I was #169 I was so happy

now im #161

i hate all of you responsible for this

Well I went from 5.8k to 11k. I did trick the system quite a bit to get to 5k, but not too much. The proof being I've already climbed 4k ranks since I've logged in.

My main issue though is that sometimes I will pass a song, it will end up in my best performances, but I won't get any pp for it. A little strange. Also, osusig doesn't update properly. I've had to change the signature layout twice already just to update it, but that's fairly miniscule.

I noticed the new ranking system favors mods even though some no mod maps are a lot more difficult and reward less.

Nakage wrote:

The proof being I've already climbed 4k ranks since I've logged in.

Don't forget to count the fact that inactive players were purged from the rankings.


I really like the system as it is right now. Counting all ranks in the system instead of top 1000/800 or 500 makes it a lot more motivating to try and beat your older scores. Went up from 3.5k (ppv1) to 1.8k.

muh speedy fingers

Syclasm wrote:

Don't forget to count the fact that inactive players were purged from the rankings.

Right :3 the purge made me climb 2300 ranks, so I still went from 9.3k to 7.5k, still decent imo.

~

I like this change actually. It feels much more skill based now rather than just knowing what maps to farm up. The way it was before, if you were in the top 300 or so, then you could make it up to the top 10 if you played enough. You would have enough skill to do so because all the maps that would give the most PP are right around that level to easily farm.

My only problem is rank updates. I played 2 songs. 1 of them made it onto the very top of my best performances, I went up 30 ranks. The 2nd one made it to the 2nd highest, I went up 800 ranks (Now sitting at 6761). I'm sure the ranks aren't clustered that hard in pp to where there's a 100 pp gap somewhere at rank 7k.

EDIT: If it's still in the process of cleaning inactive users, I should note I also went up ~100 pp by playing the 2 songs, so I think the 800 ranks was from the pp, not the cleaning.

Layne wrote:

I lofe the chnge in thisbmpe ok vry god.
thx u

wat

Can't we just use pp rank instead of score rank for every song like the tp website? or keep both so best pp rank and best score rank are independent.

If ppv2 is using the same difficulty calculations on maps as tp, why is it that my highest and 3rd highest tp maps don't make my best performance even though everything below did?

i guess its good. i went from 8.1k to 8.6k and my acc went up by 1% for some reason. no flaws that i can see

Almost wrote:

If ppv2 is using the same difficulty calculations on maps as tp, why is it that my highest and 3rd highest tp maps don't make my best performance even though everything below did?

shh at least you're higher than me

my second highest ppv2 score gave me gave me 0tp.

GoldenWolf wrote:

Everyone who used to rank up by tricking the system are getting wrecked quite hard now huehue
 

It's actually quite nice that easier ranks don't get counted as heavily. Sometimes when I'm tired of playing hard maps over and over I take a "break" where I try getting a top 50 on easier maps. It's a good way to relax a bit if your hands hurt or if you're tired but if you still want to play, but in the old system that'd make your rank go up increasingly. Now I can do the same thing without having to worry about having a "farmed" rank.


I agree with some of the previous posts that it might be nice to see the amount of pp a certain map has earned you, though I understand if that might be annoying to implement.

I have a question about something I've seen in the rankings - next to some ranks, I've seen something like ^3d. Does this refer to the amount of time passed since that score was set? And why does it only show for some rankings, even though I set some other ranks that didn't have that sign beside them?

[AirCoN] wrote:

Almost wrote:

If ppv2 is using the same difficulty calculations on maps as tp, why is it that my highest and 3rd highest tp maps don't make my best performance even though everything below did?

shh at least you're higher than me

my second highest ppv2 score gave me gave me 0tp.

We both know I'm worse though

Good to see that peppy finally decided to let you manage this stuff.

Syclasm wrote:

. Counting all ranks in the system instead of top 1000/800 or 500 makes it a lot more motivating to try and beat your older scores.

Considering that some of my top performances are scores i got with less than 3x100 and 1 miss, it has totally made me lose all motivation to replay those maps for fear of losing pp lol.

­

Hi Tom, your TP and ppv2 systems are really good, but I have some complaints about ppv2.
My userpage: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/1783793
As you can see, it's my best performance:

I don't think these two achievements:
Demetori - Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End [Lunatic] (97.76% HD)
Dark PHOENiX - Taketori Hishou [Extra] (98.25% HD)
should be posted in it. I mean, I have some 140+ bpm DT HD scores, and they are better than these two above, I think.
I wonder why these two scores can get much pp for me, you know, the acc is not so high and the beatmap is not so diffucult.

Thanks for your hard working

The new System is great how I said last week

I got a ultraboost ... from 24k to 18k after 1 1/2H Playing to 14k

24k PP(v1) -> 18k PP(v2) -> 14k lawl

Gain PP is now harder with the Difficult Easy-Hard and Insane+ became important.
The new System is more Skill-based how I like it

Huge improvements, nice job by all participants!
--
Now that we have difiiculty levels for each map let us browse in osu! and on the website according to these levels, so that one can find a appropriate beatmap easier. Also include a ranking on how fast the map is and how hard the jumps are. This will give people a general idea on who is the better aimer and who has more speed and lets them choose beatmaps according to that.

Don't just take the score with the highest amount of points as the one relevant for pp. A HD+HR FC is worth less than a DT+HD S with one sliderbreak in the middle of the map, but will always award more points.
Probably one could calculate the pp for every score you get and compare it to your current top score. If it was a better performance the new one is chosen as the relevant pp score, even though it awards less points. (e.g. the DT+HD sliderbreak now appears as top rank for pp instead of the HD+HR FC).

A new score system showing the performance of the scores would also work great instead of the suggestion above.
Now that you guys found a way to calculate the actual peroformance nearly accurate, why don't you use this as the "score". So instead of showing the amount of points, the leaderboards could show the pp for each score.
This would support the great pp system and would work as well as the current system for tournaments.
--
Thanks for reading this!
I hope you could get some ideas of it (and that I thought of some new stuff, don't know if others already mentioned it).

best wishes,
Peter

Soarezi wrote:

In my eyes, right now, everything seems just perfect. The performances are basically based on skill, and the hardness of the scores. And that's how it should be, for now, really good job.

I agree ~

New ranking is great! I'm now placed around those who I think has similar skills in mp, so it's a big improvement.

Great job all!

The new system is definitely more accurate. I really like the new system because it actually encourages me to play challenging maps and do well, which is better for my improvement than the previous system where I didn't really have to push myself for ranks.

Rewben2 wrote:

I really like the new system because it actually encourages me to play challenging maps and do well, which is better for my improvement than the previous system where I didn't really have to push myself for ranks.

This. Improving your rank is now actually about improving... not just playing more maps.

_-KirA-_ wrote:

I feel like there is some sort of justice with this update

Not only you.

[Sakagami Tomoyo] wrote:

Hi Tom, your TP and ppv2 systems are really good, but I have some complaints about ppv2.
My userpage: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/1783793
As you can see, it's my best performance:

I don't think these two achievements:
Demetori - Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End [Lunatic] (97.76% HD)
Dark PHOENiX - Taketori Hishou [Extra] (98.25% HD)
should be posted in it. I mean, I have some 140+ bpm DT HD scores, and they are better than these two above, I think.
I wonder why these two scores can get much pp for me, you know, the acc is not so high and the beatmap is not so diffucult.

Thanks for your hard working

I have to say these two scores are really damn impressive, I could never do them myself, especially not Taketori Hishou. What you consider a good score is also somehow dependent on the player. Maybe for you these scores aren't that good but maybe for other players the 140+ bpm DT HD scores aren't that good.

This song seems really under-valued to me. - http://osu.ppy.sh/b/137166?m=0
I spent quite a while getting a DT HD FC on it and got basically nothing, some of my other top scores though I would say are no where near as hard as it was for me to FC doll house.

For some reason this seems to be giving a lot of PP - http://osu.ppy.sh/b/95431?m=0
It doesn't seem like that hard of a map to me, not easy, but not worth the points it is giving imo.

I think that speed is being overvalued. Almost all of my top ranks are songs that just put out a lot of notes with not too much difficulty in-between them. Anyway just stuff I've been noticing and don't quite agree with. This system is already miles ahead of PPv1 so I'm happy with it, but it can always be better.

Bad accuracy hd hr scores dont reward much because hr is very accuracy based except on maps like dispel where the aim is the hardest part rather than acc

Tom94 wrote:

The rank which has a higher score will count, that is the one which will end up marked as your best in the ingame scoreboard.

I actually had a song where I had a previous rank of 360 or so on before the changes to pp, I played it again today and got a rank of 470 something and went from 1546 pp --> 1547 pp, played it once more and got a rank of 318 but got no pp at all from it. This system confuses me a bit =x

I had an interesting idea.

I know peppy wants to try to put a lot of emphasis on "Contextually relevant" scores into a ranking system, something like a ladder.

I've noticed an effect amongst certain scoreboards, something I guess we can call Scoreboard Stability.

It's hard to explain well, so examples are best I guess?

Highly "Unstable" Scoreboards (The top scores vary heavily on the same mod tier, few if any FCs or SS):
FREEDOM DiVE
osu! Stream Compilation
Don't say "lazy"
Usually incredibly difficult, long, or new maps.

Highly "Stable" Scoreboards (The top scores on the same mod tiers are incredibly similar):
Sis puella magica!
Chousai Kenbo Sengen
Usually incredibly easy or highly played maps.

I think maps with a higher unstable rate scoreboards are generally more "Contextual" (OMG, who's going to be the first to FC this? Who will be the first to FC this with HDHR? DT? FL? First to SS?)

For example, plays like some of Mesita's Flashlight plays (World's End, Gold Dust) or some of Cookiezi's old DT/HR/SS plays (Leia, Airman, Kokou no Sousei) are particularly impressive because they're pretty much the only ones who have charted with those mods or stats.

On the other hand, getting a first place in something like Chousai Kenbo Sengen, while impressive, is slightly less so because so many others have proven themselves of accomplishing it. Unless it's SS, which in this comparison I guess you could consider a Mod tier.

Anyways, I think if you had a way of comparing scoreboard instability and either compiling a chart or weighting the PP top ranks towards more unstable maps we would have a nice context relevant ranking formula.

The rough scale would range from the feasible infinite instability (Nobody has ever even passed this) to the quite impossible infinite stability (Literally ever user in existence has SS.) and award most possible points if you're the only existing user who's achieved the rank. (Mesita only user to S rank World's End on HDFL or better.)

Am I making sense?

This would give flashlight players something to hunt for as they can get high PP values of maps that nobody else has gotten a FL FC in before.

It also would weight more recent plays higher since scoreboards naturally stabilize more over time with some significantly slower outliers.

In ppv1 I was 8.3k. In ppv2 I was 10.3k. In this iteration of ppv2 I'm 8.3k. No change here.

However I do like it a lot more, looking at the top players it seems like everyone is being given an accurate place, and I like the fact that if I get a slider break in a 1,000 note song I still get considered for getting pp. It makes ranking a lot less stressful because I dont actually care about the scoreboard ranks at all. They're too volitile, and the people who belong there should always be higher skill level than me.

Soarezi wrote:

Bad accuracy hd hr scores dont reward much because hr is very accuracy based except on maps like dispel where the aim is the hardest part rather than acc

yyyup

even in tp if you got a bad accuracy HR score the only thing that you got more of was aim tp, and even then it was like 30 more than nomod

by getting good accuracy you get like 60 more accuracy tp increasing the total tp gain and thus since this system is based on tp increasing the total pp gained

all in all low accuracy HR is useless now unless the map is really really hard to aim already

DT is pretty stupidly weighed, but I guess that's fine as it's one of the harsher mods. Maybe reduce the amount on DT just a tad bit while bumping a tad bit up on HD HR since HR is a bitch.

[Sakagami Tomoyo] wrote:

Hi Tom, your TP and ppv2 systems are really good, but I have some complaints about ppv2.
My userpage: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/1783793
As you can see, it's my best performance:

I don't think these two achievements:
Demetori - Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End [Lunatic] (97.76% HD)
Dark PHOENiX - Taketori Hishou [Extra] (98.25% HD)
should be posted in it. I mean, I have some 140+ bpm DT HD scores, and they are better than these two above, I think.
I wonder why these two scores can get much pp for me, you know, the acc is not so high and the beatmap is not so diffucult.

Thanks for your hard working

Could you let me know what exactly those DT HD scores are? I'll look into it then.

EvaRia wrote:

snip

Am I making sense?

This would give flashlight players something to hunt for as they can get high PP values of maps that nobody else has gotten a FL FC in before.

It also would weight more recent plays higher since scoreboards naturally stabilize more over time with some significantly slower outliers.

While a good idea in theory, ppv1 actually had this to some degree, and would make ppv2 open to farming since there are so many maps which people haven't tried to FL, but are certainly possible. It's not that FL is "way too hard" as it is just uncommonly used because it's not that fun.

thelewa wrote:

all in all low accuracy HR is useless now unless the map is really really hard to aim already

What is a low accuracy HR? Anything under 99%?

Comparing here, you'd have to practically SS od10 to get any decent amount of pp on maps which can be commonly SS'd nomod.

Melt3dCheeze wrote:

DT is pretty stupidly weighed, but I guess that's fine as it's one of the harsher mods. Maybe reduce the amount on DT just a tad bit while bumping a tad bit up on HD HR since HR is a bitch.

but this is based on tp

tp doesn't have weighting on mods like DT and HR because those are mods that change the map and the difficulty settings in themselves

I'd assume that all that's done is that the mod changed map is run through the difficulty calculator again, meaning that how much more pp DT and HR will give is based entirely on the map

Tom can correct me on this I have no idea if I've got this right

RaneFire wrote:

thelewa wrote:

all in all low accuracy HR is useless now unless the map is really really hard to aim already

What is a low accuracy HR? Anything under 99%?

Comparing here, you'd have to practically SS od10 to get any decent amount of pp on maps which can be commonly SS'd nomod.

anything under 99% on HR gives very little accuracy points on osu!tp so yyyyep

but instead of getting under 99% accuracy on HR you could just, you know, git gud?

thelewa wrote:

Melt3dCheeze wrote:

DT is pretty stupidly weighed, but I guess that's fine as it's one of the harsher mods. Maybe reduce the amount on DT just a tad bit while bumping a tad bit up on HD HR since HR is a bitch.

but this is based on tp

tp doesn't have weighting on mods like DT and HR because those are mods that change the map and the difficulty settings in themselves

I'd assume that all that's done is that the mod changed map is run through the difficulty calculator again, meaning that how much more pp DT and HR will give is based entirely on the map

Tom can correct me on this I have no idea if I've got this right

Correct.

thelewa wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

What is a low accuracy HR? Anything under 99%?

Comparing here, you'd have to practically SS od10 to get any decent amount of pp on maps which can be commonly SS'd nomod.

anything under 99% on HR gives very little accuracy points on osu!tp so yyyyep

but instead of getting under 99% accuracy on HR you could just, you know, git gud?

Pfft, what you call "very little" might be quite a lot for others. It's heavily based off OD, so having the same accuracy with HR as with nomod will also give a lot more pp. But yeah, the closer you get to 100%, the more points you get. Just look at it this way:
A 98% score has twice as many 100s/50s as a 99% score. The 99% score should therefore give a lot more points.

oh yeah maybe I should've mentioned that part about the 100's

As for the whole topic, tl;dr

Just asking since my rank now seems true, but still I experienced a significant drop compared to tp (maybe it's all about using all scores, not top 50)

Is the weighing the same as in tp? I mean does the number of your good scores matter more now?
Is there a division between aim/speed/acc or PP is acquired based on total points for the map? (in TP when you had low speed points and then got a good speed score you sky-rocketed in rank)
How is it with accuracy? - does it matter even more now?



@EDIT - Maybe this is not the place for such suggestion, but I'd like to know whether it's doable


For those who aren't happy with their HHR (because they did a far harder DT but couldn't beat the HHR) scores or w/e, could there be an option letting you choose among your scores as which should appear in the scoreboard/which one should be counted? That would solve the problem, but dunno if it's possible to implement.

peterhasaparker wrote:

Huge improvements, nice job by all participants!
--
Now that we have difiiculty levels for each map let us browse in osu! and on the website according to these levels, so that one can find a appropriate beatmap easier. Also include a ranking on how fast the map is and how hard the jumps are. This will give people a general idea on who is the better aimer and who has more speed and lets them choose beatmaps according to that.

Don't just take the score with the highest amount of points as the one relevant for pp. A HD+HR FC is worth less than a DT+HD S with one sliderbreak in the middle of the map, but will always award more points.
Probably one could calculate the pp for every score you get and compare it to your current top score. If it was a better performance the new one is chosen as the relevant pp score, even though it awards less points. (e.g. the DT+HD sliderbreak now appears as top rank for pp instead of the HD+HR FC).

A new score system showing the performance of the scores would also work great instead of the suggestion above.
Now that you guys found a way to calculate the actual peroformance nearly accurate, why don't you use this as the "score". So instead of showing the amount of points, the leaderboards could show the pp for each score.
This would support the great pp system and would work as well as the current system for tournaments.
--
Thanks for reading this!
I hope you could get some ideas of it (and that I thought of some new stuff, don't know if others already mentioned it).

best wishes,
Peter

If the difficulty algorithm ever was to change (which it will!) then all the top scores would become moot, since previous scores, which have not been registered might be considered better afterwards. This is why a stable scoring system is required - even though I agree that the current scoring system is not the best option. It'd be impossible to re-calculate the score for all existing scores, which is why this likely won't change.

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

As for the whole topic, tl;dr

Just asking since my rank now seems true, but still I experienced a significant drop compared to tp (maybe it's all about using all scores, not top 50)

Is the weighing the same as in tp? I mean does the number of your good scores matter more now?
Is there a division between aim/speed/acc or PP is acquired based on total points for the map? (in TP when you had low speed points and then got a good speed score you sky-rocketed in rank)
How is it with accuracy? - does it matter even more now?

@EDIT - Maybe this is not the place for such suggestion, but I'd like to know whether it's doable


For those who aren't happy with their HHR (because they did a far harder DT but couldn't beat the HHR) scores or w/e, could there be an option letting you choose among your scores as which should appear in the scoreboard/which one should be counted? That would solve the problem, but dunno if it's possible to implement.

Due to processing limitations the total score value is used at score stage already. This might change in the future, but until then scores won't be weighted in all 3 categories independently. Regarding your rank drop - let's wait a bit until all inactive players have been removed. Everyone should increase in rank slightly with that.

Regarding your edit - I'm not sure how good of an idea that is. Scoreboards are supposed to represent your highest score, so you'd trade an inconsistency here for an inconsistency there + additional toggles. But I don't know what the future might bring. :p

EvaRia wrote:

SPOILER

I had an interesting idea.

I know peppy wants to try to put a lot of emphasis on "Contextually relevant" scores into a ranking system, something like a ladder.

I've noticed an effect amongst certain scoreboards, something I guess we can call Scoreboard Stability.

It's hard to explain well, so examples are best I guess?

Highly "Unstable" Scoreboards (The top scores vary heavily on the same mod tier, few if any FCs or SS):
FREEDOM DiVE
osu! Stream Compilation
Don't say "lazy"
Usually incredibly difficult, long, or new maps.

Highly "Stable" Scoreboards (The top scores on the same mod tiers are incredibly similar):
Sis puella magica!
Chousai Kenbo Sengen
Usually incredibly easy or highly played maps.

I think maps with a higher unstable rate scoreboards are generally more "Contextual" (OMG, who's going to be the first to FC this? Who will be the first to FC this with HDHR? DT? FL? First to SS?)

For example, plays like some of Mesita's Flashlight plays (World's End, Gold Dust) or some of Cookiezi's old DT/HR/SS plays (Leia, Airman, Kokou no Sousei) are particularly impressive because they're pretty much the only ones who have charted with those mods or stats.

On the other hand, getting a first place in something like Chousai Kenbo Sengen, while impressive, is slightly less so because so many others have proven themselves of accomplishing it. Unless it's SS, which in this comparison I guess you could consider a Mod tier.

Anyways, I think if you had a way of comparing scoreboard instability and either compiling a chart or weighting the PP top ranks towards more unstable maps we would have a nice context relevant ranking formula.

The rough scale would range from the feasible infinite instability (Nobody has ever even passed this) to the quite impossible infinite stability (Literally ever user in existence has SS.) and award most possible points if you're the only existing user who's achieved the rank. (Mesita only user to S rank World's End on HDFL or better.)

Am I making sense?

This would give flashlight players something to hunt for as they can get high PP values of maps that nobody else has gotten a FL FC in before.

It also would weight more recent plays higher since scoreboards naturally stabilize more over time with some significantly slower outliers.

The problem with this concept, is that the people who play [hard] diffs, old maps or top-tier maps are very different and therefore the data we have to analyze will also be different. This was one of the main issues of previous pp iterations, making [hard] and old maps being weighted much more, because statistically they seemed harder than they were since most of the good players didn't play them.

Not really a suggestion or feedback, but pretty dumb question; How hard is it to get points by playing nomod compared to playing with mods?

Good job with the new ranking system.

Do you ever plan on using play statistics to enhance the accuracy of the map difficulty algorithm or do you intend to use map data only?

Tom you should really try to concisely explain to people that this iteration of pp is fundamentally different since a lot of people think of this as just an improved version of ppv1

Spyrunite wrote:

This song seems really under-valued to me. - http://osu.ppy.sh/b/137166?m=0
I spent quite a while getting a DT HD FC on it and got basically nothing, some of my other top scores though I would say are no where near as hard as it was for me to FC doll house.

For some reason this seems to be giving a lot of PP - http://osu.ppy.sh/b/95431?m=0
It doesn't seem like that hard of a map to me, not easy, but not worth the points it is giving imo.

I think that speed is being overvalued. Almost all of my top ranks are songs that just put out a lot of notes with not too much difficulty in-between them. Anyway just stuff I've been noticing and don't quite agree with. This system is already miles ahead of PPv1 so I'm happy with it, but it can always be better.

I personally consider the second map you linked harder, than the first one. While having less demanding jumps, there still are quite a few near the end and it also challenged the streaming aspect of the game while those are pretty much inexistent in the first map you linked. Also the different ApproachRates are considered equally difficult when they lie in the interval 8 to 10, since many players have different subjective opinions about those.

Not saying, that your opinion is invalid, this is just my personal view on it. If the future feedback will go further in the direction you suggested, then I'll tweak the algorithm a bit.

Ziggo wrote:

Do you ever plan on using play statistics to enhance the accuracy of the map difficulty algorithm or do you intend to use map data only?

If I ever get an idea regarding map statistics, that would work, then I'd be more than happy to include it. The problem with it is, that constantly changing difficulty numbers mean a lot more stress to the processor. Using all available scores for the computation would be a lot harder this way.
The most important downside is what I mentioned earlier, though. Since the people who play [hard] maps are not the same people who play top-tier maps, a statistical comparison would just be wrong. Those only work well when you have the same sample data to work with.

thelewa wrote:

Tom you should really try to concisely explain to people that this iteration of pp is fundamentally different since a lot of people think of this as just an improved version of ppv1

I'm really tempted to answer with your current signature, but I'm sure some people would get that wrong.
As stated in the news post a wiki article is planned.

Tom94 wrote:

Due to processing limitations the total score value is used at score stage already. This might change in the future, but until then scores won't be weighted in all 3 categories independently.

I'm not sure if that's even necessary. Comparing the current top50 rankings between pp and tp I feel like the pp one might actually be better. Or maybe that's just me...

Almost wrote:

If ppv2 is using the same difficulty calculations on maps as tp, why is it that my highest and 3rd highest tp maps don't make my best performance even though everything below did?

Please explain Tom. :3

Ziggo wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Due to processing limitations the total score value is used at score stage already. This might change in the future, but until then scores won't be weighted in all 3 categories independently.

I'm not sure if that's even necessary. Comparing the current top50 rankings between pp and tp I feel like the pp one might actually be better. Or maybe that's just me...

That's not the only difference between tp and pp. It'll all make more sense when I found the time to write the wiki article - but don't expect it too soon. Unfortunately I'm very busy for the next 1.5 weeks.

Almost wrote:

Almost wrote:

If ppv2 is using the same difficulty calculations on maps as tp, why is it that my highest and 3rd highest tp maps don't make my best performance even though everything below did?

Please explain Tom. :3

The algorithms are not the same - they are just similar. I'll look into it, but can't give any definitive answer at the moment.

Tom94 wrote:

Ziggo wrote:

I'm not sure if that's even necessary. Comparing the current top50 rankings between pp and tp I feel like the pp one might actually be better. Or maybe that's just me...

That's not the only difference between tp and pp. It'll all make more sense when I found the time to write the wiki article - but don't expect it too soon. Unfortunately I'm very busy for the next 1.5 weeks.

Alright, I'll wait for the wiki then. But still, I believe getting good aim, speed and accuracy in a single score is more impressive than doing the same thing in 3 different scores. But I guess you are already aware of that and have a solution in mind.

Ninja edit to make thelewa look stupid.

that's the best quoting I've ever seen

My questions:

1. Since it says it both factors in difficulty and checks all scores, will you get pp for, let's say, a low acc pass of Freedom Dive 4D? (Or insert any other appropriately hard map) Or is FCing still heavily important?
   
2. Is there still a huge bonus for SS?
   
3. How much is accuracy weighted compared to ppv1?

Ippikiryu wrote:

My questions:

1. Since it says it both factors in difficulty and checks all scores, will you get pp for, let's say, a low acc pass of Freedom Dive 4D? (Or insert any other appropriately hard map) Or is FCing still heavily important?
   
2. Is there still a huge bonus for SS?
   
3. How much is accuracy weighted compared to ppv1?

In order:

Misses are penalized very strongly if you have more than just a few. Your combo relative to the maximum possible combo also plays a huge role. But you can indeed get a huge amount of pp for lower scores. A prime example would be jesus1412's C score on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/124501?m=0 . It is a 86% 500 combo with DoubleTime in case you are curious. That's an insane score on such a map, you are free to look at Auto-mode play it with DoubleTime.

SS does not have a huge bonus by itself, but due to the high accuracy required to get one (100% is quite high, eh? :p) it indirectly is worth a lot.

Accuracy is still very relevant, however not as much as in ppv1 anymore.

6,000 to 18,000. Woo!

Tom94 wrote:

EvaRia wrote:

SPOILER

I had an interesting idea.

I know peppy wants to try to put a lot of emphasis on "Contextually relevant" scores into a ranking system, something like a ladder.

I've noticed an effect amongst certain scoreboards, something I guess we can call Scoreboard Stability.

It's hard to explain well, so examples are best I guess?

Highly "Unstable" Scoreboards (The top scores vary heavily on the same mod tier, few if any FCs or SS):
FREEDOM DiVE
osu! Stream Compilation
Don't say "lazy"
Usually incredibly difficult, long, or new maps.

Highly "Stable" Scoreboards (The top scores on the same mod tiers are incredibly similar):
Sis puella magica!
Chousai Kenbo Sengen
Usually incredibly easy or highly played maps.

I think maps with a higher unstable rate scoreboards are generally more "Contextual" (OMG, who's going to be the first to FC this? Who will be the first to FC this with HDHR? DT? FL? First to SS?)

For example, plays like some of Mesita's Flashlight plays (World's End, Gold Dust) or some of Cookiezi's old DT/HR/SS plays (Leia, Airman, Kokou no Sousei) are particularly impressive because they're pretty much the only ones who have charted with those mods or stats.

On the other hand, getting a first place in something like Chousai Kenbo Sengen, while impressive, is slightly less so because so many others have proven themselves of accomplishing it. Unless it's SS, which in this comparison I guess you could consider a Mod tier.

Anyways, I think if you had a way of comparing scoreboard instability and either compiling a chart or weighting the PP top ranks towards more unstable maps we would have a nice context relevant ranking formula.

The rough scale would range from the feasible infinite instability (Nobody has ever even passed this) to the quite impossible infinite stability (Literally ever user in existence has SS.) and award most possible points if you're the only existing user who's achieved the rank. (Mesita only user to S rank World's End on HDFL or better.)

Am I making sense?

This would give flashlight players something to hunt for as they can get high PP values of maps that nobody else has gotten a FL FC in before.

It also would weight more recent plays higher since scoreboards naturally stabilize more over time with some significantly slower outliers.

The problem with this concept, is that the people who play [hard] diffs, old maps or top-tier maps are very different and therefore the data we have to analyze will also be different. This was one of the main issues of previous pp iterations, making [hard] and old maps being weighted much more, because statistically they seemed harder than they were since most of the good players didn't play them.

Well, keep in mind that what I'm proposing is a purely contextual metric.

I agree that as far as pure skill is involved, the difficulty of the map itself is the most relevant for determining skill level.

But since you're calculating primarily based on difficulty and not on context, where I'm proposing a metric based on context with no regard for difficulty, they could theoretically exist as different metrics right?

Even shoutouts to unique awesome plays (mostly for top tier players) would make things interesting.

"<NAME> is the first to achieve rank <RANK> or better using <MODS> on <BEATMAP> (<RANKING>)!"

I don't know how exactly it would be implemented right now, but as far as a ladder system or proper context frame goes, I feel like it would be better than whatever's currently popular. It gives a certain focus on undermining scores and record-hunting that I think would be neat to see. It would also be pretty dynamic, I think.

Unstable maps are played to get the score bonus, but as they get played they stabilize again. This leaves the more difficult maps that take much longer to stabilize lingering at the top of the chart and looking through it gives you a handy way of finding the most "relevant" leaderboards.

Maybe this doesn't work the way I imagine it would though?

EvaRia wrote:

SPOILER

The problem with this concept, is that the people who play [hard] diffs, old maps or top-tier maps are very different and therefore the data we have to analyze will also be different. This was one of the main issues of previous pp iterations, making [hard] and old maps being weighted much more, because statistically they seemed harder than they were since most of the good players didn't play them.

Well, keep in mind that what I'm proposing is a purely contextual metric.

I agree that as far as pure skill is involved, the difficulty of the map itself is the most relevant for determining skill level.

But since you're calculating primarily based on difficulty and not on context, where I'm proposing a metric based on context with no regard for difficulty, they could theoretically exist as different metrics right?

Even shoutouts to unique awesome plays (mostly for top tier players) would make things interesting.

"<NAME> is the first to achieve rank <RANK> or better using <MODS> on <BEATMAP> (<RANKING>)!"

I don't know how exactly it would be implemented right now, but as far as a ladder system or proper context frame goes, I feel like it would be better than whatever's currently popular. It gives a certain focus on undermining scores and record-hunting that I think would be neat to see. It would also be pretty dynamic, I think.

Unstable maps are played to get the score bonus, but as they get played they stabilize again. This leaves the more difficult maps that take much longer to stabilize lingering at the top of the chart and looking through it gives you a handy way of finding the most "relevant" leaderboards.

Maybe this doesn't work the way I imagine it would though?

What you're describing is somewhat dimilar to what the previous pp iterations tried to do and you've seen where it led to. Nobody has the time to play _all_ the overrated old / easy diffs to farm and make them "stable".
With a lot of work a system like that might be tuned to be somewhat correct, but from my past experiences (yes, I also tried those kind of things with tp to a small degree) it doubt it'd be feasible.

The shoutouts you mention are indeed very interesting, but that would be even harder to implement with the way scoring works at the moment.

Tom94 wrote:

. Pattern difficulty is not yet implemented but definitely planned.

Planned or actually going to happen?

i will have my old Rank ;_; please give it back
30k-->18k-->5k-->8k-->31k ;(

NaThaNeL wrote:

i will have my old Rank ;_; please give it back
30k-->18k-->5k-->8k-->31k ;(

It's time to learn to play Insanes++ (:

um, well, i am really confused with the new system, but why is there a BIG difference between a player tp and the ranking? Sorry if I kinda offended anyone here....

Kinji wrote:

um, well, i am really confused with the new system, but why is there a BIG difference between a player tp and the ranking? Sorry if I kinda offended anyone here....

Don't worry, asking as question shouldn't offend anyone.
tp and pp while being more similar now are still very different. Especially in lower ranks, since tp was neither able to obtain information about sub-top50 scores nor designed for casual players in the lower rankings. You can look at tp for a general guideline of how much your scores are worth, but that's about it. Don't expect the two systems to overlap too much.

I just played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/263384&m=0 on Nogard for the first time and passed it, and lost 4pp. Is there any particular reason for that?

Thx, but if its like that, then what is the algorithm or method that the new pp system is running by? Its by calculating all your scores right? Isn't that a advantage for old players that have played alot more beatmaps than the new players? Or is it using a similar system as osu!tp? Because osu!tp is calculating the player aim, speed and accuracy, which is the closest to calculating the skill of the players.....?

Well, still the pp are bad.

Mazzerin wrote:

I just played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/263384&m=0 on Nogard for the first time and passed it, and lost 4pp. Is there any particular reason for that?

Probably the system updating

this system seems semi messed up. i mean in all honesty the person with the most #1's should be #1 not someone who has a few #1's on some retarded maps, i mean this was proven yesterday 1 person 20 #1's and 8k pp, this system is super flawed

Mazzerin wrote:

I just played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/263384&m=0 on Nogard for the first time and passed it, and lost 4pp. Is there any particular reason for that?

You can't lose pp by getting a completely new score - that is by passing a map you never passed before. Everything is being reprocessed at the moment, so instabilities like this may occur for a short while. Did you maybe have a NoFail pass on the map before? That one might have been considered better.

HandHeldPillow wrote:

this system seems semi messed up. i mean in all honesty the person with the most #1's should be #1 not someone who has a few #1's on some retarded maps, i mean this was proven yesterday 1 person 20 #1's and 8k pp, this system is super flawed

If I would present you with a system where players are strictly ranked by amount of #1s, then believe me, you wouldn't be happy about it. Or do you support farming easy diffs with all possible mods all day?

HandHeldPillow wrote:

this system seems semi messed up. i mean in all honesty the person with the most #1's should be #1 not someone who has a few #1's on some retarded maps, i mean this was proven yesterday 1 person 20 #1's and 8k pp, this system is super flawed

HandHeldPillow wrote:

the person with the most #1's should be #1

I hope this a sincere troll. By your logic, if I went and got the most #1's on easy maps, I should be #1 world? Please.

i don't like it :'(
To get more pp i must pass and read insane
But thats what i can't!!
Iam on Hard + HD so Insane needs to long!
So i must give up my Rank

Well thats the rank you deserve if you can't do the insanes.

...

i dont believe that farming easy and normals should not reward pp at higher levels, but i do believe that hards should be taken account and give some (not as much as ppv1 but some) pp, in the current state it seems that i have to become a circle clicking god to gain ranks, sadly my asian levels have not hit 9000 yet

HandHeldPillow wrote:

i dont believe that farming easy and normals should not reward pp at higher levels, but i do believe that hards should be taken account and give some (not as much as ppv1 but some) pp, in the current state it seems that i have to become a circle clicking god to gain ranks, sadly my asian levels have not hit 9000 yet

Hards still do give a considerable amount of pp - if your best scores consist of hards or worse. You seem to already have climbed up to some Insanes. A ranking system, that tries to tell people how good they are shouldn't reward you a lot for playing maps that are more or less easy for you. Farming is not a bad thing and actually already built in for your first few thousand scores, but with 20,000 plays this has already more or less come to a halt for you.

NaThaNeL wrote:

i don't like it :'(
To get more pp i must pass and read insane
But thats what i can't!!
Iam on Hard + HD so Insane needs to long!
So i must give up my Rank

HandHeldPillow wrote:

i dont believe that farming easy and normals should not reward pp at higher levels, but i do believe that hards should be taken account and give some (not as much as ppv1 but some) pp, in the current state it seems that i have to become a circle clicking god to gain ranks, sadly my asian levels have not hit 9000 yet

If you want ranks, you need to get better. You don't need to be Cookiezi to make your rank higher than it is, you just need to be better than you are right now.

Constantly gaining rank for doing what you always do is exactly what farming is. If you no longer gain rank from what you are doing, the system is telling you that it is time to bite the bullet and improve.

If you don't need to improve to increase rank, what's the point of it?

I think there could be a separate ranking to Speed, Accuracy and Aim, instead of only for Score and overall Performance. You can already calculate each of them, right? It would help give people a notion to what they should improve and what they can already do.

Tom94 wrote:

You can't lose pp by getting a completely new score - that is by passing a map you never passed before. Everything is being reprocessed at the moment, so instabilities like this may occur for a short while. Did you maybe have a NoFail pass on the map before? That one might have been considered better.

Don't you think No Fail and Slow passes should be left out? I mean, I don't even know why they're ranked in the first place, but allowing these to give pps just makes things even messier.

I really think that having the speed, acc and aim thing here as well will help every player to know what they lack and how to improve, since tp and pp now are really like each other whenever i want to farm pp i'd go to tp and see what gives me points and the most important thing, WHY it gives me points (high speed, aim etc) and that way i'm recognizing the 'training' i'm doing to increase my ranking. (And with this i mean we should be able to see that here too, it's not a big deal but since maps are calculated in another way here, there is a difference from what we're seeing on osutp.net and what we would be seeing here)

I'm sorry if explain myself like a retard but well, i tried.



Also i guess this would be dealed with when the wiki comes so it's not like things like this aren't planned, just saying.

FlameseeK wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

You can't lose pp by getting a completely new score - that is by passing a map you never passed before. Everything is being reprocessed at the moment, so instabilities like this may occur for a short while. Did you maybe have a NoFail pass on the map before? That one might have been considered better.

Don't you think No Fail and Slow passes should be left out? I mean, I don't even know why they're ranked in the first place, but allowing these to give pps just makes things even messier.

Not at all, see this hypothetical example, there is a long song with 1000 notes (fc) and 220 bpm, which has a long stream at the end. Player 1 can't stream at that speed, so he plays with NF, and gets a 90% acc 600 combo score, player 2 can barely stream at that speed, and gets a 75% acc 300 combo score, without mods. At least, if you ask me, Player 1 deserves more pp, by far, and that score shouln't be left out.

ChaosVictor wrote:

I think there could be a separate ranking to Speed, Accuracy and Aim, instead of only for Score and overall Performance. You can already calculate each of them, right? It would help give people a notion to what they should improve and what they can already do.

And when the more important stuff is settled, a place where you can see all your contributing maps and their scores.

HandHeldPillow wrote:

i dont believe that farming easy and normals should not reward pp at higher levels, but i do believe that hards should be taken account and give some (not as much as ppv1 but some) pp, in the current state it seems that i have to become a circle clicking god to gain ranks, sadly my asian levels have not hit 9000 yet

What you're basically asking for here is for an increase in rank without an increase in skill. This is exactly why the old ranking system was removed. If you don't like your rank - improve as a player. If you don't want to improve as a player, accept the rank you have.

pold10 wrote:

Not at all, see this hypothetical example, there is a long song with 1000 notes (fc) and 220 bpm, which has a long stream at the end. Player 1 can't stream at that speed, so he plays with NF, and gets a 90% acc 600 combo score, player 2 can barely stream at that speed, and gets a 75% acc 300 combo score, without mods. At least, if you ask me, Player 1 deserves more pp, by far, and that score shouln't be left out.

Wasn't nofail only going to give a 0.05x score decrease? I think this is better, since there are some maps that I can play quite fine until one part that I always fail. Being able to still get a reasonable score for doing well on the rest of the map should be fair.

Also, is the update live? If not when will it be?

What an incredible improvement ! Thank you, like this it seems really more relevant.

Two little suggestions :

* it would be nice if beside the ranks present in the 'top ranks' section of the user pages we could see the corresponding performance ratings, and by the way which mods were used.

* Currently if you get a record in a song where you already have records with a lower performance rating but with higher scores then your last record is not taken into account in the pp evaluation, which is pretty sad. It has been suggested to had a feature to intentionally delete previous plays but would'nt it be better simply if the record with the highest performance rating was the one to be taken into account ? Thus you could divide the scoreboards into two tabs : a main one with plays sorted by their performance rating and another with plays sorted by their score. If you pass a song and beat your previous scores but don't beat your best performance rating then the play will not be taken into account even for the second scoreboard, of course. Like this and not vice-versa would be fairer.

Sorry if I had not been clear enough and thank you again.

I dropped to 60000 from 30000, because I didn't play maps where I couldn't get top 1000 and farmed on normal maps instead, but after playing some of the hard maps I climbed 20000 ranks back up with maps that were a lot harder to play, so I guess it's working GJ (and I'm not rank 80000 like in tp -.-)

I would love an option to hide PP and ranking, as i wanna play for fun but it feels like its forcing me to compete

Tom94 wrote:

EvaRia wrote:

SPOILER

The problem with this concept, is that the people who play [hard] diffs, old maps or top-tier maps are very different and therefore the data we have to analyze will also be different. This was one of the main issues of previous pp iterations, making [hard] and old maps being weighted much more, because statistically they seemed harder than they were since most of the good players didn't play them.

Well, keep in mind that what I'm proposing is a purely contextual metric.

I agree that as far as pure skill is involved, the difficulty of the map itself is the most relevant for determining skill level.

But since you're calculating primarily based on difficulty and not on context, where I'm proposing a metric based on context with no regard for difficulty, they could theoretically exist as different metrics right?

Even shoutouts to unique awesome plays (mostly for top tier players) would make things interesting.

"<NAME> is the first to achieve rank <RANK> or better using <MODS> on <BEATMAP> (<RANKING>)!"

I don't know how exactly it would be implemented right now, but as far as a ladder system or proper context frame goes, I feel like it would be better than whatever's currently popular. It gives a certain focus on undermining scores and record-hunting that I think would be neat to see. It would also be pretty dynamic, I think.

Unstable maps are played to get the score bonus, but as they get played they stabilize again. This leaves the more difficult maps that take much longer to stabilize lingering at the top of the chart and looking through it gives you a handy way of finding the most "relevant" leaderboards.

Maybe this doesn't work the way I imagine it would though?

What you're describing is somewhat dimilar to what the previous pp iterations tried to do and you've seen where it led to. Nobody has the time to play _all_ the overrated old / easy diffs to farm and make them "stable".
With a lot of work a system like that might be tuned to be somewhat correct, but from my past experiences (yes, I also tried those kind of things with tp to a small degree) it doubt it'd be feasible.

The shoutouts you mention are indeed very interesting, but that would be even harder to implement with the way scoring works at the moment.

Most of the older and easier maps are incredibly stable already. There's less, not more incentive to play them based on what I'm describing.

The incentive is to do better in maps that NOT stabilized.

This doesn't necessarily have to be part of the ppv2 algorithm but could be a way of building something like a dynamic chart consisting of the most relevant scoreboards.

I briefly looked through this thread and I didn't find a similar case, but I got a new top rank score according to both the tp and the ppv2 system. However, the thing that confuses me is that I did not gain any pp points for the run, though I gained quite a bit of tp points. The beatmap was SYNC.ART'S - Sins -Kokoro no Tsumi- under the nightmare difficulty.

My question is, why didn't it give me any pp for the run? I mean the accuracy was 99.06% with a full combo of 1087 and with the dt mod used. I have heard of several other players experiencing this, but I couldn't find an exact answer as to why this occurs.

Oh, and on a side note, why does it say that I'm rank 36 and not 34 for the beatmap?

EvaRia wrote:

Most of the older and easier maps are incredibly stable already. There's less, not more incentive to play them based on what I'm describing.

The incentive is to do better in maps that NOT stabilized.

This doesn't necessarily have to be part of the ppv2 algorithm but could be a way of building something like a dynamic chart consisting of the most relevant scoreboards.

I'm afraid I don't quite grasp what you call "unstable" then. Also note the word "most", that you have been using. The ranking system needs to be reliable on all maps - or more precisely: the worst-case error should be minimized. Single points of failure can easily spoil things.
If you can give me a detailed explanation of what you have in mind, then don't hestitate to send me some paragraphs per PM. I'm talking about precise definitions of what "unstable" would be and how the scores should be weighted according to it. I'm curious.

Nagashurai wrote:

I briefly looked through this thread and I didn't find a similar case, but I got a new top rank score according to both the tp and the ppv2 system. However, the thing that confuses me is that I did not gain any pp points for the run, though I gained quite a bit of tp points. The beatmap was SYNC.ART'S - Sins -Kokoro no Tsumi- under the nightmare difficulty.

My question is, why didn't it give me any pp for the run? I mean the accuracy was 99.06% with a full combo of 1087 and with the dt mod used. I have heard of several other players experiencing this, but I couldn't find an exact answer as to why this occurs.

Oh, and on a side note, why does it say that I'm rank 36 and not 34 for the beatmap?

Are you 100%ly sure, that your pp didn't change, or did it simply not display any change in-game? Because if it displays in your best-performance list, then it definitely gets included in the calculation for your pp value.

Regarding the rank 36 notification in your profile: Either it is connected to scores getting removed from said map after you achieved rank 36 (unlikely) or it is indeed a bug. That one doesn't have to do with pp and it would be great if you could report it as a bug in the appropriate subforum.

do approved maps give pp with ppv2?

Yes, I am positive that my pp did not change at all. I had my internet page up on my profile and updated it as soon as the score was made. I thought it would take a few hours to submit and take affect, so I waited the night and even played a couple of beatmaps today to see if it would update. my pp has remained at 4761 before and after the score was made.

I will go to a report forum about that other issue since it has occurred on several beatmaps for me now. Probably due to players that have had no activity for a while and the system still keeps their score or something.

Nagashurai wrote:

I briefly looked through this thread and I didn't find a similar case, but I got a new top rank score according to both the tp and the ppv2 system. However, the thing that confuses me is that I did not gain any pp points for the run, though I gained quite a bit of tp points. The beatmap was SYNC.ART'S - Sins -Kokoro no Tsumi- under the nightmare difficulty.

My question is, why didn't it give me any pp for the run? I mean the accuracy was 99.06% with a full combo of 1087 and with the dt mod used. I have heard of several other players experiencing this, but I couldn't find an exact answer as to why this occurs.

Oh, and on a side note, why does it say that I'm rank 36 and not 34 for the beatmap?

It's the same for me, I set 3 scores that would have given me a large amount of TP points, just now! Yet they didn't give me any pp at all, not even 1? This is probably a bug

Nagashurai wrote:

Yes, I am positive that my pp did not change at all. I had my internet page up on my profile and updated it as soon as the score was made. I thought it would take a few hours to submit and take affect, so I waited the night and even played a couple of beatmaps today to see if it would update. my pp has remained at 4761 before and after the score was made.

I will go to a report forum about that other issue since it has occurred on several beatmaps for me now. Probably due to players that have had no activity for a while and the system still keeps their score or something.

I took the time to download all your pp values, including your new score and ran the algorithm on everything. It outputs the exact tp, that you currently have. I double checked everything to be correct - even wrote the part of the algorithm that merges your scores to your total pp again on the fly.
This must be an error on your side.

Could This Be wrote:

It's the same for me, I set 3 scores that would have given me a large amount of TP points, just now! Yet they didn't give me any pp at all, not even 1? This is probably a bug

Just did the same for you - your pp value is also correctly considering all your scores.


I won't repeat this process for anyone who asks, please be careful before you say you are 100%ly sure.

Thank you for taking the time to calculate it out. I'll have to make a new record on a similar beatmap to find out for sure if this happens then.

Salvage wrote:

I really think that having the speed, acc and aim thing here as well will help every player to know what they lack and how to improve, since tp and pp now are really like each other whenever i want to farm pp i'd go to tp and see what gives me points and the most important thing, WHY it gives me points (high speed, aim etc) and that way i'm recognizing the 'training' i'm doing to increase my ranking.

This

the new pp system heavily weighted on jumps that makes tablet user's easier to get pp D:

Not sure if this fits here. But

this thing, seems to break at midnight.

Edit:

Seems like it's actually when using local ranking.

snosey wrote:

the new pp system heavily weighted on jumps that makes tablet user's easier to get pp D:

Why would it be harder to do jumps as a mouse user? The only thing that's easier for tablet is longer songs.

DemonHuntar wrote:

Not sure if this fits here. But

this thing, seems to break at midnight.

Edit:

Seems like it's actually when using local ranking.

Please report this here. It's not connected to the pp system.