Well, I'm focusing in some mappers' laziness instead mapping quality, my point of view is if a mapper doesn't contribute too much to his/her own mapset, why is that person taking the credit of the mapset as uploader?
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[Guideline] Creator must map at least 2 diffs.
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Topic Starter
But this made beginner mappers for hard work and stressmancusojuanmattos wrote:
And, yes it has. It'll help the main mapper to put more effort in their map and don't be ''lazy'' in some way
mapping isn't mandatoryKawayi Rika wrote:
hard work and stress
Ranking a map is not only mapping itself. The uploader need to find mods, deal with mods, and arrange all the guest diff related things. So under current rule the uploader will surely do the most work in ranking a map.
I mean to take care of beginners,nothing other.those wrote:
mapping isn't mandatory
Topic Starter
If we're lenient with newbie mappers they won't learn how to make a proper spread or how to map certain difficulties, as they'll keep depending on other people.Kawayi Rika wrote:
But this made beginner mappers for hard work and stress
Also, mapping 2 difficulties is not that hard and stressful, unless it's a really long song.
This is a good argument. I'm not sure which side to be on. I would say it depends on certain conditions (song length, stuff like that)
Probably this is a problem,less than 2 minutes song = 2diff ? not sure.DakeDekaane wrote:
unless it's a really long song.
Please make sure not to count difficulties from other modes as well. If not, I could be mapping 4 standard difficulties and still not be able to rank because of 5 other difficulties from different modes (Taiko/CtB/Mania).
It's your map and you make the majority of it. I think that way explains it the best than deciding a certain numberShiro wrote:
I would honestly like to restrict this to at least 50% of the mapset, rather than two difficulties. I don't think I need to explain my reasoning again ?
Topic Starter
Yep, I agree pretty much with Shiro too, but I can see many people are going to be whining about it, that's why I suggested a number instead.
If it has low bpm, then why not? It's not like all of TV Size mapper are so lazy or something.Kawayi Rika wrote:
Probably this is a problem,less than 2 minutes song = 2diff ? not sure.DakeDekaane wrote:
unless it's a really long song.
why do you even care of who does the map? there is something bad with mapping only one difficulty?
fix one problem before you fix anotherDakeDekaane wrote:
Well, I'm focusing in some mappers' laziness instead mapping quality, my point of view is if a mapper doesn't contribute too much to his/her own mapset, why is that person taking the credit of the mapset as uploader?
mappers do not need to contribute to others' sets on a mandatory basis. as long as the ratio is fit, then the map is fit for rank.those wrote:
mapping isn't mandatoryKawayi Rika wrote:
hard work and stress
why impose a rule like this?
I don't understand what you guys talking about. Besides the Marathon beatmaps that need 6 minutes drain time at least to be allowed in pending(That's what I heard, I never tried it), any other map set needs at least two difficulties to be in the Pending section, according to the BSS. I don't agree fully with this rule, personally I would like something like "2 Difficulties at least, a hard and a easy/normal" as a must, if the mapper doesn't want to create more difficulties. The guest difficulties doesn't need to be limited, if the creator wish for more Guest Difficulties, it's their own decision.
Against the Guideline -> Rule reasons
- A map is accountable to a certain mapper when he certainly worked more that other mappers when he mapped more than other mappers, and that only arleady say that you should map at least the same quantity of other mappers ( one diff, plus some other things)
- There are mappers that will be against this, many of them... though I'm neutral. And map accountability do it's work.
- Well, just no. I don't want any more mappers that can only map "decent" Insane. I want all-over good mappers, and like this you're helping mappers being selfish and just mapping the hardest diff.
- If you want it, remove that exception.
- EDIT: The exception make the rule null, since people will just map the harder diff and stop.
I just don't see the point of the rule.
- Laziness does not imply bad quality. The starting point of the rule is to ensure quality, not to ensure the character of the mapper. Sometimes the character is important (e.g. attitude against mod), but not this one.
- Again, we rank maps based on the map, not the mappers. There's nothing wrong to have a insane-mapping-expert mapping insane, hard-mapping-expert mapping hard and so on which combines into a overall good complete set. That does not make any difference from a overall-good mapper mapping a complete set.
- Talking about creator. Providing the GD to another mapper implies that you give him the right to use your creation for further processing (ranking). It is just like an editor collects different essays from distinct writer and put them into a complete book. The main credit is given to the editor, but every individual essay has been titled correctly with the right writer which are correctly credited. Similarly in the mapset we have the uploader collecting the diffs and he has the right to make it published (ranked) and claim the main credit while the GD makers are mentioned in different medium (like GD name, thread opening, etc). Have you seen book publisher restricting that the editor must write a lot in the book other than collecting others' work to claim the main credit? It does not make any sense.
I would really want to see the introduction of multi-creator system so that this problem can be settled.
- Laziness does not imply bad quality. The starting point of the rule is to ensure quality, not to ensure the character of the mapper. Sometimes the character is important (e.g. attitude against mod), but not this one.
- Again, we rank maps based on the map, not the mappers. There's nothing wrong to have a insane-mapping-expert mapping insane, hard-mapping-expert mapping hard and so on which combines into a overall good complete set. That does not make any difference from a overall-good mapper mapping a complete set.
- Talking about creator. Providing the GD to another mapper implies that you give him the right to use your creation for further processing (ranking). It is just like an editor collects different essays from distinct writer and put them into a complete book. The main credit is given to the editor, but every individual essay has been titled correctly with the right writer which are correctly credited. Similarly in the mapset we have the uploader collecting the diffs and he has the right to make it published (ranked) and claim the main credit while the GD makers are mentioned in different medium (like GD name, thread opening, etc). Have you seen book publisher restricting that the editor must write a lot in the book other than collecting others' work to claim the main credit? It does not make any sense.
I would really want to see the introduction of multi-creator system so that this problem can be settled.
Shohei Ohtani
Just to set my foot down on the whole "New mappers omg"
I started mapping in about 2010 (My first submitted map was in December 2009, and it's since been deleted, but you can pretty much consider the submitting of I.M. Crazy to be my first real map.) Around this point in time, I was probably one of the most disliked members of the community. I couldn't even dream of getting a guest diff. I was mapping a YTP map and most people in the game wanted me out. So you know what I did? I mapped an entire full mapset. Granted, there was no rules about having to have ENHI, so I mapped EHI. Three diffs, all on my own. I put in the work, with the help of some people, to get that map ranked, with all of my own creations. It was stressful, yes, but guess what? It still got ranked, and people really liked it. The cool thing was, people liked it because of MY creation. People came up to me and said "You need to map more maps, CDFA." It wasn't something like "Oh yeah cool Mystearica diff CDFA yeah", but I got to actually get praise for my map. Plus, mapping all of those diffs helped me to understand what each difficulty did. Did it take time? Yeah, I uploaded about 3 other maps before having this map ranked. I actually lost the entire Insane diff when I first mapped it, so I had to remap it again. It took a hell of a lot of time. But mapping the full mapset actually helped out a whole lot. I could be like "This is what an insane does. Ok. This is what a hard does. Ok. This is what an easy does. Any suggestions on how I can make this better?"
Let's take a look at the community. Origami_Munchkin. Probably one of my favorite unknown mappers out there. He likes Owl City. So he chooses to makes maps of Owl City. I can tell he's put in the effort to look at other maps (A lot of Owl City mappers are part of that English Symmetrical mapping thing, and he's American, so you can see the influence), and he's made a full mapset for his full maps. Now he's, after so long and a second try, he's on the verge of getting his map ranked. He's exactly like you and me. He's a guy who likes a song, and wants to get it ranked, so he puts in the full effort to make it happen. He doesn't have connections to get a bunch of guest diffs while he makes an easy, he just looks at maps, sees what people like, tries to implement it, and shows it out to the community so they can give him tips on improving.
This happens really often.
The more time and effort you put into something, the more you're going to get out of it. The more you're going to learn. The more successful that it's going to be. Otherwise, you're pretty much just getting something ranked so you can have a pretty little "Yay ranked!" on your profile. You're not improving yourself as a mapper. Because of that, you're not going to be successful in the future of mapping. Because a lot of people who use that "Oh, I'm a new mapper, I'll only map one diff!" end up becoming those "Oh I'm experienced I'll just make a diff and have other people make others for me since like easy diffs are boring!"
I guess the big point of this giant paragraph is that just because you're a new mapper, doesn't mean you can just skip out on this for "when I get more experienced." The road to mapping isn't one where you can slap something together and have your buddies fill in the holes you never bothered filling. It's one where you're going to have a lot of bumps, a lot of trip ups, a lot of frustration, a lot of issues, but in the end, you're going to become a much better person, and a much better mapper.
So if you're trying to "be there and help new mappers keep the mapping spirit woohoo", then don't smother them in a puffy cloud of "OH YEAH YOU'RE DOING GREAT YOU ONLY NEED ONE DIFF." If you want a new mapper to be good, you need to push them into doing more. Because what are they going to do when the puffy cloud is gone?
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As for the rule, I don't agree with the "unless it's the highest diff" clause. Mostly because the main problem is that people map with just the insane diffs and have people guest diff the lower diffs, lol. A lot of the maps that I'm like "fkn fkn" don't do that, but a major issue I see is when do that too, and it happens a lot more often, and with a lot of the more experienced mappers. (inb4 "ur a fkn hypocit cdfhypocrit").
Although there should be a clause in here explaining how collabs will be counted, since I have no clue how to do that.
I started mapping in about 2010 (My first submitted map was in December 2009, and it's since been deleted, but you can pretty much consider the submitting of I.M. Crazy to be my first real map.) Around this point in time, I was probably one of the most disliked members of the community. I couldn't even dream of getting a guest diff. I was mapping a YTP map and most people in the game wanted me out. So you know what I did? I mapped an entire full mapset. Granted, there was no rules about having to have ENHI, so I mapped EHI. Three diffs, all on my own. I put in the work, with the help of some people, to get that map ranked, with all of my own creations. It was stressful, yes, but guess what? It still got ranked, and people really liked it. The cool thing was, people liked it because of MY creation. People came up to me and said "You need to map more maps, CDFA." It wasn't something like "Oh yeah cool Mystearica diff CDFA yeah", but I got to actually get praise for my map. Plus, mapping all of those diffs helped me to understand what each difficulty did. Did it take time? Yeah, I uploaded about 3 other maps before having this map ranked. I actually lost the entire Insane diff when I first mapped it, so I had to remap it again. It took a hell of a lot of time. But mapping the full mapset actually helped out a whole lot. I could be like "This is what an insane does. Ok. This is what a hard does. Ok. This is what an easy does. Any suggestions on how I can make this better?"
Let's take a look at the community. Origami_Munchkin. Probably one of my favorite unknown mappers out there. He likes Owl City. So he chooses to makes maps of Owl City. I can tell he's put in the effort to look at other maps (A lot of Owl City mappers are part of that English Symmetrical mapping thing, and he's American, so you can see the influence), and he's made a full mapset for his full maps. Now he's, after so long and a second try, he's on the verge of getting his map ranked. He's exactly like you and me. He's a guy who likes a song, and wants to get it ranked, so he puts in the full effort to make it happen. He doesn't have connections to get a bunch of guest diffs while he makes an easy, he just looks at maps, sees what people like, tries to implement it, and shows it out to the community so they can give him tips on improving.
This happens really often.
The more time and effort you put into something, the more you're going to get out of it. The more you're going to learn. The more successful that it's going to be. Otherwise, you're pretty much just getting something ranked so you can have a pretty little "Yay ranked!" on your profile. You're not improving yourself as a mapper. Because of that, you're not going to be successful in the future of mapping. Because a lot of people who use that "Oh, I'm a new mapper, I'll only map one diff!" end up becoming those "Oh I'm experienced I'll just make a diff and have other people make others for me since like easy diffs are boring!"
I guess the big point of this giant paragraph is that just because you're a new mapper, doesn't mean you can just skip out on this for "when I get more experienced." The road to mapping isn't one where you can slap something together and have your buddies fill in the holes you never bothered filling. It's one where you're going to have a lot of bumps, a lot of trip ups, a lot of frustration, a lot of issues, but in the end, you're going to become a much better person, and a much better mapper.
So if you're trying to "be there and help new mappers keep the mapping spirit woohoo", then don't smother them in a puffy cloud of "OH YEAH YOU'RE DOING GREAT YOU ONLY NEED ONE DIFF." If you want a new mapper to be good, you need to push them into doing more. Because what are they going to do when the puffy cloud is gone?
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As for the rule, I don't agree with the "unless it's the highest diff" clause. Mostly because the main problem is that people map with just the insane diffs and have people guest diff the lower diffs, lol. A lot of the maps that I'm like "fkn fkn" don't do that, but a major issue I see is when do that too, and it happens a lot more often, and with a lot of the more experienced mappers. (inb4 "ur a fkn hypocit cdfhypocrit").
Although there should be a clause in here explaining how collabs will be counted, since I have no clue how to do that.
If a map has 1 difficulty by the uploader and all the other ones are guest diffs, I don't see why the uploader should be the owner of the map. At this point it's a collaborative effort between how many people mapped the diffs.
New mappers actually are way more diligent with this, they make all their diffs themselves.
New mappers actually are way more diligent with this, they make all their diffs themselves.
Copy one part and paste it with a flip somewhere else~
The 1 diff rule is fine imo. I personally like guest diffs, since they are made by different users within a map-set.
Someone has to be in charge, why not the uploader?Mr Color wrote:
If a map has 1 difficulty by the uploader and all the other ones are guest diffs, I don't see why the uploader should be the owner of the map. At this point it's a collaborative effort between how many people mapped the diffs.
New mappers actually are way more diligent with this, they make all their diffs themselves.
If a single users make more than 1 difficulty (and the creator just 1), then it might be different. But that is currently not allowed.
thisdkun wrote:
mappers do not need to contribute to others' sets on a mandatory basis. as long as the ratio is fit, then the map is fit for rank.
why impose a rule like this?
So assuming a mapper only plans to put two difficulties up for rank, but he/she needs to contribute an appropriate amount instead of completely relying on others. would one out of two be enough or does the original mapper still need to map both difficulties?
I think uploader should map at least 2 diffs, like hard and easy, insane and normal and so on. But if it's 5-6 min song, 1 diff is fine.
i think there was a rule about not having an Insane difficulty without a Hard
Topic Starter
Take in mind that this won't be limiting the number of GD, as now there's no limit in the maximum number of difficulties to aim for rank, it's just making the mapper put more effort in his own mapset (specifically, mapping 1 diff more).
It's not unnecessary. It just prevents certain people (not looking at anyone) from having stupid 1/1/1/1 mapsets with thousands of guestmappers where the creator just maps one diff and then gets his mapset ranked in a short time. And it's there to prevent mappers from being lazy and that is a good thing.Kawayi Rika wrote:
This rule is to have any meaning? I think it's unnecessary.
Very good rule.
Support.
It's not unnecessary because it's a good thing, good argument, let's see, if you'll play a map, do you put attention on who did it?, if they're guest difficulties you're not going to enjoy?, if a mapper only wants to do the insane difficulty then it is fine, because if he is forced to do the other difficulties, they will be wrong.vipto wrote:
It's not unnecessary. It just prevents certain people (not looking at anyone) from having stupid 1/1/1/1 mapsets with thousands of guestmappers where the creator just maps one diff and then gets his mapset ranked in a short time. And it's there to prevent mappers from being lazy and that is a good thing.Kawayi Rika wrote:
This rule is to have any meaning? I think it's unnecessary.
Very good rule.
Support.
Also, nobody is forced to do the guest difficulties, if they do it is because they want, everyone is happy ..
I thought that there was a rule to kind of stipulate, but also allow some room for collab maps. Something about the mapper not mapping less in proportion to what they didn't? I think that a ratio rule would be good--if there are three people, then they should do at least a third, if there are four, they should do at least a quarter etc. This would also work with maps in which every difficulty's a collab, since the workload would've been shared in each diff. If the uploader's sourced and timed everything themselves, then they've at least put in a bit more effort on top of their difficulty/difficulties.
Of course, I'm all for anything which prevents maps where the uploader's contributed very little, since it kind of defeats the point of that uploader putting their name on it. At least map a hard or insane if that's going to happen! To me, any excuses regarding this are moot and, as ever, I'm happy to explain my opinion if people press me on it (be civil).
Of course, I'm all for anything which prevents maps where the uploader's contributed very little, since it kind of defeats the point of that uploader putting their name on it. At least map a hard or insane if that's going to happen! To me, any excuses regarding this are moot and, as ever, I'm happy to explain my opinion if people press me on it (be civil).
Kodora
Not all insane mappers are good at making normal/easy diffs. To improve overral mapset quality sometimes better ask for guest diff. But i'll be glad to see this new point at guidelines.
Also, as Rika mentiored, it might be hard for beginner mappers to create map with 2 diffs or more, so i propose disable this rule/guideline for mappers who have no ranked maps yet. Start of mapping career must be friendly!
I afraid much more about maps what have only E/N from owner and guest H/I. Rules allowes that, and imho this is just unfair if mapper did only easiest job in mapset but have main credits.
Also, as Rika mentiored, it might be hard for beginner mappers to create map with 2 diffs or more, so i propose disable this rule/guideline for mappers who have no ranked maps yet. Start of mapping career must be friendly!
I afraid much more about maps what have only E/N from owner and guest H/I. Rules allowes that, and imho this is just unfair if mapper did only easiest job in mapset but have main credits.
I don't really see the point of this rule.
Anyhow, can someone explain to me why we need such a rule? (like benefits and stuff.) I mean, it's probably good to encourage the creator to do most of the work on his mapset, but a rule like this is kinda silly.
- Anyone who uploads the map also need to put in the effort to get that map modded and ranked, while guest mappers mostly can just sit and wait for mods, so the uploader still does the most work.
- A guest mapper that maps for someone already knows the implication of making a GD, and does so by his/her own will. That usually means that yes, they don't think it's unfair that someone else gets the "credit" for the mapset. And most of these maps get named accordingly anyway.
- To be fair, for the average player, who created the map is irrelevant; only the end-product is. So if a map is good enough, no matter the amount of GDs or whatever, it doesn't really make a difference anyway.
- Enforcing a rule like this fixes absolutely nothing. On the contrary, it forces mappers to map something they might not want to map, decreasing the overall quality of the mapset as a whole. Is this a result of "mapper laziness"? Well, maybe, maybe not, but that doesn't change the fact that the GD'd mapset is probably going to be of higher quality. Why should we care about how lazy a mapper is? People are different, so how much time they're willing to spend on a mapset is different.
Anyhow, can someone explain to me why we need such a rule? (like benefits and stuff.) I mean, it's probably good to encourage the creator to do most of the work on his mapset, but a rule like this is kinda silly.
The point about encouraging the mapper to do the work is largely the point. Moreover, it's about enabling those who enjoy specific mappers' work to find proper demonstrations of their work, instead of something which merely has their name on it and a load of work which isn't there. In that sense, it's also a moral thing, but really, if one person's made a full set on their own and another's barely scraped together one playable difficulty, I'd much prefer to see the full set.CXu wrote:
I don't really see the point of this rule.So, I did read the whole thread, but I don't really remember exactly what points were discussed, but I think I covered my thoughts on some of them atleast.
- Anyone who uploads the map also need to put in the effort to get that map modded and ranked, while guest mappers mostly can just sit and wait for mods, so the uploader still does the most work.
- A guest mapper that maps for someone already knows the implication of making a GD, and does so by his/her own will. That usually means that yes, they don't think it's unfair that someone else gets the "credit" for the mapset. And most of these maps get named accordingly anyway.
- To be fair, for the average player, who created the map is irrelevant; only the end-product is. So if a map is good enough, no matter the amount of GDs or whatever, it doesn't really make a difference anyway.
- Enforcing a rule like this fixes absolutely nothing. On the contrary, it forces mappers to map something they might not want to map, decreasing the overall quality of the mapset as a whole. Is this a result of "mapper laziness"? Well, maybe, maybe not, but that doesn't change the fact that the GD'd mapset is probably going to be of higher quality. Why should we care about how lazy a mapper is? People are different, so how much time they're willing to spend on a mapset is different.
Anyhow, can someone explain to me why we need such a rule? (like benefits and stuff.) I mean, it's probably good to encourage the creator to do most of the work on his mapset, but a rule like this is kinda silly.
Ultimately, it might not be a whole lot more than decency and diligence, but getting a person to strive to do more on their own can only be a good thing.
I don't know which side have good reasons since:
as explained, there are "moral" reasons, and many mappers that everytime make only one diff
though, differently, putting all the work on a single difficulty means the mapper can concentrate more on the quality.
I would still disapprove the "if mappers made insane, he can only make one difficulty" part.
Why don't go to a different "flexible" guideline that say: " You should map at least 2 difficulty or 3/4 minutes of draining time of your map " or so ? ( in the case of tv sizes 2 difficulties, in the case of full sizes you can make one on longer maps )
as explained, there are "moral" reasons, and many mappers that everytime make only one diff
though, differently, putting all the work on a single difficulty means the mapper can concentrate more on the quality.
I would still disapprove the "if mappers made insane, he can only make one difficulty" part.
Why don't go to a different "flexible" guideline that say: " You should map at least 2 difficulty or 3/4 minutes of draining time of your map " or so ? ( in the case of tv sizes 2 difficulties, in the case of full sizes you can make one on longer maps )
Well yeah, the Guest Mapper(s) doesn't look around for Mods to the Mapset. That's the Job of the Uploader. We often have the case that the Mapper itself is doing the Storyboard or rendering the Video for the Song. It's not that this should be counted or so.. well, it needs to be to say "This person gave effort into his work."DakeDekaane wrote:
it's just making the mapper put more effort in his own mapset (specifically, mapping 1 diff more).
Anyway, just a little fix for the current quote:
Well, things like that will still work but causing at all still Two-Standard Diff-Mapsets.You must fully map at least two difficulties of a mapset if you are the person who is uploading it. For collaborated beatmap sets, the uploader must be a part of every difficulty. Also, no guest mapper should have more content in the mapset than the creator. It makes no sense to upload a map if you barely contributed to it.
Well, this rule need to reworded imo. What if the mapper just want 2 diff mapset? So you can't ask someone to make gd for you?
What doesnt make sense is like this, in an eight diff mapset you just map 1 diff, while everything is a GD. That the example of mapper is so lazy and doesnt contribute a lot in his/her own map. Having 1 diff in 4 diff mapset looks lazy too to me. At least contribute 50% to our own mapset is more appropiate word.
What doesnt make sense is like this, in an eight diff mapset you just map 1 diff, while everything is a GD. That the example of mapper is so lazy and doesnt contribute a lot in his/her own map. Having 1 diff in 4 diff mapset looks lazy too to me. At least contribute 50% to our own mapset is more appropiate word.
Why is it wrong to host a map set where each diff is mapped by someone else?
I don't understand this irrational idealism. This rule appears to be a social norm that has no apparent reason despite from the fact that the people who do everything by their own put their ideals above those, who are either lazy or simply want to do a set with a couple of people (as social collaboration)
For me, the map self should be the focus, not the name written on it.
If people do not contribute or work for their mapset or diffs, they don't get it ranked for poor quality anyways.
This rule only serves for recognition and fame purposes, not for any quality assurance. And as long as you just want to fight for some social norm you dislike for irrational emotional disapproval towards lazy people, this shouldn't be a rule in the first place.
Actually only the outturn counts. And if the outturn is a good map on a nice song, you should overcome your arrogance and ignore the names written on each difficulty
I don't understand this irrational idealism. This rule appears to be a social norm that has no apparent reason despite from the fact that the people who do everything by their own put their ideals above those, who are either lazy or simply want to do a set with a couple of people (as social collaboration)
For me, the map self should be the focus, not the name written on it.
If people do not contribute or work for their mapset or diffs, they don't get it ranked for poor quality anyways.
This rule only serves for recognition and fame purposes, not for any quality assurance. And as long as you just want to fight for some social norm you dislike for irrational emotional disapproval towards lazy people, this shouldn't be a rule in the first place.
Actually only the outturn counts. And if the outturn is a good map on a nice song, you should overcome your arrogance and ignore the names written on each difficulty
I'm liking this discussion lol
It rubs me the wrong way when I see a really nice map but its just filled with guest diffs. It's your damn name down there under creator, create more tha 1 diff!!
Anyways something I came up with while reading all posts:
The amount of diffs mapped by the mapper should be greater than or equal to the amount of guest diffs. This would account for maps with 2 diffs, 1 by the mapper and 1 GD. For your normal ENHI maps, that's 2 by the mapper and 2 GDs. For something like ENH, 2 by the mapper and 1 GD. Collabs would stay the same and this won't count towards the special game modes.
It rubs me the wrong way when I see a really nice map but its just filled with guest diffs. It's your damn name down there under creator, create more tha 1 diff!!
Anyways something I came up with while reading all posts:
The amount of diffs mapped by the mapper should be greater than or equal to the amount of guest diffs. This would account for maps with 2 diffs, 1 by the mapper and 1 GD. For your normal ENHI maps, that's 2 by the mapper and 2 GDs. For something like ENH, 2 by the mapper and 1 GD. Collabs would stay the same and this won't count towards the special game modes.
The most obvious reasons are consistence and actually getting a set that's been made by the creator. It's not "arrogance." Consistence should be enough of a reason on its own, since a collab set will invariably have a load of different styles across the difficulties.Loctav wrote:
Why is it wrong to host a map set where each diff is mapped by someone else?
I don't understand this irrational idealism. This rule appears to be a social norm that has no apparent reason despite from the fact that the people who do everything by their own put their ideals above those, who are either lazy or simply want to do a set with a couple of people (as social collaboration)
For me, the map self should be the focus, not the name written on it.
If people do not contribute or work for their mapset or diffs, they don't get it ranked for poor quality anyways.
This rule only serves for recognition and fame purposes, not for any quality assurance. And as long as you just want to fight for some social norm you dislike for irrational emotional disapproval towards lazy people, this shouldn't be a rule in the first place.
Actually only the outturn counts. And if the outturn is a good map on a nice song, you should overcome your arrogance and ignore the names written on each difficulty
Otherwise, what isn't there to get about the annoyance at somebody making a minimal effort and piggybacking off the collective effort of others? It's not a matter of fame and recognition either, since the guest mappers would still have their names in a collab set. What is a problem is when the uploader has clearly had very little input to the set and had others make the hardest difficulty/difficulties. Would you really want to put your name on something that's had more work done by somebody else?
Some sentiments and suggestions can't be qualified by what it means to be "rankable," but for goodness' sake, we should at least encourage some fucking pride and diligence when there are plenty who make the effort without needing to be spoon-fed pointers on how to do so.
Suggested wording:
The creator of a beatmap must have fully (no collaborations) mapped at least 2 difficulties within the mapset, so as to provide a basic level of consistency across the mapset. You may request as many guest difficulties as you like, but you must have made at least two difficulties by yourself.
I have to fully disagree with that wording Ephemeral. That is just banning the creation of long collabs (or basically long maps in general). It is already difficult enough to map songs greater than 5min, but to force mappers to map 2 of their own diffs at that length before a collab diff can be even made is basically just putting a near insurmountable in front of mappers of those long songs.
As a small note, having a single person map a long song (7min +) is usually boring because there are no new patterns to play by the end. The best way to avoid this is just have changes in style.
As a small note, having a single person map a long song (7min +) is usually boring because there are no new patterns to play by the end. The best way to avoid this is just have changes in style.
I think this completely depends on the map ... agree with blissfulyoshi
If the word 'creator' has been a problem, then remove it, change it to editor or main contributor or something similar. There is no such need for the rules and see my points in the previous post t/136151/start=24 .
The main point is, when the guest diff maker hands their diff out, they agree the fact that the one they hand in to, is the creator (agreeing that his is worthy to be listed there. Otherwise why don't GD mappers submit the map themselves?). If all contributors of the map agree on the issue while others (who are not involved in the mapping process) just went to point fingers on them, this is excessive.
The main point is, when the guest diff maker hands their diff out, they agree the fact that the one they hand in to, is the creator (agreeing that his is worthy to be listed there. Otherwise why don't GD mappers submit the map themselves?). If all contributors of the map agree on the issue while others (who are not involved in the mapping process) just went to point fingers on them, this is excessive.
Would this be better suited as a guideline?
I would say yes. As there can be different situation such as song length, mapping style diversity etc.Ephemeral wrote:
Would this be better suited as a guideline?
Indeed, fits better.Ephemeral wrote:
Would this be better suited as a guideline?
Also totally agreeing with wmfchris. I wonder where this idealism and the attitude to enforce it on others came from.
Guideline, where in brackets it says that normal length songs shouldn't break it.
Long maps, go ahead and make one difficulty. It takes about as much time to map one long song as it does to map 1-3 shorter song difficulties, so why not.
Long maps, go ahead and make one difficulty. It takes about as much time to map one long song as it does to map 1-3 shorter song difficulties, so why not.
as a rule, just no. for why:
guideline seems OK enough..popner wrote:
But note that this will bring no increase in map quality(even a drop because mapper are forced to map something they don't want to, with their creativity exhausted)
Finalizing within 3 days as the following:
You should map at least two (2) difficulties of a mapset you are submitting. While mapping with other users is encouraged, the person submitting the beatmap should attempt to provide a solid, consistent grounding for the set with their own difficulties, with the guest difficulties acting to supplement that initial set.
As a guideline I presume?
As a guideline, yes.
I supposed that would be the case with the use of the word "Should" isntead of "Must"
The rule has been adapted to the guidelines already. Marking with a heart, also replacing "must" with "should", since guidelines contain "should" as general verb.