I actually like HT and I'm ok with thiswinber1 wrote:
there should be a negative multiplier for halftime
I actually like HT and I'm ok with thiswinber1 wrote:
there should be a negative multiplier for halftime
Halftime is great is you want to practice specific things like slowstreaming at certain BPMs that lack a good fun streammap in normaltime or if you want to set different goals like going for an FC on a map where in normal time it just aint gonna happen, but using halftime for top scores is a no-no, it looks bad on the rankings and takes away from the quality of competition on the original map.silmarilen wrote:
it wouldnt in mine.
does it honestly hurt you so much that there are halftime plays in a top40?
Yes.silmarilen wrote:
it wouldnt in mine.
does it honestly hurt you so much that there are halftime plays in a top40?
thisloseri wrote:
Making halftime unrankable would be lovely imo.
I'll use this argument again: We have 20 billion maps for all those people who apparently suck, why can't people who actually put effort in and attain an amazing skill level have just ONE map to play at a level they consider fun AND challenging. HT HR doesn't change anything, it's still halftime.Purple wrote:
Doesn't a scoreboard full of HT mean that we all suck? All of us except Cookiezi and company.
We should blame ourselves for it, not the mod. I'm sorry I can't pass 4D nomod. My fingers will pay for it.
Half-joking aside, I think that the score multiplier for HT + HR should be 0.36, not 0.32. At least that should be fixed. I wouldn't mind HT being unranked or an in-game mod filter, but I really doubt peppy would ever do it. He has a heart for people who aren't extremely good at the game. The existence of HT serves as a counterbalance to the existence of super-hard maps. I'm very tired so sorry if that didn't make any sense.
You have it completely wrong, halftime is not good on any map and especially not ones which require a large amount of skill. It's fine as a "fun play" mod but it shouldn't be used competitively. "I can't do X but Y can so make it easier for me so that I can stay competitive!".nikoniko777 wrote:
HT is fine with me on extremely difficult approved only maps, but lots of HT top 40 ranks in easy taiko converted maps that have heaps of sliders is really annoying, it's like the only way to get a decent rank is to use halftime just to get the full score on the sliders :S
Seph wrote:
this should be considered in Taiko/CtB too. I've seen top ranks in Taiko (in easy/normal diffs tho) that HT people get higher scores than people without them. Same goes for CtB, some maps don't convert properly to CtB (i.e. pixel jumps appearing in maps, totally weird patterns), no mod plays should give higher pp gain than those with difficulty reducing mods.
So basically HT is giving people unfair top ranks, brilliant \o\Kuro wrote:
Seph wrote:
this should be considered in Taiko/CtB too. I've seen top ranks in Taiko (in easy/normal diffs tho) that HT people get higher scores than people without them. Same goes for CtB, some maps don't convert properly to CtB (i.e. pixel jumps appearing in maps, totally weird patterns), no mod plays should give higher pp gain than those with difficulty reducing mods.
What he said... My no mod score gets beaten by someone who used half time mod..
pretty sure there is not a single HalfTime-on-crazy-map player that would complain about their scores being pushed under scores of people who actually managed to pull off a passing performance on those maps in normal time.Michi wrote:
except the people who do those scores but who cares
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.Michi wrote:
Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
jesus1412 wrote:
the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
Due to the nature of standard's scoring system this is impossible to implement.enik wrote:
How about to make HT scores weigh less than top40 non-HT?
Hard capping the score to 1m regardless of difficulty increasing mods applied is good? What.Aqo wrote:
Had standard used mania's scoring system, it would have been. Would be nice if it did; that scoring system is miles better.
This is the only part of it that I don't like and think it's completely stupid especially with mods taken into account.JappyBabes wrote:
Hard capping the score to 1m regardless of difficulty increasing mods applied is good? What.
HA.Aqo wrote:
comboing
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.jesus1412 wrote:
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.Michi wrote:
Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
So remove the halftime scores from pp calculations for those without and calculate them as a normal top40, as suggested in the OP. Difference is that you want to include yet another calculation for players with halftime. I would have to say this would overly complicate things and allow people to easily get top ranks on hards using "separate" rankings resulting in pp for invisible top ranks.bwross wrote:
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.jesus1412 wrote:
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
Some very valid points indeed, even after thinking about how making it rankable in it's own little group of scores I really can't see a way to make rewards fair. A pass on freedom dive 4d is obviously harder than say an 800 combo halftime, so where do we draw the line? Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.bwross wrote:
It's not really that complicated... computers are built to do this sort of thing, and this is a really an easy thing for them.
And it won't really allow you to get top ranks on hards that are worth anything by using HT... because those simply won't be worth anything. There's a difference between taking an extreme map with 7.5 OPS and HT it to 5.6 (which is still a very respectable insane and should count for something) and taking a 3.5 OPS hard and HT it to 2.6 (which is well back in the normal range). Add in the penalties to pp for using HT and the lack of a decent rank, and you've just gained diddly squat for spending 33% more time than if you just played the normal. Plus, the curve can always be made non-linear so that anything HTed in even the moderate insane range barely ranks as an easy. It's just a matter of running the numbers to find something appropriate. There's nothing quite like giving a munchkin hope and then watching them waste hours trying to twink something that's been so curved down that it will never give them anything... it's one of the small joys of game development.
Plus, it's unlikely that a plan that removes scores from consideration will get any ground... that's not far from just unranking the mod, which isn't going to happen. And so we should start by looking for solutions where everything can count, because, ideally, every valid play should be considered for what it is worth when it comes to evaluating pp. And because of that, HT plays should be evaluated at their actual difficulty and against other scores of the same difficulty, and they should not interfere with people that are essentially playing a different song.
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted nowjesus1412 wrote:
Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
Use the same pp formula to apply the accuracy? The pp doesn't have to be added on, just potential pp used in the calculation for acc.GoldenWolf wrote:
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted nowjesus1412 wrote:
Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
If it was my choice I'd say the same, but we need to please everyone. If they think it's fine for other people to have to compete with their scores then they should have to keep them until they can beat them too. I can't see a problem with this, it's only fair.Aqo wrote:
The problem is that PP takes only the top score into account and that it's possible to get a higher score with HalfTime than without it due to comboing, despite the quality of play actually being much lower.
If you really want to solve this, the only logical way to do it is to make HalfTime not produce a score; i.e. change it into an unranked mod the same fashion autopilot and relax are.
That's also what I think.jesus1412 wrote:
we need to please everyone
is taiko taken into accountAqo wrote:
1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime
If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
This discussion is solely about standard, since the whole issue is due to standard's combo/fc score system and the way HT scores break it. I'm aware the case is different in taiko, and don't think HT should change on it. Consider this topic purely for standard._Gezo_ wrote:
is taiko taken into account