Hai,

I'm going to talk about this RC...

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Diff Spread

- Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be Easy/Normal.
- The key amount of the hardest difficulty in your beatmap set must not be lower than the key amount of the easier difficulties. Single key amount beatmap set is not suitable for this rule.

For example:

(Let 4K be less key amount and 7K be high key amount)

4K Easy + 7K Insane: Accept
7K Easy + 4K Insane: Deny
4K Easy + 4K Hard + 7K Insane: Accept
7K Easy + 7K Hard + 4K Insane: Deny
4K Easy + 4K Insane + 7K Easy + 7K Insane: Accept

...which is complete BS.

The current rule allows mappers to make a mapset featuring different keycounts as long as the lesser keycount has the easiest diff whereas the highest keycount the highest diff. Which seems to make sense, but actually does not when you get to know the mode. 4K and 7K (I'll pick these as examples because they are the most played keycounts) are extremely different, and the current rule implies that 4K is easier to play than 7K, which might be true for a beginner, but later on, in Insane diffs, 4K usually turns out to be oriented towards density and reaction speed whereas 7K is mostly about reading difficult patterns, sometimes two or three at once.
Because these keycounts don't feature the same kind of gameplay at the end, you can't compare them and say that a lesser keycount is easier to play than higher keycounts.

Now that this has been said, having a mapset with 4K EZ, 5K NM, 6K HD and so on doesn't make sense, because there is no "transition" from a keycount to another. What I mean is that playing 5K won't teach you how to play 6K, and instead of having an increasing difficulty with each diff in the mapset, you have several individual difficulties unrelated to each other, despite being named EZ to MX or whatever. The first mapset which comes to mind is Wintersun for example (not trying to criticize the mapper. I love the 7K diff.) which is a good example of what I'm trying to point out (also http://osu.ppy.sh/s/114750). It also works the other way around : 7K only beginner/casual players have troubles finding diffs for their level.

Now what I suggest is, if you want to have 2 or more keycounts in a mapset, you'd have to make 2 diffs for each of them, preferably of similar level to keep a feeling of equality between different keycounts (5K NM + 5K MX with 8K NM + 8K MX for example). This is the same as treating different keycounts as different modes in the RC (2 diffs required for each mode in a mapset).
I.e. : https://osu.ppy.sh/s/119741

In short :
Treat each K as a game mode regarding the number of difficulties per mapset. Guest Difficulties are no exception to this rule.

I've also made a poll thread in the o!m subforum. Feel free to vote and argue there as well.

Yeah, this does make sense. I Don't understand why 4k EZ and 7k MX would be okay.

Nothing to say more as I have also brought that idea. As a 4K player I feel extremely left out whenever I see such mapsets as they make no sense whatsoever - Less keys does not mean less difficulty at all, and that's been said, FCing XK doesn't make you decent at (X+1)K.

Maps of n keys should be considered as a mode. Not a difficulty of osu!mania. 7K is a mode, 9K is a mode, 3K is a mode, 88K is a mode, but allowing such difficulties alone is like allowing an alone osu!/Taiko/CtB diff in a mapset.

Requirement of two diffs for each key set included in the map set for ranked? Similar to how taiko is when included in a standard mapset, makes sense.

Agreed, I've been saying that each key mode should be treated on it's own for a while now. I've met countless people willing to try to argue that 7k is inherently harder than 4k, and such.

No key mode deserves to be considered better (or worse) than any other.

Added a new example (http://osu.ppy.sh/s/114750). This mapset has been ranked recently, with 7K being the only hardest diff again.

Yeah. I played 4k lvl 12 and it was hard as hell. Meanwhile, I can do around 7k lvl 20~. I know level is subjective but the gameplay is different.

Full support too, I hate seeing mapsets like Wintersun - I play mainly 7K and there's no 7K diff I can pass in it.

Haha, I agree so much.
I'm a 7k player, and there are mapsets that only have 7K SHDs, but no easier 7K diffs, so as a rather casual and new player I kinda have troubles playing those songs. I mean, I can use HT, but meh.
An example would be Crack traxxxx.

If there is a rule change, one things to keep in mind is GDs. It should be made clear whether GDs are affected or not in the rule, just to ensure there's no confusion. Some RC rules are a bit vague on some stuff, and that's something to avoid.

If I remember correctly GDs are under the same rules as original mapper's diffs difficulty-spread-wise. The only differences between GDs and regular difficulties are timing-related (different preview point, etc...) I think.

I just re-read the RC related to mapsets, I smiled when I saw this since many mapsets (this includes other modes mapsets containing GDs) featuring 1 normal/1 insane don't follow this but are still ranked.

Rules for GDs are not very clear, and actually there doesn't seem to be any "special rules" for GDs (or I missed them). I don't see why GDs wouldn't be affected by this rule change if it were to be done.

Lone mania maps placed in a standard+* mapset => Can be allowed as it can be translated. So [Standard][Other modes][1x 4K][1x5K][1x7K] would be allowed.
Non-standard mapsets should follow the 2-diff spread rule.
[Taiko][1x4K][1x5K][2x7K] = Deny
[Taiko][2x4K][2x5K][2x7K] = Allow.

No, don't treat autoconverts as proper mania-maps. They suck.

PyaKura wrote:

No, don't treat autoconverts as proper mania-maps. They suck.

Agree.

I've been reading it and.. yes, currently it's the same situation as with the Mapsets in the past with one Taiko Difficulty (which has been mostly Onis and cannot be passed by worse player)

Support.

Completely reasonable.

Edited the OP so it looks cleaner and a bit more detailed.

Absolute support.

You can't learn 7K by playing 6K, can't learn 6K by playing 5K etc, just makes no sense. Not to mention that the majority of non-7K maps just seem to be beginner maps made to get a single 7K insane ranked.

Actually I don't think this is a good idea.

The reason is simple.

"Hey, I can't make only 1 diff for 4k/7k/6k/whatsoever. I don't think I can do my best to make a full spread so just forget about making 4k/7k/6k/whatsoever."

This is extremely common, because high-rated mappers don't like to make two maps nearly the same (Maybe having the same object count) except for some keys re-placed into different columns. And they think making a distinguished map is hard enough that it doesn't meet their quality standard despite of their hardwork.

In one word, that would drive away the mappers to make multi-key maps.

Addition:
Yeah, from players' side, it would always be happy to see more diffs. I believe you want 15 diffs in every map.
However, when mappers have to make a perfunctory (to suit such criteria or something else), the map quality would shrink dramatically.
In another word, when mappers goes ranking for ranking, things would go to hell.
I have to warn that this is already happening in taiko, and I actually see trends in osu!mania ranking maps when making easy diffs.

xxbidiao wrote:

Actually I don't think this is a good idea.

The reason is simple.

"Hey, I can't make only 1 diff for 4k/7k/6k/whatsoever. I don't think I can do my best to make a full spread so just forget about making 4k/7k/6k/whatsoever."

This is extremely common, because high-rated mappers don't like to make two maps nearly the same (Maybe having the same object count) except for some keys re-placed into different columns. And they think making a distinguished map is hard enough that it doesn't meet their quality standard despite of their hardwork.

In one word, that would drive away the mappers to make multi-key maps.

Addition:
Yeah, from players' side, it would always be happy to see more diffs. I believe you want 15 diffs in every map.
However, when mappers have to make a perfunctory (to suit such criteria or something else), the map quality would shrink dramatically.
In another word, when mappers goes ranking for ranking, things would go to hell.
I have to warn that this is already happening in taiko, and I actually see trends in osu!mania ranking maps when making easy diffs.

The main reason for such a change is to keep things equal between 7K and other K players. The issuevright now is that people somehow consider 4K (or 5K or 6K) to be inferior to 7K, which I don't believe it is the case. I'm not asking for 15 diffs per mapset (heck, with 2 keycounts the minimum would 4 diffs... you can't consider this tons of work mapping-wise), but forcing mappers (yes I did say "force mappers") to do as suggested in the original post would be making things go forward towards the "minorities" of the mania-community. When I see Crack traxxx, I can tell that the mapper has the skills to make an Insane 4K and easier 7K diffs. You can't deny the fact thatthe current rules are simply not fair right now.

Also I should not say this to you since you (and a lot of high-rated mappers) have much much more mapping experience than me, but rememher that mapping is not a "time-attack" thing nor a race to see who maps and ranks the fastest. Quality issues are not supposed to happen after receiving mods for your maps (as people currently do). You're not forced to make a full mapset "stands out" either. If the hardest diff is noteworthy it's often enough to make people notice your mapset as a whole.

Anyways thanks for your input, I was waiting for someone to countereact to this.

Actually I do think this should be a strong guideline, but not a forced rule.

I believe the intentions are good (You know, I'm a 4key mapper who found lack of 4key maps), but when you look at the original maps uploaded to osu! servers, you may realize people may treat this rule using negative ways making the osu!mania mapping community further from the good intentions.

Quality issues are not supposed to happen after receiving mods for your maps (as people currently do).

Sadly this is what the reality contradicts ideal things most.

Actually, making a high quality map, which is recognized by everyone, is extremely hard; but making a map which is just above the pass line is far easier.

Based on my experience modding maps and discussion to other mappers/modders, I found that mappers make the main difficulty which can represent their ultimate understanding of the music well, but their other diffs are in some cases just between playable and unplayable. In other communities, this nearly always lead to a complete rejection (Or to say, release only with main difficulties) - but modders are not tended to say so like "please remap", and the attitude of refusal instead of willing to help is discouraged. People will help to make such kind of map "playable", or to say, "without quality problems". And that's all. In another way, that's your teacher making your 59% mark to a 60%, making a F into D - but it's never A+.

What I was worried most is that when this rule do carries out, many mappers will tend to make an excellent high-level map binding with another lower-level one with just acceptable quality to pass the rule. That doesn't cost much time to mappers (I'll have to point out that this is NOT mappers being LAZY, in some cases they just need a reshuffle which can be finished in no time), but will harm the community in long run. When the minority of community see mappers just make perfunctory, what do they think? Poor things is even worse than nothing.

That's actually another fight between quantity and quality (Like what you have said, time vs quality.) In most other commercial/free games, we see quality comes in higher place (1 diff / easiest diff at high level because the song fits) and they do achieve good reputation. Where the growing osu!mania community do need quantity, quality should be emphasized.

This feels similar to the spirit of the osu! standard rule concerning difficulty spread, and xxbidiao's reply kind of mirrors what's going on in the approval length requirement: It's too much work, and mappers don't want to do it. To me, this is a poor counter-argument compared to giving the focus of a map set the light via ranking if it at least shows that it is trying to include as many different players as possible. The opening post has pretty much set down -why- this is a problem. If you're having that much difficulty giving yourself the motivation to see your mapset to the end for ranking, try asking others for help. It's nothing new to outsource difficulties in the other modes, and I've seen guest maps make it into osu!m maps as well.

Garven wrote:

This feels similar to the spirit of the osu! standard rule concerning difficulty spread, and xxbidiao's reply kind of mirrors what's going on in the approval length requirement: It's too much work, and mappers don't want to do it. To me, this is a poor counter-argument compared to giving the focus of a map set the light via ranking if it at least shows that it is trying to include as many different players as possible. The opening post has pretty much set down -why- this is a problem. If you're having that much difficulty giving yourself the motivation to see your mapset to the end for ranking, try asking others for help. It's nothing new to outsource difficulties in the other modes, and I've seen guest maps make it into osu!m maps as well.

I guess you will say "mappers are TOO LAZY to do XXX" - That's what I have foreseen, and I have just explained in my posts.

xxbidiao wrote:

(I'll have to point out that this is NOT mappers being LAZY, in some cases they just need a reshuffle which can be finished in no time)

When you try to look into everything with "LAZY" label, everything seems to have a "good" explanation.

But I suggest you throw out the "LAZY" colored glass and look into some other aspects of the community, which I would warn you later.

Mappers are never TOO LAZY. When they consider ranking, they are ready to make their maps best and put considerable effort on it - but putting such rules doesn't help making their maps better.

If you even try to dig into the taiko community, you would know an interesting fact: people tend to play unranked maps rather than ranked ones, leaving the leaderboard full of map reciters and DS cheaters. But why?

When talking to many high-tier taiko mappers and players, I finally realized why they prefer unranked maps far more than ranked ones.
Because of the "conservative" ranking system (That's the exact word I have heard from some mappers), they will have to throw their creative mind away and do blotters instead. They just copy and paste their patterns, making repeatable patterns, and make a map that suits everything. Guess what happens next? "Wow the song is good! The map is reasonable I think it will go rank in no time." Players are happy because they have a map that is not identical and are easy for them to recite and to HD+FL them, mappers are happy because they have their map ranked. And no one cares about quality of maps. The results is although osu!taiko seems to have a lot of maps, but their overall quality is lower than community like Taiko Jiro emulator charts, which have nearly no moderation at all, according to many player's critic.

And yeah, this is already happening in osu!mania. Many mappers already regard osu!mania overall mapping quality as "dull" - Only the songs are good, the maps are of lower quality than expected.

Back to this topic, why do I say this would not benefit osu!mania so much, to an extent that you expect?

Yes, exactly - blotter.

I have explained how trend of blotter (or to say, perfunctory) would ruin the community in the former post.

Now it's a simple question: Would you like to enforce mappers to make a bunch of "maps between unplayable and playable" to "suit everyone's need" regardless of quality, or to let them concentrate on how they can make better maps?

Addition: Regarding the need of more maps in different key amounts, Actually there are already far more 7key mappers than 4key ones. Not regarding these new-born ones, but actually the old ones who have experience on other music game chart making. This is a historical problem, maybe caused by conversions more biased in 7key. But to force mappers make more maps is definitely not a good idea when overall map quality would drop.

And actually, 10~20 great maps can leave a player play a certain music game, but a bunch of average ones can't. When players want to practice themselves and find that every map is the same boring as others because of blotters, it would be sad.

xxbidiao wrote:

Addition: Regarding the need of more maps in different key amounts, Actually there are already far more 7key mappers than 4key ones. Not regarding these new-born ones, but actually the old ones who have experience on other music game chart making. This is a historical problem, maybe caused by conversions more biased in 7key. But to force mappers make more maps is definitely not a good idea when overall map quality would drop.

I'm certain there as as many 4k mappers as 7k, but only the latter ones are going forward. I'm certain 5 and 6k mappers exist as well but never try at all. If you look closely you'll see many stepmania players (Xay, Samwais, kjwkjw, Staiain, Kommisar, Halogen- and me for example) who do play on FFR, some of them charting as well.
I've played Standard->7K->4K conversions and if you tell your 7K conversions are biased, the 4K are just utter shit, I'm almost puking at some of them.
Mappers give a cliché about 4K players, putting 4K lower and 7K higher implicitly means 4K are weaker and 7K are stronger, which is not the case. (Maybe I'm deviating atm but I'll just post that)

The problem here is about the keyspreads that disregards different keys players, because they use only one type of difficulty or even one only, which is currently a problem as different keys doesn't mean a different difficulty, it's a different way to play -- that is, a keycount is mode on itself (trust me good as I am in 4K I wouldn't have problems to FC a fucking EZ in 7K if it were the case.)