Blue Dragon wrote:

Also, this seems like a shameless attempt from "boohoo FL sucks" "pro"-players to remove HD+FL from all scoreboards, because it will be completely impossible on most maps.

FLHD will work exactly as it did before. You still have to memorize the map.

Besides what's the problem if this is added as a toggle a.la. same style as DT/NC and SD/PF? People who like old HD can use old HD, people who want new HD use new HD, both have same multiplier of 1.06.

new HD should have a higher multiplier for HDFL then
following sliders with FL is ok, nothing so hard but FL with this new hd... you simply doesn't know where to go lol this is unfair
again, sliders with weird shape will be impossible to follow
memorizing notes placement is easier than memorizing shapes
you just need to go straight to the next note. for sliders you need to know exactly where you're going, aka it will be even harder
if this is added as a new mod it is ok.

[Luanny] wrote:

you simply doesn't know where to
again, sliders with weird shape will be impossible to follow

Let me say this again

learn to read ticks

they give you an indication of where to move the same way as circles do
I will have no problem following the weirdest sliders on shotgun symphony+ with this HD style because I can simply plan the movement on their ticks and it's easy as hell.
For somebody who has no trouble reading sliders, this HD isn't any harder than regular HD, thus it should have the exact same multiplier. This HD is more convenient in dealing with stacks under sliders as well as dealing with consistency of AR, neither of which is a real difficulty, it's more like fake difficulty that is - right now - solved by grinding/memorization and this style of HD would allow to remove this memorization aspect and allow people to enjoy HD in the true spirit of the mod (which is short-term planning ahead).

it would certainly be fun just to try it out, on the test build perhaps.

Aqo wrote:

[Luanny] wrote:

you simply doesn't know where to
again, sliders with weird shape will be impossible to follow

Let me say this again

learn to read ticks

they give you an indication of where to move the same way as circles do
I will have no problem following the weirdest sliders on shotgun symphony+ with this HD style because I can simply plan the movement on their ticks and it's easy as hell.
For somebody who has no trouble reading sliders, this HD isn't any harder than regular HD, thus it should have the exact same multiplier. This HD is more convenient in dealing with stacks under sliders as well as dealing with consistency of AR, neither of which is a real difficulty, it's more like fake difficulty that is - right now - solved by grinding/memorization and this style of HD would allow to remove this memorization aspect and allow people to enjoy HD in the true spirit of the mod (which is short-term planning ahead).

why am i so angry [nogard].

the ending.

okay, all of your arguments are invalid, you can lock this thread now.

.

BRBP wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

why am i so angry [nogard].

the ending.

okay, all of your arguments are invalid, you can lock this thread now.

.

Ok, one of your unranked maps has sliders that aren't sight readable with this new mod (but are with FL ). Let's not make any changes to the game because of that.

He is trying to say that speedsliders (such in his map and many other APPROVED maps) would make this mod much horrific. Probably making maps much harder for the wrong reason.

I was talking about HDFL.
js.
btw good luck on playing that Usatei map HDFL
those sliders... hue

pretty much ANY ranked map with tick rate 1 and fast sliders is completely impossible, lol

oh btw forgot to say
tick DOES NOT give enough indication of how the slider shape is
you can have a curvy slider and follow it like a straight line (again talking about HDFL)
you may break it lel
how do we even see the ticks with FL when the sv is high?
sliders are meant to be followed, not to be hidden.

could you have a smart scoring system in place to give you an extra 0.1x multiplyer ontop of the 0.6x for hidden if both hd+fl are selected? this would show reflect the difficuty of the multiple mods. that end in nastyness. however if this where to happen old high scores on easy maps could be decimated by additional 0.1x multiplier.

@ Luanny & BD: Yeah what. So you say HD gets harder. And? Problem? Doesn't it make way more sense if the sliders where fading? Just take a look at the picture in the OP. I mean, some maps are nearly impossible to HR, why shouldn't there be maps which are nearly impossible to HD?

I changed my mind, you're right. I can't do hd and I can't do fl so let's make them both harder for everyone.

I'm serious +1

support, as long as reverse arrows stay visible.

Blue Dragon wrote:

why am i so angry [nogard].

the ending.

okay, all of your arguments are invalid, you can lock this thread now.

.

Guess what BD
I played your map
Those sliders are easy as hell to read with ticks
This style of HD won't make them any harder at all
stop being bad at reading sliders
your arguments are invalid kthxbye

BRBP wrote:

Ok, one of your unranked maps has sliders that aren't sight readable blah blah

NO, STOP

it's readable

gosh you guys are so bad

Blue Dragon wrote:

pretty much ANY ranked map with tick rate 1 and fast sliders is completely impossible, lol

That's because tick rate 1 on a map that's mapped with 1/2s and not 1/1s is fcking stupid and it should be unrankable because it's impossible to even read that nomod.

And with that said, sliders with tick rate 1 only require you to be on the slider body on every 1/1 (where the tick is) and you can go out and dance around all you want between them, so even on those, you can just follow the ticks and still FC them.

[Luanny] wrote:

oh btw forgot to say
tick DOES NOT give enough indication of how the slider shape is

yes they do
you don't really have to follow slider shapes, you only need to follow their ticks.
that weird slider in the end of talent shredder? ticks tell you exactly how to follow it.
those weird shellfish sliders on airman? ticks tell you exactly how to follow them
lern2sliders pls

[Luanny] wrote:

talking about HDFL
you may break it lel
how do we even see the ticks with FL when the sv is high?
sliders are meant to be followed, not to be hidden.

FL is a memorization mod. If something is unreadable on FL, it's not a problem, because guess what, FL is ALREADY unreadable.

akronicillness wrote:

could you have a smart scoring system in place to give you an extra 0.1x multiplyer ontop of the 0.6x for hidden if both hd+fl are selected?

no no no no no
this is completely unnecessary
this doesn't need any special multipliers at all
scoring-wise this should be the EXACT SAME as current hidden, since it reads the exact same except you can't be lazy on sliders anymore

Just make it a drag-over mod with the same multiplier and then I don't see what the problem is? people who cry "unreadable sliders" can still use old HD and get the exact same score as always and as anybody else, and people who know how to read sliders and don't want to deal with the annoyance of under-slider-stacks can use this new HD and read the full map HD-style (and not just the circles) and in return avoid the memorization aspect which is befitting of FL and not HD.

Aqo wrote:

FL is a memorization mod. If something is unreadable on FL, it's not a problem, because guess what, FL is ALREADY unreadable.

I don't like FL so let's make it difficult for people who like it UAEHUAEHEAUHEAUHEAUEA

aqo logic

Blue Dragon wrote:

Aqo wrote:

FL is a memorization mod. If something is unreadable on FL, it's not a problem, because guess what, FL is ALREADY unreadable.

I don't like FL so let's make it difficult for people who like it UAEHUAEHEAUHEAUHEAUEA

aqo logic

Except how does this make anything harder if you can still use the old HD, which means IT PLAYS EXACTLY THE SAME?

Just because it's possible to Nightcore maps now it doesn't mean you're not allowed to use old DT anymore.

~ updated the topic title, just for you BD ~

I wouldn't mind if it were a toggle. What would it be called though? Hidden+?

Oh and to make a sidepoint about tick theory. People are allowed to mute slider ticks. They aren't always readable. but this point doesn't matter if it's a drag toggle.

Again, if this works like nightcore and perfect it is ok as long as its multiplier is higher when using FL.
Ok, now with this new OP I support the idea.

[Luanny] wrote:

its multiplier is higher when using FL.

but why

i can see the argument from both sides. i would prefer for a higher multiplyer for this however i dont think it would be practical to impliment. as i said in my other post high scores would be decimated from this new mod. yes i makes it harder but if you dont like it dont play it.

Aqo wrote:

[Luanny] wrote:

its multiplier is higher when using FL.

but why

It will remove every last bit of readability that FL has currently. For reference, try watching Auto play basically any stream map and see if you can see anything - then compare it to the sliders in the same map. Especially on 200 combo +, you won't be able to see much of the streams. If we apply this to sliders, the same impossibility of reading will be applied to the sliders as well, which will make a FL+HD FC much, much harder to do.
This applies more to slower maps rather than fast ones, but aren't those the ones people usually FL+HD anyway?

In any case, I'd want to see this in the game for the lols it'd provide, but only as an optional flip-over behaviour with no benefits over playing normal HD.

akronicillness wrote:

high scores would be decimated from this new mod.

That's the main reason that multiplier for it should be the same as old HD and not higher. Giving it higher would mean it would wreck all the rankings.

If people want to FLHD, they should either use the old HD or deal with the difficulty of the new HD if they choose to use it. FL is a memorization mod anyway.

You guys should look at it the other way round. Try to imagine fading sliders were already implemented and now some suggests to remove them because "they are too hard with FL". Would you really support it?

That's really cool.

Tshemmp wrote:

You guys should look at it the other way round. Try to imagine fading sliders were already implemented and now some suggests to remove them because "they are too hard with FL". Would you really support it?

No you're wrong this is a stupid point.

[Luanny] wrote:

Again, if this works like nightcore and perfect it is ok as long as its multiplier is higher when using FL.
Ok, now with this new OP I support the idea.

A higher multiplier is also a stupid point but I assume this is just a sarcastic remark to make everyone realise how retarded this would be.

Interesting idea, seems like a lot of people are in favor of this. Although I myself don't see the necessity of it. It would be nice to have the option to toggle it, although it would most likely be a one time thing that less than half of the players would bother with anyway.

i dont think it would need a higher multiplier on FL. i agree with aqo there, FL is already a memorization mod. the normal HD doesnt give increased multiplier with FL either when its exponentially more difficult than without FL

I think that... all slider must to be visible, so I think that idea can work if was only a esthetic purpose and slider works in this way > While you are following the slider the part that you already have passed with cursor fade out. And for the reverse arrow, The process is just the reverse of it, the part that you need follow back appears again

I agree with this request. Hidden Sliders how they are at the moment aren't really consistent with how the hidden mod works. They can't be hidden if they are still able to be seen.

big big yeah!!!
support!

pls

I need this

Aqo wrote:

Right now sliders are inconsistent with HD. This makes this mod frustrating and have a level of memorization involved contrary to the purpose of this mod (which is short term memory, being based on seeing objects as soon as they appear and planning ahead how to play, and NOT long term memory like FL where you memorize the map).

HD and FL are the two mods where you play with "hidden objects" in FL you have to memorize the map, and with HD you have to be able to read the objects and know the rythm of these above or below others. Some players have the skill to read well the entire beatmap with HD mod, but not ALL players can fc it at the first try, and if you're not good with hd, then have to practice and even "memorize" where will appear the coming objects.

And I think if this will add to osu!, all the players will play with the new feature, and the old one method will only stay there. Why? because will be more easy pass the beatmaps with HD using this, and "remove the layer of memorization from hd!?" What? for me would be like the visual area of FL doesn't get small with 100 and 200 combo. Almost cheating

/out

Hidden isn't supposed to be memorization though

Totally supporting this !!

she wrote:

Hidden isn't supposed to be memorization though

And Easy isn't supposed to be the hardest mod.

Zexous wrote:

she wrote:

Hidden isn't supposed to be memorization though

And Easy isn't supposed to be the hardest mod.

OHOHOHO he rekt yo shet

On-topic: I wonder how repeats would work, but I guess this would be a nice touch to hidden mod. :-)

Adding this would require a huuge overhaul to the graphics engine to draw sliders. I'm also not sure it's even possible to make work without introducing graphics errors on sharply turning sliders. It would also add a performance hit similar to having sliders snake at all times.

On top of that, it would make the game harder, making old scores more difficult to beat than they were to make. Allowing to turn it off would defeat the purpose. Adding an extra score multiplier would make it unfair to old scores and potentially introduce serious balance issues.

mm201 wrote:

Adding this would require a huuge overhaul to the graphics engine to draw sliders. I'm also not sure it's even possible to make work without introducing graphics errors on sharply turning sliders. It would also add a performance hit similar to having sliders snake at all times.

On top of that, it would make the game harder, making old scores more difficult to beat than they were to make. Allowing to turn it off would defeat the purpose. Adding an extra score multiplier would make it unfair to old scores and potentially introduce serious balance issues.

- Overhaul to graphics engine: Well, this will certainly require some coding, but it's not impossible and I can't imagine it being that hard with some shader usage.
- Higher performance requirement: It's 2013. 99% of the people's PCs can carry. And those who can't, will just play with old HD.
- Make the game harder / unfair to old scores: The suggestion is a toggle akin to DT/NC. It would still be possible to play with old HD.
- Allowing to turn it off would defeat the purpose: Nope. The purpose is to give players a choice for sightreadable Hidden at the cost of overall-harder Hidden. Players who still want to use old-HD to farm a map and get extra 6% on it will still be able to do it, while players who want to enjoy HD for the actual design of the mod without having to worry about stacks in the map will also be able to do this now on all maps and not only on maps without stacking.
- Extra score multiplier: Nah, don't. This style of HD should give exactly the same score as original HD, same as DT/NC. Using either one would give no actual advantage or imbalance, it would just be a different style for different styles of player preferences.

I don't see how this would make sightreading easier. For that, there's already the Snaking Sliders option that causes the beginning of a slider to appear first.

YayMii wrote:

I don't see how this would make sightreading easier. For that, there's already the Snaking Sliders option that causes the beginning of a slider to appear first.

The issue at hand here is stacks that are hidden under sliders, others seem to be arguing about reading sliders themselves but I personally think adding this would make reading sliders harder.

Yeah uh. Is this dead?

aka bump

This would be the equivalent of forcing all players to have snaking sliders turned on, plus an extra pass. I believe a lot of people have this disabled due to bad graphics card drivers, so I'm not sure how feasible this is. It makes sense, looks right, but technically it's quite a feat to achieve.

Aqo has said this a lot of time: that fade-in slider is optional. They can choose whether to have such fade-in slider or not by selecting appropriate mod.

With that said, FadeIn mod (which is only available for osu!mania) can be used as the new mod toggle for osu!standard mode and including this fade-in slider effect into this mod, while keeping the default behavior under Hidden mod.

If I implemented it, it wouldn't be optional. Just sayin'.

I've always thought that slider behaviour could be improved for the mod,so this I'd definitely like to see.

peppy wrote:

If I implemented it, it wouldn't be optional. Just sayin'.

Even when I agree with you I'm not sure about how this would affect mod balance, not that it's actually any good right now tho.

peppy wrote:

This would be the equivalent of forcing all players to have snaking sliders turned on, plus an extra pass.

peppy wrote:

If I implemented it, it wouldn't be optional. Just sayin'.

Just to clarify: did you mean that if this is implemented, the snaking slider will be a permanent part of HD? Or were you talking about the performance hit only?

Oinari-sama wrote:

peppy wrote:

This would be the equivalent of forcing all players to have snaking sliders turned on, plus an extra pass.

peppy wrote:

If I implemented it, it wouldn't be optional. Just sayin'.

Just to clarify: did you mean that if this is implemented, the snaking slider will be a permanent part of HD? Or were you talking about the performance hit only?

I hardly think that a drastic visual change would be optional.

Oinari-sama wrote:

Would be nice to keep the slider ball though...

This. The concept image lacks a slider ball (and follow circle) and some sort of visual feedback is needed. In current Hidden, circles already provide visual feedback with 300/100/50/X hitbursts on click. What better for the slider than the slider ball?

In terms of performance, this would definitely be a huge strain. Unless you think simple and instead of a "collapsing-bridge" fade effect, use a sort of Flashlight effect "illuminating the path ahead". It would definitely alleviate any complexity associated with reversing sliders, though the idea sounds cheap.

If it was implemented, it wouldn't be a huge performance drain because it would be performant. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be implemented.