Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
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if you're not going to unrank it, you'd need to lower the multiplier to at least 1% or lower (compared to 30% right now).
personally I feel the mod is fine to play around with and setting goals on some maps that would otherwise not be possible (I'm not talking about ranked maps in this case) so it should definitely stay, but it's just not fit for ranking. It should be in the same group as mods like relax and autopilot.
The amount of difficulty-decrease that HalfTime does on maps above 180bpm is very exponential and cannot be correctly represented with a fixed score reduction multiplier. On long-enough maps where the max combo is high enough there will always be a problem with this.
Had standard used mania's scoring system, it would have been. Would be nice if it did; that scoring system is miles better.
However the way comboing and accuracy is handled in mania is superior to standard in every possible way.
aka it doesn't do shit.
An easy way to separate it would be to make players who enable halftime mod see halftime plays in the top ranks of a map. This way player who don't want to see halftime don't have to and those interested can see it.
But is there anybody in this thread who voted for keeping HalfTime as it is and actually has any top scores with HalfTime?
Because all I see are people who supposedly do not support unranking HalfTime but they're not players who have any HalfTime ranks themselves so everything they're saying is based on assumptions and not on an actual connection to this topic.
Is there anybody in this entire game who meets the following criteria?
1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime
If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
afaik, even people who play with HalfTime often prefer not to finish maps with it so that their HT score won't submit and shadow over their normaltime score. If there is anybody here that is different please say something. However hearing opinions from people who are not interested in contesting on maps where the whole normaltime vs halftime issue exists (i.e. any map where getting an FC is far from trivial) does not really progress this topic anywhere.
(in other words: an FC isn't that much of a bigger score than a good-non-fc play, and halftime scores can't compete with normaltime scores unless the normaltime score is really bad to begin with)
On higher difficulties like FD it basically is the same (on 1/8 spam maps too)
The spinners in standard take OD into account
Relevant to the topic at hand: standard spinners have less max points with higher OD, and are adjusted for modified time so the max score is the same. In Taiko, spinners are worth MORE points with higher OD, and aren't adjusted for modified time (halftime makes them worth more points, doubletime makes them worth less)
Competitiveness isn't for everyone, but it is for a lot of people hence why we have harder and harder maps.
So yeah +1 to what buny said. That's why different difficulties exist. Not everybody is supposed to be able to play everything.
This is why it should be unranked/lowered a lot, it allows scrub tier players to compete with top tier players on an unfair level.
If maps are too hard for players then they should just train more, allowing people to disregard hard work to get high ranks is immoral to begin with.
Even 0.01x for HT feels way too generous, and as longer maps come out it'd cause trouble too.
I have mixed feelings on this one, because for some people, they might find the map fun in HT, for others it's rankwhoring. And changing it will affect somebody in a negative way. Beating someone's top40 score with HT also shows how both players can't play the map at normal speed too.
I've actually voted "it's fine as it is" even though it's really not, but finding a solution for all is an ever harder challenge. I have no Half-Time scores, and never use it, but I don't support unranking HT completely either. The multiplier is fine too.
The real issue is simple... players do not want to see Half-Time scores overtaking their scores and taking up the top40 and replay slots of people who played very difficult maps at normal speed. But this doesn't justify removal of HT, because both players can't FC the map normally. I also don't enjoy watching Half-Time replays.
So there is one simple solution... set a max achievable rank with HT... Like #41? And grant 0 pp.
This is a thumb-sucked solution, so I am not in anyway implying that my solution is better. It's just something to think about.
EDIT: About rank filtering according to mod, we still have the "viewable replays" issue, I want to see the non-HT replays. So that could work, so long as scores with difficulty reduction are saved as a separate set of 40 replays. And then another set of 40 replays are saved without difficulty reduction. Then the filtering would make more sense.
Make sense but doubt it'll happen
HT is difficulty decreasing so it's an unfair advantage with a too high multiplier to begin with.
NoFail doesn't decrease difficulty the map stays the same.
Easy mod differs per person, some people find it easier, others find it harder. (same with hr)
Your opinion on this will change as soon as you start playing higher speed maps. There is nothing strategic about using HT on a 240bpm map to play it in 180bpm instead; it's just a complete elimination of difficulty to cheat your way up the ranks. While the HT play might still be somewhat challenging depending on the design of the map, it's still multiple pars below the level of what a play on the higher speed requires to even just complete the map.
Getting ranks isn't supposed to be "strategy". Ranks are a straightforward thing. You played better - you rank higher. The problem with the current system is that playing better does not imply getting ranked higher, and this thread is looking for a solution to remedy this situation.
Also seems like a lot of people seem to be seeing this as black and white, ranked or unranked, replays available or not available. Replays would be available for players in the top rankings with halftime just they're hidden by default, just like how plays without halftime are still available unless you choose to view halftime scores.
People are viewing it aas a one or the other scenario when in-fact we can reach a compramise (both are available rather than a mixture of both - all this does is make none halftime scores more accessible.)
I'd also say that pp can remain calculated using the normal scoreboard, if we can see who is the none-halftime top rank on a map pp doesn't really matter in the end.
With HT, not only the speed is lowered, but AR and OD too.
The main difficulty in Freedom Dive is the speed (222bpm) and so the stamina required. With HT it's down to 167bpm, which is A LOT easier.
Passing this map without mods, even with bad acc and low combo is still way better than FCing with halftime. Same for other maps like that.
HT is the only mod which decrease significantly the difficulty (nofail doesn't really decrease it and EasyMode make the map harder on insane diff). I never heard someone saying HT is harder than nomod.
I think you don't understand this discussion Marblehead because you never actually played any maps that this discussion is relevant to (unless your play history is lying).
Let me give a few ranked examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55560
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/39804
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/50131
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/37292
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40344
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41823
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/50181
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/45074
If you use halftime on an 180bpm map, it simply makes it somewhat easier, but still just about as challenging to FC and get good accuracy on as the nomod version - so in maps like that, your view on the matter that "an HT FC is more impressive than a nomod pass with many misses" is indeed correct.
However above a certain speed par physical limits start playing a big role on playing the map, and adding HT literally breaks the map and takes away a whole layer of difficulty. All of those maps that I linked are examples of maps where the challenge of getting 300s on any two circles in a row is infinitely greater than the challenge of doing so with halftime.
Also please take none of this as offense, you just seem to not be aware of the issue this thread is about.
Nofail doesn't make a map any easier. The difficulty of playing it stays exactly the same. HP is superficial and doesn't really change anything related to the rhythm or aim aspect of osu maps.
EasyMod makes aim and accuracy easier, but the physical limits of playing the map stay exactly the same. You might not need to be as accurate with the cursor and keyboard while playing it, but you're still going to have to click on everything with a relative level of understanding the map the same as a nomod play (other than a few corner cases where the circle size breaks some patterns on the map, like in shotgun symphony. however on modern maps this issue almost never exists so nobody is making a thread about this).
However HalfTime changes the map into a completely different map.
They /do/ show on the ranking, so they *did* get ranked... no?
How did ranking even work in the past. Was it like "hey look this map has circles and stuff, lets rank it"
I wish I played back then
I still don't see why people who don't even use HalfTime are so intent on posting in this thread and voting against unranking it. The mod is fine as it is and it's nice to play around with it on some maps, but does anybody really prefer to rank with it over normaltime? Why can't it be on the same level as autopilot and relax? You can still play with them and have fun with them, nobody would stop you, it just won't produce a score on the ranking. Isn't this win-win? The only potential lose in this are people who think their HT ranks are worth more than normaltime ranks and should appear above them but is there anybody like this?
For me HT is fine, but I wouldn't mind the HT multiplier to be finetuned (to 0.10x or something). What I mind is that HT should get a special treatment (unranked, hidden ranks, its own ranking etc) when it is clearly in the same group as other mods. Yes, it is the most powerful of them, but on the other hand so is HD, which a lot of times there are many HD plays above DT plays.
I'm not talking about maps that I can't play (after all, I'm still a mediocre player imo). I'm talking about maps that have only 5-10 nomod FCs. You call them hard, I call them gimmicky.
Getting up to 180 speed limit is normal and everybody can do this relatively fast with correct training. Anything up to 180bpm can be considered as "slow".
Between 180bpm and 210bpm is a range which is "slow-fast", that everybody can reach but it will take a ton of training to get there.
210-240bpm is already a range that almost nobody can play correctly other than a few individuals who practiced for years to hours of no end, and even they need rest between plays at those speeds and can't play them well for very long durations. (don't believe me? look at the amount of FCs Atama has)
Anything above 240bpm is the no-zone that nobody can really play correctly. People are able to play short bursts of those bpms with a lot of training depending on how far ahead they can plan and react but everybody hits a wall on this. If you make a map that is just 1000 spaced 1/2 circles on a bpm above 240, there is not a single player in this game who will be able to FC this map, not even cookiezi. Meanwhile with HT that map will be trivial enough to FC even for a casual month-long player.
do you think he'd prefer to show his normaltime passing score on this map or his halftime FC score on this?
the normaltime play clearly requires more skill, and it's a more outstanding performance (by far); is there any logic to letting it rank behind plays much inferior in every possible way or are you just throwing a baseless opinion into the air?
there, no more halftime scores
Sorry what. You're trying to dodge the problem instead of trying to solve it.
The only logical solution is to unrank halftime. It's a good mod, it allows to enjoy maps in more than one way, just like relax and autopilot. It shouldn't be ranked.
The worst part in this discussion is that every single person who does not support unranking halftime is a person who's currently not interested in ranking on maps above 210bpm and if one day they'd try to do it I'm sure that at that very moment they'll instantly change their mind and throw a vote into unranking it.
=> Alternate.
which it isn't even on so why are you complaining? whoops) and even then it would still be available to view simply be switching to allow halftime mods.
being able to play it doesn't say anything about your play speed at all other than being able to plan 3 notes ahead on 125bpm. it just shows you can have accuracy on 125bpm with clicking. this kind of map is exactly the sort of map that halftime doesn't really affect at all.
I can do fullscreen jumps on 420bpm consistently from one edge of the screen to another if it's just one jump. that doesn't make me able to play 420bpm. there's a huge difference.
to be able to correctly play a certain speed means being able to read and understand every single note on that speed and follow that in your playing. maps are designed to simplify that and make higher speed songs playable with lower speed playing, i.e. for example tablet shredder which is mapped mostly with sliders and lined up circles or only very short segments of 2-3 circles at a time. this allows the map to be played like 140bpm with just a little planing ahead. playing it doesn't mean you can read or play 280bpm perfectly
most maps in this game are designed to be easy and playable by planning ahead a little instead of actually playing at their speed. when a map comes that actually requires the player to play at its speed (again, sousei and atama are good examples) suddenly nobody is able to play them. there's a god damn good reason for this.
the halftime mod simply BREAKS those maps, and converts their speed into small segments that can be planned ahead on and followed easily by anybody. a halftime FC on those maps comes nowhere close to the level of playing those maps at all on normaltime
what you interpreted: I don't even know.
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pretty sure there is not a single HalfTime-on-crazy-map player that would complain about their scores being pushed under scores of people who actually managed to pull off a passing performance on those maps in normal time.Michi wrote:
except the people who do those scores but who cares
if you're not going to unrank it, you'd need to lower the multiplier to at least 1% or lower (compared to 30% right now).
personally I feel the mod is fine to play around with and setting goals on some maps that would otherwise not be possible (I'm not talking about ranked maps in this case) so it should definitely stay, but it's just not fit for ranking. It should be in the same group as mods like relax and autopilot.
The amount of difficulty-decrease that HalfTime does on maps above 180bpm is very exponential and cannot be correctly represented with a fixed score reduction multiplier. On long-enough maps where the max combo is high enough there will always be a problem with this.
Topic Starter
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.Michi wrote:
Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
jesus1412 wrote:
the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
How about to make HT scores weigh less than top40 non-HT? example: #40 300 combo > #41 1000 combo HalfTime > #42 280 combo. If there's less than 40 non-HT passes then just show HT right after them. So people who put a lot of effort to perform a map won't get shadowed by HT players (but they still will be rewarded for good play too). I don't think though amount of pp giving needs to be reduced since you can simply get more pp from random hard/insane.
Due to the nature of standard's scoring system this is impossible to implement.enik wrote:
How about to make HT scores weigh less than top40 non-HT?
Had standard used mania's scoring system, it would have been. Would be nice if it did; that scoring system is miles better.
Hard capping the score to 1m regardless of difficulty increasing mods applied is good? What.Aqo wrote:
Had standard used mania's scoring system, it would have been. Would be nice if it did; that scoring system is miles better.
This is the only part of it that I don't like and think it's completely stupid especially with mods taken into account.JappyBabes wrote:
Hard capping the score to 1m regardless of difficulty increasing mods applied is good? What.
However the way comboing and accuracy is handled in mania is superior to standard in every possible way.
HA.Aqo wrote:
comboing
aka it doesn't do shit.
So you want it like mania scoring, all accuracy no combo?
Accuracy only, no combo = Unranked mod.
That's how Relax and AutoPilot do anyway, the difference is that there's no "punish score" unlike osu!mania.
That's how Relax and AutoPilot do anyway, the difference is that there's no "punish score" unlike osu!mania.
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.jesus1412 wrote:
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.Michi wrote:
Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
Topic Starter
So remove the halftime scores from pp calculations for those without and calculate them as a normal top40, as suggested in the OP. Difference is that you want to include yet another calculation for players with halftime. I would have to say this would overly complicate things and allow people to easily get top ranks on hards using "separate" rankings resulting in pp for invisible top ranks.bwross wrote:
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.jesus1412 wrote:
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
It's not really that complicated... computers are built to do this sort of thing, and this is a really an easy thing for them.
And it won't really allow you to get top ranks on hards that are worth anything by using HT... because those simply won't be worth anything. There's a difference between taking an extreme map with 7.5 OPS and HT it to 5.6 (which is still a very respectable insane and should count for something) and taking a 3.5 OPS hard and HT it to 2.6 (which is well back in the normal range). Add in the penalties to pp for using HT and the lack of a decent rank, and you've just gained diddly squat for spending 33% more time than if you just played the normal. Plus, the curve can always be made non-linear so that anything HTed in even the moderate insane range barely ranks as an easy. It's just a matter of running the numbers to find something appropriate. There's nothing quite like giving a munchkin hope and then watching them waste hours trying to twink something that's been so curved down that it will never give them anything... it's one of the small joys of game development.
Plus, it's unlikely that a plan that removes scores from consideration will get any ground... that's not far from just unranking the mod, which isn't going to happen. And so we should start by looking for solutions where everything can count, because, ideally, every valid play should be considered for what it is worth when it comes to evaluating pp. And because of that, HT plays should be evaluated at their actual difficulty and against other scores of the same difficulty, and they should not interfere with people that are essentially playing a different song.
And it won't really allow you to get top ranks on hards that are worth anything by using HT... because those simply won't be worth anything. There's a difference between taking an extreme map with 7.5 OPS and HT it to 5.6 (which is still a very respectable insane and should count for something) and taking a 3.5 OPS hard and HT it to 2.6 (which is well back in the normal range). Add in the penalties to pp for using HT and the lack of a decent rank, and you've just gained diddly squat for spending 33% more time than if you just played the normal. Plus, the curve can always be made non-linear so that anything HTed in even the moderate insane range barely ranks as an easy. It's just a matter of running the numbers to find something appropriate. There's nothing quite like giving a munchkin hope and then watching them waste hours trying to twink something that's been so curved down that it will never give them anything... it's one of the small joys of game development.
Plus, it's unlikely that a plan that removes scores from consideration will get any ground... that's not far from just unranking the mod, which isn't going to happen. And so we should start by looking for solutions where everything can count, because, ideally, every valid play should be considered for what it is worth when it comes to evaluating pp. And because of that, HT plays should be evaluated at their actual difficulty and against other scores of the same difficulty, and they should not interfere with people that are essentially playing a different song.
Topic Starter
Some very valid points indeed, even after thinking about how making it rankable in it's own little group of scores I really can't see a way to make rewards fair. A pass on freedom dive 4d is obviously harder than say an 800 combo halftime, so where do we draw the line? Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.bwross wrote:
It's not really that complicated... computers are built to do this sort of thing, and this is a really an easy thing for them.
And it won't really allow you to get top ranks on hards that are worth anything by using HT... because those simply won't be worth anything. There's a difference between taking an extreme map with 7.5 OPS and HT it to 5.6 (which is still a very respectable insane and should count for something) and taking a 3.5 OPS hard and HT it to 2.6 (which is well back in the normal range). Add in the penalties to pp for using HT and the lack of a decent rank, and you've just gained diddly squat for spending 33% more time than if you just played the normal. Plus, the curve can always be made non-linear so that anything HTed in even the moderate insane range barely ranks as an easy. It's just a matter of running the numbers to find something appropriate. There's nothing quite like giving a munchkin hope and then watching them waste hours trying to twink something that's been so curved down that it will never give them anything... it's one of the small joys of game development.
Plus, it's unlikely that a plan that removes scores from consideration will get any ground... that's not far from just unranking the mod, which isn't going to happen. And so we should start by looking for solutions where everything can count, because, ideally, every valid play should be considered for what it is worth when it comes to evaluating pp. And because of that, HT plays should be evaluated at their actual difficulty and against other scores of the same difficulty, and they should not interfere with people that are essentially playing a different song.
An easy way to separate it would be to make players who enable halftime mod see halftime plays in the top ranks of a map. This way player who don't want to see halftime don't have to and those interested can see it.
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted nowjesus1412 wrote:
Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
Topic Starter
Use the same pp formula to apply the accuracy? The pp doesn't have to be added on, just potential pp used in the calculation for acc.GoldenWolf wrote:
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted nowjesus1412 wrote:
Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
The problem is that PP takes only the top score into account and that it's possible to get a higher score with HalfTime than without it due to comboing, despite the quality of play actually being much lower.
If you really want to solve this, the only logical way to do it is to make HalfTime not produce a score; i.e. change it into an unranked mod the same fashion autopilot and relax are.
If you really want to solve this, the only logical way to do it is to make HalfTime not produce a score; i.e. change it into an unranked mod the same fashion autopilot and relax are.
Topic Starter
If it was my choice I'd say the same, but we need to please everyone. If they think it's fine for other people to have to compete with their scores then they should have to keep them until they can beat them too. I can't see a problem with this, it's only fair.Aqo wrote:
The problem is that PP takes only the top score into account and that it's possible to get a higher score with HalfTime than without it due to comboing, despite the quality of play actually being much lower.
If you really want to solve this, the only logical way to do it is to make HalfTime not produce a score; i.e. change it into an unranked mod the same fashion autopilot and relax are.
That's also what I think.jesus1412 wrote:
we need to please everyone
But is there anybody in this thread who voted for keeping HalfTime as it is and actually has any top scores with HalfTime?
Because all I see are people who supposedly do not support unranking HalfTime but they're not players who have any HalfTime ranks themselves so everything they're saying is based on assumptions and not on an actual connection to this topic.
Is there anybody in this entire game who meets the following criteria?
1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime
If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
afaik, even people who play with HalfTime often prefer not to finish maps with it so that their HT score won't submit and shadow over their normaltime score. If there is anybody here that is different please say something. However hearing opinions from people who are not interested in contesting on maps where the whole normaltime vs halftime issue exists (i.e. any map where getting an FC is far from trivial) does not really progress this topic anywhere.
is taiko taken into accountAqo wrote:
1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime
If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
This discussion is solely about standard, since the whole issue is due to standard's combo/fc score system and the way HT scores break it. I'm aware the case is different in taiko, and don't think HT should change on it. Consider this topic purely for standard._Gezo_ wrote:
is taiko taken into account
In that case my vote doesn't change, I think this is fine as it is, for what it gives (Almost a third of the score given normally at normal speed, and only a tenth more for DT, though for some people DT should get higher in the multiplier, a fifth for some.) because real hard maps in nomod can get hell easier with HT. (See for example FD, if you clearly understand which map I'm talking about)
Topic Starter
Why shouldn't this be the same for taiko if it applies there? I have have no knowledge on it so I wont comment but if it's a problem then let's fix it.Aqo wrote:
This discussion is solely about standard, since the whole issue is due to standard's combo/fc score system and the way HT scores break it. I'm aware the case is different in taiko, and don't think HT should change on it. Consider this topic purely for standard._Gezo_ wrote:
is taiko taken into account
taiko has a score cap for hits unlike standard where it's unlimited.jesus1412 wrote:
Why shouldn't this be the same for taiko if it applies there? I have have no knowledge on it so I wont comment but if it's a problem then let's fix it.
(in other words: an FC isn't that much of a bigger score than a good-non-fc play, and halftime scores can't compete with normaltime scores unless the normaltime score is really bad to begin with)
Look at a shitton of maps in easy, most of the #1 are HT because of the longer spinners (the spinners take time and OD into account unlike standard)jesus1412 wrote:
Why shouldn't this be the same for taiko if it applies there? I have have no knowledge on it so I wont comment but if it's a problem then let's fix it.
On higher difficulties like FD it basically is the same (on 1/8 spam maps too)
_Gezo_ wrote:
the spinners take time and OD into account unlike standard
The spinners in standard take OD into account
I'm technically one, I guess! Mostly I like it being ranked so that I can get A on tag4 or otherwise insane maps and not have an ugly C or something stuck in my rank list. I have no qualms about the scores being hidden from leaderboards and giving no pp, though, so I don't really count.Aqo wrote:
Is there anybody in this entire game who meets the following criteria?
1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime
If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
Relevant to the topic at hand: standard spinners have less max points with higher OD, and are adjusted for modified time so the max score is the same. In Taiko, spinners are worth MORE points with higher OD, and aren't adjusted for modified time (halftime makes them worth more points, doubletime makes them worth less)
There is no issue with Half time. If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it, it's too difficult. osu! is meant to be played by everyone, not 20 10 gifted people. The issue is not with Half time but the map itself. It's not suitably playable without mods.
osu is meant to be played by everyone, that's why we have easier maps.TheVileOne wrote:
There is no issue with Half time. If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it, it's too difficult. osu! is meant to be played by everyone, not2010 gifted people. The issue is not with Half time but the map itself. It's not suitably playable without mods.
Competitiveness isn't for everyone, but it is for a lot of people hence why we have harder and harder maps.
This line of thinking is wrong and it's the opposite of logic. The whole point of very challenging maps is to have scores only by the very top, since they're maps that are intended to be played only by a few players anyway, being the "endgame" content.TheVileOne wrote:
If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it
So yeah +1 to what buny said. That's why different difficulties exist. Not everybody is supposed to be able to play everything.
she_old
+1Aqo wrote:
This line of thinking is wrong and it's the opposite of logic. The whole point of very challenging maps is to have scores only by the very top, since they're maps that are intended to be played only by a few players anyway, being the "endgame" content.TheVileOne wrote:
If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it
This is why it should be unranked/lowered a lot, it allows scrub tier players to compete with top tier players on an unfair level.
If maps are too hard for players then they should just train more, allowing people to disregard hard work to get high ranks is immoral to begin with.
half time already gives only 0.3x score, if people cant pass that with nomod the halftime deserves to be above them. people will recognise the skill of the nomod player anyway
0.3x is way too much for the average length of maps we have today. Do you really think an FC on 4D or Atama or Pluto with HT is worth nearly that much compared to a nomod run on one of said maps?silmarilen wrote:
half time already gives only 0.3x score, if people cant pass that with nomod the halftime deserves to be above them. people will recognise the skill of the nomod player anyway
Even 0.01x for HT feels way too generous, and as longer maps come out it'd cause trouble too.
she_old
score became obselete when pp was introduced, i suggest to stop caring about it
she_old
i doubt maps will suddenly be worth more pp because the HT scores give less/no score
she_old
It's just that I don't want to see those scores at all. (which is why I'm supporting this request to filter stuff(You have no idea how much HT scores disgust me))
More like, it sucks when interesting good plays get pushed out of top40 and you can no longer see their replay. Like WhiteWolf did an interesting HR pass on Atama but it's impossible to see since all the halftimes pushed it away.
yes im supporting that feature aswell, but because its not the same as completely removing HTloseri wrote:
It's just that I don't want to see those scores at all. (which is why I'm supporting this request to filter stuff(You have no idea how much HT scores disgust me))
Yet a few of those same people choose half-time over real-time because they are more concerned with their stats than they are with showing that they can play a difficult map.buny wrote:
osu is meant to be played by everyone, that's why we have easier maps.TheVileOne wrote:
There is no issue with Half time. If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it, it's too difficult. osu! is meant to be played by everyone, not2010 gifted people. The issue is not with Half time but the map itself. It's not suitably playable without mods.
Competitiveness isn't for everyone, but it is for a lot of people hence why we have harder and harder maps.
I have mixed feelings on this one, because for some people, they might find the map fun in HT, for others it's rankwhoring. And changing it will affect somebody in a negative way. Beating someone's top40 score with HT also shows how both players can't play the map at normal speed too.
I've actually voted "it's fine as it is" even though it's really not, but finding a solution for all is an ever harder challenge. I have no Half-Time scores, and never use it, but I don't support unranking HT completely either. The multiplier is fine too.
The real issue is simple... players do not want to see Half-Time scores overtaking their scores and taking up the top40 and replay slots of people who played very difficult maps at normal speed. But this doesn't justify removal of HT, because both players can't FC the map normally. I also don't enjoy watching Half-Time replays.
So there is one simple solution... set a max achievable rank with HT... Like #41? And grant 0 pp.
This is a thumb-sucked solution, so I am not in anyway implying that my solution is better. It's just something to think about.
EDIT: About rank filtering according to mod, we still have the "viewable replays" issue, I want to see the non-HT replays. So that could work, so long as scores with difficulty reduction are saved as a separate set of 40 replays. And then another set of 40 replays are saved without difficulty reduction. Then the filtering would make more sense.
RaneFire wrote:
EDIT: About rank filtering according to mod, we still have the "viewable replays" issue, I want to see the non-HT replays. So that could work, so long as scores with difficulty reduction are saved as a separate set of 40 replays. And then another set of 40 replays are saved without difficulty reduction. Then the filtering would make more sense.
Make sense but doubt it'll happen
I hate missed notes with a passion. I'd rather watch an FC on HT, than a non-FC on no-mod. Actually, imo, the one that did an FC on HT made a smarter selection of mods to complete the map, than the one that did a non-FC. Picking the right mods in order to get the best score possible is a strategic aspect of the game.
Not being able to pass a map with nomod is not a reason to forbid the use of other mods to place in the ranks. Otherwise, why remove only HT and not every mod with less than 1.00x multiplier (i.e. easier)? While we're at it, along with removing any mod that shows that the map is too hard for you to rank at, why don't we remove non-FCs from the ranks too?
As I see it, the reason this thread exists and targets only HT is because some people want their 50x combo non-FC nomod to give more score/pp than the 1500x combo FC HT.
Not being able to pass a map with nomod is not a reason to forbid the use of other mods to place in the ranks. Otherwise, why remove only HT and not every mod with less than 1.00x multiplier (i.e. easier)? While we're at it, along with removing any mod that shows that the map is too hard for you to rank at, why don't we remove non-FCs from the ranks too?
As I see it, the reason this thread exists and targets only HT is because some people want their 50x combo non-FC nomod to give more score/pp than the 1500x combo FC HT.
she_old
Surely the smartest decision is not having to put any effort into playing to get high ranks vs people who try hard to play hard maps.Marblehead wrote:
I hate missed notes with a passion. I'd rather watch an FC on HT, than a non-FC on no-mod. Actually, imo, the one that did an FC on HT made a smarter selection of mods to complete the map, than the one that did a non-FC. Picking the right mods in order to get the best score possible is a strategic aspect of the game.
Not being able to pass a map with nomod is not a reason to forbid the use of other mods to place in the ranks. Otherwise, why remove only HT and not every mod with less than 1.00x multiplier (i.e. easier)? While we're at it, along with removing any mod that shows that the map is too hard for you to rank at, why don't we remove non-FCs from the ranks too?
As I see it, the reason this thread exists and targets only HT is because some people want their 50x combo non-FC nomod to give more score/pp than the 1500x combo FC HT.
HT is difficulty decreasing so it's an unfair advantage with a too high multiplier to begin with.
NoFail doesn't decrease difficulty the map stays the same.
Easy mod differs per person, some people find it easier, others find it harder. (same with hr)
Halftime make things wayyy easier than you can think. Just look at Freedom Dive; With Halftime it's possible to SS this map (Rorry did 9x100 with), and without mods only ... let's say 10 players can barely pass this map.
While I play sometimes with halftime on this kind of maps, I don't like to see so many of them in the top40. Not only because people can't pass without it, but because they want FC and got a high rank even if they can pass the map.
While I play sometimes with halftime on this kind of maps, I don't like to see so many of them in the top40. Not only because people can't pass without it, but because they want FC and got a high rank even if they can pass the map.
This line of thinking is true for low tempo maps but it stops working above 180~200bpm, which your play history shows that you're not really playing at all.Marblehead wrote:
I hate missed notes with a passion. I'd rather watch an FC on HT, than a non-FC on no-mod. Actually, imo, the one that did an FC on HT made a smarter selection of mods to complete the map, than the one that did a non-FC. Picking the right mods in order to get the best score possible is a strategic aspect of the game.
Your opinion on this will change as soon as you start playing higher speed maps. There is nothing strategic about using HT on a 240bpm map to play it in 180bpm instead; it's just a complete elimination of difficulty to cheat your way up the ranks. While the HT play might still be somewhat challenging depending on the design of the map, it's still multiple pars below the level of what a play on the higher speed requires to even just complete the map.
Getting ranks isn't supposed to be "strategy". Ranks are a straightforward thing. You played better - you rank higher. The problem with the current system is that playing better does not imply getting ranked higher, and this thread is looking for a solution to remedy this situation.
The question is if all the difficulty decreasing mods should receive the same treatment. If the answer is no, then it's clearly a problem with HT's multiplier and we should only be talking about that. If the answer is yes, which means that high ranks with any of these mods shouldn't be awarded anything and/or even be displayed, then why are non-FCs any different?
Getting half of the max combo on any map guarantees that your score will be greater than any HT FC. Why is a nomod play with lower combo than half a better play than a HT FC? Who or what defines which is the better play? Just because you passed the map missing every 10 notes?Aqo wrote:
Getting ranks isn't supposed to be "strategy". Ranks are a straightforward thing. You played better - you rank higher. The problem with the current system is that playing better does not imply getting ranked higher, and this thread is looking for a solution to remedy this situation.
NoFail decreases the difficulty in a way that if it weren't for that mod your score wouldn't have been submitted. Easy mod might not be easier for everyone, but that doesn't mean that someone cannot use it to rank on a map that otherwise he wouldn't. The same applies to SpunOut too. Why is it ok if you rank in top40 with any other of the difficulty decreasing mods and not HT? Just because there are more HT high ranks?loseri wrote:
HT is difficulty decreasing so it's an unfair advantage with a too high multiplier to begin with.
NoFail doesn't decrease difficulty the map stays the same.
Easy mod differs per person, some people find it easier, others find it harder. (same with hr)
Halftime is only cool when playing marathon maps. Otherwise it's useless.
A lot of the arguments against halftime in this thread could also apply to easy mod - like halftime takes out the speed difficulty, easy takes out the aim difficulty. I hope that's not unranked or filtered too D:
Topic Starter
Good point, but easy mod doesn't decrease the actually physical requirements, you still have to move to each note and you still have to click them; unlike halftime.MillhioreF wrote:
A lot of the arguments against halftime in this thread could also apply to easy mod - like halftime takes out the speed difficulty, easy takes out the aim difficulty. I hope that's not unranked or filtered too D:
Also seems like a lot of people seem to be seeing this as black and white, ranked or unranked, replays available or not available. Replays would be available for players in the top rankings with halftime just they're hidden by default, just like how plays without halftime are still available unless you choose to view halftime scores.
People are viewing it aas a one or the other scenario when in-fact we can reach a compramise (both are available rather than a mixture of both - all this does is make none halftime scores more accessible.)
I'd also say that pp can remain calculated using the normal scoreboard, if we can see who is the none-halftime top rank on a map pp doesn't really matter in the end.
But the map still the same; same speed, same AR, same OD etc ...Marblehead wrote:
NoFail decreases the difficulty in a way that if it weren't for that mod your score wouldn't have been submitted.
With HT, not only the speed is lowered, but AR and OD too.
The main difficulty in Freedom Dive is the speed (222bpm) and so the stamina required. With HT it's down to 167bpm, which is A LOT easier.
Passing this map without mods, even with bad acc and low combo is still way better than FCing with halftime. Same for other maps like that.
HT is the only mod which decrease significantly the difficulty (nofail doesn't really decrease it and EasyMode make the map harder on insane diff). I never heard someone saying HT is harder than nomod.
Well yes, NoFail doesn't make the map any easier, but it's "easier" (actually it's certain) to rank with it. And as far as I can understand, this discussion is about ranks.GoldenWolf wrote:
But the map still the same; same speed, same AR, same OD etc ...Marblehead wrote:
NoFail decreases the difficulty in a way that if it weren't for that mod your score wouldn't have been submitted.
I'd love to see your opinion on the matter after you'd try playing some 210~280 bpm maps.Marblehead wrote:
Getting half of the max combo on any map guarantees that your score will be greater than any HT FC. Why is a nomod play with lower combo than half a better play than a HT FC? Who or what defines which is the better play? Just because you passed the map missing every 10 notes?
I think you don't understand this discussion Marblehead because you never actually played any maps that this discussion is relevant to (unless your play history is lying).
Let me give a few ranked examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55560
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/39804
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/50131
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/37292
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40344
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41823
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/50181
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/45074
If you use halftime on an 180bpm map, it simply makes it somewhat easier, but still just about as challenging to FC and get good accuracy on as the nomod version - so in maps like that, your view on the matter that "an HT FC is more impressive than a nomod pass with many misses" is indeed correct.
However above a certain speed par physical limits start playing a big role on playing the map, and adding HT literally breaks the map and takes away a whole layer of difficulty. All of those maps that I linked are examples of maps where the challenge of getting 300s on any two circles in a row is infinitely greater than the challenge of doing so with halftime.
Also please take none of this as offense, you just seem to not be aware of the issue this thread is about.
Nofail doesn't make a map any easier. The difficulty of playing it stays exactly the same. HP is superficial and doesn't really change anything related to the rhythm or aim aspect of osu maps.
EasyMod makes aim and accuracy easier, but the physical limits of playing the map stay exactly the same. You might not need to be as accurate with the cursor and keyboard while playing it, but you're still going to have to click on everything with a relative level of understanding the map the same as a nomod play (other than a few corner cases where the circle size breaks some patterns on the map, like in shotgun symphony. however on modern maps this issue almost never exists so nobody is making a thread about this).
However HalfTime changes the map into a completely different map.
Topic Starter
Tag4 is the only place where nofail/easy scores beat halftime ones - and those aren't even proper examples because they only have 1 peak area, unlike newer ranked maps. back then it was fine because the peak was so catastrophically different from the rest, halftime was on par with nofail but now halftime is just miles ahead at the top level.Marblehead wrote:
Well yes, NoFail doesn't make the map any easier, but it's "easier" (actually it's certain) to rank with it. And as far as I can understand, this discussion is about ranks.GoldenWolf wrote:
But the map still the same; same speed, same AR, same OD etc ...
technically none of them were ever rankedloseri wrote:
And TAG4 maps aren't even rankable anymore.
What do you mean?kriers wrote:
technically none of them were ever ranked
They /do/ show on the ranking, so they *did* get ranked... no?
How did ranking even work in the past. Was it like "hey look this map has circles and stuff, lets rank it"
I wish I played back thenI still don't see why people who don't even use HalfTime are so intent on posting in this thread and voting against unranking it. The mod is fine as it is and it's nice to play around with it on some maps, but does anybody really prefer to rank with it over normaltime? Why can't it be on the same level as autopilot and relax? You can still play with them and have fun with them, nobody would stop you, it just won't produce a score on the ranking. Isn't this win-win? The only potential lose in this are people who think their HT ranks are worth more than normaltime ranks and should appear above them but is there anybody like this?
isn't that the same thing just with a fancier wordloseri wrote:
He means that they were approved but not ranked
she_old
lolAqo wrote:
What do you mean?kriers wrote:
technically none of them were ever ranked
They /do/ show on the ranking, so they *did* get ranked... no?
How did ranking even work in the past. Was it like "hey look this map has circles and stuff, lets rank it"
fix'dloseri wrote:
No because it didn't add to your "Ranked" score in your score rankAqo wrote:
isn't that the same thing just with a fancier word
yes, but approved maps do add to it nowadays
I understand what you're saying, but I don't see its appeal. Now, my bpm limit to FC a map is at around 180-190. Three months ago, that limit was at 150 bpm and at that time I didn't find any meaning in playing and passing any 190 bpm maps to get a B or a C. Now, it's the same. I may be able to pass 220 bpm maps with A,B or C, but I like it better if I FC a 220 bpm map with HT. I don't like playing something that I cannot FC. It's personal preference. Some may like, some may not.Aqo wrote:
I think you don't understand this discussion Marblehead because you never actually played any maps that this discussion is relevant to (unless your play history is lying).
For me HT is fine, but I wouldn't mind the HT multiplier to be finetuned (to 0.10x or something). What I mind is that HT should get a special treatment (unranked, hidden ranks, its own ranking etc) when it is clearly in the same group as other mods. Yes, it is the most powerful of them, but on the other hand so is HD, which a lot of times there are many HD plays above DT plays.
You are referring to gimmicky maps. By now, most long-time players have learned and adjusted to AR10 and OD10, so the only way that mappers have to challenge the player is by creating weird patterns and absurdly high bpm maps. When a map doesn't have a single nomod S in its ranking, like 4D, it is considered gimmicky and HT is fair play imo. The same would apply in an OD10 map with a lot of short spinners and SpunOut. The same applies for the TAG4 that you mentioned.jesus1412 wrote:
Tag4 is the only place where nofail/easy scores beat halftime ones - and those aren't even proper examples because they only have 1 peak area, unlike newer ranked maps. back then it was fine because the peak was so catastrophically different from the rest, halftime was on par with nofail but now halftime is just miles ahead at the top level.
I'm not talking about maps that I can't play (after all, I'm still a mediocre player imo). I'm talking about maps that have only 5-10 nomod FCs. You call them hard, I call them gimmicky.
That's where this whole topic gets dodgy though.Marblehead wrote:
I understand what you're saying, but I don't see its appeal. Now, my bpm limit to FC a map is at around 180-190. Three months ago, that limit was at 150 bpm and at that time I didn't find any meaning in playing and passing any 190 bpm maps to get a B or a C. Now, it's the same. I may be able to pass 220 bpm maps with A,B or C, but I like it better if I FC a 220 bpm map with HT. I don't like playing something that I cannot FC. It's personal preference. Some may like, some may not.
Getting up to 180 speed limit is normal and everybody can do this relatively fast with correct training. Anything up to 180bpm can be considered as "slow".
Between 180bpm and 210bpm is a range which is "slow-fast", that everybody can reach but it will take a ton of training to get there.
210-240bpm is already a range that almost nobody can play correctly other than a few individuals who practiced for years to hours of no end, and even they need rest between plays at those speeds and can't play them well for very long durations. (don't believe me? look at the amount of FCs Atama has)
Anything above 240bpm is the no-zone that nobody can really play correctly. People are able to play short bursts of those bpms with a lot of training depending on how far ahead they can plan and react but everybody hits a wall on this. If you make a map that is just 1000 spaced 1/2 circles on a bpm above 240, there is not a single player in this game who will be able to FC this map, not even cookiezi. Meanwhile with HT that map will be trivial enough to FC even for a casual month-long player.
Remilia-Scarlet and TTTL can easily do above 240 BPM as well as many others
actually I'm focusing on this word as OD is secondary here. A 10-hit denden in taiko can easily become 17 with HT while in standard your bonus increase every 2 spinsGoldenWolf wrote:
_Gezo_ wrote:
the spinners take time and OD into account unlike standard
The spinners in standard take OD into account
not for long kanye
many top players can play this speed for a few seconds (I'm not even talking about streams. Thinking of spaced 1/2s that don't follow ds should give you a better idea of what playing a certain speed well really requires) but have nowhere near enough consistency to play it well for long.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/64010
this map is the most basic map you can imagine. It has nothing special about it. The patterns are simple as hell. It's just some 1/2 circles and some streams that's it.
The map's bpm is 234. There is currently only one person in the world who can even pass this, and he can't FC it without many retries (or, at all? At least, he didn't FC when he tried)
With HT the map becomes trivial enough to FC even for a month-long player given enough retries.
The difference between a HTFC and a regular time pass on this map is worth more than 3 years of practice. Does anyone still think it's fine for a HT score to show above a nomod pass on this?
many top players can play this speed for a few seconds (I'm not even talking about streams. Thinking of spaced 1/2s that don't follow ds should give you a better idea of what playing a certain speed well really requires) but have nowhere near enough consistency to play it well for long.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/64010
this map is the most basic map you can imagine. It has nothing special about it. The patterns are simple as hell. It's just some 1/2 circles and some streams that's it.
The map's bpm is 234. There is currently only one person in the world who can even pass this, and he can't FC it without many retries (or, at all? At least, he didn't FC when he tried)
With HT the map becomes trivial enough to FC even for a month-long player given enough retries.
The difference between a HTFC and a regular time pass on this map is worth more than 3 years of practice. Does anyone still think it's fine for a HT score to show above a nomod pass on this?
i doAqo wrote:
Does anyone still think it's fine for a HT score to show above a nomod pass on this?
do you think a person who can pass this map normaltime would have any bit of problem FCing it halftime?silmarilen wrote:
i do
do you think he'd prefer to show his normaltime passing score on this map or his halftime FC score on this?
the normaltime play clearly requires more skill, and it's a more outstanding performance (by far); is there any logic to letting it rank behind plays much inferior in every possible way or are you just throwing a baseless opinion into the air?
there, no more halftime scores
So now cookiezi passes a hypothetical map A with 10 miss and 97% accuracy and then entire rest of the world can't even pass this map nomod but everybody loves the map so 1000 people FC the map with halftime and cookiezi's score doesn't even show on the ranking.silmarilen wrote:
there, no more halftime scores
Sorry what. You're trying to dodge the problem instead of trying to solve it.
The only logical solution is to unrank halftime. It's a good mod, it allows to enjoy maps in more than one way, just like relax and autopilot. It shouldn't be ranked.
thats too hypothetical to even care about
The worst part in this discussion is that every single person who does not support unranking halftime is a person who's currently not interested in ranking on maps above 210bpm and if one day they'd try to do it I'm sure that at that very moment they'll instantly change their mind and throw a vote into unranking it.
no, the sole reason i dont want halftime unranked is because of my play on the unforgiving
i have plenty of 210+ bpm ranks
i have plenty of 210+ bpm ranks
but that's just silly.silmarilen wrote:
no, the sole reason i dont want halftime unranked is because of my play on the unforgiving
i have plenty of 210+ bpm ranks
Aqo wrote:
If you make a map that is just 1000 spaced 1/2 circles on a bpm above 240, there is not a single player in this game who will be able to FC this map, not even cookiezi. Meanwhile with HT that map will be trivial enough to FC even for a casual month-long player.
=> Alternate.
If there is anybody in this thread who seriously thinks they're capable of playing a map above 210bpm, go and try to FC this:
http://puu.sh/1xPow
It's a basic 215bpm map. If you can't FC this, you can't play 215bpm.
With halftime it's 161bpm, and trivial enough for my grandma to FC.
Please don't misjudge your own abilities. Being able to hit 3 circles every once in a while on 220bpm on a map like mastication numerique doesn't mean you're anywhere near the skill level to play a map at that speed, it just means you can plan a little ahead and have some consistency in your aim and timing.
Halftime breaks maps over 180bpm. The challenge on a map like sousei or atama with HT is completely eliminated. I don't think I even need to explain 4D.
http://puu.sh/1xPow
It's a basic 215bpm map. If you can't FC this, you can't play 215bpm.
With halftime it's 161bpm, and trivial enough for my grandma to FC.
Please don't misjudge your own abilities. Being able to hit 3 circles every once in a while on 220bpm on a map like mastication numerique doesn't mean you're anywhere near the skill level to play a map at that speed, it just means you can plan a little ahead and have some consistency in your aim and timing.
Halftime breaks maps over 180bpm. The challenge on a map like sousei or atama with HT is completely eliminated. I don't think I even need to explain 4D.
this is 230 bpm, its not a lot of notes in a row or anything, but for that i can refer you to hello seattle remix where i fc'd like 30+ notes on 125 bpm 1/4 in a row with jumps in between them (1/4 jumps that is)
Topic Starter
You're saying that as if it would be unranked. Your score would be hidden from the default top40 (silmarilen wrote:
no, the sole reason i dont want halftime unranked is because of my play on the unforgiving
i have plenty of 210+ bpm ranks
it actually is in the default top 40jesus1412 wrote:
You're saying that as if it would be unranked. Your score would be hidden from the default top40 (which it isn't even on so why are you complaining?) and even then it would still be available to view simply be switching to allow halftime mods.silmarilen wrote:
no, the sole reason i dont want halftime unranked is because of my play on the unforgiving
i have plenty of 210+ bpm ranks
the longest pattern on this map is 4 notes. it's just a bunch of bursts of 4 notes. all you need to do to FC that is to be able to plan 4 objects ahead. if this counts as being able to play 230bpm to you then I can play 400bpm.silmarilen wrote:
this is 230 bpm, its not a lot of notes in a row or anything, but for that i can refer you to hello seattle remix where i fc'd like 30+ notes on 125 bpm 1/4 in a row with jumps in between them (1/4 jumps that is)
well like i said, hello seattle
the longest pattern on hello seattle is 3 notes long. all of the long 1/4 segments on it are lined up allowing you to just move over them and predict where the next note is perfectly without having to read anything. the only skills that map requires is being able to plan 3 notes up ahead and to be able to hit 125bpm tempo consistently while flailing your cursor in the direction that notes appear insilmarilen wrote:
well like i said, hello seattle
being able to play it doesn't say anything about your play speed at all other than being able to plan 3 notes ahead on 125bpm. it just shows you can have accuracy on 125bpm with clicking. this kind of map is exactly the sort of map that halftime doesn't really affect at all.
04:38:465 wants to have a talk with you, thats 41 1/4 notes in a row on 125 bpm
you only need to plan 2 notes ahead to play 04:38:465-04:44:225
unless you're telling me you snap to every single circle there.
unless you're telling me you snap to every single circle there.
but you still need the speed
no you don't. being able to do one fast movement doesn't take speed, it only takes planning a little up ahead.silmarilen wrote:
but you still need the speed
I can do fullscreen jumps on 420bpm consistently from one edge of the screen to another if it's just one jump. that doesn't make me able to play 420bpm. there's a huge difference.
to be able to correctly play a certain speed means being able to read and understand every single note on that speed and follow that in your playing. maps are designed to simplify that and make higher speed songs playable with lower speed playing, i.e. for example tablet shredder which is mapped mostly with sliders and lined up circles or only very short segments of 2-3 circles at a time. this allows the map to be played like 140bpm with just a little planing ahead. playing it doesn't mean you can read or play 280bpm perfectly
you seem to not get it, nvm
I wouldn't want half time to be changed in any way.Aqo wrote:
:|
The worst part in this discussion is that every single person who does not support unranking halftime is a person who's currently not interested in ranking on maps above 210bpm and if one day they'd try to do it I'm sure that at that very moment they'll instantly change their mind and throw a vote into unranking it.
more like you seem to not get itsilmarilen wrote:
you seem to not get it, nvm
most maps in this game are designed to be easy and playable by planning ahead a little instead of actually playing at their speed. when a map comes that actually requires the player to play at its speed (again, sousei and atama are good examples) suddenly nobody is able to play them. there's a god damn good reason for this.
the halftime mod simply BREAKS those maps, and converts their speed into small segments that can be planned ahead on and followed easily by anybody. a halftime FC on those maps comes nowhere close to the level of playing those maps at all on normaltime
what silm basically meant: tapping 41 circles on 250 BPM 1/2 (or 125 BPM 1/4) is not easy.Aqo wrote:
more like you seem to not get itsilmarilen wrote:
you seem to not get it, nvm
most maps in this game are designed to be easy and playable by planning ahead a little instead of actually playing at their speed. when a map comes that actually requires the player to play at its speed (again, sousei and atama are good examples) suddenly nobody is able to play them. there's a god damn good reason for this.
the halftime mod simply BREAKS those maps, and converts their speed into small segments that can be planned ahead on and followed easily by anybody. a halftime FC on those maps comes nowhere close to the level of playing those maps at all on normaltime
what you interpreted: I don't even know.
There is nothing different between tapping 1/2s on 250bpm or 1/4s on 125bpm. It's exactly the same thing. If the circles are all close to each other and have no DS changes that you're forced to read then the aim reading you have to do is practically zero speed.
The point is that you can't call this 250bpm, this is not nearly the same speed as what's required to play a map like atama or those others that are actually mapped with 1/2s on that speed.
The point is that you can't call this 250bpm, this is not nearly the same speed as what's required to play a map like atama or those others that are actually mapped with 1/2s on that speed.