（中文投票翻译见最后。）

We already have a discussion on silent hitsound usage on Ranking Criteria forum.
The post is at t/127565&start=0
As the quick closing of this post, we have figured out that we should firstly discuss it in more general public.

A quick walkthrough of the post:
Since Osu! Is in an accompanying-music fashion, and osu!mania, on the opposite, is a music-playing fashion. We mania mappers don't want such unsuitable and low-quality “regular hitsounds” to be forcefully taken place in our mania-specific maps because of that difference. They will either use full customized hitsound or use silent hitsound(But can't due to rules). And you can’t set converted maps as an example to support a necessity to hitsounds. Many players and mappers have already stated that they don’t want default hitsound, so why it’s a bad idea to allow silent hitsound?

(For some further discussion on this topic, look at the post or just read on.)

A great deal of o!m maps are going to have completely customized hitsound. They already throw away these default hitsounds, instead, they use hundreds or even thousands of different instrumental sounds to FORM the music. If you missed a note, it represents nothing like in standard osu where you still hear the complete song but without a clap. You just won’t HEAR THAT SOUND. This is actually the situation of hitsound used in o!m. The first ranked song by DJPOP is a good example, where many drum hits are separated from the original song and in preview you just can’t hear them(Oh yeah this is another problem but it's out of this thread's scope.)

This kind of map(I’m going to call that key-sounded maps later) is always greatly appreciated, but because you’ll have to de-compose the song in order to do that, this is not suitable, or to say, possible, to every song, especially for these anime Ops(Actually for nearly every vocal songs, unless you get an off-vocal non-less version, and even that you can’t get really good quality map.) and is costly. So many mappers considered made an imitation: You hit the song as if you play the song in key-sounded maps. And this is where no-key-sounded maps come into place.

Following is part of a message I sent to staff:
...Actually forbidding silent hitsound DO discourage mappers. Why? This reflect difference between these game modes.

You may know "hitsounding", which refers to "keysounding" in mania community, actually is FAR more important than what you may imagine. We put "A note is a sound" in heart, and are willing to make a full-key-sounded "super-elaborate" maps. But unfortunately as I stated above, we do have many music that are going to be no-key-sounded. These songs are "a note as an imitation sound" but "a note as a clap". Music is imagined to be played by your hits on the notes. This is why osu! Standard hitsounding technique is not suitable in osu!mania. In osu!, mappers give player extra feedbacks and accompany with music by giving extra sound other than the music itself. But in osu!mania, we do not “give them extra feedback” – either we make the song itself feedback(For example, you missed a note representing a piano sound “Do”, and the song flows without “Do”.), or to make imagination that you have played. And when mappers consider making a map in osu!mania, they either make a full-key-sounded map with fully customized hitsound sets, or just want to silent them away, but NOT the low-quality-looking default hitsound in osu!mania playing style, which does nothing with the music itself. We are just not too lazy to put these default hitsound “randomly” on the map – we feel that unsuitable. That’s why.

And you may wonder that “Why Converted maps can have well-done hitsounds when your specific map can’t?” OK, you may have found the difference between these 2 modes had even affected getting notes from music(I don’t know whether this should be called snapping). Woc2006 made a fantastic approach even compared to other (worldwide) attempts on converting rhythm beats to osu!mania maps. But why the community still complain about the poor quality of converted maps? That’s just because different note-getting method. Osu! Is a single soundtrack game, means that you can’t place 2 note at the same time. But osu!mania is not. In osu!mania gameplay, many maps provide variety of instrumental tracks (For example, Piano, drum, bass at the same time). For osu! Mostly Catch the Beat, claps are OK to them. As converted maps sincerely follows the osu! Original map, claps are fairly OK to them(Oh yeah, there are still a great deal of problem, but not revelance) But since you may already observed the difference on flow of notes presenting, putting a clap on a 1/4 piano rhythm part is NOT suitable for osu!mania. What’s more, a great deal of 1/8, even 1/16 streams presenting things completely different from drums (such as bass, electro sound, etc) may be found in hardcore maps. It’s pretty weird if you try to mark them with hitsound, and in osu! You even don’t allow 1/16 notes taking place.

I have a great deal of examples of maps with better quality when you make hitsounds silent or almost unhearable, such as:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/83592 This is a pretty good song only looking at everything except its hitsound. With these “soft” hitsound using on piano 1/4 stream notes, hitsound cover the music itself. What’s more, 1/4 soft sound connected each other together, resulting in a flood of loudiness and nonsense, ruining the great piano music.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/85585 After we have pointed out hitsound rule issues he immediately made that not audible. (You may also try to turn hitsound to 100% in editor and to hear the terrible effect.)
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/73068 This one haven’t go through the stage of hitsound. (The author may have not taken care of that.) You may hear the horrible non-stopping 1/4 stream clap sound when opening SFX
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/106186/start=15 This is a ranked map. The author has no hitsound in the beginning, but as woc pointed out that hitsounds must be existed to be ranked, he/she added it. And you now can get the poor experience on the middle part of the song!

…And much,much more. If you want more examples, contact me later or just find a bunch of superhard maps. I’ll have to point out that many maps want to be ranked is forced to be hitsounded, whatever the author thought. So that wouldn’t be a necessary condition to support your reason as the community “needed” the hitsound.

What do you think?

以下是翻译：
你认为无K音图的hitsound最多允许hitsound静音到何种程度？
完全静音化（如5%vol）使得不论默认还是换皮肤都无声；
仅默认静音（如空wav）使得默认无声，但是换皮肤有声；
不允许，保持原状，必须有听得见的默认clap soft之类的声音。

沙发

woc2006 wrote:

沙发

火前留名

t/127565

but why not have this topic in Ranking Criteria, what difference does it make having it in the wrong forum?

Why you are hating on maps an call them poor (in my case) just because of hitsounds. It was my first time i ever mapped and i just used the osu default samples. If you dont like them thats your opinion but if you look at the patterns of my hitsounds it is not "poor".. Please try to get your opinion across without dragging other peoples work into the dirt.

OnTopic: In my recent map i uploaded i used several new sound samples for the major rhytmic parts of the song and left the other notes on soft 5% volume. It makes the map audible and gives a good feedback to the song while keeping "the mess of osu sounds" away, like you would put it. Well im gonna see what opinions im going to get on this..

Also i dont understand the first 2 options of this poll..

Always silence (By default and any means no hitsound would be present.)

Do you mean timing section volume 5% or replace the sound with a blank wav file?

Default silence (only silent as default. Skin sound should be able make them sound again.)

This is the same as above? Also how should my skin make it sound when the mapper makes it silent?

Voted for default silence.

theowest wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/127565

but why not have this topic in Ranking Criteria, what difference does it make having it in the wrong forum?

bunp it up.
this is also my post and i have mentioned above. thouhg they locked it in the middle of discussion in a flash.

Hanyuu wrote:

Why you are hating on maps an call them poor (in my case) just because of hitsounds. It was my first time i ever mapped and i just used the osu default samples. If you dont like them thats your opinion but if you look at the patterns of my hitsounds it is not "poor".. Please try to get your opinion across without dragging other peoples work into the dirt.

Sometimes default hitsound is OK to use in beat biased notes. But not in rhythm based ones. That means you may get good result in using default hitsound in some song, BUT NOT FOR EVERY SONG. And I am not saying to forbid using default hitsound. I AM SAYING TO ALLOW NOT USING IT.
And for that song.
1. You are using customized hitsound which is already out of this pozt's range.
2. Some BAT told me that 5% is not tolerated at all. There is a rule saying to make every hitsound audible. and you must have your customized hitsound and the mess of default ones together.

Wrong forum.

peppy wrote:

Wrong forum.

I already have a discussion on the "correct" forum but I don't know whether re-posting a "finalized" request would result in locking again.

This is a mania specific poll asking mania players their thoughts on things. I don't see how this is the wrong forum. It's not directly a request but it's meant to foster more communication within the mania community as a whole.

Hanyuu wrote:

Why you are hating on maps an call them poor (in my case) just because of hitsounds. It was my first time i ever mapped and i just used the osu default samples. If you dont like them thats your opinion but if you look at the patterns of my hitsounds it is not "poor".. Please try to get your opinion across without dragging other peoples work into the dirt.

Don't take things so personally. xxbidiao doesn't always have the best english, so sometimes the nuance of what he's saying gets somewhat lost in translation. It's got absolutely nothing to do with patterns of hitsounds. It's about whether mappers should be allowed more control over whether or not to use hitsounds. If you want to use hitsounds, that's fine. If you want to experiment and improve things beyond using the default hitsounds, that's wonderful. You're working to improve things. I don't think many people have a problem with that.

What we do have a problem with is that many of us don't like hitsounds unless they are fully custom. relaxing this rue would allow ore freedom for those of us who want it.

If the restriction on hitsounds were to be lifted it would mean that mappers who don't like hitsounds would be able to chose not to have them. It would have no effect on those who like hitsounds and want to use them.

Yeah i got it after a while ._.

Sadly things goes worse in months after this post.

Let's reopen this discussion.

Why? the other thread is totally sufficient

I'll gotta say that the new changes to hitsounding rule is very appropriate since this game is called osu!, a game with hitsounds feature. There would be no reason if you're lazy to hitsound a mania map.

osu!mania has already lost a good map,lieselotte.
Just because hitsound for rule.
Who really understand osu!mania ?
Hitsound is not really for every maps.
osu!mania is not osu.
Key-sound ≠ hitsound.
osu!mania need more Key-sound instead of hitsound.

Spy wrote:

Key-sound ≠ hitsound.

Why rule makers still refuse to see that?

It's stated as clear it can be stated in the first couple sentences of the first post.

Osu! is a game where where you play along with the music in the background, making hit-sounds a necessity to accomplish this purpose.

Osu!mania is a game that simulates you playing the music. Having out of place hit-sounds ruins the immersion with a big mess of useless sounds being thrown around. Either have proper music-relevant key-sounds like smoooch or none at all.

If a player feels he wants hit-sounds it's as easy has activating them in his skin. Why not the other way around? Because the fact that there's a few players coming from the standard mode that wants hit-sounds like their used to shouldn't be a problem pushed on mappers that don't want hit-sounds on their map.

It's like saying mappers should integrate a stepmania skin for their 4k maps to accommodate players coming from stepmania. And no that example isn't exaggerated. Hit-sounds AND visual should be optional to the mapper and up to the player to decide what he wants.

Well you can already mute the sound effects (including hitsounds which means keysounds too) through the audio settings, but that would make maps like Imperishable Night just unplayable.

I see no reason not to allow us using blank/muted hitsounds. Liese's Piano Concerto "Scream" is a good example of a map which doesn't benefit from hitsounds. Only keysounded piano notes would have done the trick. Don't misunderstand me, I can see where peppy and BATs are coming from and I can understand their way of thinking, but this hitsound rule is not suitable for every map (Scream doesn't work with hitsounds, however, Skalim's The Island is wonderful, but that's only because most notes are drum-based)

If you are disturbed by hitsounds as player, you can skin them out and remove them via "ignore hitsounds".
But for those who want them, we declared every map to have such hitsounds, so every map basically supports hitsounds when someone wants them.
As a mapper, this means that you must use hitsounds. Even if you play without, you must offer this feature to every player - and those players who don't want them, can disable them via skin or via game options.
Else we cannot officially support and promote your map. That are he basic needs to get your map ranked here. It's a fundamental feature of osu! and we want it to be supported on every single map . else we can not consider it as officially ranked map for this game client and ranking system.

For further explanations, read the other thread. I will lock one of these somewhen. Let's await replies.

@Pyra we are always up to help you finding suitable custom hitsounds for piano songs that work kinda pitch-based. Don't say "it can not work at all", if you just consider drum hitsounds as only hitsounds that ever existed.
And when standard can hitsound piano songs on one layer, mania can that, too. Additive hitsounding works the same on both modes. (ADDITIVE!)

Loctav wrote:

If you are disturbed by hitsounds as player, you can skin them out and remove them via "ignore hitsounds".
But for those who want them, we declared every map to have such hitsounds, so every map basically supports hitsounds when someone wants them.
As a mapper, this means that you must use hitsounds. Even if you play without, you must offer this feature to every player - and those players who don't want them, can disable them via skin or via game options.
Else we cannot officially support and promote your map. That are he basic needs to get your map ranked here. It's a fundamental feature of osu! and we want it to be supported on every single map . else we can not consider it as officially ranked map for this game client and ranking system.

For further explanations, read the other thread. I will lock one of these somewhen. Let's await replies.

@Pyra we are always up to help you finding suitable custom hitsounds for piano songs that work kinda pitch-based. Don't say "it can not work at all", if you just consider drum hitsounds as only hitsounds that ever existed.
And when standard can hitsound piano songs on one layer, mania can that, too. Additive hitsounding works the same on both modes. (ADDITIVE!)

Some kind of familiar statement wrote:

Sadly despite the beneficial discussion on these posts by community, I didn’t see any stance change since the beginning of osu!mania. There are 2 of them:
(1) “This is my game, this breaks my rule, so go away”
(2) “This is correct. This is ******* correct. This is absolutely correct. So if you want to break this rule, go away”

How dare you say this on here!
Please at least talk about something benefitial that how hitsounds enhance the playing experience (in this forum, and on the other posts), not to use your moderation rights to lock every post that against your idea.

Or to say,

Loctav's logic wrote:

But for those who want them (majority half), we declared every map to have 7-key-at-the-same-time, so every map basically supports Real rhythm when someone wants them.

Please allow 7key gaming, as quick as possible

BTW,

Loctav wrote:

Pyra we are always up to help you finding suitable custom hitsounds for piano songs that work kinda pitch-based. Don't say "it can not work at all", if you just consider drum hitsounds as only hitsounds that ever existed.

If you know what difference is between keysound and hitsound I bet you won't say such things.
Consult @chonicle to get a clue on how she was managed to split the piano sound out (By recomposing the song!)

You are refusing to understand the logic I am having, you consider getting your maps ranked by us as "given right" to you. Also you are blaming me for playing with words, even tho it's you fighting more about words than actually about the meaning behind it.

As long as you don't even want to understand what I actually said, I am not willed to furthely discuss this topic. You are just twisting the things I said to ridicule it. If that's the way you discuss things, then I can't help you.

Loctav wrote:

You are refusing to understand the logic I am having, you consider getting your maps ranked by us as "given right" to you. Also you are blaming me for playing with words, even tho it's you fighting more about words than actually about the meaning behind it.

As long as you don't even want to understand what I actually said, I am not willed to furthely discuss this topic. You are just twisting the things I said to ridicule it. If that's the way you discuss things, then I can't help you.

Anyway, arguing is not a good nature on discussion.
Let's continue this discussion by benefitial statements.

(From here I would leave the discussion to others.
I believe both of us are willing to see osu!mania being made into a better game mode.
Whatever things are going on, please keep that in mind. )

Loctav wrote:

But for those who want them, we declared every map to have such hitsounds, so every map basically supports hitsounds when someone wants them.

Let's compare the situations.

When everything is forced to be hitsounded, people who want hitsounds are satisfied, but people who don't want them aren't. (The only way to make them silent is a global setting that affects everything, so for example ruins keysounded charts)

When maps using silence.wav are allowed, people who want hitsounds are satisfied because they can disable them on per-map basis to turn them into skin hitsounds, and people who don't want hitsounds are obviously satisfied too.

I personally need hitsounds as I'm coming from standard, and I'd like to have an option to play the chart both ways - how the mapper intended (for fun), and with hitsounds (for score).