osu!'s score system has been broken since it's creation.

Score should be calculated using accuracy as a multiplier (thus making every hit worth the same). Actually score is worth shit since all that matters is how you do during the last part of the map since that's what's really worth a lot.

Factor used on score calculation should be accuracy and combo imo. Making the last hits worth more than the rest is stupid.

Then again Half-Time is completely imbalanced. This can be seen in every extremely hard map, where pro's cant beat Half Timers by playing nomod (or they just have a hard time doing it) which is, in my opinion, completely retarded.

After this you got Easy mod which is broken since it actually makes the map harder for almost everyone (how many people can play fluently insane maps + easy?).

Then the HR / HD discussion, both mods giving the same bonus. HR being a damn hard mod, since on insane maps you get AR 10, an OD close to 10 and a smaller circle size, meaning you need to have very good reflexes, a damn good accuracy since OD turns from being damn easy (like 7) to almost 10 which is really hard, and your aim needs to be way better (plus distance from hit to hit is increased a little by this). While Hidden just makes a visual change where snapping gets a little harder, and all you need to do is remember a few random hits that are hard to see using this mod. Only way this balances out nowadays is that most HR players can, for DAMN obvious reasons, do HR HD (there may be a few exceptions), but it still dumb that HR alone gives a lower bonus than another mod which requires you to be way better to FC. And remember, even if you're very good, getting 98% on HR is harder than getting 98% on HD, because of OD.

And on the last corner you got the competition between FL and DT, both mods giving the same bonus, but requiring completely different skills. FL being possible for every map if you play it enough times (it's just logic, play any map you can FC no mod for 2 weeks several hours a day, you will eventually FL FC) and DT requiring in many cases insane (many times impossible) skills to get the FC. Still many maps on DT are stupidly easy and FL requires a big amount of time to master/FC any map. So what should be done here is to change DT completely. DT bonus should be based on the base AR the map has (AR 9 DTs are just too hard for almost EVERYONE, even if the map itself is easy) and the base BPM of the map. Why the BPM thing? Many insane low BPM maps are just too easy, even using DT (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/30237), and those are cases where FL should be rewarded higher than DT.

But wait! There are some cases where low BPM maps are impossible on DT, if there was some accurate star rating system to see how hard each map is, I'd say to base DT scores on both BPM and difficulty (a very hard map should be rewarded A LOT MORE@DT than @FL).

tl;dr: Everything should be reworked/checked.

Wishy22 wrote:

osu!'s score system has been broken since it's creation.

Score should be calculated using accuracy as a multiplier (thus making every hit worth the same). Actually score is worth shit since all that matters is how you do during the last part of the map since that's what's really worth a lot.

Factor used on score calculation should be accuracy and combo imo. Making the last hits worth more than the rest is stupid.

Then again Half-Time is completely imbalanced. This can be seen in every extremely hard map, where pro's cant beat Half Timers by playing nomod (or they just have a hard time doing it) which is, in my opinion, completely retarded.

After this you got Easy mod which is broken since it actually makes the map harder for almost everyone (how many people can play fluently insane maps + easy?).

Then the HR / HD discussion, both mods giving the same bonus. HR being a damn hard mod, since on insane maps you get AR 10, an OD close to 10 and a smaller circle size, meaning you need to have very good reflexes, a damn good accuracy since OD turns from being damn easy (like 7) to almost 10 which is really hard, and your aim needs to be way better (plus distance from hit to hit is increased a little by this). While Hidden just makes a visual change where snapping gets a little harder, and all you need to do is remember a few random hits that are hard to see using this mod. Only way this balances out nowadays is that most HR players can, for DAMN obvious reasons, do HR HD (there may be a few exceptions), but it still dumb that HR alone gives a lower bonus than another mod which requires you to be way better to FC. And remember, even if you're very good, getting 98% on HR is harder than getting 98% on HD, because of OD.

And on the last corner you got the competition between FL and DT, both mods giving the same bonus, but requiring completely different skills. FL being possible for every map if you play it enough times (it's just logic, play any map you can FC no mod for 2 weeks several hours a day, you will eventually FL FC) and DT requiring in many cases insane (many times impossible) skills to get the FC. Still many maps on DT are stupidly easy and FL requires a big amount of time to master/FC any map. So what should be done here is to change DT completely. DT bonus should be based on the base AR the map has (AR 9 DTs are just too hard for almost EVERYONE, even if the map itself is easy) and the base BPM of the map. Why the BPM thing? Many insane low BPM maps are just too easy, even using DT (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/30237), and those are cases where FL should be rewarded higher than DT.

But wait! There are some cases where low BPM maps are impossible on DT, if there was some accurate star rating system to see how hard each map is, I'd say to base DT scores on both BPM and difficulty (a very hard map should be rewarded A LOT MORE@DT than @FL).

tl;dr: Everything should be reworked/checked.

Everything here needs a lot of work, but currently If I know right just 3 osu!Developer is working which is not enough to do something like this. So just be happy with this system.

Kurokami wrote:

Wishy22 wrote:

more stuff.

Everything here needs a lot of work, but currently If I know right just 3 osu!Developer is working which is not enough to do something like this. So just be happy with this system.

This shouldn't actually be that impossible for them to implement as it stands, I think the main issue is the fact that old scores will be changed which is unjust in many ways but as stated this could be solved by splitting maps into 2 different ranking styles - old and new.

also @ wishy. I actually asked this in a follow up pm to peppy, could mods ever be based on the difficulty of maps. That was about a week ago and I still haven't got a reply but I can already see a good reason why: we simply don't have a way to attribute difficulty settings to maps thus far. The star system hardly reflects map difficulty and this is where the issue arises, we just need someone to make a difficulty detector.

Until there is an actual code to calculate map difficulty there is no point to try and calculate true variable added difficulty from mods.

Could write pseudo code for an algorithm for this but I'm sure it would be a waste of time, rather just pick up a book to learn the C# syntax and then write actual code for it.

Why couldn't osu be coded in C++ or Java >_>

You could just make a new user-group with experienced players whose work would be to judge how hard a map is from 1 to 100, but that won't ever happen since, if everything keeps working the same, users with privileges will still be just users that don't really play the game (most BAT/MATs don't play the game seriously, just a few are good and even if they are most of them are not really active).

I agree with Wishy22 in regards to his tl;dr post. Remember my "gay" play? That beatmap actually serves quite a challenge with the mod combinations I used (it should be obvious how hard it is to SS Insane maps with Easy+Hidden mods). When I SS'd that, I actually received some amount of pp, but the problem is that I placed #447 there, and I may lose pp when that record is beaten out from Top500 (as implied on osu!Wiki). Although, this is the reason why I started playing some "easier Insane" maps without "Difficulty Decrease" mods.

Some random thoughts about possible solution: Perhaps a separated Leaderboard based on mods, like... HalfTime and/or EasyMode Leaderboard? (derived from No-mod Leaderboard)

While I don't take pp seriously, I somehow started to have interest in keeping my Performance above 5,000pp.

this should be considered in Taiko/CtB too. I've seen top ranks in Taiko (in easy/normal diffs tho) that HT people get higher scores than people without them. Same goes for CtB, some maps don't convert properly to CtB (i.e. pixel jumps appearing in maps, totally weird patterns), no mod plays should give higher pp gain than those with difficulty reducing mods.

@sephwin: That also happens at osu! standard as well, on certain "Easy" beatmaps like this.

lol~HT.

Wishy22 wrote:

You could just make a new user-group with experienced players whose work would be to judge how hard a map is from 1 to 100, but that won't ever happen since, if everything keeps working the same, users with privileges will still be just users that don't really play the game (most BAT/MATs don't play the game seriously, just a few are good and even if they are most of them are not really active).

problem with that is, you can't give a map a general difficulty. some people might not be able to play one insane that others can play wothout problem, but those people suck at other maps that the other people can clear easily.
and there are also mods. two factors here: some maps play easier (or harder) with specific mods than others. for example, map A is generally harder than map B, but map A is a lot easier to clear with HD HR than map B, so which one is harder? and of course every player has different modpreferences, which means that for example Flute would HR a map that no one else could HR, but then fail to do a hidden run on the very same map which every decent player could achieve.

short version: any difficulty rating of a map given by a user would never be objective.

If you get 10 opinions you will get a somewhat accurate average score.

you can make this exact same post about normal compared to DT

silmarilen wrote:

you can make this exact same post about normal compared to DT

Well apart from the fact you can't doubltime atama no taisu and beat all the no mod players with half the skill. Double time doesn't even apply to higher level maps, that would be a separate discussion completely. mods in their current standings can be completely impossible for 1 map while being incredible easy (if not helpful) for others. Not gonna go too off the topic of halftime but as an example: there is no way anyone can DT airman while some people can happily clear it hd hr for the same multiplier, or let's say there is an insane difficulty which is incredibly slow, some people may find it easier to DT it than no mod.

Also has anyone tried to easy mod the big black? I find easy to be relatively broken for the maps which people need it - the opposite end of the spectrum of halftime which makes it too easy. Food for thought.

I think that the argument that DT and normal are analogous to normal and halftime is actually quite good!

However... I think the real issue here is that it makes sense that normal scores might be able to beat out DT scores on a map that can only barely be DT'd, because the DT mod is supposed to imply difficulty. It does not make sense that halftime scores can beat out normal scores, since the mod implies ease. It really should not be capable of competing with normal mode on a difficult map that cannot be DT'd, since it's more of a fun mode to make maps accessible to lesser skilled players.

jesse1412 wrote:

there is no way anyone can DT airman while some people can happily clear it hd hr for the same multiplier,

Actually Cookiezi tried it with DT+HD. o.o

But just for fun.

Unrank all mods if you cry so much about this.
The Maps which you gave as example are special and to be playable for the people over the Top 100.
And please play the game for fun, not for Rank. Thanks.

No.

I rank for fun.

darkmiz wrote:

I rank for fun.

I agree with this. I find it fun to get high ranks and if all I could get was the same SS 100 other people had I would most likely just quit.

TheNutritiousGuy wrote:

Unrank all mods if you cry so much about this.
The Maps which you gave as example are special and to be playable for the people over the Top 100.
And please play the game for fun, not for Rank. Thanks.

For some (many) people fun equals ranks.

Also, the mod isn't broken for the maps anyone can FC. Of course he mentioned the extremely hard maps with high max combos. 1000 combo HT is worth way more than 300 combos nomod which is just wrong. That's where the problem exists in the first place.
Regarding your first sentence: Please re-read G0r's post, he explains it pretty well.

why does your avatar look like a stick figure with massive tits who's inside a circle

TheNutritiousGuy wrote:

Unrank all mods if you cry so much about this.
The Maps which you gave as example are special and to be playable for the people over the Top 100.
And please play the game for fun, not for Rank. Thanks.

Its actually kind of annoying that you would post an argument like this but I sort of agree, in fact I fully agree! I think the people who win the Olympics should be the people who have the most fun. The kind of stuff they do is only for the top 100 dedicated people so we should completely blow them off and propose everything caters for the average.

Basically no - I feel I may have been a little too sincere with this post as well.

I agree fully with easy maps, there should be a difficulty for every player but according to your argument we should only have maps which appeal to the average players with no challenge for the more 'skilled' players. In its current standing you are saying that it's fine to have thousands of easy maps for undedicated players but having a few hard maps where only a few of the most determained players can even pass should be completely limited to a half times win only (essentially - typical insane difficulty). People who play at this level tend to care about ranking songs alot more than others and that's not to show themselves off - it's to prove that they can pass. Essentially it's fine to ruin their fun because you disagree with it.

The worst part for me is that you came in blasting away about how they are special maps even though the thread is completely about the maps it applies to, HARD ONES. Seriously, you could have at least read a little bit of the thread.

thelewa wrote:

why does your avatar look like a stick figure with massive tits who's inside a circle

I swear you could bat off to anything if you can see a big titted women in that avatar.

TheNutritiousGuy is currently fortifying his house in fear of an Osu mob coming after him. It's funny how everyone reacted to this guy so fast.

G0r wrote:

TheNutritiousGuy is currently fortifying his house in fear of an Osu mob coming after him. It's funny how everyone reacted to this guy so fast.

Because he posted a ridiculous solution to the problem that was at hand.

Wondering if people's opinions are still the same as before. Also another peppy response on HT now would be nice.

Leave it ranked. Add a toggle amirite peppy?

there should be a negative multiplier for halftime

first one to play the map with halftime--> rank#1 -1120412 points

winber1 wrote:

there should be a negative multiplier for halftime

I actually like HT and I'm ok with this

Making halftime unrankable would be lovely imo.

it wouldnt in mine.
does it honestly hurt you so much that there are halftime plays in a top40?

It hurts my eyes to only see 1 HT record which is why I support t/88988
HT records make me wanna throw up.

silmarilen wrote:

it wouldnt in mine.
does it honestly hurt you so much that there are halftime plays in a top40?

Halftime is great is you want to practice specific things like slowstreaming at certain BPMs that lack a good fun streammap in normaltime or if you want to set different goals like going for an FC on a map where in normal time it just aint gonna happen, but using halftime for top scores is a no-no, it looks bad on the rankings and takes away from the quality of competition on the original map.

silmarilen wrote:

it wouldnt in mine.
does it honestly hurt you so much that there are halftime plays in a top40?

Yes.

loseri wrote:

Making halftime unrankable would be lovely imo.

this

I love playing with halftime often on maps like Big Black, airman, Freedom Dive. But I would rather see someone who had a 300x combo on Big Black with NoFail on rather than an S with halftime.

Also only like 10 people actually passed 4 dimensions. But only 6 show up in the top 50. I think passing 4 dimensions without mods is much more skillful than even a FC with HT.

Doesn't a scoreboard full of HT mean that we all suck? All of us except Cookiezi and company.

We should blame ourselves for it, not the mod. I'm sorry I can't pass 4D nomod. My fingers will pay for it.

Half-joking aside, I think that the score multiplier for HT + HR should be 0.36, not 0.32. At least that should be fixed. I wouldn't mind HT being unranked or an in-game mod filter, but I really doubt peppy would ever do it. He has a heart for people who aren't extremely good at the game. The existence of HT serves as a counterbalance to the existence of super-hard maps. I'm very tired so sorry if that didn't make any sense.

HT is fine with me on extremely difficult approved only maps, but lots of HT top 40 ranks in easy taiko converted maps that have heaps of sliders is really annoying, it's like the only way to get a decent rank is to use halftime just to get the full score on the sliders :S

No it's basically offending to people who worked hard to reach a level to pass/get a good score without HT.
HT isn't the only option just because you can't do a map, you could also just try and get better at the game and then retry later.

Some people just have more fun playing Freedom Dive or Big Black or maps like that with halftime

Purple wrote:

Doesn't a scoreboard full of HT mean that we all suck? All of us except Cookiezi and company.

We should blame ourselves for it, not the mod. I'm sorry I can't pass 4D nomod. My fingers will pay for it.

Half-joking aside, I think that the score multiplier for HT + HR should be 0.36, not 0.32. At least that should be fixed. I wouldn't mind HT being unranked or an in-game mod filter, but I really doubt peppy would ever do it. He has a heart for people who aren't extremely good at the game. The existence of HT serves as a counterbalance to the existence of super-hard maps. I'm very tired so sorry if that didn't make any sense.

I'll use this argument again: We have 20 billion maps for all those people who apparently suck, why can't people who actually put effort in and attain an amazing skill level have just ONE map to play at a level they consider fun AND challenging. HT HR doesn't change anything, it's still halftime.

nikoniko777 wrote:

HT is fine with me on extremely difficult approved only maps, but lots of HT top 40 ranks in easy taiko converted maps that have heaps of sliders is really annoying, it's like the only way to get a decent rank is to use halftime just to get the full score on the sliders :S

You have it completely wrong, halftime is not good on any map and especially not ones which require a large amount of skill. It's fine as a "fun play" mod but it shouldn't be used competitively. "I can't do X but Y can so make it easier for me so that I can stay competitive!".