i dont think you onderstand what we mean with amount of plays
we are talking about this
not this
we are talking about this
not this
forum
Performance Points
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ahh, fantastic, thank you.silmarilen wrote:
i dont think you onderstand what we mean with amount of plays
we are talking about this
not this
So you think a B rank #65 on The Big Black is worth less than SSing a random old [Hard] with mods?Valentiino wrote:
So you actually do expect to be rewarded for getting a rank #65 with a B and stuff?
Because that's what PP thinks.
He/She(?) obviously didn't refer to something like that.Aqo wrote:
So you think a B rank #65 on The Big Black is worth less than SSing a random old [Hard] with mods?Valentiino wrote:
So you actually do expect to be rewarded for getting a rank #65 with a B and stuff?
Because that's what PP thinks.
Could you guys PLEASE stop fighting but rather give constructive feedback so peppy has something to work with?
edit: Come to think of it, maybe we should rather close this thread now. Everything was said more than only once. peppy knows our opinions, and we can't do anything but wait for him to take action anyways.
All constructive feedback was already written down 10 times by different people and is still being ignored so what's the point.Zarerion wrote:
Could you guys PLEASE stop fighting but rather give constructive feedback so peppy has something to work with?
Since the system values only your top play per map and not your average play, farming maps helps you get better rating. Thus it's farmable. Instead of needing to farm many maps as with scores you need to farm the same one map, it's still farming.
Since the system values ranking, playing old maps gives better rating than new maps, because they usually have more total plays and yet less plays by people who were actually capable of making it into the top rankings.
Since the system values accuracy highly, but ignores retries, and does not value (enough) the difficulty of getting high accuracy on high OD/speed/circle amount, the most effective way to rate high is to farm the top easy maps (i.e. [Hard]s, or anything below-top-diff in a mapset) and get the highest reward with minimal effort.
Since the system relies on scores (for ranking), which are already known to be broken, it does not give correct input in any way at all. A play with 99.9% accuracy but a random sliderbreak in the middle of the map is worth less than a play with 95% accuracy and many miss in the start and end that just happened to manage to luckily get a large combo in the middle. The fact that only top #500 plays are taken into account also supports this issue. This is an arbitrary number that was selected to lessen the load on calculating PP, why couldn't you make it a dynamic number based on the amount of plays on a map? 1/250 amount of plays seems like a good amount. For some maps it would mean you'd need a rank even high than #500 but it'll be fair and manageable, while for others even a #1000 rank would qualify for calculation but with the amount of plays on them it'd be reasonable.
Seriously tho fix the system you would need to:
1. Stop taking the amount of plays on a map into account, because the amount of plays does not truly represent how contested it is, it only represents how popular the song is 90% of the time. If you're really intent on taking the amount of plays into account, at least give different weighting for each play. i.e. plays by people with higher rating would be worth more for the map's contestedness weighting over plays by people with low rating. (i.e. just because 9001 noobs plays a random [Hard] of a miku song and sucked on it doesn't mean a high rank on it should worth more than a high rank on a map that silvia/niko-/rucker all tried to rank on. a play from one of those guys should add 1000 times more "contentedness" weighting than most other average players)
2. Stop taking only the "best play" into account as long as this system still relies on map rankings that are based on the current score system. Your top score on a map does not truly represent your best play. Nor are most people usually able to reproduce their best play on a map. You should take/value every play on a map and not just the best recorded one. (i.e. bad plays should lose you pp. yes. deal with it. until this happens PP will only be a random farmable metric and not a true display of a player's average performance like it claims to be)
3. Give much higher value to OD. There is a sky of difference between getting high accuracy on anything below OD8, OD8, OD9, and OD10 (which happens with HR).
First of all, stop being so hostile in this thread because I will lock it.
Second, before you think something is obviously wrong, just think that you actually have no idea what is going on exactly. We all know what gets taken into account, but we don't know how much. This is a problem because you can't just come with "baww this map gives me 0 pp, while easy map x gives me 1 pp", because you obviously don't understand how the system works.
Get a #1 on a new map and hold it. You will see that you actually gain considerate amount of pp, and that pp will not vanish. Just check my top pp yield for example, the map was ranked when, a week ago? It's still there...(and I'm not even #1 lol)
Also, top score on a map does represent your best play, why do you think it doesn't? I don't follow.
Afaik, any decent acc (96+) with HR already yields you more pp, so I dunno how is this really a problem.
All of this has already been said anyway, let's stop repeating ourselves.
Second, before you think something is obviously wrong, just think that you actually have no idea what is going on exactly. We all know what gets taken into account, but we don't know how much. This is a problem because you can't just come with "baww this map gives me 0 pp, while easy map x gives me 1 pp", because you obviously don't understand how the system works.
No, this is wrong. Farming maps doesn't help you get better rating, but playing the same map over and over until you get best score you can does. You need to decide what to call farming here, because you said "farming maps" which is awfully ambiguous and not clearly defined.Aqo wrote:
Since the system values only your top play per map and not your average play, farming maps helps you get better rating. Thus it's farmable. Instead of needing to farm many maps as with scores you need to farm the same one map, it's still farming.
This is not always the case. You are generalizing too much. Please stop thinking on a case per case basis and start thinking on the grand scale.Aqo wrote:
Since the system values ranking, playing old maps gives better rating than new maps, because they usually have more total plays and yet less plays by people who were actually capable of making it into the top rankings.
Get a #1 on a new map and hold it. You will see that you actually gain considerate amount of pp, and that pp will not vanish. Just check my top pp yield for example, the map was ranked when, a week ago? It's still there...(and I'm not even #1 lol)
And tell me, why is this wrong? You didn't get a full combo if you sliderbroke, I really see no problem here. Just because I agree with this, and you disagree with this doesn't make it wrong.Aqo wrote:
Since the system relies on scores (for ranking), which are already known to be broken, it does not give correct input in any way at all. A play with 99.9% accuracy but a random sliderbreak in the middle of the map is worth less than a play with 95% accuracy and many miss in the start and end that just happened to manage to luckily get a large combo in the middle.
You see, you are talking 90% here. What about other 10%? You know, when you are making a system like this, you need to cover pretty much everything, 100%. I do agree that hards are valued a little too much at the moment, but think a little. Is getting a SS with HD DT on a hard easier than just getting SS on the insane? I would say no, very rare cases where it is. Since everyone is doing this with mods, this is what actually makes hards worth more than it probably should. If you ask me, the solution here is not to cut the number of plays, but to cut the number of mods giving extra pp. And again, since I have no idea what the values are, I have no idea how to change it. All I can say is "I think the mods are worth a little too much in my opinion".Aqo wrote:
1. Stop taking the amount of plays on a map into account, because the amount of plays does not truly represent how contested it is, it only represents how popular the song is 90% of the time. If you're really intent on taking the amount of plays into account, at least give different weighting for each play. i.e. plays by people with higher rating would be worth more for the map's contestedness weighting over plays by people with low rating. (i.e. just because 9001 noobs plays a random [Hard] of a miku song and sucked on it doesn't mean a high rank on it should worth more than a high rank on a map that silvia/niko-/rucker all tried to rank on. a play from one of those guys should add 1000 times more "contentedness" weighting than most other average players)
There are 2 problems with this. If you take all plays, then people will be afraid to play in general. Sometimes, even high level players, just go on a lulz spree and play like shit not giving a damn. This would destroy their pp completely. Another one is that it would collect so much data that pp system would be completely useless until you get to the daily update point, where it actually shows your current PP. Loss is calculated once a day, and if stuff changes so much, you have no idea where you are, since you only see the gains. Don't be unreasonable to demand that it updates in real time, because just think a little, it has to calculate every single play that happens any moment for everyone here. We are talking astronomical calculations here.Aqo wrote:
2. Stop taking only the "best play" into account as long as this system still relies on map rankings that are based on the current score system. Your top score on a map does not truly represent your best play. Nor are most people usually able to reproduce their best play on a map. You should take/value every play on a map and not just the best recorded one. (i.e. bad plays should lose you pp. yes. deal with it. until this happens PP will only be a random farmable metric and not a true display of a player's average performance like it claims to be)
Also, top score on a map does represent your best play, why do you think it doesn't? I don't follow.
OD doesn't affect pp at all btw. Not directly into the calculations atleast, it does make some stuff harder to SS, but be reasonable. There are times where maps really need lower OD because the timing derps all over the place or the song is completely awkward to play because you don't hear beats, etc.Aqo wrote:
3. Give much higher value to OD. There is a sky of difference between getting high accuracy on anything below OD8, OD8, OD9, and OD10 (which happens with HR).
Afaik, any decent acc (96+) with HR already yields you more pp, so I dunno how is this really a problem.
Why did you write your post then?Aqo wrote:
All constructive feedback was already written down 10 times by different people and is still being ignored so what's the point.
All of this has already been said anyway, let's stop repeating ourselves.
both examples you didnt get an fc, but one of them you had 1 sliderbreak in the middle and the other you had a ton of misses at the start/endlolcubes wrote:
And tell me, why is this wrong? You didn't get a full combo if you sliderbroke, I really see no problem here. Just because I agree with this, and you disagree with this doesn't make it wrong.Aqo wrote:
Since the system relies on scores (for ranking), which are already known to be broken, it does not give correct input in any way at all. A play with 99.9% accuracy but a random sliderbreak in the middle of the map is worth less than a play with 95% accuracy and many miss in the start and end that just happened to manage to luckily get a large combo in the middle.
My bad then because I didn't read correctly.
Shame on me.
Shame on me.
Nothing being said is based off of random assumptions. Players here tested this. Please go over this thread again. Players literally went ahead and tested farming [Hard]s and reported a significant increase in their PP.lolcubes wrote:
We all know what gets taken into account, but we don't know how much.
I also went over peppy's weighting list for PP (I will not publish it since he chose to hide it, but I have it for reference) and the issues show very clearly on it: the ways PP weighs plays does not go in anything that resembles a linear line.
i.e.
It's possible to gain very high PP for a relatively easy play
It's possible to gain very low PP for a very difficult play
Sorry if this sounds hostile, but it's really just stating the obvious: PP doesn't work.
PP claims to rate players by their performance: in reality, it doesn't. I've seen players with higher PP than myself perform much worse in MP and others with lower PP perform better. If it was just a marginal difference this would be negligible but this spans to the level of 1000+ pp difference being drastically inconsistent with performance which is absurd. Looking at a player's PP to judge that player's skill feels worthless, you're better off looking at his recent plays or just speccing him.
PP claims to be unfarmable: in reality, since PP gain is tied with rankings that are based on scores, and only takes into account your best one, it's VERY farmable. Players who like to retry the same map a lot get significantly more PP than players who prefer trying out many different maps, even if they have the same average performance.
It's great that peppy wishes to take this system far and make it the best thing ever, and I'm sure the entire community has a lot of trust in him because so far osu! (at least so I believe) has been changing for the better over time lately - which means peppy has what it takes to make PP better eventually as well. However right now PP doesn't function as intended or claimed, and the source for this lies in the bare foundations of the system. Until those are changed, no fine-tuning is going to fix it.
Didn't finish checking all of lolcubes' post yet, but just one specific thing that I can respond to quickly:
Depending on BPM/OD/map layout: YES. Big yes. Some Insanes are hard to even FC let alone SS, while Hards on the same mapset as them are ridiculously easy to SS with DT, yes. This is not even uncommon; far from it. The worst part of this is that the system doesn't take your retries into account, so if I know a certain hard with DT is within my ability range I can just farm it until that SS happens and the system will make it look like I'm good enough to get that SS on every try, meanwhile some Insanes are outside of many people's ability to even FC reliably or at all, and have an OD that makes gaining even a low accuracy after retries rather impressive compared to that infinite-retry lowdiff (this is especially bad for top-tier players who play with HR) and the system just neglects this.lolcubes wrote:
Is getting a SS with HD DT on a hard easier than just getting SS on the insane?
I actually disagree with you on the "ridiculously easy SS" part with you. Atleast while using double time.
It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
no, you don't. You can get top 1000, top 750, maybe even top 500, without being extremely pro by intelligently selecting high play count maps. Most of these high play count maps aren't even that hard to rank on (I'm talking about the Hard diffs. The Insane diffs are really quite hard to usually, but don't give much pp)
I could probably start testing ranking on these hards and seeing how far I can get, but I don't see any fun in that because usually those diffs are easy and not fun for me.
I would say pp has its big flaws, but still is more accurate than score ranking. pp isn't that bad imo.
I could probably start testing ranking on these hards and seeing how far I can get, but I don't see any fun in that because usually those diffs are easy and not fun for me.
I would say pp has its big flaws, but still is more accurate than score ranking. pp isn't that bad imo.
Pretty crazy. 15 pp for #1 on a 112 play map.
that I just lost
that I just lost
I have more motivation to play taiko because I can actually aim for higher ranks without SS/Hardrock/Hidden/DoubleTime mods in effect. Rank #88 in canada and #7101 worldwide is more motivating than a rank in the 20k+ range (especially when you had to SS a bunch of maps to get there).
plus taiko pp loves me
plus taiko pp loves me
This describes professionals in every activity. There's always a bubble of people who are the best, or better, and then a lot of people that can't cut in on them, because they're not as good. What would you prefer? The alternative is that the system should allow everyone to be a pro at any given time without having to take power away from the already existing pros. It would be chaotic, and unfortunately, it doesn't make sense for competition. It's no side effect, it's the core effect of a skill game in development.TheVileOne wrote:
It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
Futher, I can't stress enough how little sense it is to say that something is farming if only the best players can do it. It's as if the only things that don't qualify as farming are the things that only one man ever did right.
TheVileOne wrote:
It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
Basically, you're saying the following:
You can't be pro without being pro.
Zarerion wrote:
TheVileOne wrote:
It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
Basically, you're saying the following:
You can't be pro without being pro.
Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.
/hopeimadesense
If you consider pp system bad because people who are better than others get more pp than those because they rank higher, you didn't really understand the whole idea of it.iFlipTables wrote:
Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.
/hopeimadesense
-_- You made no more sense than the other guy! XD The whole idea of a ranking system is that better players knock worse players out of the top positions. Of course your score will be beaten by other scores! It doesn't mean there's something wrong, it just means you've got more goals to attain.iFlipTables wrote:
Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.
/hopeimadesense
played 6 straight hours today doing DT + HD hards DT HR normals DT hards HD SS hards and SS insanes (and a couple top 10 normals)
the insane SS had 360k+ plays = 0 pp (rank 119)
one of the DT hards I got rank 8 = 3 pp, the rest 0 pp
the DT + HD hard = 1 pp (only rank 50 something 98.70% acc)
normal DT HR = 0 pp (rank 6 and rank 10)
it's very frustrating lol orz
I'm getting better though, it's like there's a soft cap on skill or something.
It seems to get high pp you need it all, FC high acc high rank and bonus pp for mods
I dunno the system is not perfect but it still means more than the scoring system did.
Also look at Sette, this guy plays DT + HD hards for a living, most people say he doesn't deserve his rank I say bullshit lol, go try and DT HD SS some of the shit he has done. He is amazingly good. Lots of DT + HD SS hards are WAY harder than SS insanes (and lets be honest, when I say insane i'm not talking about shit only 5 people in the game can even FC.)
the insane SS had 360k+ plays = 0 pp (rank 119)
one of the DT hards I got rank 8 = 3 pp, the rest 0 pp
the DT + HD hard = 1 pp (only rank 50 something 98.70% acc)
normal DT HR = 0 pp (rank 6 and rank 10)
it's very frustrating lol orz
I'm getting better though, it's like there's a soft cap on skill or something.
It seems to get high pp you need it all, FC high acc high rank and bonus pp for mods
I dunno the system is not perfect but it still means more than the scoring system did.
Also look at Sette, this guy plays DT + HD hards for a living, most people say he doesn't deserve his rank I say bullshit lol, go try and DT HD SS some of the shit he has done. He is amazingly good. Lots of DT + HD SS hards are WAY harder than SS insanes (and lets be honest, when I say insane i'm not talking about shit only 5 people in the game can even FC.)
G0r wrote:
-_- You made no more sense than the other guy! XD The whole idea of a ranking system is that better players knock worse players out of the top positions. Of course your score will be beaten by other scores! It doesn't mean there's something wrong, it just means you've got more goals to attain.iFlipTables wrote:
Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.
/hopeimadesense
the point is that you can farm it.. using mods.. that's what i'm trying to say.. good players just throw double time on S it and beat everyone, that's the "bubble" he's referring to. I'm trying to explain what he's saying, i'm not agreeing with him.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/20566
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/38289
Played those 2 maps and my pp went skyrocketed. @_@;; One of them is apparently above my "He's a Pirate" pp.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/38289
Played those 2 maps and my pp went skyrocketed. @_@;; One of them is apparently above my "He's a Pirate" pp.
Farming is obviously possible, because farming = playing an extremely long amount.
and by playing an extremely long amount, you improve.
You are improving, thus making your pp go higher.
which means by farming, your pp goes higher.
but isn't that the point of pp? to go higher as you improve?
and by playing an extremely long amount, you improve.
You are improving, thus making your pp go higher.
which means by farming, your pp goes higher.
but isn't that the point of pp? to go higher as you improve?
He doesn't end of story. There's no way he matches up with the other pros. He's decent, and pretty much everyone out there agrees, but most people say he doesn't deserve his rank because he really doesn't compare to other pros who should have his rank (e.g. Rucker, or Niko- or other people), but that's just the flaw of ppUnkind wrote:
Also look at Sette, this guy plays DT + HD hards for a living, most people say he doesn't deserve his rank I say bullshit lol, go try and DT HD SS some of the shit he has done. He is amazingly good. Lots of DT + HD SS hards are WAY harder than SS insanes (and lets be honest, when I say insane i'm not talking about shit only 5 people in the game can even FC.)
TheVileOne is trying to say that with this system, the top 500 are not going to change much because as more maps come out, the top 500's pp will go up higher and higher, and the only way to take a spot is to constantly maintain dozens and dozens of DT/HD/FL/HR maps against people who are much better than you. It's like climbing Mount Everest and the people who already made it to the top get to shoot paintballs at you, making it much more difficult for you to finish and join them.
The only way to fix this is to either put a cage over the top 500 overall players and give them their own map rankings, or make it easier to take PP from someone who has a lot of it.
The only way to fix this is to either put a cage over the top 500 overall players and give them their own map rankings, or make it easier to take PP from someone who has a lot of it.
isn't this kind of the purpose of pp? that the best get rewarded?Mithost wrote:
TheVileOne is trying to say that with this system, the top 500 are not going to change much because as more maps come out, the top 500's pp will go up higher and higher, and the only way to take a spot is to constantly maintain dozens and dozens of DT/HD/FL/HR maps against people who are much better than you. It's like climbing Mount Everest and the people who already made it to the top get to shoot paintballs at you, making it much more difficult for you to finish and join them.
The only way to fix this is to either put a cage over the top 500 overall players and give them their own map rankings, or make it easier to take PP from someone who has a lot of it.
This simply cannot be true... I personally used to be close to rank 5000 not long ago. I was stuck there, and I needed to improve some skills before I could get any further. I practiced hard, and finally I felt myself playing better again. Within a couple weeks I was just above 2000. That's not a bubble... I don't have a lot of maps in my Osu! list. I only have something like 600 S scores. I've simply gotten good rankings in a lot of the maps that I have. I never felt like I needed to high rank more maps to get PP. I've always gotten a ton of PP for every individual high rank on just the few maps I have. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if ranking more maps somehow degrades your PP gain. My point is that if I can grow 3000 ranks in about a couple weeks, then anyone can do it. If you're stuck somewhere, then it's not the pros faults for shooting you down. You're just not getting any better.
Also, I have to comment on Sette. I had never really seen this guy play, so I wanted to see how average he really was, because everyone said his rank wasn't indicative of his skill. I went and spectated him for an hour, and I can tell you that I saw him do some amazing things... I don't know every map by name, but I saw him DT HD some really crazy hard insane maps. I personally couldn't touch how well he was playing these maps. I saw him DT HD SS this map that I could barely follow. So I don't know if that was his awesome insane map day, or something, but I don't think I saw him play one hard in that entire time.
Also, I have to comment on Sette. I had never really seen this guy play, so I wanted to see how average he really was, because everyone said his rank wasn't indicative of his skill. I went and spectated him for an hour, and I can tell you that I saw him do some amazing things... I don't know every map by name, but I saw him DT HD some really crazy hard insane maps. I personally couldn't touch how well he was playing these maps. I saw him DT HD SS this map that I could barely follow. So I don't know if that was his awesome insane map day, or something, but I don't think I saw him play one hard in that entire time.
i cant gain 3k ranks
The things that as a map get older it give less pp is a.....
ok, if a map get older it doesn't mean it get easier. Instead it may get harder get higher ranks (even if it's harder to lose them).
Plus, i don't see how a many years old map can give many points while harder(much) months old maps give no pp.
Said this, pp shouldn't depend on map age and depend less or play counts of a map and depend much more on how the play went.
SS Bonus is too high, 2 mods FC with decent Acc( 90%+) is still way harder than Perfect without mods on most maps. And 1-mod Almost Perfect (98%+) is too harder than a Perfect without mods, this time in all maps.
ok, if a map get older it doesn't mean it get easier. Instead it may get harder get higher ranks (even if it's harder to lose them).
Plus, i don't see how a many years old map can give many points while harder(much) months old maps give no pp.
Said this, pp shouldn't depend on map age and depend less or play counts of a map and depend much more on how the play went.
SS Bonus is too high, 2 mods FC with decent Acc( 90%+) is still way harder than Perfect without mods on most maps. And 1-mod Almost Perfect (98%+) is too harder than a Perfect without mods, this time in all maps.
if a map gets older has 0 direct influence on how much pp you gain and i still dont get why people keep thinking that
Someone said that it had influence.
I still don't get the other things.
I still don't get the other things.
Only because you're already rank 999. ;Psilmarilen wrote:
i cant gain 3k ranks
Toostrong.
Only the age of the score you make has influence. Age of the map has nothing to do with anythingHakuNoKaemi wrote:
Someone said that it had influence.
I still don't get the other things.
So I decided to play some new maps today;
Got like 6 pp for most of the Insanes i passes with FC or 1 less than fc(dosen't matter they were under 500 rank)
Then I did this on a Hard, and got like 25 pp xD
Just saying, if you guys want some pp, go SS that map
Got like 6 pp for most of the Insanes i passes with FC or 1 less than fc(dosen't matter they were under 500 rank)
Then I did this on a Hard, and got like 25 pp xD
SPOILER
Nah, I'm just messing with yah, I know there's a bonus for SS, and FC.
Just saying, if you guys want some pp, go SS that map
Pretty much this. If you check my profile, you will notice that I actually haven't been playing a lot of maps, I am only SSing them. Some are harder, some are easier, some give more pp, some give less pp. I am pretty sure I can go much further but I don't really have time to play at all anymore so...sCam wrote:
Just saying, if you guys want some pp, go SS that map
Also, if you are always in doubt of will the map give you pp or not, you can always check a random top100 guy and see his best pp gains in top ranks. Try playing those maps (usually SS or hidden SS, most of the time hidden SS will yield you top40 as well, if not more) and you will see your pp skyrocket.
I'm not pointing to the age of the maps, neither score.Valentiino wrote:
Only the age of the score you make has influence. Age of the map has nothing to do with anythingHakuNoKaemi wrote:
Someone said that it had influence.
I still don't get the other things.
I'm pointing to the fact the making new scores on some maps give no pp. where some even MUCH easier maps give many pp...
See how hard give more pp than Insanes many times?
there's surely something to fix.
most of old songs with low combo gives lots of pp cause the most of the people that passed those maps did it with sucky accuracy
because they are horribly timed and just suck in general, some old normal/hards are actually harder to get 99+ on that most insanes from these days
yepsilmarilen wrote:
because they are horribly timed and just suck in general, some old normal/hards are actually harder to get 99+ on that most insanes from these days
I'm losing 4pp a day since 3 days. EXACTLY 4pp a day. I don't understand why... It's not like I can stay every day playing osu! to get them back =_=
i have only been gaining pp over the past couple of days.
knowing which maps to play to get pp really helps.
knowing which maps to play to get pp really helps.
Fun how nobody seems to notice it yet, but rankings by score are completely hacked up starting today.
*walks off to FC all marathons he has*
So, no turning back now, pp WILL be the primary ranking criteria. Yet, it's going to be fun for now.peppy wrote:
[fix]Change approved maps to add to ranked score (no special treatment given to approved anymore).
*walks off to FC all marathons he has*
oh wow, that explains how im suddenly at 6.7bil score. so i wasnt delusional
Its K i've been losing 19 a day. Most from new maps. Some from who knows whereJordan wrote:
I'm losing 4pp a day since 3 days. EXACTLY 4pp a day. I don't understand why... It's not like I can stay every day playing osu! to get them back =_=
Owait only lost 17 today.
I had this as well until I stopped just going for the fc/SS. Once I reached a somewhat high rank on a map and kept it, I found myself not losing almost anything. Keep in mind that first day a map is ranked it's pp will be highly unstable. Sometimes for a regular SS you might gain like 30 pp (on my pp level) but then you will lose quite a bit after the next recalculation. This is normal though.BlazingFX wrote:
Its K i've been losing 19 a day. Most from new maps. Some from who knows whereJordan wrote:
I'm losing 4pp a day since 3 days. EXACTLY 4pp a day. I don't understand why... It's not like I can stay every day playing osu! to get them back =_=
Owait only lost 17 today.
pp system is working good but it still a big joke and many inbalance in measurement of skill of player
you go talk about approval and ranked somewhere else
i mean the judgement of this system? my best record was a hard beatmap i played with double time...
i got top 20 ranks in marathons ...
i FC insane diffs with flashlight over 600 combos too i think and i SSed a val0108 map without mods
and the flashlight playes did not even register in the best plays list, i wonder if they even count
its maybe good but it seems so fake and generated, its not a good result
i mean the judgement of this system? my best record was a hard beatmap i played with double time...
i got top 20 ranks in marathons ...
i FC insane diffs with flashlight over 600 combos too i think and i SSed a val0108 map without mods
and the flashlight playes did not even register in the best plays list, i wonder if they even count
its maybe good but it seems so fake and generated, its not a good result
wow better performance
more points
it only needs a little adjustement to filter out to good from the better
more points
it only needs a little adjustement to filter out to good from the better
So something peppy is doing because of a decision based on performance points is not something related to performance points. I don't understand that at all. I mean this decision is like trying to put out a fire by pouring gas on it. It's just a horrible idea!
you can not judge this because your not a good enough player but in high level play and even very known players they will receive a worst rating because of how things are.
How does changing the approved score into ranked score have anything to do with pp?
It doesn't. Both categories were giving pp. Please, stay on topic, if you want to discuss score of approvals going towards your ranked score, open a new thread about it.
It doesn't. Both categories were giving pp. Please, stay on topic, if you want to discuss score of approvals going towards your ranked score, open a new thread about it.
it doesnt matter at all if approved or ranked lolcubes
i just say this system need alot more fine tuning
YOU CAN NEVER have a hard player OUTCLASS insane player and never even harder outclass worse and even harder and eveeen harder and ... theres allways a step above and putting mods on a map and abusing seems common to gain ranks
i just say this system need alot more fine tuning
YOU CAN NEVER have a hard player OUTCLASS insane player and never even harder outclass worse and even harder and eveeen harder and ... theres allways a step above and putting mods on a map and abusing seems common to gain ranks
I know, but some people were getting the wrong idea. I had to clean this thread up a little bit. :vHanyuu wrote:
it doesnt matter at all if approved or ranked lolcubes
i just say this system need alot more fine tuning
pp works perfectly as it does exactly what peppy intended it to do. just because we think it is supposed to show our skill based on map difficulty does not mean that was peppy's intent
/thread
/thread
WTF does this have to do with anything. I'm a mapper/modder. We have a balanced system and it needs to be fair. This decision is reckless on peppy's part and the rules don't have any guidelines for changing approval maps for them to be balanced under this new system. There was no discussion about it. peppy just decided to do it, screw the consequences.
Approval maps were NEVER intended to count towards official ranking.
Approval maps were NEVER intended to count towards official ranking.
well im a player
and im just thinking about it.. beside i dont really care about pp im just playing my way im just saying it is not so perfect as it should be
and im just thinking about it.. beside i dont really care about pp im just playing my way im just saying it is not so perfect as it should be
TheVileOne wrote:
WTF does this have to do with anything. I'm a mapper/modder. We have a balanced system and it needs to be fair. This decision is reckless on peppy's part and the rules don't have any guidelines for changing approval maps for them to be balanced under this new system. There was no discussion about it. peppy just decided to do it, screw the consequences.
This change doesn't affect pp at all.lolcubes wrote:
How does changing the approved score into ranked score have anything to do with pp?
It doesn't. Both categories were giving pp. Please, stay on topic, if you want to discuss score of approvals going towards your ranked score, open a new thread about it.
Refer to this post about what this thread is about: p/1743663
This was planned like 2938384 years ago. Oh, and it was never intended to make a approval section in the first place afaik, but was made so there were no imba score difference when paraparamax got approved. Then Approved turned into the place to throw maps that didnt fit the ranking criteria.TheVileOne wrote:
WTF does this have to do with anything. I'm a mapper/modder. We have a balanced system and it needs to be fair. This decision is reckless on peppy's part and the rules don't have any guidelines for changing approval maps for them to be balanced under this new system. There was no discussion about it. peppy just decided to do it, screw the consequences.
Approval maps were NEVER intended to count towards official ranking.
WELL ANYHOW, this isn't related to pp, yeah.
On-topic: pp is about performance. If you're looking for skill, you wont find it in some numbers, just go spec people and determine yourself.
HD+DT'ing a bunch of [Hard]'s could be concidered a great performance anyway, so saying "lolnoob" is kind of harsh. Still, pp works well, other than some weird mapweightings. (repeating stuff already said in thread like a baws)
Okay stop being ignorant. My whole point for these things is that pp should not be applied for approval maps. Is this not related to pp?
Stop acting like I don't know what I'm talking about.
Stop acting like I don't know what I'm talking about.
Why shouldn't it be? Approved maps aren't super gimmicky or anything. Just maps with high score/combo/song length.
BUT your writing like that omg. what does approval have to do with any TV size that is even as hard or harder. ok its longer
you dont even play
AND THERE ARE SOME MARATHONS THAT ARE HARD DIFFS ACTUALLY BUT THEY APPROVED BECAUSE OF LENGHT
you dont even play
AND THERE ARE SOME MARATHONS THAT ARE HARD DIFFS ACTUALLY BUT THEY APPROVED BECAUSE OF LENGHT
I feel like I'm repeating myself.
Approval maps should not count towards pp because they do not follow the rules of ranked maps.
I can't say it any simpler than that.
Approval maps should not count towards pp because they do not follow the rules of ranked maps.
I can't say it any simpler than that.
they do follow the rules of ranked maps, the only thing thats different is the max score and difficulty spread
90% of approval maps follows the rules of ranked maps save length or difficulty. Neither of these points makes an approval map less qualified to be rated for pp.
omg
he dont even know what approval maps are
he dont even know what approval maps are
Except for the length/score rule, which rules they don't follow?TheVileOne wrote:
Approval maps should not count towards pp because they do not follow the rules of ranked maps.
If you are saying this just because rule A needs changing, then you aren't bringing anything constructive, only destructive. Rather go poke the rules in this case, which I am sure they will get poked because of this change.
They can have a single difficulty, and do not follow the full mapset rule.
Edit: These are three rules they don't follow. I have already proven my point here. In order to rated fairly towards ranked maps, they need to follow the same rules.
Edit: These are three rules they don't follow. I have already proven my point here. In order to rated fairly towards ranked maps, they need to follow the same rules.
How does this affect pp?
pp is based per difficulty, not highest difficulty/highest score in the mapset. This is the difference between ranked score and pp as well.
If you think you're right, that's ok too. Just don't demand anything without completely understanding everything, ok?
pp is based per difficulty, not highest difficulty/highest score in the mapset. This is the difference between ranked score and pp as well.
You didn't prove anything. You are also very wrong. I think.TheVileOne wrote:
I have already proven my point here. In order to rated fairly towards ranked maps, they need to follow the same rules.
If you think you're right, that's ok too. Just don't demand anything without completely understanding everything, ok?
TheVileOne wrote:
They can have a single difficulty, and do not follow the full mapset rule.
ok then... explain the REALLY REASON why approval maps should not count into performance
I love popcorn and a quarrel.
Don't mind me *munch* *munch*
Don't mind me *munch* *munch*
hi kriers
Hey i just S rank this approval map and it was so hard and difficult to play and im so HAPPY i even PASSED it. then this guy, it should not count ..
CXu wrote:
hi kriers
Well, let's just keep on topic now, if possible, please.
Balance!
Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
approval maps are hard so they shouldn't count towards skill level omg I can't pass pls i criTheVileOne wrote:
I feel like I'm repeating myself.
Approval maps should not count towards pp because they do not follow the rules of ranked maps.
I can't say it any simpler than that.
they don't give more pp your points are invalid go away.TheVileOne wrote:
Balance!
Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
Hanyuu this is getting nowhere
scrolls back a few pages~
Hanyuu wrote:
pp system is working good but it still a big joke and many inbalance in measurement of skill of player
DO YOU EVEN HAVE ANY IDEA???? YOUR ONLY ASSUMPTIONS YOUR NOT EVEN PLAYIN SEREA GOT 1 PP FOR FREEDOM DIVETheVileOne wrote:
Balance!
Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
Fun fact: this gives a ridiculous amount of pp.TheVileOne wrote:
Balance!
Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
And by your logic it's not fair that [Insane] should give more pp than [Easy] because newer players can't get the pp from the [Insane]
PP is not based on score. Most of the approval maps give considerably less PP too, so you are wrong on that account as well. I have a number of 1-3x100 on some approval maps and they gave me maybe half of pp I gained from SSing a hard with hidden and DT. Please, if you are unsure about how pp works, check the wiki. Don't assume that harder = more pp, because while it should be like this, there is just not a good way to "describe" hard into numbers so it affects pp like it probably should, atleast not yet.TheVileOne wrote:
Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
You are also checking star ratings which have NOTHING to do with pp, absolutely nothing.
friendok58
Hanyuu wrote:
DO YOU EVEN HAVE ANY IDEA???? YOUR ONLY ASSUMPTIONS YOUR NOT EVEN PLAYIN SEREA GOT 1 PP FOR FREEDOM DIVETheVileOne wrote:
Balance!
Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
i got 0pp from this : (
lolcubes wrote:
PP is not based on score. Most of the approval maps give considerably less PP too, so you are wrong on that account as well. I have a number of 1-3x100 on some approval maps and they gave me maybe half of pp I gained from SSing a hard with hidden and DT. Please, if you are unsure about how pp works, check the wiki. Don't assume that harder = more pp, because while it should be like this, there is just not a good way to "describe" hard into numbers so it affects pp like it probably should, atleast not yet.TheVileOne wrote:
Many approval difficulties are so difficult that they rate higher than 5.00 stars. These maps give ridiculous amounts of pp. Much more pp than any ranked map. Also it's not fair that approval maps lack easier modes that are supposed to give newer players pp. So these songs are only there to give pp to players of a pro level and give nothing to anyone else.
You are also checking star ratings which have NOTHING to do with pp, absolutely nothing.
pp system is working good but it still a big joke and many inbalance in measurement of skill of player
pp stands for performance points. Performance =/= skills.
There still seems to be a misunderstanding about this: pp is not there to measure how skilled you are in osu!
Unless my English comprehension skills sucks and Performance can in some way be read as "skill"
There still seems to be a misunderstanding about this: pp is not there to measure how skilled you are in osu!
Pretty much what CXu said here. Is still a bit off and we all know it too, just give it time I guess.
but it shows the players with more PP over the rest
and if i remember right this was the so long awaited system to show who is really good because before it was "rank whoring" and "map farming" for score.
now i hear it does not mean how good a player is
what the hell really
and if i remember right this was the so long awaited system to show who is really good because before it was "rank whoring" and "map farming" for score.
now i hear it does not mean how good a player is
what the hell really
Oh really they aren't imbalanced. So that's why half of cookiezi's top performances are approval difficulties. Hmm out of all of his scores, half of the top of the top are approvals. (The top 3 are approvals) Explain this to me.
Explain... What?
He did a great job ranking high/first place/whatever on a hard map --> he was rewarded pp for said score.
I don't see your problem.
He did a great job ranking high/first place/whatever on a hard map --> he was rewarded pp for said score.
I don't see your problem.
Sigh.
I might unlock this tomorrow. This is getting nowhere fast.
I might unlock this tomorrow. This is getting nowhere fast.
Lets give this another try.
go the hell away friendok
locking again until you're banned
locking again until you're banned