shouldn't have said that, but I didn't know how else to put it, or what example I could have used instead. I did not imply that people were legitimately using DS.

Dolphin wrote:

Not that any of this matters, just in case you wanted to know.

I did. Thanks for replies everyone.

Must not assume that, because this is an old game mode, what's obvious to you is obvious to everyone.

RaneFire wrote:

XK2238 wrote:

tl;dr: it's obviously readable, you just need some time to get used to it.

Is it "free?"

You don't play standard that much, so maybe you don't know what I mean by "free," because that's where I draw the comparison from. It seems to me that the 19x100 vs 44x100 (-12pp) is something that was borrowed directly from standard, because that's pretty much the same scale of effect it has there, where it's bonus to accuracy is negligible (so getting worse accuracy with HD will always be worse, discounting aim)... because literally... its effect on accuracy is actually negligible.

Do you agree with this for taiko?

If so, why are there so few HD scores? What does HD actually make harder, if anything?

js, I played HD more than you can think out of my Std playcount, and yes, it's "free" in std, but why did you even compare these 2 clearly contrast game modes in such terms from the first place anyways?
-------------
Difficulty-wise:
1. HD in slow SV maps adds (a lot) more challenge (the slower, the harder), while HR kills the challenge itself.
2. HD in very fast SV maps also adds about the same amount of challenge as above (the faster, the harder), unlike Std which is totally unaffected by SV, only AR (AR8/9 HD is very common anyways, even I can read it). As for HR, people won't even think about playing such maps with it. The case is different for Taiko-specific maps, where the SV is almost always the same multiplier, making only the BPM count.
3. Talk about long, complex streams... HD will surely give you a hard time reading such streams, while HR simply eases it off (although depending on the BPM, as said in No. 2).
4. Different beat snaps in one pattern/stream? Pretty similar as above.

About accuracy, it's pretty much NOT that negligible in Taiko, whose timing window is around half as narrow than Std, from what I've seen. On top of that, I know a few people who can easily score SS HR in already insane ODs (or even with DT added) but have a rough time trying to achieve the same SS in HD (which has obviously less OD than HR) for the sake of it, so no, I can't agree with you.

As a side note, the OD increase caused by HR adds more spinner hits required to clear it in Taiko, earning you more score than in HD, which is why HR SSes have more score than HD SSes in maps with spinners, attracting players to go HR in such maps (especially if the spinner is like in AugoEiDes or such).

I felt like I still have few more things to add, but I can't come up to it. Threw my three cents.

RaneFire wrote:

_Gezo_ wrote:

Whoever legitimately thinks that HD and DS are correlated need their head checked. The area is pretty large to read on, so people can play it correctly.

Taiko players so sensitive. I didn't make any accusations, I was just using it as an example in my "free points" analogy. Maybe I shouldn't have said that, but I didn't know how else to put it, or what example I could have used instead. I did not imply that people were legitimately using DS.

And this, people, is why I hate generalizations.

</post>

can we know if this current system is the last one or is going to have some modifications since is pretty broken

Tom94 wrote:

I'll address it this weekend. While it's valid for some players to have such plays in their best performance list (if they're not good at other things), it shouldnt be able to give so much pp in general.

I don't mean to be impatient or rush anything, but two (2) weekends have passed since this was posted and absolutely nothing has been changed.
I'd like to give further feedback on the system, but I want to wait until after the announced update at least. Changing too many things at a time would only make it harder to pinpoint why things improved/went downhill.
Btw, by now eoe has farmed his way to #1 through spam maps. Yes, he is a very good player. But he does not deserve #1, and especially not because of those maps.

Luna wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

I'll address it this weekend. While it's valid for some players to have such plays in their best performance list (if they're not good at other things), it shouldnt be able to give so much pp in general.

I don't mean to be impatient or rush anything, but two (2) weekends have passed since this was posted and absolutely nothing has been changed.
I'd like to give further feedback on the system, but I want to wait until after the announced update at least. Changing too many things at a time would only make it harder to pinpoint why things improved/went downhill.
Btw, by now eoe has farmed his way to #1 through spam maps. Yes, he is a very good player. But he does not deserve #1, and especially not because of those maps.

You're completely right, I apologize for missing this deadline. I had experimented with these things and had a modified version running locally and I wonder how it slipped getting pushed to the servers. Sorry again. :/
eoe has quite good accuracy on some of these maps, thouh, so I can't really say what exactly will happen. He will likely drop from #1 but I don't know how much. Might require a change to the difficulty calculation part, reducing the impact of speed even further compared to rhythm and color complexity. Would that make sense?

If you are going to drop the speed weighting so heavily that spam maps become fairly weighted, truly difficult speed maps would likely be underrated.
I still prefer just cutting the pp gain from converted maps by a decent margin, as was requested initially.

Luna wrote:

If you are going to drop the speed weighting so heavily that spam maps become fairly weighted, truly difficult speed maps would likely be underrated.
I still prefer just cutting the pp gain from converted maps by a decent margin, as was requested initially.

That doesn't make any sense at all, because anyone could map a taiko-specific map which is the exact same as a converted standard map which would still get weighted higher. That's stupidly inconsistent.

Also all you guys always say how "spam" maps shouldn't be weighted to much. While I agree that there might not be much rhythm into it there still barely are people who can do some of those ridiculous speeds.

They could make a map that's exactly the same, but it wouldn't get ranked, thus not counting towards pp.
The amount of converted maps that are actually in a rankable state is probably in the single digits or something.

And about the spam maps: We mentioned this before, but people use macros to effectively use 4 keys per color and stuff like that. Kinda defeats the purpose of having ridiculously high BPM streams.

Luna wrote:

They could make a map that's exactly the same, but it wouldn't get ranked, thus not counting towards pp.
The amount of converted maps that are actually in a rankable state is probably in the single digits or something.

And about the spam maps: We mentioned this before, but people use macros to effectively use 4 keys per color and stuff like that. Kinda defeats the purpose of having ridiculously high BPM streams.

It doesn't matter whether it gets ranked or not. Ranking is a human process that no algorithm can grasp. If the algorithm can't even get basic logical constraints done, how do you expect it to deal with unforseen future things?

If they use macros they should get banned... I do not plan on adjusting the ranking system for cheaters. Punishing legitimately fast players because other people use illegal methods is not the way to go.

The announced changes went live btw. Please wait a day or so for everything to update.

But, is a muzu/easy-oni level player who can mash his keyboard better than a 10*+ oni player who can't mash keyboard ? I don't think so. Spamming mono color "stream" (These are not stream, ou don't need to do regular 220 BPM you just need to mash the fastest you can) isn't a taiko-related skill. It seems like you think otherwise and whatever we can say to you won't change your mind.

If ranked status does not matter at all, then why isn't the pp system for standard optimized for crazy 2B maps with circles during sliders and spinners, offscreen sliders etc?
And the macro/dual-keyboard users are just the same as dual screen HDFL players. Even if everybody knows it, peppy doesn't seem to care, so nothing is ever going to happen to them.

implying that it is for taiko

errrr, you said eoe does not deserve #1, but that's just your opinion. He has amazing DT, acc and speed scores. Just because most of players can't do the same does not mean you have the right to say that pressing keys fast is not taiko related. i can do 220 1/8 dkdkdkdk and ddkkddkkdd streams but i can't do monocolour ones so what, that's my fault for being lazy it's not the fault of other players that they are faster than me and can play certain things better. I don't get it, it's not like any person who posted in this thread is even close to top 10 players in the world. I don't really get it why we stil weigh converts lower, it's illogical, mapping same thing and ticking "taiko sepcific" won't make it harder by magic. I can understand it since the algorithm is still being worked on, bt in the long run all maps should weigh the same, only theirs' difficulty should be considered.

Well, I think it's pretty obvious that Orukaa is better than eoe in just about every aspect of the game.
eoe is amazingly good, top 10 in the world for sure, but calling those spam scores his best performances is almost insulting imho

In order to contemplate on why monotonous 1/8 "dumps" should not gain additional weight in pp, we have to investigate different types of skill in Taiko. I doubt that anybody would disagree with me that there are the general Speed, as in fingerspeed, and Reading Speed skills.

Dependant on the player who is looking at X skilled player, it obviously proves to be entirely subjective whether "fingerspeed" should be considered as a skill relying on control, i.e. in order to DT Taiko Onis, or simply the mere speed of your fingers mashing on one and the same pattern for 2 minutes, which is actually called "Vibrating". It as an undoubtable fact that both require an insane amount of Stamina, which supposedly accentuates those players possessing it on high levels - implying we are talking about legit players and not those who use two keyboards/8 keys or a macro.

Reading Speed, however, does not correlate with Speed so long as you do not posses the stamina to play high BPM stuff. Now can that skill still be applied to autoconverted maps even without stamina? Very much so. If you have good Reading Speed and are able to do basic Taiko patterns, you unwillingly will be able to do good on a great amount of autoconverts, which might or might not be rather harsh, i.e. difficult/insane rated in Standard. Even if you take those maps, which may be extremely confusing due to an improbable high amount of BPM changes (or BPM "traps" as I'd like to call them) into consideration, you are still going to be able to do good on them so long as you are willing to memorize the most crucial parts.

The crucial question is: In how much does the ability to compete with top-noch players as a lower ranked player on autoconverted maps correlate with the ability to do well on Taiko Onis?

Considering the amount of extremely obnoxiously autoconverted maps is obviously much greater than the amount of Taiko Maps, I do think that Taiko Onis in general should be the base for accurate skill judges, and not maps like Atama No Taisou, Mad Machine or all the val0108 maps. I am sure that there are players like me, who are simply not willing to play autoconverted maps, as they simply do not apply as something considerably fun-to-play in my (or their) eyes. They either consist of afore mentioned BPM "traps", monotonous and boring patterns, or 1/8 dump stream patterns that might make perfect sense in Standard, but never in Taiko. There are only so few that I can actually think of, of which some were actually used in the Taiko World Cup, that can get close to what I consider a fun autoconvert. But those are probably exceptions because the mappers of precisely these maps have or had their fingers on Taiko as well.

I would like to omit further text and see what you have to say, but my opinion towards "being able to play autoconverted maps should not be considered a general Taikoskill" will not change. It might be some sort of "specialisation", but it is not and should not be enough to get a player of this sort considerably ranked higher than those who play with what everybody would consider "true" skill.

My 2 cents

Luna wrote:

If ranked status does not matter at all, then why isn't the pp system for standard optimized for crazy 2B maps with circles during sliders and spinners, offscreen sliders etc?
And the macro/dual-keyboard users are just the same as dual screen HDFL players. Even if everybody knows it, peppy doesn't seem to care, so nothing is ever going to happen to them.

First of all the standard algorithm works well even for retarded maps. Regarding multi-monitor or certain forms of macro usage: How would you go with proving that these are being used?

Nashmun wrote:

But, is a muzu/easy-oni level player who can mash his keyboard better than a 10*+ oni player who can't mash keyboard ? I don't think so. Spamming mono color "stream" (These are not stream, ou don't need to do regular 220 BPM you just need to mash the fastest you can) isn't a taiko-related skill. It seems like you think otherwise and whatever we can say to you won't change your mind.

I don't know how you reach that conclusion. I said that I won't give autoconverts an arbitrary penalty, because it doesn't make sense, not that mashing scores should be considered that much.

In other words: If the ultra high-speed mashing scores get nerfed, then monocolor speed in general has to get nerfed.

You make it sound like I'd disregard what you all are saying, while today's update (arguably) improved the situation by quite a bit.

If autoconverts are weighting to much, then there is a fundamental error in the algorithm which has to be addressed. Doing so likely improves the algorithm for Taiko-specific maps, too. Just imagine the hypothetical case where a "mashable" Taiko-specific would be ranked.
Giving autoconverts an arbitrary penalty is unfair compared to the (albeit rare) case of legitimately good converts and leads to inconsistencies in the entire system. It's like trying to fix a cracking bridge with duct-tape.

It'd be amazing to know of alternative solutions on how to fix the mashing issue that don't include scaling down an arbitrary collection of maps.


Finally I would like to leave some words about eoe and the current "mashing" situation:
eoe's most giving pp scores have very high accuracy. At least judging from my own vibrating capabilities I believe getting 98.5% - 99% on 400+ BPM maps is not to be taken on the light shoulder. I wouldn't consider this simple mashing, this is some seriously advanced stuff if it is done without macros and the likes. I barely see any other mashing scores (talking about the ones with lower accuracy and combo!) on anyone's best performance lists anymore.

Xay wrote:

In order to contemplate on why monotonous 1/8 "dumps" should not gain additional weight in pp, we have to investigate different types of skill in Taiko. I doubt that anybody would disagree with me that there are the general Speed, as in fingerspeed, and Reading Speed skills.

Dependant on the player who is looking at X skilled player, it obviously proves to be entirely subjective whether "fingerspeed" should be considered as a skill relying on control, i.e. in order to DT Taiko Onis, or simply the mere speed of your fingers mashing on one and the same pattern for 2 minutes, which is actually called "Vibrating". It as an undoubtable fact that both require an insane amount of Stamina, which supposedly accentuates those players possessing it on high levels - implying we are talking about legit players and not those who use two keyboards/8 keys or a macro.

Reading Speed, however, does not correlate with Speed so long as you do not posses the stamina to play high BPM stuff. Now can that skill still be applied to autoconverted maps even without stamina? Very much so. If you have good Reading Speed and are able to do basic Taiko patterns, you unwillingly will be able to do good on a great amount of autoconverts, which might or might not be rather harsh, i.e. difficult/insane rated in Standard. Even if you take those maps, which may be extremely confusing due to an improbable high amount of BPM changes (or BPM "traps" as I'd like to call them) into consideration, you are still going to be able to do good on them so long as you are willing to memorize the most crucial parts.

The crucial question is: In how much does the ability to compete with top-noch players as a lower ranked player on autoconverted maps correlate with the ability to do well on Taiko Onis?

Considering the amount of extremely obnoxiously autoconverted maps is obviously much greater than the amount of Taiko Maps, I do think that Taiko Onis in general should be the base for accurate skill judges, and not maps like Atama No Taisou, Mad Machine or all the val0108 maps. I am sure that there are players like me, who are simply not willing to play autoconverted maps, as they simply do not apply as something considerably fun-to-play in my (or their) eyes. They either consist of afore mentioned BPM "traps", monotonous and boring patterns, or 1/8 dump stream patterns that might make perfect sense in Standard, but never in Taiko. There are only so few that I can actually think of, of which some were actually used in the Taiko World Cup, that can get close to what I consider a fun autoconvert. But those are probably exceptions because the mappers of precisely these maps have or had their fingers on Taiko as well.

I would like to omit further text and see what you have to say, but my opinion towards "being able to play autoconverted maps should not be considered a general Taikoskill" will not change. It might be some sort of "specialisation", but it is not and should not be enough to get a player of this sort considerably ranked higher than those who play with what everybody would consider "true" skill.

My 2 cents

I can't disagree with anything you said. My point still stands, that the algorithm itself needs to be fixed if it overrates some cases of autoconverts instead of just dumping all autoconverts into the trash bin by giving them an arbitrary penalty. That also improves the algorithm's accuracy regarding Taiko-specific maps since it'd be more specialized for those to begin with.

Tom94 wrote:

I barely see any other mashing scores (talking about the ones with lower accuracy and combo!) on anyone's best performance lists anymore.

whosthebox and Midnaait are still top 40 based almost exclusively on spam scores.
But yes, I agree, it's better than it was before.
(Waiting for full update of all users before I give further feedback on the algorithm)

It looks pretty nice (at least to me now), since all of my top scores now are Taiko-specific

Tom94 wrote:

Xay wrote:

In order to contemplate on why monotonous 1/8 "dumps" should not gain additional weight in pp, we have to investigate different types of skill in Taiko. I doubt that anybody would disagree with me that there are the general Speed, as in fingerspeed, and Reading Speed skills.

Dependant on the player who is looking at X skilled player, it obviously proves to be entirely subjective whether "fingerspeed" should be considered as a skill relying on control, i.e. in order to DT Taiko Onis, or simply the mere speed of your fingers mashing on one and the same pattern for 2 minutes, which is actually called "Vibrating". It as an undoubtable fact that both require an insane amount of Stamina, which supposedly accentuates those players possessing it on high levels - implying we are talking about legit players and not those who use two keyboards/8 keys or a macro.

Reading Speed, however, does not correlate with Speed so long as you do not posses the stamina to play high BPM stuff. Now can that skill still be applied to autoconverted maps even without stamina? Very much so. If you have good Reading Speed and are able to do basic Taiko patterns, you unwillingly will be able to do good on a great amount of autoconverts, which might or might not be rather harsh, i.e. difficult/insane rated in Standard. Even if you take those maps, which may be extremely confusing due to an improbable high amount of BPM changes (or BPM "traps" as I'd like to call them) into consideration, you are still going to be able to do good on them so long as you are willing to memorize the most crucial parts.

The crucial question is: In how much does the ability to compete with top-noch players as a lower ranked player on autoconverted maps correlate with the ability to do well on Taiko Onis?

Considering the amount of extremely obnoxiously autoconverted maps is obviously much greater than the amount of Taiko Maps, I do think that Taiko Onis in general should be the base for accurate skill judges, and not maps like Atama No Taisou, Mad Machine or all the val0108 maps. I am sure that there are players like me, who are simply not willing to play autoconverted maps, as they simply do not apply as something considerably fun-to-play in my (or their) eyes. They either consist of afore mentioned BPM "traps", monotonous and boring patterns, or 1/8 dump stream patterns that might make perfect sense in Standard, but never in Taiko. There are only so few that I can actually think of, of which some were actually used in the Taiko World Cup, that can get close to what I consider a fun autoconvert. But those are probably exceptions because the mappers of precisely these maps have or had their fingers on Taiko as well.

I would like to omit further text and see what you have to say, but my opinion towards "being able to play autoconverted maps should not be considered a general Taikoskill" will not change. It might be some sort of "specialisation", but it is not and should not be enough to get a player of this sort considerably ranked higher than those who play with what everybody would consider "true" skill.

My 2 cents

I can't disagree with anything you said. My point still stands, that the algorithm itself needs to be fixed if it overrates some cases of autoconverts instead of just dumping all autoconverts into the trash bin by giving them an arbitrary penalty. That also improves the algorithm's accuracy regarding Taiko-specific maps since it'd be more specialized for those to begin with.

i think it's a lot safer if converts get a small penalty since i think a lot of the difficulty of them comes from things like big notes and sv changes and sliders that i don't think the algorithm deals with. plus most taiko players just stick to taiko maps so it would only affect a small amount of people

that said why the hell is my rank so high now

I MEAN CONVERTS SHOULD STILL BE INCLUDED BUT MAYBE AT A SMALLER AMOUNT THEY ARE STILL MAPS EVEN IF THEY AREN'T SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR TAIKO