lolcubes wrote:
D33d wrote:
The entire point of putting tactile patterns to music is to know how music works. If the mapper can't get to grips with that, then they've fallen at the first hurdle. I was simply wording it like, "Don't put shit that isn't there, unless you really have to." It's common sense. Not everybody has to map and not everybody has the prior knowledge to make it easy immediately.
This is all nicely put and would work in theory, but you just can't take away permission to map from anyone. Come on man, that's just beyond silly. I can understand your viewpoint, but the world is very big, and if you think that everyone who maps know something about music on a more technical level, then I believe you are very wrong.
You don't have to know jack shit about music to make a map, but you will struggle through the modding process a lot.
As for "don't put shit that isn't there unless you really have to" and "common sense", just browse map threads and people's reactions. We should rename common sense to uncommon sense, because that's what it is lol.
There are vast majority of people who absolutely decline any suggestions about changing their rhythm patterns because they are unfitting, just because they want them to be like that. Not many people even care about the quality of their map, they just want their shit ranked. Rankable 
? Rank pls.
D33d wrote:
Why is it a bad thing to pop bubbles over flagrant violations of the feel of a song? If something feels out of place and doesn't have a real reason for existing (for the nth time, "I'm just expressing my artistic interpretation of the song" is not an excuse), it should be fixed.
That's the entire point I was trying to make. It's not a bad thing to pop bubbles for such reasons. The only shady thing here is to what degree can you do this without causing a major uproar based on a more personalcriteria (note: you absolutely cannot have anything personal as a rule or a guideline, which is the whole reason why I don't like this whole idea at all), because some people, as Charles already mentioned, will always be on the overmap side not giving a fuck about the other people.
Also I will repeat, you cannot objectively define the threshold where overmap stops making sense. It's all down to the individual (musical knowledge helps a ton, however read my first part about that). This thing alone destroys any idea of a rule or a guideline on this matter.
Charles445 wrote:
Discuss potential ways to compromise - mapping isn't going to get anywhere without proper mixing of ideals. No one side is right.
I will repeat, a compromise cannot be reached until a common ground has been found. It will not be. It's impossible to find it unless you have every single individual giving their input, and then making a decision in a democratic way.
I still fail to see why you just can't say NO to things you don't agree with. Now this is common sense, right?
You seem to be missing the basic point. It's not about basing opinions entirely upon subjectivity and it's not about excluding certain people. It's about getting people to learn how to work with music properly, how to embellish it properly and how to make maps which make sense. It's not that people with little musicality should never map--it's that they shouldn't be treated as special flowers or whatever, just because they're trying their best in spite of their shortcomings. For those without such ability, it is only common sense that they should stick to what is more likely to work, instead of trying to do fancy things in cumbersome ways.
About popping bubbles, I was concentrating on nold, who still doesn't seem to get it. The way to define something objectively is either to say, "Omitting this wouldn't have a negative impact on musical expression" or, "Lots of people dislike this and you can't
really justify this." Setting obvious boundaries like this is exactly what is needed in lieu of common sense, as those threads show that it is as rare as hens' teeth.
Can we not merely focus on something that satisfies some sort of basic criteria? If you're going to dig up the argument about subjectivity, then we might as well say that maps don't need to be timed perfectly, because different people have different senses of time and OD can compensate for some things which are out of time. However, that's a different story entirely and was mentioned strictly for the sake of comparison.
There is no feasible way of writing the rules to please everybody--there will always be
somebody who complains. The entire point of the rules and guidelines is to provide a basic framework to prevent obnoxious trends from creeping in. We need
something to set boundaries, otherwise we might as well let every upload be ranked by default and then we can swim in a horrible mess until peppy gives up on osu! entirely.
A rule with wiggle room for some special cases is not an unreasonable thing to suggest. We have, "Don't overuse kiai time" and "The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties." Hello? Add, "Don't overmapping" and/or, "Cases of overmapping must demonstrate some logical thought" or something. Hell, just say "Don't abuse overmapping." Everybody should be able to agree on that.
As for "Don't overuse kiai time," AImod told me that my Coldplay map used it too often. However, it fits and nobody ever complained about it. Perhaps we should scrap the Kiai rule as well?
DEEDIT: Think of it this way: When people study musical performance and soloing is involved, people are taught how to phrase things properly and how to remain true to the music--this means refraining from wanking over the changes with semiquaver triplets of arpeggios for thirty minutes. Creativity is encouraged, but there are still rules to hold it in place. Ultimately, the punishment for breaking these sensibilities ends up with the audience wanting to boot the player off the stage and scrap their instrument. Putting objects to music is more or less like this, as it requires an ability to not shit all over the music and provide an experience that's enjoyable to the consumer. Making a horrible pile of wank makes people want to boot the mapper off the stage (i.e. stop mapping) and scrap their instrument (their mouse/tablet/monitor/computer/hands/life).
This is kind of going off the point, but think about it. Plenty of people detest flagrant overmapping and it's enough to cause maps to be unranked/popped. Why overdo it? There is a countless number of approaches to one song, so it seems outrageous that people should feel like they have the right to disregard the song that they chose to map.
Addendum: In regards to those who only care about getting maps ranked for attention, they will never improve and they will probably be stuck with a self-important mindset for the rest of their lives. They might as well link their maps in their profile, share them with other people and never bother with the ranking system. Rena effectively does that now and she doesn't seem to be worse off for it. However, at least she doesn't do that for the above reasons. She just creates her idea of a perfect beatmap, so she actually strives towards some degree of quality. Of course, the desire to strive for quality
and the desire to push maps for ranking are what move this game forward, which is facilitated by setting limitations. Not everybody will enjoy the limitations, but they'd assure consistence and quality.
