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Performance Points

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Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

lolcubes wrote:

We all know what gets taken into account, but we don't know how much.
Nothing being said is based off of random assumptions. Players here tested this. Please go over this thread again. Players literally went ahead and tested farming [Hard]s and reported a significant increase in their PP.
I also went over peppy's weighting list for PP (I will not publish it since he chose to hide it, but I have it for reference) and the issues show very clearly on it: the ways PP weighs plays does not go in anything that resembles a linear line.
i.e.
It's possible to gain very high PP for a relatively easy play
It's possible to gain very low PP for a very difficult play

Sorry if this sounds hostile, but it's really just stating the obvious: PP doesn't work.
PP claims to rate players by their performance: in reality, it doesn't. I've seen players with higher PP than myself perform much worse in MP and others with lower PP perform better. If it was just a marginal difference this would be negligible but this spans to the level of 1000+ pp difference being drastically inconsistent with performance which is absurd. Looking at a player's PP to judge that player's skill feels worthless, you're better off looking at his recent plays or just speccing him.

PP claims to be unfarmable: in reality, since PP gain is tied with rankings that are based on scores, and only takes into account your best one, it's VERY farmable. Players who like to retry the same map a lot get significantly more PP than players who prefer trying out many different maps, even if they have the same average performance.

It's great that peppy wishes to take this system far and make it the best thing ever, and I'm sure the entire community has a lot of trust in him because so far osu! (at least so I believe) has been changing for the better over time lately - which means peppy has what it takes to make PP better eventually as well. However right now PP doesn't function as intended or claimed, and the source for this lies in the bare foundations of the system. Until those are changed, no fine-tuning is going to fix it.

Didn't finish checking all of lolcubes' post yet, but just one specific thing that I can respond to quickly:

lolcubes wrote:

Is getting a SS with HD DT on a hard easier than just getting SS on the insane?
Depending on BPM/OD/map layout: YES. Big yes. Some Insanes are hard to even FC let alone SS, while Hards on the same mapset as them are ridiculously easy to SS with DT, yes. This is not even uncommon; far from it. The worst part of this is that the system doesn't take your retries into account, so if I know a certain hard with DT is within my ability range I can just farm it until that SS happens and the system will make it look like I'm good enough to get that SS on every try, meanwhile some Insanes are outside of many people's ability to even FC reliably or at all, and have an OD that makes gaining even a low accuracy after retries rather impressive compared to that infinite-retry lowdiff (this is especially bad for top-tier players who play with HR) and the system just neglects this.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I actually disagree with you on the "ridiculously easy SS" part with you. Atleast while using double time.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
winber1
4,519 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
no, you don't. You can get top 1000, top 750, maybe even top 500, without being extremely pro by intelligently selecting high play count maps. Most of these high play count maps aren't even that hard to rank on (I'm talking about the Hard diffs. The Insane diffs are really quite hard to usually, but don't give much pp)

I could probably start testing ranking on these hards and seeing how far I can get, but I don't see any fun in that because usually those diffs are easy and not fun for me.

I would say pp has its big flaws, but still is more accurate than score ranking. pp isn't that bad imo.
BlazingFX
83 posts
Joined April 2011
BlazingFX
Pretty crazy. 15 pp for #1 on a 112 play map.

that I just lost :(
Mithos
632 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
I have more motivation to play taiko because I can actually aim for higher ranks without SS/Hardrock/Hidden/DoubleTime mods in effect. Rank #88 in canada and #7101 worldwide is more motivating than a rank in the 20k+ range (especially when you had to SS a bunch of maps to get there).

plus taiko pp loves me
G0r
389 posts
Joined September 2011
G0r

TheVileOne wrote:

It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
This describes professionals in every activity. There's always a bubble of people who are the best, or better, and then a lot of people that can't cut in on them, because they're not as good. What would you prefer? The alternative is that the system should allow everyone to be a pro at any given time without having to take power away from the already existing pros. It would be chaotic, and unfortunately, it doesn't make sense for competition. It's no side effect, it's the core effect of a skill game in development.

Futher, I can't stress enough how little sense it is to say that something is farming if only the best players can do it. It's as if the only things that don't qualify as farming are the things that only one man ever did right.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

TheVileOne wrote:

It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.

Basically, you're saying the following:

You can't be pro without being pro.
Tables
20 posts
Joined January 2012
Tables

Zarerion wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.

Basically, you're saying the following:

You can't be pro without being pro.

Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.

/hopeimadesense
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

iFlipTables wrote:

Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.

/hopeimadesense
If you consider pp system bad because people who are better than others get more pp than those because they rank higher, you didn't really understand the whole idea of it.
G0r
389 posts
Joined September 2011
G0r

iFlipTables wrote:

Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.

/hopeimadesense
-_- You made no more sense than the other guy! XD The whole idea of a ranking system is that better players knock worse players out of the top positions. Of course your score will be beaten by other scores! It doesn't mean there's something wrong, it just means you've got more goals to attain.
Mythras
255 posts
Joined February 2010
Mythras
played 6 straight hours today doing DT + HD hards DT HR normals DT hards HD SS hards and SS insanes (and a couple top 10 normals)

the insane SS had 360k+ plays = 0 pp (rank 119)
one of the DT hards I got rank 8 = 3 pp, the rest 0 pp
the DT + HD hard = 1 pp (only rank 50 something 98.70% acc)
normal DT HR = 0 pp (rank 6 and rank 10)

it's very frustrating lol orz

I'm getting better though, it's like there's a soft cap on skill or something.

It seems to get high pp you need it all, FC high acc high rank and bonus pp for mods

I dunno the system is not perfect but it still means more than the scoring system did.

Also look at Sette, this guy plays DT + HD hards for a living, most people say he doesn't deserve his rank I say bullshit lol, go try and DT HD SS some of the shit he has done. He is amazingly good. Lots of DT + HD SS hards are WAY harder than SS insanes (and lets be honest, when I say insane i'm not talking about shit only 5 people in the game can even FC.)
Tables
20 posts
Joined January 2012
Tables

G0r wrote:

iFlipTables wrote:

Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.

/hopeimadesense
-_- You made no more sense than the other guy! XD The whole idea of a ranking system is that better players knock worse players out of the top positions. Of course your score will be beaten by other scores! It doesn't mean there's something wrong, it just means you've got more goals to attain.

the point is that you can farm it.. using mods.. that's what i'm trying to say.. good players just throw double time on S it and beat everyone, that's the "bubble" he's referring to. I'm trying to explain what he's saying, i'm not agreeing with him.
Winshley
osu! Alumni
2,384 posts
Joined May 2011
Winshley
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/20566
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/38289

Played those 2 maps and my pp went skyrocketed. @_@;; One of them is apparently above my "He's a Pirate" pp.
Icyteru
535 posts
Joined August 2011
Icyteru
Farming is obviously possible, because farming = playing an extremely long amount.

and by playing an extremely long amount, you improve.

You are improving, thus making your pp go higher.

which means by farming, your pp goes higher.

but isn't that the point of pp? to go higher as you improve?
winber1
4,519 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1

Unkind wrote:

Also look at Sette, this guy plays DT + HD hards for a living, most people say he doesn't deserve his rank I say bullshit lol, go try and DT HD SS some of the shit he has done. He is amazingly good. Lots of DT + HD SS hards are WAY harder than SS insanes (and lets be honest, when I say insane i'm not talking about shit only 5 people in the game can even FC.)
He doesn't end of story. There's no way he matches up with the other pros. He's decent, and pretty much everyone out there agrees, but most people say he doesn't deserve his rank because he really doesn't compare to other pros who should have his rank (e.g. Rucker, or Niko- or other people), but that's just the flaw of pp
Mithos
632 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
TheVileOne is trying to say that with this system, the top 500 are not going to change much because as more maps come out, the top 500's pp will go up higher and higher, and the only way to take a spot is to constantly maintain dozens and dozens of DT/HD/FL/HR maps against people who are much better than you. It's like climbing Mount Everest and the people who already made it to the top get to shoot paintballs at you, making it much more difficult for you to finish and join them.

The only way to fix this is to either put a cage over the top 500 overall players and give them their own map rankings, or make it easier to take PP from someone who has a lot of it.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Mithost wrote:

TheVileOne is trying to say that with this system, the top 500 are not going to change much because as more maps come out, the top 500's pp will go up higher and higher, and the only way to take a spot is to constantly maintain dozens and dozens of DT/HD/FL/HR maps against people who are much better than you. It's like climbing Mount Everest and the people who already made it to the top get to shoot paintballs at you, making it much more difficult for you to finish and join them.

The only way to fix this is to either put a cage over the top 500 overall players and give them their own map rankings, or make it easier to take PP from someone who has a lot of it.
isn't this kind of the purpose of pp? that the best get rewarded?
G0r
389 posts
Joined September 2011
G0r
This simply cannot be true... I personally used to be close to rank 5000 not long ago. I was stuck there, and I needed to improve some skills before I could get any further. I practiced hard, and finally I felt myself playing better again. Within a couple weeks I was just above 2000. That's not a bubble... I don't have a lot of maps in my Osu! list. I only have something like 600 S scores. I've simply gotten good rankings in a lot of the maps that I have. I never felt like I needed to high rank more maps to get PP. I've always gotten a ton of PP for every individual high rank on just the few maps I have. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if ranking more maps somehow degrades your PP gain. My point is that if I can grow 3000 ranks in about a couple weeks, then anyone can do it. If you're stuck somewhere, then it's not the pros faults for shooting you down. You're just not getting any better.

Also, I have to comment on Sette. I had never really seen this guy play, so I wanted to see how average he really was, because everyone said his rank wasn't indicative of his skill. I went and spectated him for an hour, and I can tell you that I saw him do some amazing things... I don't know every map by name, but I saw him DT HD some really crazy hard insane maps. I personally couldn't touch how well he was playing these maps. I saw him DT HD SS this map that I could barely follow. So I don't know if that was his awesome insane map day, or something, but I don't think I saw him play one hard in that entire time.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
i cant gain 3k ranks
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
The things that as a map get older it give less pp is a.....
ok, if a map get older it doesn't mean it get easier. Instead it may get harder get higher ranks (even if it's harder to lose them).
Plus, i don't see how a many years old map can give many points while harder(much) months old maps give no pp.

Said this, pp shouldn't depend on map age and depend less or play counts of a map and depend much more on how the play went.
SS Bonus is too high, 2 mods FC with decent Acc( 90%+) is still way harder than Perfect without mods on most maps. And 1-mod Almost Perfect (98%+) is too harder than a Perfect without mods, this time in all maps.
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
if a map gets older has 0 direct influence on how much pp you gain and i still dont get why people keep thinking that
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Someone said that it had influence.
I still don't get the other things.
G0r
389 posts
Joined September 2011
G0r

silmarilen wrote:

i cant gain 3k ranks
Only because you're already rank 999. ;P

Toostrong.
Valentiino
1,945 posts
Joined June 2011
Valentiino

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Someone said that it had influence.
I still don't get the other things.
Only the age of the score you make has influence. Age of the map has nothing to do with anything
sCam
215 posts
Joined December 2011
sCam
So I decided to play some new maps today;

Got like 6 pp for most of the Insanes i passes with FC or 1 less than fc(dosen't matter they were under 500 rank)
Then I did this on a Hard, and got like 25 pp xD

SPOILER
Nah, I'm just messing with yah, I know there's a bonus for SS, and FC.

Just saying, if you guys want some pp, go SS that map :P
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

sCam wrote:

Just saying, if you guys want some pp, go SS that map :P
Pretty much this. If you check my profile, you will notice that I actually haven't been playing a lot of maps, I am only SSing them. Some are harder, some are easier, some give more pp, some give less pp. I am pretty sure I can go much further but I don't really have time to play at all anymore so...

Also, if you are always in doubt of will the map give you pp or not, you can always check a random top100 guy and see his best pp gains in top ranks. Try playing those maps (usually SS or hidden SS, most of the time hidden SS will yield you top40 as well, if not more) and you will see your pp skyrocket.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Valentiino wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Someone said that it had influence.
I still don't get the other things.
Only the age of the score you make has influence. Age of the map has nothing to do with anything
I'm not pointing to the age of the maps, neither score.
I'm pointing to the fact the making new scores on some maps give no pp. where some even MUCH easier maps give many pp...
See how hard give more pp than Insanes many times?
there's surely something to fix.
Liut
777 posts
Joined June 2011
Liut
most of old songs with low combo gives lots of pp cause the most of the people that passed those maps did it with sucky accuracy
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
because they are horribly timed and just suck in general, some old normal/hards are actually harder to get 99+ on that most insanes from these days
Liut
777 posts
Joined June 2011
Liut

silmarilen wrote:

because they are horribly timed and just suck in general, some old normal/hards are actually harder to get 99+ on that most insanes from these days
yep
Jordan
1,037 posts
Joined December 2010
Jordan
I'm losing 4pp a day since 3 days. EXACTLY 4pp a day. I don't understand why... It's not like I can stay every day playing osu! to get them back =_=
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
i have only been gaining pp over the past couple of days.
knowing which maps to play to get pp really helps.
Timekiller
84 posts
Joined January 2010
Timekiller
Fun how nobody seems to notice it yet, but rankings by score are completely hacked up starting today.

peppy wrote:

[fix]Change approved maps to add to ranked score (no special treatment given to approved anymore).
So, no turning back now, pp WILL be the primary ranking criteria. Yet, it's going to be fun for now.
*walks off to FC all marathons he has*
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
oh wow, that explains how im suddenly at 6.7bil score. so i wasnt delusional
BlazingFX
83 posts
Joined April 2011
BlazingFX

Jordan wrote:

I'm losing 4pp a day since 3 days. EXACTLY 4pp a day. I don't understand why... It's not like I can stay every day playing osu! to get them back =_=
Its K i've been losing 19 a day. Most from new maps. Some from who knows where
Owait only lost 17 today.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

BlazingFX wrote:

Jordan wrote:

I'm losing 4pp a day since 3 days. EXACTLY 4pp a day. I don't understand why... It's not like I can stay every day playing osu! to get them back =_=
Its K i've been losing 19 a day. Most from new maps. Some from who knows where
Owait only lost 17 today.
I had this as well until I stopped just going for the fc/SS. Once I reached a somewhat high rank on a map and kept it, I found myself not losing almost anything. Keep in mind that first day a map is ranked it's pp will be highly unstable. Sometimes for a regular SS you might gain like 30 pp (on my pp level) but then you will lose quite a bit after the next recalculation. This is normal though.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
pp system is working good but it still a big joke and many inbalance in measurement of skill of player
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
you go talk about approval and ranked somewhere else

i mean the judgement of this system? my best record was a hard beatmap i played with double time...
i got top 20 ranks in marathons ...
i FC insane diffs with flashlight over 600 combos too i think and i SSed a val0108 map without mods

and the flashlight playes did not even register in the best plays list, i wonder if they even count

its maybe good but it seems so fake and generated, its not a good result
Last edited by Hanyuu , edited 1 time in total.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
besides people even talking about farming PP

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/klubek he is a noob
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes


Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
wow better performance

more points

it only needs a little adjustement to filter out to good from the better
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
So something peppy is doing because of a decision based on performance points is not something related to performance points. I don't understand that at all. I mean this decision is like trying to put out a fire by pouring gas on it. It's just a horrible idea!
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
you can not judge this because your not a good enough player but in high level play and even very known players they will receive a worst rating because of how things are.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
How does changing the approved score into ranked score have anything to do with pp?
It doesn't. Both categories were giving pp. Please, stay on topic, if you want to discuss score of approvals going towards your ranked score, open a new thread about it.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
it doesnt matter at all if approved or ranked lolcubes

i just say this system need alot more fine tuning

YOU CAN NEVER have a hard player OUTCLASS insane player and never even harder outclass worse and even harder and eveeen harder and ... theres allways a step above and putting mods on a map and abusing seems common to gain ranks
Last edited by Hanyuu , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Hanyuu wrote:

it doesnt matter at all if approved or ranked lolcubes

i just say this system need alot more fine tuning
I know, but some people were getting the wrong idea. I had to clean this thread up a little bit. :v
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
pp works perfectly as it does exactly what peppy intended it to do. just because we think it is supposed to show our skill based on map difficulty does not mean that was peppy's intent

/thread
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
WTF does this have to do with anything. I'm a mapper/modder. We have a balanced system and it needs to be fair. This decision is reckless on peppy's part and the rules don't have any guidelines for changing approval maps for them to be balanced under this new system. There was no discussion about it. peppy just decided to do it, screw the consequences.

Approval maps were NEVER intended to count towards official ranking.
Last edited by TheVileOne , edited 1 time in total.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
well im a player

and im just thinking about it.. beside i dont really care about pp im just playing my way im just saying it is not so perfect as it should be
Last edited by Hanyuu , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

TheVileOne wrote:

WTF does this have to do with anything. I'm a mapper/modder. We have a balanced system and it needs to be fair. This decision is reckless on peppy's part and the rules don't have any guidelines for changing approval maps for them to be balanced under this new system. There was no discussion about it. peppy just decided to do it, screw the consequences.

lolcubes wrote:

How does changing the approved score into ranked score have anything to do with pp?
It doesn't. Both categories were giving pp. Please, stay on topic, if you want to discuss score of approvals going towards your ranked score, open a new thread about it.
This change doesn't affect pp at all.
Refer to this post about what this thread is about: p/1743663
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

TheVileOne wrote:

WTF does this have to do with anything. I'm a mapper/modder. We have a balanced system and it needs to be fair. This decision is reckless on peppy's part and the rules don't have any guidelines for changing approval maps for them to be balanced under this new system. There was no discussion about it. peppy just decided to do it, screw the consequences.

Approval maps were NEVER intended to count towards official ranking.
This was planned like 2938384 years ago. Oh, and it was never intended to make a approval section in the first place afaik, but was made so there were no imba score difference when paraparamax got approved. Then Approved turned into the place to throw maps that didnt fit the ranking criteria.


WELL ANYHOW, this isn't related to pp, yeah.

On-topic: pp is about performance. If you're looking for skill, you wont find it in some numbers, just go spec people and determine yourself.
HD+DT'ing a bunch of [Hard]'s could be concidered a great performance anyway, so saying "lolnoob" is kind of harsh. Still, pp works well, other than some weird mapweightings. (repeating stuff already said in thread like a baws)
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Okay stop being ignorant. My whole point for these things is that pp should not be applied for approval maps. Is this not related to pp?

Stop acting like I don't know what I'm talking about.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Why shouldn't it be? Approved maps aren't super gimmicky or anything. Just maps with high score/combo/song length.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
BUT your writing like that omg. what does approval have to do with any TV size that is even as hard or harder. ok its longer

you dont even play

AND THERE ARE SOME MARATHONS THAT ARE HARD DIFFS ACTUALLY BUT THEY APPROVED BECAUSE OF LENGHT
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I feel like I'm repeating myself.

Approval maps should not count towards pp because they do not follow the rules of ranked maps.

I can't say it any simpler than that.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
they do follow the rules of ranked maps, the only thing thats different is the max score and difficulty spread
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
90% of approval maps follows the rules of ranked maps save length or difficulty. Neither of these points makes an approval map less qualified to be rated for pp.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
omg
he dont even know what approval maps are
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

TheVileOne wrote:

Approval maps should not count towards pp because they do not follow the rules of ranked maps.
Except for the length/score rule, which rules they don't follow?
If you are saying this just because rule A needs changing, then you aren't bringing anything constructive, only destructive. Rather go poke the rules in this case, which I am sure they will get poked because of this change.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
They can have a single difficulty, and do not follow the full mapset rule.


Edit: These are three rules they don't follow. I have already proven my point here. In order to rated fairly towards ranked maps, they need to follow the same rules.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
How does this affect pp?
pp is based per difficulty, not highest difficulty/highest score in the mapset. This is the difference between ranked score and pp as well.

TheVileOne wrote:

I have already proven my point here. In order to rated fairly towards ranked maps, they need to follow the same rules.
You didn't prove anything. You are also very wrong. I think.
If you think you're right, that's ok too. Just don't demand anything without completely understanding everything, ok?
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu

TheVileOne wrote:

They can have a single difficulty, and do not follow the full mapset rule.

ok then... explain the REALLY REASON why approval maps should not count into performance
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers
I love popcorn and a quarrel.


Don't mind me *munch* *munch*
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
hi kriers
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
Hey i just S rank this approval map and it was so hard and difficult to play and im so HAPPY i even PASSED it. then this guy, it should not count ..
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF

CXu wrote:

hi kriers
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Well, let's just keep on topic now, if possible, please.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Balance!

Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

TheVileOne wrote:

I feel like I'm repeating myself.

Approval maps should not count towards pp because they do not follow the rules of ranked maps.

I can't say it any simpler than that.
approval maps are hard so they shouldn't count towards skill level omg I can't pass pls i cri


TheVileOne wrote:

Balance!

Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
they don't give more pp your points are invalid go away.
Last edited by jesse1412 , edited 1 time in total.
BrokenArrow
2,237 posts
Joined June 2010
BrokenArrow
Hanyuu this is getting nowhere
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
scrolls back a few pages~

Hanyuu wrote:

pp system is working good but it still a big joke and many inbalance in measurement of skill of player
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu

TheVileOne wrote:

Balance!

Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
DO YOU EVEN HAVE ANY IDEA???? YOUR ONLY ASSUMPTIONS YOUR NOT EVEN PLAYIN SEREA GOT 1 PP FOR FREEDOM DIVE
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

TheVileOne wrote:

Balance!

Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
Fun fact: this gives a ridiculous amount of pp.
And by your logic it's not fair that [Insane] should give more pp than [Easy] because newer players can't get the pp from the [Insane]
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

TheVileOne wrote:

Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
PP is not based on score. Most of the approval maps give considerably less PP too, so you are wrong on that account as well. I have a number of 1-3x100 on some approval maps and they gave me maybe half of pp I gained from SSing a hard with hidden and DT. Please, if you are unsure about how pp works, check the wiki. Don't assume that harder = more pp, because while it should be like this, there is just not a good way to "describe" hard into numbers so it affects pp like it probably should, atleast not yet.
You are also checking star ratings which have NOTHING to do with pp, absolutely nothing.
friendok58
friendok58

Hanyuu wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

Balance!

Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
DO YOU EVEN HAVE ANY IDEA???? YOUR ONLY ASSUMPTIONS YOUR NOT EVEN PLAYIN SEREA GOT 1 PP FOR FREEDOM DIVE



i got 0pp from this : (
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu

lolcubes wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
PP is not based on score. Most of the approval maps give considerably less PP too, so you are wrong on that account as well. I have a number of 1-3x100 on some approval maps and they gave me maybe half of pp I gained from SSing a hard with hidden and DT. Please, if you are unsure about how pp works, check the wiki. Don't assume that harder = more pp, because while it should be like this, there is just not a good way to "describe" hard into numbers so it affects pp like it probably should, atleast not yet.
You are also checking star ratings which have NOTHING to do with pp, absolutely nothing.

pp system is working good but it still a big joke and many inbalance in measurement of skill of player
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
pp stands for performance points. Performance =/= skills.
There still seems to be a misunderstanding about this: pp is not there to measure how skilled you are in osu!
Unless my English comprehension skills sucks and Performance can in some way be read as "skill"
Last edited by CXu , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Pretty much what CXu said here. Is still a bit off and we all know it too, just give it time I guess.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
but it shows the players with more PP over the rest

and if i remember right this was the so long awaited system to show who is really good because before it was "rank whoring" and "map farming" for score.

now i hear it does not mean how good a player is

what the hell really
Last edited by Hanyuu , edited 1 time in total.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Oh really they aren't imbalanced. So that's why half of cookiezi's top performances are approval difficulties. Hmm out of all of his scores, half of the top of the top are approvals. (The top 3 are approvals) Explain this to me.
Last edited by TheVileOne , edited 1 time in total.
friendok58
friendok58


topic so good makes me lol
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Explain... What?
He did a great job ranking high/first place/whatever on a hard map --> he was rewarded pp for said score.
I don't see your problem.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Sigh.
I might unlock this tomorrow. This is getting nowhere fast.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Lets give this another try.
Froslass
Beatmap Nominator
9,342 posts
Joined July 2008
Froslass
go the hell away friendok

locking again until you're banned
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