Xeroa ("preconnaiXance" Long ver.)

added space thank you

I'm glad that you are bringing it up so that we can have a discussion about this topic, it seems that a lot of people share your opinion on mapping principles that you've mentioned ! While I am sure that I cant persuade people who are set on their opinion, I do think that it is important to have healthy discussions about different opinions on matters that we are passionate about !

I think beauty is something subjective to all of us, everyone can have their own view on what is beatiful to them or not and while I do get the argument that uniform patterning (which was the norm) has its own beauty, for me it seems also very aesthetically pleasing to challenge that and to implement a different type of LN streams that also fulfills the purpose of what a normal conventional patterning with 1/4 does while also encapsuling the sense of chaos and intensity that a song like this with its high BPM provides.

I have mentioned this in my previous comment that Maxus has surely passed on to the BN server, regarding its purpose and and to call the patterns "unreasonable" is very far fetched in my opinion and do not have any foundation that can back up that claim, other than "The patterning is supposed to be used only in Tech sections" which is not set in stone or in any guidelines or rules to my knowledge.
In my humble opinion we shouldn't gatekeep the mapping (ranked) scene by making mappers follow a streamlined guideline that they have to follow or else -> bad quality map. (I know that you didnt gatekeep anyone and I am not accusing you of being a close minded person)
As long as there is a good enough reason for a pattern that the mapper has intentionally placed, and as long as it doesnt negatively influence the ranked environment, I think there shouldn't be any issues with charting unconventional patterns !
I believe there is no such regulation that prohibits the usage of those patterns for the purpose that I have mentioned and I very much welcome the idea of diverse mapping styles.

I think we should adress the problem that you have called "secondary"; many people have talked to me about the ratio of difficulty to star rating, if the 13 star rating is acceptable for a chart of this difficulty and if the star rating isnt bloated by abusing the system that (we all know by now) is very faulty and easily manipulatable.
Yes, staggered LN releases increase the star rating while not necessarily being a big enough jump in difficulty to warrent such a drastic increase of the star rating.
I have gotten some pretty harsh feedback on the maps System Error and Beyond the Aexis and that I took that feedback into account when deciding to push forward on ranking Xeroa. It is not completely wrong to accuse the chart of being bloated and because if we were to remove all LNs the chart would probably be around 10 or 11 stars at most. But here is the problem, while I do agree that the system is faulty (LN favored star rating system) we have to put maps into perspective that are already ranked and around this degree of difficulty.

The next comparable map to Xeroa that is currently ranked, if ONLY SR is taken into account and not the actual difficulty of the chart itself, is the ranked version of 7K MWC GF Tiebreaker: Duplicity Shade, sitting at around 12,04 stars. The chart has recieved some criticism because of the huge and gap in difficulty throughout the chart and therefore the imbalance that the map suffers from, most of the chart sits around 8th to 10th dan while significantly jumping to Zenith in the end. Lets take the highest peak of the chart which sits at around Zenith level. This map was ranked and sits at 12,04 stars, while Xeroa sits at 13,26 stars and has a fairly balanced difficulty progression with its peak at the highlight part around the 4th kiai. Through many playtests it was said that the chart sits around Stellium/Stellium+ level and while being very difficult and challenging it is not a chart that is impossible to play for the highest skilled players. Talking with Maxus about ranking a chart as difficult as this one is, we had to make sure that it is feasable to at least S rank this chart unlike a map that was ranked in Osu!Standard ( https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1712395#osu/3499015 ) that currently has only a single no mod pass on the leaderboard and this in my opinion would be considered a case fitting for the word "unreasonable".
This map was cleared (to my knowledge) 3 or 2 times by dressurf with the most recent play being a 96% acc play that validates my point of it being a chart that is within reason and a goal for people to work towards clearing.
The gap between Zenith level and Stellium + level is definitely a huge one and I think the gap of star rating between the Zenith level LN Hybrid chart (12 star) and Xeroa (13 star) is therefore acceptable.

I was afraid of a comparison between this chart and the recent incident revolving around the Seiga Itten chart where it was accused of being intentionally bloated to increase star rating that didnt fit the actual difficulty of the chart itself, so I asked around for feedback if this was a case of SR bloating that is unacceptable but the unanimous feedback was that the SR is not blown out of proportion and that the chart is difficult enough to warrent its current rating.

Now, as mentioned above I said "As long as there is a good enough reason for a pattern that the mapper has intentionally placed, and as long as it doesnt negatively influence the ranked environment, I think there shouldn't be any issues with charting unconventional patterns !" - and some people might argue that if this chart is getting ranked, it would open the gates to give mappers the go to rank similar maps and that would put the whole ranked environment in disarray. I have trust in the abilities of BNs to distinguish charts that deserve a spot in the ranked section and those who dont. If for any reason someone thinks that this chart is not fit for the ranked section, I am here to discuss it with them !

I believe the purpose of a ranked map is to evaluate a players skill and to reward them accordingly, that is why we have a ranking system, that is why we have leaderboards, that is why we have this system in place to keep it competitive, to make players set goals that they want to achieve long term!
To my knowledge there arent many ranked maps that challenge the highest skilled players and this would be one of the few to challenge their skill.

Playability was ensured through playtests and a lot of mods have been applied already to polish the chart !

This comment was not only a direct reply to your comment AMWRone, I just wanted to put this out here so everyone can share their opinions with me on that matter !

Seems we have different view of what should ranked map be like. This explanation does not convince me to understand why all LNs in the Density part have been extended by 1/16 or more . SR here is not my concern . Close this if you want :3

What’s more , 13* with Stellium doesn’t mean that pattern is OK . Other words , if you fix that LN tails to 1/4 line , it will still be Stellium.

Even though if it’s just only 3 stars I still disagree with that tail design . In Duplicity the 1/12 or 1/16 tails set only when burst occurred but not stream part

As for purpose of ranked maps , Regardless of whether LN tails is fixed or not, the playing experience will not be significantly different.
They are almost same .

I agree with you on that point, if I change the tails to 1/4, the difficulty of the map will still be Stellium. But I have yet to see any valid argument that convinces me that my patterning is "wrong". It isnt stated in any rules or guideline that varying usage on LN lengths are only permitted to be used when expressing bursts. The argument that it should only be used for the purpose that you have mentioned is entirely subjective as you already said and on that point I think we can agree to disagree. What gives a burst the reason to be expressed with unconventional snaps and what makes my patterns wrong for being used to represent the points that I have listed in my statement above? What dictates the usage of uniform LNs for LN stream sections and what is the actual issue with having staggered LNs if you say that star rating is a secondary factor here? You have said it yourself that the playing experience will not be significantly different so what makes it wrong to add those types of patterns to express the chaotic nature that the song provides? I simply fail to comprehend the argument that those patterns are wrong if playability isnt impacted and if SR is a non factor here.

I have not used Duplicity Shade to justify my patterns, I have used Duplicity Shade to justify the star rating disparity.

I believe that LN patterning itself is a very inaccurate abstract concept especially in higher difficulty maps that blur the line between consistency and expressionism-

While I really appreciate your opinion and I do see sense in them since you are stating the fact which was the norm and still is, which I am putting in question right now with my map- I would genuinely like to know what the major issue is if SR and playability is not an issue.

Would there be a more fitting way to express the points that I wanted to represent with the staggered long notes? If so I would love to listen to your suggestion !

Let me summarize our viewpoint:

You think using interleaved LNs is feasible, but I think it is inappropriate. There is indeed no clear rule on whether it can be rank, and I mentioned earlier that there is already a precedent in your rank map.

What I want to explain is that doing so is very dangerous because there is no clear reason to believe that a certain LN should be 1/16 longer than others, so it can be 1/15, 1/17... (especially if all LNs start at 1/4) (of course, it is not necessary to explain all LNs in this way, as you said, in difficult maps, this concept is indeed ambiguous yes I agree).

The consequences I mentioned include but are not limited to people's views on Rank maps, as well as imitation by future generations. I think you should also know that there have been many imitations recently, which are not as experienced as you, but only superficial and make LN a mess

Of course, the above content cannot be used as an argument to force you to change, so I mentioned that you can close this anytime if you dont want to change ,

But I really want to write my concern here : Its dangerous
I hope I was overworried

(hmm whats more I dont think the music there is mess enough :3)

If I may interject, it's important that the LNs aren't too short. LNs can become quite short depending on the snappings used at a BPM this high. If they become too short, then getting good judgments on them becomes significantly harder. Many of the LNs in the section starting at 03:56:225 - are already 33ms.

I will leave it to others to judge the actual concepts though, as LN lengths and releases in general do appear to be quite "freeform" relatively speaking.

If anything is done about the LNs that are a bit longer, please remember to bear in mind the minimum viable LN length in all cases.

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For anyone else reading this: Leeju and AWMRone are aware of my opinions on this chart, but I will say that as the person who plastered my name all over Monoseul's veto of Seiga Itten due to Mono's concerns about being seen as not competent enough at 7K to push the veto, I don't think the SR here is enough of an issue for us to need to do something about it specifically.

Actually Leeju, speaking of short LNs, you may want to pay attention to something like 03:38:435 (218435|4) - 03:56:873 (236873|3) - 04:00:212 (240212|0) - which are all 25ms, breaking the guideline of the minimum short LN at 27-28ms (180 BPM 1/12)

This should absolutely be changed imo. You'll have to skim through the chart and look for excessively short LNs and change them as needed

At this level and speed, people are not going to be paying attention to releasing these on time, so it's basically a guaranteed 200 judgment or less

Readjusted patterning and fixed all short LNs that are too short - I understand the concern and have made changes to group up the LN releases more tightly and visually more organized, the patterning is less random and more similar to other conventional ranked hybrid entries ! (can open again if theres an issue)

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