is making storyboard / skin or looking for mods considered as contribute to mapset?
forum
[Guideline] Mapset accountability
posted
Total Posts
122
Topic Starter
No. This only takes mapped difficulties into accounts, all modes together.Scorpiour wrote:
is making storyboard / skin or looking for mods considered as contribute to mapset?
wmfchris: this is going to be a rule because as a guideline it might as well be entirely removed. As for your marathon example, that's why I wanted to only take into account how many difficulties the uploader participated in instead of taking total drain time. If needed, I can simply state that collaborations are the only exception to this rule, or that the uploader must participate in at least one difficulty, and everyone will be happy. Collaborations aren't the problem this is trying to fix.
And you're saying that draining time and stuff is stupid, but in your own suggestions you take that into account. Your idea is ridiculously complicated - this was aimed at making this entire rule simpler because, worded as it is, it is very hard to understand.
Get on an agreement on collaborations. If you can't reach an agreement on wording by Saturday, I will stick with this one:
No guest mapper is allowed to have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. Collaborations are the only exception to this rule. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.And then you can make a guideline with your complicated idea to deal with them.
I think that should beScorpiour wrote:
is making storyboard / skin or looking for mods considered as contribute to mapset?
for example
Diff A: [Mapper A 1:30] + [Mapper B 1:20] + [Mapper C 1:00]wee can see, Mapper A maps only 20 seconds more than Mapper B, but we all know it costs a lot of time for storyboarder to make especially a COOL storyboard, i'm sure this contribution worth 20s' mapping, it maybe unfair if we only stiffly caculate the draining time of all mappers
Diff B: [Mapper A 1:30] + [Mapper B 1:20] + [Mapper D 1:00]
Storyboard: [Mapper B 3:50]
Total: Mapper A (3:00) > Mapper B (2:40) > Mapper C&D (1:00)
1) The hardness of quantifying contribution makes the judgement on the valid uploader by draining time mapped is stupid --- and my numerical suggestion is drawing a clear cut line if and only if, the statement is still trying to measure contribution using length mapped --- in a much reasonable way. Yes it iis complicated. No you can't avoid that one without making the rule with potential problems.Shiro wrote:
No. This only takes mapped difficulties into accounts, all modes together.Scorpiour wrote:
is making storyboard / skin or looking for mods considered as contribute to mapset?
wmfchris: this is going to be a rule because as a guideline it might as well be entirely removed. As for your marathon example, that's why I wanted to only take into account how many difficulties the uploader participated in instead of taking total drain time. If needed, I can simply state that collaborations are the only exception to this rule, or that the uploader must participate in at least one difficulty, and everyone will be happy. Collaborations aren't the problem this is trying to fix.
And you're saying that draining time and stuff is stupid, but in your own suggestions you take that into account. Your idea is ridiculously complicated - this was aimed at making this entire rule simpler because, worded as it is, it is very hard to understand.
Get on an agreement on collaborations. If you can't reach an agreement on wording by Saturday, I will stick with this one:No guest mapper is allowed to have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. Collaborations are the only exception to this rule. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.And then you can make a guideline with your complicated idea to deal with them.
2) Looking at your statement:
No guest mapper is allowed to have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. Collaborations are the only exception to this rule. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.And that's why the statement shall remains at guidelines if it validates. Ignoring contribution from other perspective is not making sense, and the main contributor is not yours to judge but within the team of mappers unless it is obvious.
Guidelines are not to be ignored. They are supposed to be enforced unless the exception happens. In such a case the exception is that the main contributor is not obvious, then this shall be done upon mappers' agreement.
In the example that OniJam proposed, I will be fine if either mapper A or B becomes the uploader.
I'm still vouching for 1/X where X is the ammount of mappers in the dif, easier to check, and any mod that notices some notable difference when playing the diffs in terms of content will point it out.
I also agree that we could add Marathons as an exception to this rule (like ammount of diffs and diff spread). But mapper should have need to have participated somewhat on it still (at least in a portion of 1 collab diff)
I also agree that we could add Marathons as an exception to this rule (like ammount of diffs and diff spread). But mapper should have need to have participated somewhat on it still (at least in a portion of 1 collab diff)
I want to create a marathon. I find the song, time it, all that stuff, and then divide the song into parts and let people claim parts. I will take the last parts myself, so that everyone can have the parts they want. My contribution (in drain time) is less than some of the mappers. Is this mapset then not mine, and unrankable by this then? Because in the end, it's still me that's organizing it, timing it, finding the song, and it's still me who wanted to make a collab marathon in the first place.Loctav wrote:
Exactly like thisRei Hakurei wrote:
@Loctav: like this?Diff A: [Creator 1:00] + [Mapper A 2:15]
Diff B: [Creator 1:00] + [Mapper B 1:10] + [Mapper C 1:05]
Diff C: [Creator 1:00] + [Mapper D 1:05] + [Mapper E 1:10]
Total: Creator (3:00) > Other Mapper that Contributes Most (2:15)
it looks better
Where Creator must not be > but must be >=
So
TOTAL: Creator (x:xx) >= other mapper that contributed most (y:yy)
Which is why I'm still against this as a general rule anyway, because this might also apply for mapsets that aren't collabs. Turning down guest diffs just because of this rule would be one of the silliest things to do ever. And in the end, it's still a mapset I want to do, and not the guest mappers. Because someone wants to contribute to my mapset, and that happens to be mapping more than I have, then great, more stuff! That doesn't make the mapset his though.
Also, you can't make this as a rule and only take into account the notes mapped in the map itself, beause you're talking about the "mapset"; this includes timing, bg, storyboard, mp3, custom hitsounds, managing the set, organizing and whatever else you can come up with. And most of all, who among the guest mappers and the uploader feels like the creator.
Something like this should only really be necessary if there is a dispute amongst the different mappers within a mapset; when all participants of the set agree on who the mapset creator is, then no silly rule or BATs or whatever should be able to tell you that "no this is not your mapset, screw you".
Topic Starter
This draft is only trying to fix what the previous rule was trying to setup. The main contribution wasn't decided by me. I am fixing the wording.
If you want to make a different rule for collaborations, go ahead. This isn't what I am trying to fix. I stand by my point. If you reach no agreement about collaborations by Saturday, I will validate this wording:
CXu: if someone has mapped more difficulties of the mapset than you, the mapset is theirs. This rule still allows guest diff bundles.
If you want to make a different rule for collaborations, go ahead. This isn't what I am trying to fix. I stand by my point. If you reach no agreement about collaborations by Saturday, I will validate this wording:
No guest mapper is allowed to have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. Collaborations are the only exception to this rule. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.You guys are arguing about collaborations and it's not the main point of this rule. Make a new thread, it would be much better.
CXu: if someone has mapped more difficulties of the mapset than you, the mapset is theirs. This rule still allows guest diff bundles.
previous guidelineShiro wrote:
previous rule
Oh well guess you guys arent even reading my suggestions :<
Only my first paragraph was about collaborations.
Okay, I create a map, make an easy difficulty, and upload it through BSS. Then I get mappers who wants to create guest diffs for me. They provide a normal and hard, and one of them also maps an insane. Should I then just say "nope" and discard that mappers work, just because of this rule? That's not something I would want to do, ever. So suddenly that mapset is the guest mappers map, and not mine, greeeaaat... Not. It still sure as hell is mine, and the guest mapper made a significant contribution to it, that's all.
And basically, the creator of a mapset is still the one who all the mappers of the map considers the creator; that've worked until now, and I'm pretty sure we rarely have a case where there are arguments about who "owns" a mapset. Why then, enforce this rule.
Okay, I create a map, make an easy difficulty, and upload it through BSS. Then I get mappers who wants to create guest diffs for me. They provide a normal and hard, and one of them also maps an insane. Should I then just say "nope" and discard that mappers work, just because of this rule? That's not something I would want to do, ever. So suddenly that mapset is the guest mappers map, and not mine, greeeaaat... Not. It still sure as hell is mine, and the guest mapper made a significant contribution to it, that's all.
And basically, the creator of a mapset is still the one who all the mappers of the map considers the creator; that've worked until now, and I'm pretty sure we rarely have a case where there are arguments about who "owns" a mapset. Why then, enforce this rule.
Sakura wrote:
Oh well guess you guys arent even reading my suggestions :<
Topic Starter
Collabs are an entirely different problem, I think. It'd be better to give them their own thread to discuss, they are very special cases. I will change the wording in the first post to make collaboration mapsets exempt of this rule until they get their own.Sakura wrote:
Oh well guess you guys arent even reading my suggestions :<
Or you could map a second difficulty yourself, but I can understand that mapping two complete difficulties is too much work when mapping TV Size.CXu wrote:
Should I then just say "nope" and discard that mappers work, just because of this rule?
This is about who should own the mapset, not who created it. I've made osz files for other people to map. Does that mean that their maps and their work is mine because I'm the one who created the mapset ? No. You're stealing people's work and taking credit for what you don't deserve.Cxu wrote:
And basically, the creator of a mapset is still the one who all the mappers of the map considers the creator; that've worked until now, and I'm pretty sure we rarely have a case where there are arguments about who "owns" a mapset. Why then, enforce this rule.
Isn't this what I've been trying to solve this entire time?Shiro wrote:
Collabs are an entirely different problem, I think. It'd be better to give them their own thread to discuss, they are very special cases. I will change the wording in the first post to make collaboration mapsets exempt of this rule until they get their own.Sakura wrote:
Oh well guess you guys arent even reading my suggestions :<
While the current guidelines applies to both ordinary and collab (incl. marathon) maps, the new statement won't be able to replace the old one unless it covers all perspectives.Sieg wrote:
previous guidelineShiro wrote:
previous rule
Topic Starter
Then the statement about collabs shall not change.
*edits OP*
*edits OP*
The fix doesn't change my question --- according to the proposed statement it should be under guideline if it is validated.
If the guest mapper that creates two difficulties acknowledges the uploader as the map creator, there is no problem at all. Did qoot8123 feel that he was the mapset creator of this? https://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 . And because of the 2 taiko diff rule (which is fine btw), you either have to ask someone else to map the other taiko, or map an unnecessary difficulty (which also can pull attention away from the guest mappers diff).Shiro wrote:
Collabs are an entirely different problem, I think. It'd be better to give them their own thread to discuss, they are very special cases. I will change the wording in the first post to make collaboration mapsets exempt of this rule until they get their own.Sakura wrote:
Oh well guess you guys arent even reading my suggestions :<Or you could map a second difficulty yourself, but I can understand that mapping two complete difficulties is too much work when mapping TV Size. - I have no idea if you directed that TV Size comment on me, or the ones who dislike this rule, but no, this applies just as much to the 6 minute song as it does to a tv size map, and while there isn't a lot of work involved in creating another difficulty, consider the need for another difficulty of the same level. For Insanes, there might be more ways to map it, but what about Normal? Easy? Should a mapset have 2 easy diffs just to satisfy this rule? Oh, and what if I contributed with a Hard; should I map another hard then, for songs where insane doesn't work.CXu wrote:
Should I then just say "nope" and discard that mappers work, just because of this rule?This is about who should own the mapset, not who created it. I've made osz files for other people to map. Does that mean that their maps and their work is mine because I'm the one who created the mapset ? No. You're stealing people's work and taking credit for what you don't deserve. - Did you consider yourself as the mapper? Did the one who asked for the .osz consider you as the mapper? "No" for both? Good, it's not your map.Cxu wrote:
And basically, the creator of a mapset is still the one who all the mappers of the map considers the creator; that've worked until now, and I'm pretty sure we rarely have a case where there are arguments about who "owns" a mapset. Why then, enforce this rule.
What I mean is that, if no Guest mapper has a problem with giving the credit of being the uploader/creator, then why is it still a problem, and need a rule like this.
Topic Starter
So which part are you whining about exactly ? The collab part ? The "all modes together" one ? The fact that this goes for rules and not guidelines ?
State clearly what you want, I can't read your mind. And I don't understand what you're whining about in any of your previous posts.
State clearly what you want, I can't read your mind. And I don't understand what you're whining about in any of your previous posts.
Wait, this was a guideline? I thought it was a rule.Shiro wrote:
Alright, so current GUIDELINES say:
- The number of maps by any mapper should not exceed the number of maps by the uploader: this means that if you have 2 diffs, no guest mapper can have more than 2 diffs; collaboration maps are exempt from this. Ask a BAT if you're unsure of who should upload the mapset.
- You should fully map at least one difficulty of a mapset if you are the person who is uploading it. For collaborated beatmap sets, the uploader must be a part of every difficulty. Also, no guest mapper should have more content in the mapset than the creator. It makes no sense to upload a map if you barely contributed to it.
God, I'm so slow!
Disagreeing isn't whining, thank you.Shiro wrote:
So which part are you whining about exactly ? The collab part ? The "all modes together" one ? The fact that this goes for rules and not guidelines ?
State clearly what you want, I can't read your mind. And I don't understand what you're whining about in any of your previous posts.
I don't think this is necessary as a rule, I state the reason I don't think it's necessary as a rule, and where such a rule would cripple a mapper/mapset, an that I'm okay with it as a guideline. It's not too hard.
Topic Starter
I see this necessary as a rule because it's a matter of accountability and who owns a mapset, which isn't something that should change depending on people's mood.
Also "whining" is my generic word for complaining, while I use complaining in a more professional way. >.< sorry about that bad use of words of mine, this isn't quite what I meant
Also "whining" is my generic word for complaining, while I use complaining in a more professional way. >.< sorry about that bad use of words of mine, this isn't quite what I meant
What takes more effort mapping standard insane or taiko oni?
With this rule, who must be owner for such mapsets?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/80747
With this rule, who must be owner for such mapsets?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/80747
I pretty agree with this. I think it should be mappers choice who will submit it, not depending on who mapped the most.CXu wrote:
Only my first paragraph was about collaborations.
Okay, I create a map, make an easy difficulty, and upload it through BSS. Then I get mappers who wants to create guest diffs for me. They provide a normal and hard, and one of them also maps an insane. Should I then just say "nope" and discard that mappers work, just because of this rule? That's not something I would want to do, ever. So suddenly that mapset is the guest mappers map, and not mine, greeeaaat... Not. It still sure as hell is mine, and the guest mapper made a significant contribution to it, that's all.
And basically, the creator of a mapset is still the one who all the mappers of the map considers the creator; that've worked until now, and I'm pretty sure we rarely have a case where there are arguments about who "owns" a mapset. Why then, enforce this rule.
If something like this rule should keep existing, I would want this to be the most non-hurting for mappers. Even finding and timing song is a pain.
Shohei Ohtani
Proposing moving the originally bubbled rule to rule (aka. Uploaded must upload most diffs)
Move collab ruling to guidelines, since I see a lot of instances where it can pass (ie. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/24610 <- I had to remove my insane diff since it was years old and the spread was fine at ENHI, and it would be a lot easier to just remove the diff rather than re-map it for a third time.)
Unrelated, but maybe there can be a clause of "Collabers must map half of the diffs of the mode they choose to map"
Because a huge issue with basing it off of percentages is when people make guest diffs for modes that the mapper does not originally intend (generally osu!standard). If you look in Listen!!, I still map half of set (Full easy and collab Insane). However, based on percentages, I'm thrown off because of Ozzy's taiko.
Move collab ruling to guidelines, since I see a lot of instances where it can pass (ie. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/24610 <- I had to remove my insane diff since it was years old and the spread was fine at ENHI, and it would be a lot easier to just remove the diff rather than re-map it for a third time.)
Unrelated, but maybe there can be a clause of "Collabers must map half of the diffs of the mode they choose to map"
Because a huge issue with basing it off of percentages is when people make guest diffs for modes that the mapper does not originally intend (generally osu!standard). If you look in Listen!!, I still map half of set (Full easy and collab Insane). However, based on percentages, I'm thrown off because of Ozzy's taiko.
I wonder how this thread would have played out if all along, the "Creator" field had been called "Publisher" instead.
Topic Starter
So you want this under rules:
No guest mapper is allowed to have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. Collaboration mapsets are the only exception to this rule, and a collaboration difficulty counts as the uploader's if they take part in it. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.And this under guidelines:
For collaboration mapsets, the uploader should take part in all difficulties of the mapset.
the answer is confused since you think "contribute is proportional to time length", that is the time spending on other works like storyboarding/skinning should be considered.Shiro wrote:
No. This only takes mapped difficulties into accounts, all modes together.Scorpiour wrote:
is making storyboard / skin or looking for mods considered as contribute to mapset?
that is if you thought no, then it means "contribute is not relate to time", that is, time length of mapping is also not relate to contribute.
Why should it even matter
If guest diff creators don't mind uploader having less diffs mapped or whatever, what's the problem?
Forcing to map additional diffs mappers are bad at making JUST to satisfy this rule is even more pointless and will most of the time lead to worse quality of the mapset and slowing down everything
If guest diff creators don't mind uploader having less diffs mapped or whatever, what's the problem?
Forcing to map additional diffs mappers are bad at making JUST to satisfy this rule is even more pointless and will most of the time lead to worse quality of the mapset and slowing down everything
Shohei Ohtani
The rule doesn't really force mappers to map additional diffs, as said in the OP. I can still get a map like this ranked. It just makes it to where I can't just be like "I'll map one diff and then my buddy will map 2"
If you're talking about the guideline about collabs, it exists so people don't just map one part of a collab and have guest differs map the rest.
If you're talking about the guideline about collabs, it exists so people don't just map one part of a collab and have guest differs map the rest.
Now you ruined it even more. Just imagine, as I said before 6 mappers. Every 2 of them wants to make 1 diff, totally 3 diffs, because 1st has similar style to 2nd, but totally different to 3rd and 4th, who have similar style to themselves, but also totally different to 5th and 6th mappers, who have again similar style to themselves. Yeah, it's rankable to map collab with two different styles, but it sux really much. Just imagine collab between Andrea and Lesjuh (sorry guys for naming exactly you, you just came to my mind now), they have totally different style from what maps they've already released and just imagining how one is mapping totally symmetric and one is mapping his really more free style, it's terrible to imagine...Shiro wrote:
So you want this under rules:No guest mapper is allowed to have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. Collaboration mapsets are the only exception to this rule, and a collaboration difficulty counts as the uploader's if they take part in it. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.And this under guidelines:For collaboration mapsets, the uploader should take part in all difficulties of the mapset.
Btw. Yeah, I know guidelines can be broken, but shouldn't be, only at really rare circumstances.
What about https://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 then? I mean, I'm pretty sure qoot is fine with mapping two difficulties here (considering he accepted to make them in the first place). If this is a rule, the mapper would be forced to either map another difficulty, or remove one of the taiko diffs, and ask another person to map an additional taiko. Or transfer the map. I don't think any of these solutions are any good tbh.CDFA wrote:
The rule doesn't really force mappers to map additional diffs, as said in the OP. I can still get a map like this ranked. It just makes it to where I can't just be like "I'll map one diff and then my buddy will map 2"
If you're talking about the guideline about collabs, it exists so people don't just map one part of a collab and have guest differs map the rest.
Topic Starter
Yes, we want to stop that kind of display of absolute laziness. The first part is not going to change - the one being discussed now is about collabs.CXu wrote:
What about https://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 then? I mean, I'm pretty sure qoot is fine with mapping two difficulties here (considering he accepted to make them in the first place). If this is a rule, the mapper would be forced to either map another difficulty, or remove one of the taiko diffs, and ask another person to map an additional taiko. Or transfer the map. I don't think any of these solutions are any good tbh.CDFA wrote:
The rule doesn't really force mappers to map additional diffs, as said in the OP. I can still get a map like this ranked. It just makes it to where I can't just be like "I'll map one diff and then my buddy will map 2"
If you're talking about the guideline about collabs, it exists so people don't just map one part of a collab and have guest differs map the rest.
I don't really understand this part about the collabs
So, if the host collabs an Insane they should also collab ALL the diffs?
So they can't like, collab an Insane, map Hard themself and let X map Normal and Y map Easy?
Collabing all diffs would be a mess imo
Buuuut if the host collabs ONLY one diff and guests do the rest, the map shouldn't be ranked and one of the three (considering the person who collabed with the host being a fourth person) guests should upload the map since the host contributed to half of a diff
If they map one more diff they would be contributing with 1,5 diffs
I'm still confused about what this guideline implies
So, if the host collabs an Insane they should also collab ALL the diffs?
So they can't like, collab an Insane, map Hard themself and let X map Normal and Y map Easy?
Collabing all diffs would be a mess imo
Buuuut if the host collabs ONLY one diff and guests do the rest, the map shouldn't be ranked and one of the three (considering the person who collabed with the host being a fourth person) guests should upload the map since the host contributed to half of a diff
If they map one more diff they would be contributing with 1,5 diffs
I'm still confused about what this guideline implies
I ask then, who are the BATs to judge "laziness" to a mapset? How can you even measure said laziness? And WHY would the BATs need to care about the laziness of the mapper? Because it makes you feel good to force mappers to do this for no reason? No reason -> This isn't about the quality of a mapset (because who mapped the map has nothing to do with the quality of the map at all), so all this rule will ever do is to force mappers to do something they don't enjoy or don't want to do.Shiro wrote:
Yes, we want to stop that kind of display of absolute laziness. The first part is not going to change - the one being discussed now is about collabs. - Excuse me, but I'm pretty sure Kert, CDFA and I aren't talking about collabs. Do tell if my reading comprehension is shit.
I am for having this (this being the rule discussed about maps with guest difficulties, not the collaborations part) as a guideline. You should encourage "unlaziness", not force "unlaziness" because being forced to map usually turns out a crap difficulty. As a guideline, you can encourage mappers to create more difficulties, and guidelines should rarely get broken anyway (if they do get broken "too much" in your taste, then that's a problem with the BATs.)
The other part you mentioned somewhere earlier was credits, which is irrelevant: If I want to give my two guest difficulties to Kert (just using him now), and let him take the credit, I sure as hell don't need a BAT coming around forcing me to take that credit; I don't want it.
Hopefully what I say actually makes sense, as it might be a bit of a ramble.
I think the problem isn't about the guests wanting their credits. Their names are on the diffs anyways lol
The problem is someone ranking a whole set with only ONE diff while SOMEONE made two
Doesn't matter who wants the credit at all, but it IS unfair
Why would someone be able to get something under the Ranked Maps tab if they mapped less than someone else for the set?
Doesn't make sense to me
IMO since taiko is a different mode and two taiko diffs are required for rank, that example with Guren no Yumiya would be KINDA ~OK~ at all, still not the best and shouldn't happen again since taiko is treated like standard nowadays.
It's simple, who contributed more uploads. If the host is not happy with it, they should either let the map graveyarded or map one more diff, like an easy that can be made in less than 1 hour.
About quality and "the mapper only made the easy diff for the sake of ranking the set" this can be solved through the modding process
If the host made a poor easy, they'll take more time searching for mods until the diff is decent. This would delay the rank anyways.
Making everything decent and rankable from the scratch sounds easier to me.
The problem is someone ranking a whole set with only ONE diff while SOMEONE made two
Doesn't matter who wants the credit at all, but it IS unfair
Why would someone be able to get something under the Ranked Maps tab if they mapped less than someone else for the set?
Doesn't make sense to me
IMO since taiko is a different mode and two taiko diffs are required for rank, that example with Guren no Yumiya would be KINDA ~OK~ at all, still not the best and shouldn't happen again since taiko is treated like standard nowadays.
It's simple, who contributed more uploads. If the host is not happy with it, they should either let the map graveyarded or map one more diff, like an easy that can be made in less than 1 hour.
About quality and "the mapper only made the easy diff for the sake of ranking the set" this can be solved through the modding process
If the host made a poor easy, they'll take more time searching for mods until the diff is decent. This would delay the rank anyways.
Making everything decent and rankable from the scratch sounds easier to me.
Unfair for who? The mapper? The GD'ers? Other mappers? Or because you (the general you, not directed at anyone) think it's unfair?
Let me just use myself as an example (because I know how fast/slow I map). I can pump out a 3~5 diff TV Size in a few hours, 1 day tops if I want to. For another mapper he/she might spend days mapping a single insane diff for the same song. Who then, is the laziest? Because I don't feel I've actually put that much effort in it, while for the other mapper, spending days probably qualifies as putting effort into their map. According to this rule (or well, not the rule but the laziness thing that Shiro was talking about), he's superlazy while I'm supernotlazy, which isn't necessarily true.
And adding rules to slow down the ranking progress so that the quality of the mapset as a whole might go down (forcing mappers to map) is a rule not doing anything good.
Let me just use myself as an example (because I know how fast/slow I map). I can pump out a 3~5 diff TV Size in a few hours, 1 day tops if I want to. For another mapper he/she might spend days mapping a single insane diff for the same song. Who then, is the laziest? Because I don't feel I've actually put that much effort in it, while for the other mapper, spending days probably qualifies as putting effort into their map. According to this rule (or well, not the rule but the laziness thing that Shiro was talking about), he's superlazy while I'm supernotlazy, which isn't necessarily true.
And adding rules to slow down the ranking progress so that the quality of the mapset as a whole might go down (forcing mappers to map) is a rule not doing anything good.
For whom? As I said, everyone is fine with it except this rule[Luanny] wrote:
Doesn't matter who wants the credit at all, but it IS unfair
No.[Luanny] wrote:
If the host made a poor easy, they'll take more time searching for mods until the diff is decent. This would delay the rank anyways.
Making everything decent and rankable from the scratch sounds easier to me.
These mappers who didn't want to map let's say.. an Easy for their mapset by themselves ... can do it, very rankable. But it can be extremely bland and boring or just not as good as better-easy-diff mappers can do and I doubt it's possible to change during modding process
Topic Starter
Alright then. I don't want to force my ideas upon anyone, I only wanted to fix the atrocious wording on that thing. I'll let you people get credit you don't deserve for things you didn't do. I'm tired of trying to put some sense into people who only care about ranking mapsets.
No guest mapper should have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. For collaboration mapsets, the uploader should take part in all collab difficulties. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.This as a guideline ?
Though I don't particularily like that 2nd or 3rd sentence in your post; yes I am fine with it as a guideline.
Can't it be something like:
Disregard my bad wording/grammar
It's more encouraging than strict prohibition that is in the current guideline you proposed
It is adviced to make mapset difficulties by yourself. This will keep the mapset consistent and with the same style?
Disregard my bad wording/grammar
It's more encouraging than strict prohibition that is in the current guideline you proposed
Topic Starter
I dislike that wording because it implies that guest difficulties are a bad thing. The only thing the previous guideline and my rewording try to do is make sure that there isn't a mapper mapping 4 diffs, someone mapping only 1 and uploading the mapset.Kert wrote:
Can't it be something like:It is adviced to make mapset difficulties by yourself. This will keep the mapset consistent and with the same style?
Disregard my bad wording/grammar
It's more encouraging than strict prohibition that is in the current guideline you proposed
I'm totally ok but I'd personally prefer it as a ruleShiro wrote:
Alright then. I don't want to force my ideas upon anyone, I only wanted to fix the atrocious wording on that thing. I'll let you people get credit you don't deserve for things you didn't do. I'm tired of trying to put some sense into people who only care about ranking mapsets.No guest mapper should have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. For collaboration mapsets, the uploader should take part in all collab difficulties. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.This as a guideline ?
I see guidelines as rules that can be broken when you have a reason for doing so, and I don't see any reason for a mapset being ranked with two diffs by a guest and one by the host. Buuuuuuuuuuut better this than nothing.
People should put the needed effort to get their maps ranked
edit: some modhelp discussion made it clear
Btw. I think that the one who should upload the map is the one who is going to find modders and then BATs. If somene makes diff, he can make it because he cannot find them, because he cannot make M4M or he is just lazy so if he would upload a beatmap because he've done more diffs than the original uploader, he wouldn't rank it, I doubt the original mapper would want to find mods to rank a map which he won't have in Ranked Beatmaps... he does all the general thing for a mapset, guest mapper has nothing to do with whole map, but only with GDs.. 
Shohei Ohtani
While I do kind of find this agreeable, it's also wrongWafu wrote:
Btw. I think that the one who should upload the map is the one who is going to find modders and then BATs. If somene makes diff, he can make it because he cannot find them, because he cannot make M4M or he is just lazy so if he would upload a beatmap because he've done more diffs than the original uploader, he wouldn't rank it, I doubt the original mapper would want to find mods to rank a map which he won't have in Ranked Beatmaps... he does all the general thing for a mapset, guest mapper has nothing to do with whole map, but only with GDs..
I've had plenty of people PM me with requests to mod maps that they have a guest diff in, that's they didn't upload. I'd do the same thing if I didn't have 8 complete sets that I'm desperate for mods on
.Mostly because a lot of mappers aren't really concerned with their ranked beatmap number, but rather that their beatmap is ranked for people to play :3. If people really put so much emphasis on the number of ranked beatmaps they have on their profile, guest diffs wouldn't even exist
(and taiko mappers would like die, lol)
Topic Starter
Finalizing this as a guideline in 24 hours if no substantial counter-argument comes in in that time.
No guest mapper should have more difficulties in the mapset than the creator, all modes together. For collaboration mapsets, the uploader should take part in all collab difficulties. The person who should upload the map is the one who contributed most to it.
I disagree with the collab portion. Why is the mapper required to take part in a collab? Isn't it better to have 4 people partake in a guest collab than 4 people make a guest difficulty for a map? A collab is the same thing as a guest difficulty. Why does it matter who took part in it?
I mean I guess it's not a big deal since it's a guideline. But I've never heard of anyone saying that the mapper needs to take part in his own collab.
I mean I guess it's not a big deal since it's a guideline. But I've never heard of anyone saying that the mapper needs to take part in his own collab.
Now it's pretty okay since it's guideline. I think if there would be 2 collabs, one would be mapped by mapper1 and mapper2 and second would be mapped by mapper3 and uploader, because they cannot map it together for any reason. If the reason is certain, you can break this guideline I guess.TheVileOne wrote:
I disagree with the collab portion. Why is the mapper required to take part in a collab? Isn't it better to have 4 people partake in a guest collab than 4 people make a guest difficulty for a map? A collab is the same thing as a guest difficulty. Why does it matter who took part in it?
I mean I guess it's not a big deal since it's a guideline. But I've never heard of anyone saying that the mapper needs to take part in his own collab.
Topic Starter
For collaborative mapsets ie mapsets for which each difficulty is a collab otherwise guest collabs are fine. Does no one read anymore ? -_-TheVileOne wrote:
I disagree with the collab portion. Why is the mapper required to take part in a collab? Isn't it better to have 4 people partake in a guest collab than 4 people make a guest difficulty for a map? A collab is the same thing as a guest difficulty. Why does it matter who took part in it?
I mean I guess it's not a big deal since it's a guideline. But I've never heard of anyone saying that the mapper needs to take part in his own collab.
I misread, okay. :p Approve it!
Topic Starter
Finalizing the guideline as no major counter argument was given.