Well IMO if someone can FC a TAG map, it can be approved.
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[Rule] Each difficulty must be playable by a single player
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You mean this rule?
It's already there.
Each difficulty must be able to be played by a single player. Thus, Multiplayer TAG-specific difficulties are not allowed since multiple people are required to play them. However, like CtB-specific difficulties, you may add an external link to a TAG difficulty in your map thread.
It's already there.
Topic Starter
Exactly. So TAG diffs are already unrankable, right?Sakura Hana wrote:
You mean this rule?Each difficulty must be able to be played by a single player. Thus, Multiplayer TAG-specific difficulties are not allowed since multiple people are required to play them. However, like CtB-specific difficulties, you may add an external link to a TAG difficulty in your map thread.
It's already there.
I don't think this is a problem in my opinion,as said Jenny TAG is only approved
Topic Starter
@MoodyRPG - Of course it is. Yes, it's fun to see players who actually manage to pass such TAG diffs but have you ever wondered if the diff they are playing is right? It doesn't actually fit any ranking system, even for approval. Since it's a diff that is meant to be played by two or more players.
Fixed OP
Tag maps should be approveable. The scoreboard doesn't matter for tag maps, yeah, but it's not about that. It's about helping a finished map find its audience.
You know, you can probably make tag difficulties just like a normal diff, just focus more on combo splitting and positioning? This way the map isn't extremely hard and it's still enjoyable for tag play.
But maybe I am getting the wrong idea here?
But maybe I am getting the wrong idea here?
Topic Starter
You have a point about the normal diff Tag map but seriously, that would be totally boring for players.lolcubes wrote:
You know, you can probably make tag difficulties just like a normal diff, just focus more on combo splitting and positioning? This way the map isn't extremely hard and it's still enjoyable for tag play.
But maybe I am getting the wrong idea here?
Anyway, most mappers make SUPER HARD TAG MAPS. In a way that users would have to use Mods that would make the map easier to play. Which makes it unrankable really.
Topic Starter
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/7385iMercurial wrote:
Put random notes on all map -> TAG Map.
this is basically one of the random note positions i've ever seen. D: EDIT: The TAG4 map, probably. lol
I don't think TAG maps are approvable either. They suffer from the same thing CtB diffs (supposedly) suffer from.
Topic Starter
Agree. Only Taiko players really get along with this kind of diffs.Odaril wrote:
I don't think TAG maps are approvable either. They suffer from the same thing CtB diffs (supposedly) suffer from.
EDIT: Hmm, having troubles with the title. I can't add player on the title. D:
why are we discussing this? Do you have a point to make?
Nope, CTB diffs are unrankable because osu! standard transfers to CTB nicely, TAG maps are unrankable because they are supposed to be played by multiple people, tag plays arent recorded in the scoreboard so they dont need a scoreboard.Odaril wrote:
I don't think TAG maps are approvable either. They suffer from the same thing CtB diffs (supposedly) suffer from.
I still fail to see a reason why is it impossible to map a nice tag map without making it playable for 1 person. This way everybody wins, the person can enjoy a relatively hard map and the map plays nicely on TAG. The definition of "boring" doesn't come from map being "too easy", it comes from map not being enjoyable.
edit:
edit:
Which is sort of my point haha.Sakura Hana wrote:
Make a map for 1 person that can be played with TAG, not the opposite.
Make a map for 1 person that can be played with TAG, not the opposite.
I will admit that the "TAG4" diffs I've played are pretty bad and that a nicely structured regular map makes for a far better tag experience. My support for allowing them stems not from liking them (I don't) but from my belief that anything should fly in the approval category, even things I don't like. Figured I'd put that out there...
Any TAG Diff should be Unrankable. Since both players who play the TAG Diff need not to have a ranking system. Tag Diffs should be made just for fun and not for ranking competition. Besides, TAG diffs are widely known that it's not FCable and sometimes NOT passable without using HT/EC/NF Mod. So I highly recommend that TAG diffs/maps should be unrankable.1. You could be able to, anyway: TAG maps are meant to be played in multiplayer, and since they can actually be good for Approving (not Rank)
Here are the negative descriptions of TAG maps when played ALONE:
1. You will never be able to FC tag since it mostly contain HIGH Jumps and Streams.
2. Inconsistent spacings which makes the notes hard-to-read.
3. MAJOR Decrease in your Acc if ever you have passed this song.
I don't actually see any reason why TAG maps should be approved at all since It is not really meant to be played by one player, but that's just me i guess.
2. ↑
3. then what the Approved are needed for? And what reason is this? When accuracy=skill?
Adding support for deleting that rule:
1. explain what approved mean, if not "map that aren't meant for ranking that are substantially fun and good"
2. TAG difficulties are fun, you got one thousand feedbacks saying this
3. explain the utility of that rule, and its reasons, you will find they're nosense
Topic Starter
We are not talking about what's fun, and what's not. There's not a single reason why TAG maps should be approved, since the ranking is all about scores made only by one person. TAG maps are meant to be played by two or more players which actually breaks the ranking system for approval at all.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
1. You could be able to, anyway: TAG maps are meant to be played in multiplayer, and since they can actually be good for Approving (not Rank)
2. ↑
3. then what the Approved are needed for? And what reason is this? When accuracy=skill?
Adding support for deleting that rule:
1. explain what approved mean, if not "map that aren't meant for ranking that are substantially fun and good"
2. TAG difficulties are fun, you got one thousand feedbacks saying this
3. explain the utility of that rule, and its reasons, you will find they're nosense
Cheer-no
I think a big part of why people like TAG maps being approvable is that they like seeing what the superpros like Cookiezi and val can do on them. I'm in that group, but sadly I don't think it's a legitimate reason... The other problem I see is that playing a TAG map will permanently damage your accuracy, since they're humanly impossible to FC, so I don't think any more should be approved until/unless approval maps don't affect accuracy any more.
This more than likely will never happen since peppy prefers to even get rid if the approval section and let all ranked scores count on all maps.Cheer-no wrote:
until/unless approval maps don't affect accuracy any more.
And then what (the last famous words) ?Philippines wrote:
We are not talking about what's fun, and what's not. There's not a single reason why TAG maps should be approved, since the ranking is all about scores made only by one person. TAG maps are meant to be played by two or more players which actually breaks the ranking system for approval at all.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
1. You could be able to, anyway: TAG maps are meant to be played in multiplayer, and since they can actually be good for Approving (not Rank)
2. ↑
3. then what the Approved are needed for? And what reason is this? When accuracy=skill?
Adding support for deleting that rule:
1. explain what approved mean, if not "map that aren't meant for ranking that are substantially fun and good"
2. TAG difficulties are fun, you got one thousand feedbacks saying this
3. explain the utility of that rule, and its reasons, you will find they're nosense
Approved score DOESN'T count toward Ranked Score and NEITHER Total Score.
And yes, there are no difference between Approval and Ranked as now. We wanted Approved to be the category of good fun maps that couldn't be ranked, originally, so what?
They don't even need a scoreboard during multiplay, and someone do complete them.
Anyway, you're using the wrong argument, as the problem is people being able to map them, not to play them.
If not for fun, then why do you play games? People aren't asking for TAG maps to be approved because of the scoreboards. They're asking for them to be approved because approving a map makes it visible and allows it to find its audience. If there were such a thing as approved maps without scoreboards, I'm sure everyone who wants TAG maps approved would be fine with that.Philippines wrote:
We are not talking about what's fun, and what's not. There's not a single reason why TAG maps should be approved, since the ranking is all about scores made only by one person. TAG maps are meant to be played by two or more players which actually breaks the ranking system for approval at all.
Topic Starter
It is indeed approbed because of the scoreboard. But come to think of it, the scoreboard displays scores by single players who have played the TAG map, not the scores made by TAG COOP MODE.Soaprman wrote:
If not for fun, then why do you play games? People aren't asking for TAG maps to be approved because of the scoreboards. They're asking for them to be approved because approving a map makes it visible and allows it to find its audience. If there were such a thing as approved maps without scoreboards, I'm sure everyone who wants TAG maps approved would be fine with that.Philippines wrote:
We are not talking about what's fun, and what's not. There's not a single reason why TAG maps should be approved, since the ranking is all about scores made only by one person. TAG maps are meant to be played by two or more players which actually breaks the ranking system for approval at all.
Yes and no.Cheer-no wrote:
I think a big part of why people like TAG maps being approvable is that they like seeing what the superpros like Cookiezi and val can do on them. I'm in that group, but sadly I don't think it's a legitimate reason... The other problem I see is that playing a TAG map will permanently damage your accuracy, since they're humanly impossible to FC, so I don't think any more should be approved until/unless approval maps don't affect accuracy any more.
if you get into it, then you must get the risk. If you ask me, that thing of TAG maps not beign able to be approved because it is meant to be played by 4 persons is just silly IMO... if YOU want to play it ALONE then go ahead, and if you want to play it with other 3, 2 or 1 player/s then go to multi and enjoy. don't be so structured.
I support TAG4 beign able to be approved if they're good enough and well done AND if people WANT it to be ranked. that deltaMax mappu for example was in the "waiting section" for more than one year... A LOT of people wanted it to be approved but nope... needed more nazi mods and stuff it seemed... this is my humble opinion though.
Topic Starter
DeltaMAX is not a TAG map imo. D:
Wtf? TAG maps are asked to be approved because of visibility problems, like most beautifull approved maps, that weren't played if it weren't thank to Approving.Philippines wrote:
It is indeed approbed because of the scoreboard. But come to think of it, the scoreboard displays scores by single players who have played the TAG map, not the scores made by TAG COOP MODE.Soaprman wrote:
If not for fun, then why do you play games? People aren't asking for TAG maps to be approved because of the scoreboards. They're asking for them to be approved because approving a map makes it visible and allows it to find its audience. If there were such a thing as approved maps without scoreboards, I'm sure everyone who wants TAG maps approved would be fine with that.
Anyway, you're ranting over nothing. As people aren't asking for scoreboards, but for visibility.
playable is rather subjective, a beginner can't play insane doesn't mean that the expert can't play it. Similarly 99.9% of players can't pass [TAG] doesn't mean that it's not playable by every single player. Currently ranked TAG already show that passing TAG diff is possible. In this case I don't see the reason tag is banned because "not playable by single player".
TAG maps are theoratically SS-able. As time goes experts of the experts may come out and produce better results and FC maps eventually. If so, why some extreme maps (for solo) with super fast BPM, super jumping , etc are ranked (but no one FC)? It's because it's theoratically FC-able and as part of the ultimate goal for players.
I don't think decreasing acc is a reason for it. As long as it's theoratically SS-able, the full theoratical acc is still 100%. You need to realize that acc measure is never a fair index of player's accuracy. Players with 2000SS on insane but 99.5% in overall is much stronger than player with 6000SS with 100% in which he only play easy diffs.
TAG maps are theoratically SS-able. As time goes experts of the experts may come out and produce better results and FC maps eventually. If so, why some extreme maps (for solo) with super fast BPM, super jumping , etc are ranked (but no one FC)? It's because it's theoratically FC-able and as part of the ultimate goal for players.
I don't think decreasing acc is a reason for it. As long as it's theoratically SS-able, the full theoratical acc is still 100%. You need to realize that acc measure is never a fair index of player's accuracy. Players with 2000SS on insane but 99.5% in overall is much stronger than player with 6000SS with 100% in which he only play easy diffs.
That is the theory, but in practice it's a bit different. Passable doesn't mean playable. I do agree with what you are saying, but the maps themselves have to be reasonable. Most tag maps include like 8.0x spacing out of nowhere, even on 1/4 high bpm, and that is not playable. Just because some players are able to hit it doesn't mean it's an okay thing to do.
Unless you mean Rainbow Tylenol, but that was discussed in the past already.
In theory any map is SSable, unless you have unrankable stuff in it.
You need to be more specific here. You should probably even link said maps, because in the time I spent here, I haven't seen such a map getting ranked (keep in mind that I haven't been here that long though). I don't play all maps that are getting ranked though.wmfchris wrote:
If so, why some extreme maps (for solo) with super fast BPM, super jumping , etc are ranked (but no one FC)?
Unless you mean Rainbow Tylenol, but that was discussed in the past already.
In theory any map is SSable, unless you have unrankable stuff in it.
Who defines playability? No one. This rule is retarded. Go look at sprosive / val0108 etc full comboing tag maps.
Topic Starter
Doesn't mean it's FCable, it's gonna be approved. Maps itself should follow the ranking guidelines whether or not they go for ranking or for approval.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/29844Natteke wrote:
Who defines playability? No one. This rule is retarded. Go look at sprosive / val0108 etc full comboing tag maps.
Tag maps play differently. Easier tag maps are fine, but this rule will make them not be called a tag map.
I still don't know why we are even having a discussion...
Ok, the approval is just = ranking, but gives you the rights to make only an Insane.Philippines wrote:
Doesn't mean it's FCable, it's gonna be approved. Maps itself should follow the ranking guidelines whether or not they go for ranking or for approval.
How selfish then. Why not delete it then?
Approval in the start was meant to give visibilty to GOOD maps that couldn't be ranked under the current rules in the start. So wha? TAG maps, if their quality is good, are actually fun to play, even in different modes.
This implies the maps they FC follow the rule.Natteke wrote:
Who defines playability? No one. This rule is retarded. Go look at sprosive / val0108 etc full comboing tag maps.
when they were made nobody could FC them.mm201 wrote:
This implies the maps they FC follow the rule.Natteke wrote:
Who defines playability? No one. This rule is retarded. Go look at sprosive / val0108 etc full comboing tag maps.
Ask yourself, would it take a robot to FC this? (inb4 yes)
Yeah back when kanbu just got ranked people said the same. Eventrually averge skill among players increased and now we have full combos.
Topic Starter
But atleast Kanbu has consistent spacings, enough to be understood by players. unlike TAG maps, they're just.. *+&-_+8,_6=Natteke wrote:
Yeah back when kanbu just got ranked people said the same. Eventrually averge skill among players increased and now we have full combos.
Philippines wrote:
Kanbu has consistent spacing
........................
sigh..
I can see how Tag Diffs are quite similar to CtB diff's situation, but I won't discuss this here and potentially derail the topic.
I agree playability is too subjective to have it as a rule, so that's a weak option for us to take if we ever want to ban Tag diffs from approvals.
In honesty, I don't see the harm for having Tag diffs for approvals. Potential of having a single player diff with ridiculous spacings? I think we already have those or will have those in the future for approvals anyway. Spamming NCs? Hell, the mapper would need to justify that before it gets approved.
The gimmickness of Tag diff is IMO suitable for theme of Approval maps. After all, people wants approval maps to be more gimmicky, not just a ranked map with longer length/higher total score.
EDIT: I guess having an external link on the thread is theoretically an option, but who on Earth would go into the thread, DL the diff, and shove it in the folder while you are in a Multiplayer Room? That's way too inconvenient and retarded. No one will ever go through that to play a diff in a multiplayer, unless they are playing with their friends only (and even they will complain in most cases).
SPOILER
What I imagine with Tag diffs are like patterns that wouldn't work for a single player, but makes sense when it's played by certain number of players just like Nico Nico Douga - BARUSA of MIKOSU (it was amazing when this was approved). Unfortunately, a lot of Tag diffs just became a fest of mega spacings :<
I agree playability is too subjective to have it as a rule, so that's a weak option for us to take if we ever want to ban Tag diffs from approvals.
In honesty, I don't see the harm for having Tag diffs for approvals. Potential of having a single player diff with ridiculous spacings? I think we already have those or will have those in the future for approvals anyway. Spamming NCs? Hell, the mapper would need to justify that before it gets approved.
The gimmickness of Tag diff is IMO suitable for theme of Approval maps. After all, people wants approval maps to be more gimmicky, not just a ranked map with longer length/higher total score.
EDIT: I guess having an external link on the thread is theoretically an option, but who on Earth would go into the thread, DL the diff, and shove it in the folder while you are in a Multiplayer Room? That's way too inconvenient and retarded. No one will ever go through that to play a diff in a multiplayer, unless they are playing with their friends only (and even they will complain in most cases).
This is just gonna make osu! a lot boring. Disagree. Anyway, these maps are approved not ranked.
And, It depends on the player if he/she wants to play the map solo or multi.
End of discussion.
And, It depends on the player if he/she wants to play the map solo or multi.
End of discussion.
not sure if srsPhilippines wrote:
But atleast Kanbu has consistent spacings, enough to be understood by players. unlike TAG maps, they're just.. *+&-_+8,_6=Natteke wrote:
Yeah back when kanbu just got ranked people said the same. Eventrually averge skill among players increased and now we have full combos.
then what?Philippines wrote:
But atleast Kanbu has consistent spacings, enough to be understood by players. unlike TAG maps, they're just.. *+&-_+8,_6=Natteke wrote:
Yeah back when kanbu just got ranked people said the same. Eventrually averge skill among players increased and now we have full combos.
What's the meaning of your words? You're just derping, mostly
Tag diffs are meant to be played on multiplayer, which is unranked. There's no need for it to be approved.bmin11 wrote:
I can see how Tag Diffs are quite similar to CtB diff's situation
people do it all the time when they can't download from bancho, and IIRC you can just stick the .osu file in an .osz and osu will handle the rest.bmin11 wrote:
I guess having an external link on the thread is theoretically an option, but who on Earth would go into the thread, DL the diff, and shove it in the folder while you are in a Multiplayer Room? That's way too inconvenient and retarded. No one will ever go through that to play a diff in a multiplayer, unless they are playing with their friends only (and even they will complain in most cases).
Of the TAG4's that are approved that I can remember right now, there is only one that currently doesn't have a pass yet without a difficulty reducing mod.
And atleast one, maybe two approved TAG4 diffs are FCable with the current overall skillevel on osu!
Plus having a scoreboard on a TAG4 diff doesn't hurt anyone other than the people playing it (and hurts no one if they don't care about accuracy). It's not neccessary to have it, but geee it's not neccessary to remove it either, and it's neat.
And atleast one, maybe two approved TAG4 diffs are FCable with the current overall skillevel on osu!
Plus having a scoreboard on a TAG4 diff doesn't hurt anyone other than the people playing it (and hurts no one if they don't care about accuracy). It's not neccessary to have it, but geee it's not neccessary to remove it either, and it's neat.
You make a good point, probably the best point in the thread. However, ranked and approved maps exist to ensure a certain quality in beatmaps. That quality is not found in TAG, as the difficulty is greatly increased due to the (usual) NC jumps and overall slightly easier combos.CXu wrote:
It's not neccessary to have it, but geee it's not neccessary to remove it either, and it's neat.
As long as approval stands as "maps that can't be ranked for score reasons", TAG should be unrankable. Once approval means "maps that can't be ranked for gimmick reasons but are at a high quality similar to ranking", then maps like fear factory, osuka, and tag should be approved so that they get downloaded in the set (the only advantage to approving tag maps) rather than via a 2nd link. This will take nothing less than an executive decision, so in my opinion discussion is meaningless here.
Like ziin the said (and i said in past), the only problem about TAG difficulties is the quality, NOT the difficulty.
It's still difficult to make a good TAG map, but still, make them able to become Approved, as they will simply grave with no plays... Let's reward those who make a good work, don't you think?
It's still difficult to make a good TAG map, but still, make them able to become Approved, as they will simply grave with no plays... Let's reward those who make a good work, don't you think?
I agree completely.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Like ziin the said (and i said in past), the only problem about TAG difficulties is the quality, NOT the difficulty.
It's still difficult to make a good TAG map, but still, make them able to become Approved, as they will simply grave with no plays... Let's reward those who make a good work, don't you think?
And I don't see why we continue this discussion.NoHItter wrote:
Well IMO if someone can FC a TAG map, it can be approved.
If this rule is already in.
Same as "usual" Maps for approval.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Like ziin the said (and i said in past), the only problem about TAG difficulties is the quality, NOT the difficulty.
It's still difficult to make a good TAG map, but still, make them able to become Approved, as they will simply grave with no plays... Let's reward those who make a good work, don't you think?
You can make something like Nazi or Symertric Mods for this kind of Diffs.
At least, TAG Maps aren't made for Solo. And I personally would have Problems to mod, if I had.
But in otherwise, I don't see why they should stay unranked.
I'm all for approving TAG maps (for the record I don't play TAG at all) just because it opens a way to a new kind of mapping, which can be very interesting. However, as HakuNoKaemi said, there is no quality control whatsoever on these difficulties, and we end up with what we have approved so far: ridiculous jumps and senseless new combo spams.