TheVileOne wrote:

If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it

This line of thinking is wrong and it's the opposite of logic. The whole point of very challenging maps is to have scores only by the very top, since they're maps that are intended to be played only by a few players anyway, being the "endgame" content.

So yeah +1 to what buny said. That's why different difficulties exist. Not everybody is supposed to be able to play everything.

Aqo wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it

This line of thinking is wrong and it's the opposite of logic. The whole point of very challenging maps is to have scores only by the very top, since they're maps that are intended to be played only by a few players anyway, being the "endgame" content.

+1

This is why it should be unranked/lowered a lot, it allows scrub tier players to compete with top tier players on an unfair level.
If maps are too hard for players then they should just train more, allowing people to disregard hard work to get high ranks is immoral to begin with.

half time already gives only 0.3x score, if people cant pass that with nomod the halftime deserves to be above them. people will recognise the skill of the nomod player anyway

silmarilen wrote:

half time already gives only 0.3x score, if people cant pass that with nomod the halftime deserves to be above them. people will recognise the skill of the nomod player anyway

0.3x is way too much for the average length of maps we have today. Do you really think an FC on 4D or Atama or Pluto with HT is worth nearly that much compared to a nomod run on one of said maps?

Even 0.01x for HT feels way too generous, and as longer maps come out it'd cause trouble too.

Though half time reduces the difficulty of the map immensely, and thus the "hard" parts in nomod become an easy fc, while there might be a numerous amount of "hard" parts.
0.3x is too much in this case.

score became obselete when pp was introduced, i suggest to stop caring about it

I want pp rankings on maps, it sucks to see those noobish HT scores on the leaderboards.

i doubt maps will suddenly be worth more pp because the HT scores give less/no score

It's just that I don't want to see those scores at all. (which is why I'm supporting this request to filter stuff(You have no idea how much HT scores disgust me))

More like, it sucks when interesting good plays get pushed out of top40 and you can no longer see their replay. Like WhiteWolf did an interesting HR pass on Atama but it's impossible to see since all the halftimes pushed it away.

loseri wrote:

It's just that I don't want to see those scores at all. (which is why I'm supporting this request to filter stuff(You have no idea how much HT scores disgust me))

yes im supporting that feature aswell, but because its not the same as completely removing HT

buny wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

There is no issue with Half time. If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it, it's too difficult. osu! is meant to be played by everyone, not 20 10 gifted people. The issue is not with Half time but the map itself. It's not suitably playable without mods.

osu is meant to be played by everyone, that's why we have easier maps.

Competitiveness isn't for everyone, but it is for a lot of people hence why we have harder and harder maps.

Yet a few of those same people choose half-time over real-time because they are more concerned with their stats than they are with showing that they can play a difficult map.

I have mixed feelings on this one, because for some people, they might find the map fun in HT, for others it's rankwhoring. And changing it will affect somebody in a negative way. Beating someone's top40 score with HT also shows how both players can't play the map at normal speed too.

I've actually voted "it's fine as it is" even though it's really not, but finding a solution for all is an ever harder challenge. I have no Half-Time scores, and never use it, but I don't support unranking HT completely either. The multiplier is fine too.

The real issue is simple... players do not want to see Half-Time scores overtaking their scores and taking up the top40 and replay slots of people who played very difficult maps at normal speed. But this doesn't justify removal of HT, because both players can't FC the map normally. I also don't enjoy watching Half-Time replays.

So there is one simple solution... set a max achievable rank with HT... Like #41? And grant 0 pp.

This is a thumb-sucked solution, so I am not in anyway implying that my solution is better. It's just something to think about.

EDIT: About rank filtering according to mod, we still have the "viewable replays" issue, I want to see the non-HT replays. So that could work, so long as scores with difficulty reduction are saved as a separate set of 40 replays. And then another set of 40 replays are saved without difficulty reduction. Then the filtering would make more sense.

RaneFire wrote:

EDIT: About rank filtering according to mod, we still have the "viewable replays" issue, I want to see the non-HT replays. So that could work, so long as scores with difficulty reduction are saved as a separate set of 40 replays. And then another set of 40 replays are saved without difficulty reduction. Then the filtering would make more sense.

Make sense but doubt it'll happen

Nobody watches HT replays anyway, so I don't see the use in storing those.

I hate missed notes with a passion. I'd rather watch an FC on HT, than a non-FC on no-mod. Actually, imo, the one that did an FC on HT made a smarter selection of mods to complete the map, than the one that did a non-FC. Picking the right mods in order to get the best score possible is a strategic aspect of the game.

Not being able to pass a map with nomod is not a reason to forbid the use of other mods to place in the ranks. Otherwise, why remove only HT and not every mod with less than 1.00x multiplier (i.e. easier)? While we're at it, along with removing any mod that shows that the map is too hard for you to rank at, why don't we remove non-FCs from the ranks too?

As I see it, the reason this thread exists and targets only HT is because some people want their 50x combo non-FC nomod to give more score/pp than the 1500x combo FC HT.

Marblehead wrote:

I hate missed notes with a passion. I'd rather watch an FC on HT, than a non-FC on no-mod. Actually, imo, the one that did an FC on HT made a smarter selection of mods to complete the map, than the one that did a non-FC. Picking the right mods in order to get the best score possible is a strategic aspect of the game.

Not being able to pass a map with nomod is not a reason to forbid the use of other mods to place in the ranks. Otherwise, why remove only HT and not every mod with less than 1.00x multiplier (i.e. easier)? While we're at it, along with removing any mod that shows that the map is too hard for you to rank at, why don't we remove non-FCs from the ranks too?

As I see it, the reason this thread exists and targets only HT is because some people want their 50x combo non-FC nomod to give more score/pp than the 1500x combo FC HT.

Surely the smartest decision is not having to put any effort into playing to get high ranks vs people who try hard to play hard maps.

HT is difficulty decreasing so it's an unfair advantage with a too high multiplier to begin with.
NoFail doesn't decrease difficulty the map stays the same.
Easy mod differs per person, some people find it easier, others find it harder. (same with hr)

Halftime make things wayyy easier than you can think. Just look at Freedom Dive; With Halftime it's possible to SS this map (Rorry did 9x100 with), and without mods only ... let's say 10 players can barely pass this map.

While I play sometimes with halftime on this kind of maps, I don't like to see so many of them in the top40. Not only because people can't pass without it, but because they want FC and got a high rank even if they can pass the map.

Marblehead wrote:

I hate missed notes with a passion. I'd rather watch an FC on HT, than a non-FC on no-mod. Actually, imo, the one that did an FC on HT made a smarter selection of mods to complete the map, than the one that did a non-FC. Picking the right mods in order to get the best score possible is a strategic aspect of the game.

This line of thinking is true for low tempo maps but it stops working above 180~200bpm, which your play history shows that you're not really playing at all.

Your opinion on this will change as soon as you start playing higher speed maps. There is nothing strategic about using HT on a 240bpm map to play it in 180bpm instead; it's just a complete elimination of difficulty to cheat your way up the ranks. While the HT play might still be somewhat challenging depending on the design of the map, it's still multiple pars below the level of what a play on the higher speed requires to even just complete the map.

Getting ranks isn't supposed to be "strategy". Ranks are a straightforward thing. You played better - you rank higher. The problem with the current system is that playing better does not imply getting ranked higher, and this thread is looking for a solution to remedy this situation.

The question is if all the difficulty decreasing mods should receive the same treatment. If the answer is no, then it's clearly a problem with HT's multiplier and we should only be talking about that. If the answer is yes, which means that high ranks with any of these mods shouldn't be awarded anything and/or even be displayed, then why are non-FCs any different?

Aqo wrote:

Getting ranks isn't supposed to be "strategy". Ranks are a straightforward thing. You played better - you rank higher. The problem with the current system is that playing better does not imply getting ranked higher, and this thread is looking for a solution to remedy this situation.

Getting half of the max combo on any map guarantees that your score will be greater than any HT FC. Why is a nomod play with lower combo than half a better play than a HT FC? Who or what defines which is the better play? Just because you passed the map missing every 10 notes?

loseri wrote:

HT is difficulty decreasing so it's an unfair advantage with a too high multiplier to begin with.
NoFail doesn't decrease difficulty the map stays the same.
Easy mod differs per person, some people find it easier, others find it harder. (same with hr)

NoFail decreases the difficulty in a way that if it weren't for that mod your score wouldn't have been submitted. Easy mod might not be easier for everyone, but that doesn't mean that someone cannot use it to rank on a map that otherwise he wouldn't. The same applies to SpunOut too. Why is it ok if you rank in top40 with any other of the difficulty decreasing mods and not HT? Just because there are more HT high ranks?

Halftime is only cool when playing marathon maps. Otherwise it's useless.

A lot of the arguments against halftime in this thread could also apply to easy mod - like halftime takes out the speed difficulty, easy takes out the aim difficulty. I hope that's not unranked or filtered too D:

MillhioreF wrote:

A lot of the arguments against halftime in this thread could also apply to easy mod - like halftime takes out the speed difficulty, easy takes out the aim difficulty. I hope that's not unranked or filtered too D:

Good point, but easy mod doesn't decrease the actually physical requirements, you still have to move to each note and you still have to click them; unlike halftime.

Also seems like a lot of people seem to be seeing this as black and white, ranked or unranked, replays available or not available. Replays would be available for players in the top rankings with halftime just they're hidden by default, just like how plays without halftime are still available unless you choose to view halftime scores.

People are viewing it aas a one or the other scenario when in-fact we can reach a compramise (both are available rather than a mixture of both - all this does is make none halftime scores more accessible.)

I'd also say that pp can remain calculated using the normal scoreboard, if we can see who is the none-halftime top rank on a map pp doesn't really matter in the end.

Marblehead wrote:

NoFail decreases the difficulty in a way that if it weren't for that mod your score wouldn't have been submitted.

But the map still the same; same speed, same AR, same OD etc ...
With HT, not only the speed is lowered, but AR and OD too.

The main difficulty in Freedom Dive is the speed (222bpm) and so the stamina required. With HT it's down to 167bpm, which is A LOT easier.
Passing this map without mods, even with bad acc and low combo is still way better than FCing with halftime. Same for other maps like that.

HT is the only mod which decrease significantly the difficulty (nofail doesn't really decrease it and EasyMode make the map harder on insane diff). I never heard someone saying HT is harder than nomod.

GoldenWolf wrote:

Marblehead wrote:

NoFail decreases the difficulty in a way that if it weren't for that mod your score wouldn't have been submitted.

But the map still the same; same speed, same AR, same OD etc ...

Well yes, NoFail doesn't make the map any easier, but it's "easier" (actually it's certain) to rank with it. And as far as I can understand, this discussion is about ranks.

Marblehead wrote:

Getting half of the max combo on any map guarantees that your score will be greater than any HT FC. Why is a nomod play with lower combo than half a better play than a HT FC? Who or what defines which is the better play? Just because you passed the map missing every 10 notes?

I'd love to see your opinion on the matter after you'd try playing some 210~280 bpm maps.

I think you don't understand this discussion Marblehead because you never actually played any maps that this discussion is relevant to (unless your play history is lying).
Let me give a few ranked examples:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55560
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/39804
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/50131
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/37292
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40344
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41823
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/50181
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/45074

If you use halftime on an 180bpm map, it simply makes it somewhat easier, but still just about as challenging to FC and get good accuracy on as the nomod version - so in maps like that, your view on the matter that "an HT FC is more impressive than a nomod pass with many misses" is indeed correct.

However above a certain speed par physical limits start playing a big role on playing the map, and adding HT literally breaks the map and takes away a whole layer of difficulty. All of those maps that I linked are examples of maps where the challenge of getting 300s on any two circles in a row is infinitely greater than the challenge of doing so with halftime.

Also please take none of this as offense, you just seem to not be aware of the issue this thread is about.

Nofail doesn't make a map any easier. The difficulty of playing it stays exactly the same. HP is superficial and doesn't really change anything related to the rhythm or aim aspect of osu maps.
EasyMod makes aim and accuracy easier, but the physical limits of playing the map stay exactly the same. You might not need to be as accurate with the cursor and keyboard while playing it, but you're still going to have to click on everything with a relative level of understanding the map the same as a nomod play (other than a few corner cases where the circle size breaks some patterns on the map, like in shotgun symphony. however on modern maps this issue almost never exists so nobody is making a thread about this).

However HalfTime changes the map into a completely different map.

naps itt

Marblehead wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

But the map still the same; same speed, same AR, same OD etc ...

Well yes, NoFail doesn't make the map any easier, but it's "easier" (actually it's certain) to rank with it. And as far as I can understand, this discussion is about ranks.

Tag4 is the only place where nofail/easy scores beat halftime ones - and those aren't even proper examples because they only have 1 peak area, unlike newer ranked maps. back then it was fine because the peak was so catastrophically different from the rest, halftime was on par with nofail but now halftime is just miles ahead at the top level.

And TAG4 maps aren't even rankable anymore.

loseri wrote:

And TAG4 maps aren't even rankable anymore.

technically none of them were ever ranked

kriers wrote:

technically none of them were ever ranked

What do you mean?
They /do/ show on the ranking, so they *did* get ranked... no?
How did ranking even work in the past. Was it like "hey look this map has circles and stuff, lets rank it" I wish I played back then

I still don't see why people who don't even use HalfTime are so intent on posting in this thread and voting against unranking it. The mod is fine as it is and it's nice to play around with it on some maps, but does anybody really prefer to rank with it over normaltime? Why can't it be on the same level as autopilot and relax? You can still play with them and have fun with them, nobody would stop you, it just won't produce a score on the ranking. Isn't this win-win? The only potential lose in this are people who think their HT ranks are worth more than normaltime ranks and should appear above them but is there anybody like this?

He means that they were approved but not ranked

loseri wrote:

He means that they were approved but not ranked

isn't that the same thing just with a fancier word

Aqo wrote:

loseri wrote:

He means that they were approved but not ranked

isn't that the same thing just with a fancier word

No because it doesn't add to your "Ranked" score in your score rank

Aqo wrote:

kriers wrote:

technically none of them were ever ranked

What do you mean?
They /do/ show on the ranking, so they *did* get ranked... no?
How did ranking even work in the past. Was it like "hey look this map has circles and stuff, lets rank it" I wish I played back then

lol

loseri wrote:

Aqo wrote:

isn't that the same thing just with a fancier word

No because it didn't add to your "Ranked" score in your score rank

fix'd

The score rank is still there though, it's just not used anymore

yes, but approved maps do add to it nowadays

Aqo wrote:

I think you don't understand this discussion Marblehead because you never actually played any maps that this discussion is relevant to (unless your play history is lying).

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see its appeal. Now, my bpm limit to FC a map is at around 180-190. Three months ago, that limit was at 150 bpm and at that time I didn't find any meaning in playing and passing any 190 bpm maps to get a B or a C. Now, it's the same. I may be able to pass 220 bpm maps with A,B or C, but I like it better if I FC a 220 bpm map with HT. I don't like playing something that I cannot FC. It's personal preference. Some may like, some may not.

For me HT is fine, but I wouldn't mind the HT multiplier to be finetuned (to 0.10x or something). What I mind is that HT should get a special treatment (unranked, hidden ranks, its own ranking etc) when it is clearly in the same group as other mods. Yes, it is the most powerful of them, but on the other hand so is HD, which a lot of times there are many HD plays above DT plays.

jesus1412 wrote:

Tag4 is the only place where nofail/easy scores beat halftime ones - and those aren't even proper examples because they only have 1 peak area, unlike newer ranked maps. back then it was fine because the peak was so catastrophically different from the rest, halftime was on par with nofail but now halftime is just miles ahead at the top level.

You are referring to gimmicky maps. By now, most long-time players have learned and adjusted to AR10 and OD10, so the only way that mappers have to challenge the player is by creating weird patterns and absurdly high bpm maps. When a map doesn't have a single nomod S in its ranking, like 4D, it is considered gimmicky and HT is fair play imo. The same would apply in an OD10 map with a lot of short spinners and SpunOut. The same applies for the TAG4 that you mentioned.

I'm not talking about maps that I can't play (after all, I'm still a mediocre player imo). I'm talking about maps that have only 5-10 nomod FCs. You call them hard, I call them gimmicky.

Marblehead wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see its appeal. Now, my bpm limit to FC a map is at around 180-190. Three months ago, that limit was at 150 bpm and at that time I didn't find any meaning in playing and passing any 190 bpm maps to get a B or a C. Now, it's the same. I may be able to pass 220 bpm maps with A,B or C, but I like it better if I FC a 220 bpm map with HT. I don't like playing something that I cannot FC. It's personal preference. Some may like, some may not.

That's where this whole topic gets dodgy though.

Getting up to 180 speed limit is normal and everybody can do this relatively fast with correct training. Anything up to 180bpm can be considered as "slow".

Between 180bpm and 210bpm is a range which is "slow-fast", that everybody can reach but it will take a ton of training to get there.

210-240bpm is already a range that almost nobody can play correctly other than a few individuals who practiced for years to hours of no end, and even they need rest between plays at those speeds and can't play them well for very long durations. (don't believe me? look at the amount of FCs Atama has)

Anything above 240bpm is the no-zone that nobody can really play correctly. People are able to play short bursts of those bpms with a lot of training depending on how far ahead they can plan and react but everybody hits a wall on this. If you make a map that is just 1000 spaced 1/2 circles on a bpm above 240, there is not a single player in this game who will be able to FC this map, not even cookiezi. Meanwhile with HT that map will be trivial enough to FC even for a casual month-long player.

Remilia-Scarlet and TTTL can easily do above 240 BPM as well as many others