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Proposal: new scoring system for mods

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Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose
The game needs a new scoring system in general before even thinking about changing the score system for mods.

As in, your score not being determined entirely by max combo.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
one could do something silly and literally just multiply your score by your accuracy
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose

Ephemeral wrote:

one could do something silly and literally just multiply your score by your accuracy
score would still be pretty much entirely decided by max combo
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert
Star difficulty can be probably moved away from calculating score of the map too
Since the amount of score doesn't matter, only how high it is compared to other players in the same map
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Using accuracy as a multiplier to avoid last hits being worth A LOT more than the first ones would be ok.

Star rating system is useless since there are lots of kinds of "difficulty".
Tsukimi Luna
726 posts
Joined July 2010
Tsukimi Luna

darkmiz wrote:

Valentiino wrote:

And this change would require stat wipes on all beatmaps :I
I don't see a problem.
You must be dumb for not seeing a problem
really

And also if FL is "easy to farm" and "much easier"
why dont u Silver S rank with FL the songs below?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46969 [DN Angel]
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46084 [Maximum]
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/18260 [Guest Diff Collab]

Those songs are fairly easy for me and shud be fairly easy to you
Since that you say that playing with FL is almost the same with no mod
Go ahead and prove it lol
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Problem is not how hard Flashlighting is, but how impossible some DTs are while FL is still possible, meaning FL HD = forever #1 unless someone goes and do FL HD (+HR) at the very least.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28107

Great example. If you can DT HD that with 99,5%+ then you should be banned. Which is why "dynamic" bonuses would be the best choice. Since you got other maps like this, where FL for obvious reasons would be much harder than DT:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23238

It remains being true though that it'd be quite unfair if some not very good player got FL HD SS and #1 there even while he can't DT that map... but only real solution to this would be removing FL but that won't be done, ever, unless some new clever cheat that can't be detected appears.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Wishy22 wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28107

Great example. If you can DT HD that with 99,5%+ then you should be banned.
Not the best example. Gold dust actually has low OD and it's easy to get good accuracy on compared to other maps even with HR, and the jump speed on it with DT isn't that crazy compared to many maps we have today except for like a few tiny bits. The biggest problems would be the 265 streams but since they're not spaced and not long either and people actually exist who can stream 270 this is theoretically possible.

Like, if Remilia-Scarlet cared enough to do it, I can see him doing DT+HD on that map with 100%. The amount of effort involved in doing that comparatively to FL+HD is irrelevant because skill and effort are not the same thing anyway. If Tom94 cared enough to do it be can probably do it as well as probably all of the top 50 players. Just because Cookiezi didn't get around to caring enough to do it doesn't mean it's impossible, yo.

I think this is a much better example for a map that: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/45760
Memorizing this whole map for FL isn't that big of a deal because most of the patterns are right next to each other or go in a line. But good fucking luck DTing this /at all/, let alone with accuracy higher than 95%.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

Wishy22 wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28107

Great example. If you can DT HD that with 99,5%+ then you should be banned.
Not the best example. Gold dust actually has low OD and it's easy to get good accuracy on compared to other maps even with HR, and the jump speed on it with DT isn't that crazy compared to many maps we have today except for like a few tiny bits. The biggest problems would be the 265 streams but since they're not spaced and not long either and people actually exist who can stream 270 this is theoretically possible.

Like, if Remilia-Scarlet cared enough to do it, I can see him doing DT+HD on that map with 100%. The amount of effort involved in doing that comparatively to FL+HD is irrelevant because skill and effort are not the same thing anyway.
that's ridiculous, gold dust with DT is something even cookiezi would not be able to fc. on paper, it sounds so very easy, you only have to read AR 11, stream 265 BPM, do some fast jumps, bam, fc. the reality is: only very few players in osu are even able to do one of the listed things properly, not to speak of all 3.

This is "only" AR 10 (9? I can't really tell, but seems to be 10), some fast crossscreen umps and 240 BPM streams.
sounds easy, but cookiezi barely passed this map.

it's incredibly hard to even pass hard insanes above the 170 BPM mark with DT, as it is incredibly hard to pass hard insanes above the 230 BPM mark. there are only a few players that combine speed, accuracy, readingabilities, aiming and a calm head to pull fcs on maps like this off.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
obviously it's not easy, anything above 17x bpm with DT is crazy, but GD specifically is a low OD map, it's not the greatest example for stuff that's completely impossible with DT, the stuff you put just now is much better examples for "hard as hell with FL but possible(?) on the same level nomod is, DT - forget it".
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Aqo wrote:

Not the best example. Gold dust actually has low OD and it's easy to get good accuracy on compared to other maps even with HR, and the jump speed on it with DT isn't that crazy compared to many maps we have today except for like a few tiny bits. The biggest problems would be the 265 streams but since they're not spaced and not long either and people actually exist who can stream 270 this is theoretically possible.

Like, if Remilia-Scarlet cared enough to do it, I can see him doing DT+HD on that map with 100%. The amount of effort involved in doing that comparatively to FL+HD is irrelevant because skill and effort are not the same thing anyway. If Tom94 cared enough to do it be can probably do it as well as probably all of the top 50 players. Just because Cookiezi didn't get around to caring enough to do it doesn't mean it's impossible, yo.

I think this is a much better example for a map that: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/45760
Memorizing this whole map for FL isn't that big of a deal because most of the patterns are right next to each other or go in a line. But good fucking luck DTing this /at all/, let alone with accuracy higher than 95%.
What the fuck are you talking about dude Cookiezi could fucking sight-read AR 11 (and is still probably the best at that) and the best he could do there was clear with tons of misses, and his aim is still the best BY FAR, even years ago when Airman was first released his aim was better than any other player's now. OD means shit on that kind of maps nobody cares about it, you'll get randoms 100 everywhere because the map is kind of unreadable for everyone except for 2 or 3 players, and the cursor speed + impossible snapping those patterns will require on 270 BPM will make it impossible to FC. Really if you use DT you will get 100s because you're late to the hit after a jump not because the OD is high.

And no that other map is stupidly impossible to do because of streams and 1/6. And AR.

Please stop speaking shit and play the damn game, you'll see how what you're saying is completely retarded (at the very least). No offense intended, but that's reality, thinking Gold Dust + DT is even close to possible for any player is really dumb.

PS: LOL didn't read that thing about "the whole top 50 could do it", lol dude you got to be kidding, or you are really clueless about how hard things are.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Wishy22 wrote:

PS: LOL didn't read that thing about "the whole top 50 could do it", lol dude you got to be kidding, or you are really clueless about how hard things are.
Yeah no if you'd asked me last week I'd also think gold dust FC on DT is near impossible but after I specced some plays yesterday by top 10 on unapproved maps with 300+ bpm and ridiculous sv things look different
sorry but I think you're clueless on how good some people in this game are

Which reminds me, some other day I specced Renard live play this http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27104 on DT and nearly SS it in just like 10 tries, and this map is lightyears harder than gold dust both jump-wise and stream-wise. kyou-kun says it was actually cookiezi on Renard's account, but this was like 3 weeks ago
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Aqo wrote:

Yeah no if you'd asked me last week I'd also think gold dust on DT is near impossible but after I specced some plays yesterday by top 10 on unapproved maps with 300+ bpm and ridiculous sv things look different
sorry but I think you're clueless on how good some people in this game are
Some other day I specced Renard live play this http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27104 on DT and nearly SS it in just like 10 tries, and this map is lightyears harder than gold dust both jump-wise and stream-wise. kyou-kun says it was actually cookiezi on Renard's account, but this was like 3 weeks ago
BPM has nothing to do with it, it's damn impossible jumps what's hard.

No, the best player ever was is and will probably be for a while Cookiezi, and he couldn't do Gold Dust and all, it's not that I'm saying this, I ASKED HIM if he thought he could do it, he said the best he could manage to do is clear it.

Renard is a joke, people saying Cookiezi uses that account and shit, you better ignore every super play you see from that player since it's really fishy.

This can be easily clarified, tell me what's your top 10 and I'll go (or you do) ask them if they think they can ever clear Gold Dust on DT.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Contrary to popular belief fast/huge jumps are not all that hard in comparison to hard patterns which is why hatsune miku no shoushitsu is hard. It's all about the patterns. Gold dust is perfectly passable with HD DT because the patterns are predictable and easy and I'm gonna go ahead and say there are a fair few people (at least 100) who could clear it. Really this is why it's hard to place mods without checking out the map. A map with screen jumps can be so much easier than a map with strange patterns that the mods become skewed. They don't take into account anything on the map.

As said before, flashlight is a hard mod yes but it can be used by ANYONE while other mods such as doubletime and hardrock require higher playing standards to use. In reality flashlight shouldn't give 1.12 because people have to put more effort in than others who use doubletime because it still requires less skill. As I've stated before people don't get gold medals in the Olympics for trying the hardest they get gold medals for being the best (but apparently not in this game).
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Ok go ask 10 random top 100 players and tell them to give 10 or 20 tries to Gold Dust. thelewa already did he failed on the first 15 20 seconds.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
thelewa sucks on high BPM streams, if he doesn't lie about his skill. though I also think that the only people who could possibly ever clear gold dust with dt are cookiezi and maybe white wolf, niko and rucker
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
I love the arguments here:
It's possible to train to memorize, but it's not possible to train to move faster (FL vs DT).
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Note the difference:

If you can DT Gold Dust, you are probably one of the best players ever and it probably took years or training to do it.
If you can FL Gold Dust, you are probably one player that just put 1000 plays memorizing it.

It IS possible to DT FC Gold Dust, not for any human player though (yet). Plus if you can DT Gold Dust, then you can FL it if you play it enough times, which does not apply to the opposite case.
Last edited by Wishy , edited 1 time in total.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Welp, no point trying to explain to the ignorant.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Who are you to call me an ignorant? What I said, like it or not, is true.
G0r
389 posts
Joined September 2011
G0r
Actually, I think it's undeniable that it is a strong argument to say that being able to DT a song implies the physical capability to FL a song. Being able to FL a song, on the otherhand, does not imply physical capability to DT a song.

However, I think that there is a mental element to FL, which should not be disrespected. Being able to physically do FL is different than being able to mentally handle the task. This does not strike me as enough to place FL in the same difficulty category as DT, but it is worth remembering that the mod is still very hard to do, and requires a specialized skill set of its own.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Precisely. However, some people need to get over their god complex and realize that FL may take just as much skill as DT.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
It takes patience, and I consider skill more important that patience. You won't be the best by being the most patient player.

And I don't think having "super" FL memorizing skills will do much on DT/HR, since every player already memorizes the map a little when getting some DT/HR FC.

Nobody's saying it's easy, it's just WAY EASIER than DT on many cases, where DT requires an almost inhuman skill making it impossible for every player, while all you need for FL is lots of patience and enough skill to FC nomod.
Tsukimi Luna
726 posts
Joined July 2010
Tsukimi Luna
Wishy
Lol how stupid can u be???

Both fl and dt requires. Skill so stfu
And also if u want to change those multipliiers some how a complete wipe out of ranked scores iss require
Just shut up abt that already
Your opinion /= others

And also to judge wht u said ...
U should prollly full version of a song on hard diff with DT
And Try fl after that

If u ask me DT is easier than FL
So shut up, the general public doesnt agree with u so shut the hell up already


This thread shud really be locked lol
Just saying
Last edited by Tsukimi Luna , edited 2 times in total.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Retard all-mod easy ranker is mad.
Tsukimi Luna
726 posts
Joined July 2010
Tsukimi Luna

Wishy22 wrote:

Retard all-mod easy ranker is mad.
Well If u gonna say that.
I suggest u taake a look at my top 40s from one of the thread
I dont do those ranks frequently
And i dont rank stuff pretty much bcuz im a casual player
I normally just try to get top 300 in the hardest diffs

If u are saying that im noob
Thats true
Bcuz i never said that i was good
I juist told u to shut up and stop whining and complaining

Thanks for assuming without even clarifying
Cuz i was just doing that for a song i like lol

Oh yes and u are also a rankwhore so it doesnt really matter.. At least my rank reflects lower than what i can actually play at
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
You are, indeed, mad.

You are not even expressing an opinion so please leave.

Haha me a rank whore, if you knew me. :p
Tsukimi Luna
726 posts
Joined July 2010
Tsukimi Luna

Wishy22 wrote:

You are, indeed, mad.

You are not even expressing an opinion so please leave.

Haha me a rank whore, if you knew me. :p
Nah not really
What im thinking is that you are prolly just jelly @ppl like mesita who are good in memorizing
I mean if u say that FL requires less skill than DT bcuz u just need patience
Prove it lol

I mean in my view
U are just looking at something and claiming that something to be easier than what u do
And then bragging to people that he sucks bcuz what he does is easier and requires less effort when u cant Even beat that something.

Its like a long tall tale story
U dont have to brag over here abt how good u are in dt or hr or wtv
Stop it with your "god complex"

Also like they said dt and fl need a different set of skills
Get over it already lol
Stop bashing FL (what i really wanted to say)

XD
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Yes, you are.

No, I'm not, I don't give a shit about getting top scores cause I play for fun and casually. I just find it insulting when some random player gets some top score over the best players just because he memorized the map, I consider skill more important than patience. As I've said, you won't be the best by being patient.

Most FL players are shit, Mesita and a few others are exceptions since they are good even without that mod and can get top scores, which doesn't mean those are better than the players they're beating.

I don't need to prove something that's obviously a fact and even FL players will tell you. It does require memorizing skills, of course, not everyone will FL maps as fast as Mesita, but truth is the most important thing you gotta have is PATIENCE, since even if you're the best motherfucking memorizer ever, you will still have to play each map hundreds of times to FC.

It doesn't really matter anyways, Flashlighters are admired by fags, and praised by not-fags since what they do is really remarkable, but anyone with just a little of brain recognizes who're the pros. Thing is, if you want to make a not-possible-to-farm system, you have to begin with giving a lower reward to pure-grinding/farming mods.
Last edited by Wishy , edited 1 time in total.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
But practice takes patience and practice is the only way to become the best
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

thelewa wrote:

But practice takes patience and practice is the only way to become the best
no, you can be a douche like tom94 and be awesome by default :/
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
On completely different amounts, and you know that. Everything in life requires patience. XD
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
or you can have all the patience in the world and never become good
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Or you can just get a tablet and play like Cookiezi.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
or you can use mind control.
M i l o t i c
257 posts
Joined March 2010
M i l o t i c

Tanzklaue wrote:

or you can use mind control.
using it right now
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

tonyzore wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

or you can use mind control.
using it right now
renard what are you doing on Toni's account?
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
;; on FL vs DT ~ FL is a map-specific skill while DT is a global skill. If you have what it takes to DT one map at x bpm, you'll most likely be able to DT all maps with that bpm and difficulty range. But if you learned to FL one map, that doesn't mean you'll be able to FL others maps of that level as well... you'd still need to grind every single one for FL. That's why DT is considered more of a true "skill" while FL is just something you do but not a global player skill.
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
You don't really have to grind every single FL, though obviously it will usually take longer than someone with "true" skill, as you say, to DT. It's similar to reading anti-spacings and jumps. As you progress in osu! you learn to play them much better, and in FL, you learn to read notes better by understanding certain patterns or just learning to read half covered notes better or learning the signs of when there is a jump coming, etc. (actually I honestly don't know, since I never FL lol, but meh). But still, it takes a long more time usually.

Like previously mentioned, there is a different sort of skill set in FL.

Also,you can pretty much train to memorize almost anything, it depends on how much of time you are willing to waste spend on a map and what insane thing you want to memorize, but no one is ever going to stream 330 (and I mean STREAM stream, not 3 notes) dt chipscape hurr
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
I think FL and DT having the same score multiplier is just fine. If someone wants to spend a lot of time getting a #1, he can go ahead and FL it. Most people will still think that the DT score is better than the FL score, so it doesn't really matter that the DT score isn't always #1.
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