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A rant about hitsounds

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74
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki
People seem to have the misconception that hitsounds really don't matter that much in relation to the rest of the map. They're just something that they put in because they have to to get it ranked, so they find some part of the map and put a stream of hitsounds there, dust their hands off and call it done. Either that or they put in some misfit pattern of either a pattern that doesnt fit (Oh, I know, lets put a finish on every blue tick cus it doesnt line up with the music very well YAY!) or a hitsound that doesnt fit (No good example for that but lets face it, for some maps some sounds just dont. work.)

Now I'm not going to point a finger at any map or anything, but its perfectly possible to RUIN the experience of your map by, for instance, having half of the notes in the map be loud whistles that kill my eardrums and make them bleed. I don't really understand why people defend these hitsounds but I, for one, am rather seriously concerned both for their hearing and for the ears of the poor players who are subjected to that map. While that is an extreme example, many times I see maps where a single badly misplaced sound disrupts the map just enough to distract a player momentarily. Furthermore, the hitsounds can often be what turns a GOOD map into a GREAT map and a GREAT map into a masterpiece.

So why do people dislike hitsound modding so much then? Why do they find the smaller tools, whistle, finish, and clap, to be SO much dwarfed by the rest of the map as to be nigh useless? IMHO the hitsounds are an important component in the ebb and flow of a map, which is to say they are part of the soul of the map. They add flair and spice to a map without changing its difficulty or disrupting patterns. Its not even that difficult to put them in - you select a note, press a button and voila! your map is better. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO COMPREHEND? I don't know, but I think you should consider it when you listen to maps, when you play them, when you mod them, and CERTAINLY when you map them.

</rant>

RemmyEDIT: Thread tl;dr: Stop sucking with hitsounds.
Last edited by RemmyX25 , edited 1 time in total.
mtmcl
mtmcl
I guess I just figure, if I want them to map it my way, I should have mapped the song myself.
HarryOrunitia
289 posts
Joined August 2008
HarryOrunitia
You get ear-bleeds by playing osu? I think you're the only one.
Actually I have nothing against hitsounds modding, I do that too sometimes, but they can't really be THAT bad in any map. I (almost) think a map should be rankable regardless of hitsounds.
And also, did you really need to open a thread about this?
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki

HarryOrunitia wrote:

You get ear-bleeds by playing osu? I think you're the only one.
Actually I have nothing against hitsounds modding, I do that too sometimes, but they can't really be THAT bad in any map. I (almost) think a map should be rankable regardless of hitsounds.
And also, did you really need to open a thread about this?

Yes, they can be that bad. Trust me on this. And I opened a thread about it because 1. i needed to rant and 2. its starting to become a bit of a problem because almost everyone is lenient to a fault on hitsounds
HarryOrunitia
289 posts
Joined August 2008
HarryOrunitia

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

HarryOrunitia wrote:

You get ear-bleeds by playing osu? I think you're the only one.
Actually I have nothing against hitsounds modding, I do that too sometimes, but they can't really be THAT bad in any map. I (almost) think a map should be rankable regardless of hitsounds.
And also, did you really need to open a thread about this?

Yes, they can be that bad. Trust me on this. And I opened a thread about it because 1. i needed to rant and 2. its starting to become a bit of a problem because almost everyone is lenient to a fault on hitsounds
I still have to play any map that bad then. Enjoy your thread I guess ._.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
osu! more like new rant everyday
Mogsy
osu! Alumni
3,450 posts
Here since the beginning
Mogsy
My view on the issue:

Usually, there is a perfect set of hitsounds within the way a mapper has mapped something and the mapper's personal style. If they're not getting the desired results, why SHOULDN'T we intervene?

In my honest opinion, I DO hold songs from ranking with unpolished hitsounds. Why? Because an unpolished map doesn't deserved to be played by the general public. Personally, I'd rather not have someone play a shoddily-assembled product that does somethings well and other things terribly. Would you rather have something average or something great?

As for 'impacting creativity', would you call random hitsounds that don't go with the music at all 'creative' and 'intuitive'? Because I sure as hell wouldn't. There's more than a fine line between taking creative liberties and just being lazy. Still working with a player's style and a map's style should yield the perfect results, and it doesn't impact creativity at all IMO. Maps can be as creative with hitsounds as they want, as long as they make sense while still being interesting, and I believe it is my job to see that a map is as close to perfect as a mapper can get it.
HarryOrunitia
289 posts
Joined August 2008
HarryOrunitia

Mogsworth wrote:

My view on the issue:

Usually, there is a perfect set of hitsounds within the way a mapper has mapped something and the mapper's personal style.
No. No, no no. Just no. You can say "Hey, this sounds bad, imo" but you can't really force anyone to change something just cause you think the way you do it is perfect. As long as "Follow Mogsworth's suggestions" isn't added to the rankability criteria, you can't really do that.
Mogsy
osu! Alumni
3,450 posts
Here since the beginning
Mogsy

HarryOrunitia wrote:

Mogsworth wrote:

My view on the issue:

Usually, there is a perfect set of hitsounds within the way a mapper has mapped something and the mapper's personal style.
No. No, no no. Just no. You can say "Hey, this sounds bad, imo" but you can't really force anyone to change something just cause you think the way you do it is perfect. As long as "Follow Mogsworth's suggestion" isn't added to the rankability criteria, you can't really do that.
It's not necessarily how I'd do it, either, I'm still working within a map's style, a-dur. Also, you're missing a critical part of the equation:

I'm a composer, I work with stuff like this on a daily basis in my field.

Oh, right, Mogsy knows what he's doing.

"but u cnat translyat dat 2 oh sue"

The thing is, I'm saying this:
-A map should have fully polished hitsounds before being ranked.
-I'm a lot more sensitive to hitsounds and what should be placed where according to mapper style, song style, and the map itself due to my background.
-Bad hitsounds are bad hitsounds, no matter what kind of BS you try to mask it with.

I look like a giant dick while saying this, but it's true, you're basically defending someone's right to have something that they didn't care for on all fronts get ranked. What you're saying is that a map shouldn't be able to reach its full potential.
HarryOrunitia
289 posts
Joined August 2008
HarryOrunitia

Mogsworth wrote:

I'm a composer, I work with stuff like this on a daily basis in my field.
So what? The fact that you are a composer doesn't really mean we can't have different opinions on hitsounds.

-A map should have fully polished hitsounds before being ranked.
And I guess it's you again who decides when they're "fully polished"?

-I'm a lot more sensitive to hitsounds and what should be placed where according to mapper style, song style, and the map itself due to my background.
Yeah I get it, I think this is like the fifth time you say it in this thread, and there's also your signature.

-Bad hitsounds are bad hitsounds, no matter what kind of BS you try to mask it with.
Matter of tastes, but I think the point of your post is: "let's ignore personal tastes".

I look like a giant dick while saying this, but it's true, you're basically defending someone's right to have something that they didn't care for on all fronts get ranked. What you're saying is that a map shouldn't be able to reach its full potential.
Yeah, now I look like a giant dick too.

EDIT: oh, I want to add, this will be my last post here, I really don't want to get in big arguments or whatever. I'm just telling my opinion and it shouldn't get personal. I have nothing against anyone here. I apologize to anyone who will be/was offendend by my posts D:
Last edited by HarryOrunitia , edited 1 time in total.
Mogsy
osu! Alumni
3,450 posts
Here since the beginning
Mogsy
It doesn't seem like you get it, quite honestly. You're really just trying to mask the fact that bad hitsounds exist.

u cnat d-cyde wuts rong or rite
Actually, yes, I can. I'm going by what my ear tells me. I'm not ignoring personal taste, either, in case you missed my other few posts.

othr peepz has uhpinyunz
I don't care, to be quite honest. If the change they refuse to fix is minuscule, I'll let it slide. However, if they try to keep something that doesn't sound the least bit good, I will try to calmly reason with them.

u cant d-cyd wuts polishd
Yes, I can. Quite honestly, as a BAT, I'm fully qualified to do that. So, I'm not the only one qualified.

EDORT: I apologize for being so rude, really. Nobody deserves that kind of treatment, and for some reason I felt like it was needed to drive the point home. I apologize if I possibly offended you. :/
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
I'm a composer, I work with stuff like this on a daily basis in my field.

Oh, right, Mogsy knows what he's doing.
First of all...this is Mogsy's signature quote...to me it is anyways.

But he doesn't seem to realize that people have different hitsound patterns and it does not need to be any specific way.
EDIT: Well maybe he does...but he gets picky sometimes...


And I guess it's you again who decides when they're "fully polished"?
Oh there is probably someone out there that could make it more polished than Mogsy...Mogsy can't be the best in the world...but maybe just osu! lol
Furthermore, the hitsounds can often be what turns a GOOD map into a GREAT map and a GREAT map into a masterpiece.
This is the definition of hitsound modding...and good beatmaps.
Bad hitsounds are bad hitsounds, no matter what kind of BS you try to mask it with.
Can't be that hard to tell if its a bad hitsound or not...just by listening...whistles in some beatmaps seem to make my head explode while some ( like for example my shugo chara beatmap ) sound enjoyable with the song.

In my honest opinion, I DO hold songs from ranking with unpolished hitsounds.
ztrot has ranked stuff with unpolished hitsounds...lol even though you two probably have a little history going on already.

Furthermore, the hitsounds can often be what turns a GOOD map into a GREAT map and a GREAT map into a masterpiece.
This is where hitsound modding comes in~

(yeah that's everything I wanted to reply to...osu! has seen my first long post...in black)
Mogsy
osu! Alumni
3,450 posts
Here since the beginning
Mogsy
Can't be that hard to tell if its a bad hitsound or not...just by listening...whistles in some beatmaps seem to make my head explode while some ( like for example my shugo chara beatmap ) sound enjoyable with the song.
Not to insult the general public, but most aren't able to tell.

...but he gets picky sometimes...
Only when it's of drastic importance.

Oh there is probably someone out there that could make it more polished than Mogsy...Mogsy can't be the best in the world...but maybe just osu! lol
Quite a backhanded compliment. :/

ztrot has ranked stuff with unpolished hitsounds...lol even though you two probably have a little history going on already.
I don't think I ranked any of their maps without hitsound-modding them to death.

I'm done with this.
The_Priest_In_Yellow
319 posts
Joined September 2008
The_Priest_In_Yellow
While taste is something very much subjective that should not be discussed, unless on equal footing. There are some sounds that sound universally bad.

A solid and understandable example is of course the difference between the two default soundsets; normal and soft. If a map looks good but sounds bad, eg. too high hitsounds volume (which can make whistle sounds unbearable imho) every mod, regardless of position, can point it out so that the mapper can fix it. Or at the very least try it out and make a choice whether to keep the original or modify it.

Speaking from personal experience I often get blinded by my own work, this might be because of pride or some other social function. Nevertheless, if I recieve a suggestion for hitsound modding I change it and listen through the map, trying to decide if I think it sounds better or not.

While a map needs hitsounds to rank, the positioning and composition of them has not been described. I believe this is why modding hitsounds is actually an important part of the mapping/modding collaboration since hitsounds, if well executed to suit the map and song, can contribute a lot to the atmosphere and gameplay of the actual map.

While they may be suggestions, one should not brush them off at an instant whilst proclaiming IT'S MY STYLE. Something I think mappers use unrighteously at times. Maybe even often.

I honestly don't care if the mod comes from a BAT or a user, from a composer or a streetperformer. If I think it adds to the map, I follow advice.

Mapping is not mapper vs mod, a battle to get your map ranked. It is a collaboration between two elements to create a map as good as possible, for players and you to enjoy.

Forgive me if I sound harsh and stray from the subject. But I thought it important to mention these things.

EDIT:
I don't really like tl;dr because an argument should be read in its entirety (sometimes twice) to reach a proper understanding.
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
Guys don't argue with the BATs they are always right.
Also I agree with SFG. Personally I add hitsounds while mapping, and I beleive they can definitely make a map sooooo much better. Take a good map and take the hitsounds out, you'll see what I mean.
Jarby
2,963 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby

Agent Spin Here wrote:

Guys don't argue with the BATs they are always right.
Cuddlebun
965 posts
Joined August 2008
Cuddlebun
oh boy another rant

inb4sticky
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki

Agent Spin Here wrote:

Guys don't argue with the BATs they are always right.

BAT are humans, too. We don't get some magical injection that gives us superhuman powers of modding when we get our BAT wings. Therefore, despite what you might think, its still perfectly possible for us to make mistakes.

In general, I have to say that Tippy stated my point a lot better than I did. "Style" is now, and from what I can tell has almost always been the overused way that mappers defend bad parts of the map because they're too lazy and/or proud to change them. But if a mapper truly wants what's best for their map they will at least ATTEMPT to change their map, with the full knowledge that if they don't like the way hitsound h sounds on note n, they can always take it back OFF again with no more than perhaps a minute of time wasted. There's a revert-to-saved option for a reason guys.

I'm not asking you to obey your modders blindly, and I certainly don't mean that you should blindly reject advice either; it works a whole lot better if you just open your eyes and judge by the actual merit of the points made.
foulcoon
osu! Alumni
1,384 posts
Joined July 2008
foulcoon

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Agent Spin Here wrote:

Guys don't argue with the BATs they are always right.

BAT are humans, too. We don't get some magical injection that gives us superhuman powers of modding when we get our BAT wings.
Coincidentally, there is no such thing as BAT wings either.

In other news, that guy on the first page who said he didn't want things to get personal after blatantly insulting Mogsworth and his profession who I forgot the name of because he was being a gigantic dick made me laugh. Laughing almost as much as that run-on sentence right there. If you didn't want things to get personal, don't attack his career choice.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
I think the problem is just that the point was missed. There is no single correct hitsound layout. There's bad, and there's good. It's not a black and white issue, but if you're not open to criticism or suggestions from any one individual, don't expect them to cave and bubble your map anyway.

Also, anyone who listens to music on a regular basis should be able to tell whether or not there's creative merit or that something "works". Everyone has opinions, sure. But maybe, just maybe, sometimes your "opinions" are just bad.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
My thinking on hitsounds is as follows:

If they are important to you, the mapper, put some effort into them! If a mod suggests changes, hear them out, but you like them the way they are, stick up for yourself! They can only benefit from the added consideration.

If they are not important to you, the mapper, then let somebody else do them for you. If you don't care about your hitsounds, then there's no reason to be too offended when a mod or bat makes extensive suggestions about them.

So I mean, either way, the only "wrong" way to do hitsounds is to be either lazy or haphazard with them.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
If hit sounds make a map sound like shit because of lack of them or spam, then there's a problem. Otherwise, I don't care.

Just my two cents :3
CheeseWarlock
osu! Alumni
1,185 posts
Joined May 2008
CheeseWarlock
Hitsounds are like any other aspect of a map. If someone, BAT or not, points out your hitsounds, you can change them or you can defend your choices. Don't be a defensive dick and start saying "it's just your opinion". The modder is trying to improve your map. Don't complain about the modder being too picky, their opinion is just as valid as yours.

And you know what? Not all opinions are created equal. There, I said it. Some people don't know what they're doing when it comes to some aspects of a map. There is not "a single right way to map (including hitsounds)", but there ARE wrong ways. And then it's up to people who know better when it comes to whatever aspect needs work to come along and mod it. It's a collaborative effort, like Tippy said, and if you're not willing to accept the fact that your map might need work, in any aspect, then you probably shouldn't be mapping in the first place. Unless all of your maps are flawless. And I'd like to see that.

Really, I would.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
I use the Elite Beat Osu skin because I like the hitsounds better. None of that loud default whistle. :D
An64fan
osu! Alumni
864 posts
Joined September 2008
An64fan
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Ochappy
27 posts
Joined June 2009
Ochappy
turn them off. Simple as that.
mtmcl
mtmcl

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Agent Spin Here wrote:

Guys don't argue with the BATs they are always right.

BAT are humans, too. We don't get some magical injection that gives us superhuman powers of modding when we get our BAT wings. Therefore, despite what you might think, its still perfectly possible for us to make mistakes.
Wait, you didn't get the injection?

Anyway, if a map sounds like shit without any hitsounds, doesn't that mean the song sounds like shit?

I think you all missed MY point, being that I'm the person who INITIALLY complained on this thread.

I'm saying I don't mod hitsounds. To be honest, I wouldn't be able to mod hitsounds effectively because I think hitsounds are OBNOXIOUS. Whistles always sound out of place because we're not cheerleaders or in the military or some shit. Whistles aren't music. Claps are cool sometimes, but it's still just an obnoxious distraction to the music.

So yeah, if I were to mod hitsounds, I'd tell the mapper to get rid of all whistles.

Do you want that? Probably not. So I don't mod hitsounds. I don't know what you people think is "right" or "wrong", but that's where I stand. Strange that your idea of "good" and "bad" is not actually universal.
RemmyX25
osu! Alumni
3,087 posts
Here since the beginning
RemmyX25

mtmcl wrote:

Claps are cool sometimes, but it's still just an obnoxious distraction to the music.
lol whoops ^^;;

But yea. Whistles are annoying out of place. I've seen very few maps where they are used rather well and not annoying.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
Oh god I couldn't agree more. I seriously hate using whistles they're horrid. When I see maps with tons of whistle spam I die a little inside. Yeah, it's user preference, but argh.

*doesn't even care anymore*
Mogsy
osu! Alumni
3,450 posts
Here since the beginning
Mogsy

Derekku Chan wrote:

Oh god I couldn't agree more. I seriously hate using whistles they're horrid. When I see maps with tons of whistle spam I die a little inside. Yeah, it's user preference, but argh.

*doesn't even care anymore*
Usually the whistle-spammed maps are using them incorrectly, anyways.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
I like whistles.

They are technically music BTW. Anyways, I like them because they're a good indicator of whether your volume/the map's hitsound volume is too loud, or just fine. If the whistles don't hit your ears, you're good to go. If they bug you, then your volume is most likely too loud (That, or the mapper needs to fix their volume).

Difference is clearest between two maps of the same mp3 with different hitsound volumes. I know from my experience this morning. I just tested it, too. So, what's the lesson?

Don't play osu! when your comp, headphone, and osu! volumes are all on max. I assure you that the result is not good for your ears.

As far as hitsounds go, if a person modding it knows how to make the hitsounds sound better, I say go for it. Hitsounds are very, very important in games like this. What do I mean by "games like this"? Why, games where sounds come when you press/hit the correct key/button/stick/pad/slot/etc.

tl;dr: Have your volume at a humane level and you'll be fine if the mapper checked to make sure that the whistles sounded good and weren't too loud to rape your ears. Mappers, don't be idiots please. Unless you're me.

P.S. By "humane", I mean that pretty much only you should be hearing the sound from the headphones. I should not be able to hear the sound from them clearly on a totally different floor, and/or on the other side of the room. After all, the point of headphones is so that only you hear the music, especially if it's rap. You hearin' this, classmates?
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo
My take on hitsound modding is this: only offer suggestions on how they can possibly improve their use of it, and not specifics ("put a whistle on this note").

For example, if they have an entire section filled with whistles, tell them that there are too many there and that they should remove some, but don't say *which ones* to remove.

If I feel some specific beats should have a specific hitsound, I would say "I *expected* to hear a whistle on this note while playing because [some reason eg. stacked notes]" or "try putting a whistle here, do you think it sounds better?", but never "put a whistle here or else"
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
mtmcl
mtmcl
I think I increasingly agree with Echo the more I hear from him.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
mtmcl you make me sick. Hitsounds are what MAKES osu! maps what they are. You should be left yearning for the hitsounds to be playing when you listen to a song without them. They should compliment the music. It does take skill to make them do this, but saying things like "whistles aren't musical" is pretty incorrect and a very personal opinion. I don't think a BAT should be sharing such opinions with the community as it may be misperceived.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki

mtmcl wrote:

Whistles always sound out of place because we're not cheerleaders or in the military or some shit. Whistles aren't music. Claps are cool sometimes, but it's still just an obnoxious distraction to the music.
1. cheerleaders...like ouendan? ;o

2. there are perfectly good uses for all hitsounds that make them sound good. ive seen maps where the whistles blend so closely with the song that you can remove them and they still sound like theyre there. not music? then why were they in the music? I use whistles in all of my maps, even normal whistles....in fact in my most recently ranked map i have individual sections of normal sampleset specifically for the purpose of using the normal whistle where it sounded good.

3. claps are another thing that can sometimes be found inside the music that you are mapping. again i ask: if they are obnoxious and distracting, why did the composers put them into the music to begin with? answer: they arent. they fit. they make it sound BETTER.

if you cant agree with those two points you should probably let someone else do your hitsounds for you because you suck at them.
Wojjan
806 posts
Joined August 2008
Wojjan
Why all the drama about hitsounds? This is just an issue of personal taste, but within limits. Like mapping itself is. I don't see a rage thread about bad use of sliders. They're there to complement, not to stand in the spotlight.
If a map has bad hitsounds, turn them off. Easy as that, I tend to do it sometimes too.

I personally like to use hitsounds on the vocals, or on certain syllables that need a stress. Of course, as a member of the TaikoM@ster group, my maps have hitsounds that make the map fun on taiko mod.

Example 1: Yie Ar Kung Fu
Taijin yamafuri oolong cha, Yie(whistle sounds like "ryie!") Ar Kung(The clap resembles a "kah!") Fu (Finishes sound life "shoow!")
Example 2: Dan Dan Dou
Thanks to the variation of hitsounds on repetitive parts, this map remains fun and replayable. Of course the patterns have something to do with that too, but the hitsounds are like a spice here. Also, check the Hyper diff on taiko. It's even better than standerd, I'd say.
Also, if you don't like the current Whistle and Clap sounds, feel free to change them, as you can use anything from a twinkle to a belch. (but please don't use the latter)
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
Usually if the whistle is too obnoxious in a given map I would suggest that they try turning the hitsound volume down a bit. Often it's the volume of the hitsounds relative to the song that makes them annoying.
nomedeusuarionaodisp
161 posts
Joined September 2008
nomedeusuarionaodisp
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
lol

what sounds right in some ears might sound bad in others.

im for giving suggestions on a beatmap, however requiring is abit to harsh. sure there are some maps that sounds really terrible to YOU with hitsounds, however thats what the rating system is for in the end.

hitsounds don't fit with a massive amount in all maps. instead of forcing the mapper on to hitsounds, how about just adding a comment like "you have to many claps" or "your whistles are to loud".

theres no a chance the mapper will learn how to use hitsounds good when you mod the shit out of his map with hitsounds and force your own style. the mapper will just get insecure by that.
mtmcl
mtmcl
@peppy and SFG

If you make your argument without insulting me, I'll respond to it.
Skyripper
osu! Alumni
1,016 posts
Joined August 2008
Skyripper
I think there are some exceptions, but in general, a map without hitsounds is incomplete in my opinion.

@mark: I will agree that the whistle sound CAN be annoying, but it's part of the game >_>. Luckily, we can optimize our hitsounds when mapping!
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
A map needs hitsounds, because if nothing else you want the player to feel like they're part of the music. If you don't like the hitsounds in either sample set and believe neither is good for your song, then get your own that do. The hitsounds are there to accent parts of the music that are particularly high-pitched, finalistic, or rhythmic. If your song doesn't have those elements, surely it has elements that vary. Songs that doesn't vary in sound like this aren't interesting music.

I think a big problem about hitsounds in regard to modding is the fact that they don't impact the playability of a note, as their effects are not felt until after the note has been hit. Timing, distance spacing, combos, and note-type choice are all elements closely criticized because they help people see what's coming, but hitsounds generally don't help the player know where the next note will be. It's also an audial concept instead of a visual one, so often you have to click the note to find out what it is in the editor, or play it back and then rewind.

Like all elements of mapping, hitsounds are subject to a degree of subjectivity when they go through the modding process. The mapper has the choice of accepting criticism or rejecting it. There is a point at which hitsounds can be so unliked that it is considered "bad" - not by some external standard, but by the community - to the point at which the map cannot progress any further unless there are changes.

For those debating creative freedom, think about it this way: the front page says, "Also available is a fully functional built-in editor, allowing intuitive creation of your own beatmaps for the songs you want to play." (emphasis sic) Notice that the page says nothing regarding ranking, popularity in the community, or general goodness. If you want to place crap hitsounds, then fine, that's your choice. Maybe you and your friends will enjoy it. But don't expect your map to go anywhere unless you use them in a way the majority of us (or at least 2 of us) think is good.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
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LuigiHann
I think people are being a little too hard on mtmcl's opinion. I think of it this way: If peppy were to ask me which shade of pink looks best on the website, and I hate all pink, it's probably best that I refrain from commenting, since I know that my opinion on the matter is unhelpful toward peppy's goal of the best-looking pink website. Similarly, if I hated the sound of whistles, my opinion on where the whistles sound the best would be rather unhelpful as well, since they'd sound bad to me in all places, so I would again refrain from commenting on them. In a more literally applicable sense, I suck at timing, so I let other people mod a map's timing, because my timing suggestions would be useless.

Sticking to what you know is a good thing, and there's no reason to insult mtmcl for doing so.
mtmcl
mtmcl

LuigiHann wrote:

I think people are being a little too hard on mtmcl's opinion. I think of it this way: If peppy were to ask me which shade of pink looks best on the website, and I hate all pink, it's probably best that I refrain from commenting, since I know that my opinion on the matter is unhelpful toward peppy's goal of the best-looking pink website. Similarly, if I hated the sound of whistles, my opinion on where the whistles sound the best would be rather unhelpful as well, since they'd sound bad to me in all places, so I would again refrain from commenting on them. In a more literally applicable sense, I suck at timing, so I let other people mod a map's timing, because my timing suggestions would be useless.

Sticking to what you know is a good thing, and there's no reason to insult mtmcl for doing so.
You put it better than I could.

And hell, if you play my maps, I'd say I place the hitsounds properly for the most part, so it's not like I suck with hitsounds. I just don't personally like them in most cases.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
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LuigiHann
I have no problem with people modding hitsounds. I do think if you pop a bubble over something like hitsounds, you better babysit the map and be ready to rebubble it even if they say "I don't like your suggestions," though.
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
deepsea
osu! Alumni
855 posts
Joined April 2008
deepsea
I sometimes mod hitsounds, also I don't deny hitsounds modding, it's a way that can make maps better after all. But in my opinion, hitsound moddings should be suggestion,hitsounds are not ABCD choice questions, they can sound good in more than one way. And a good hitsound for a person sometimes sounds not that good for others.

Also, seriously, please don't call people idiots simply because you don't like their creations, don't call maps shit simply because you don't like them. What you don't like is simply you don't like, not everyone.It's really immature to call someone idiot or something shit for this reason IMO.

My English sucks, my words may be offensive. I apologize here. If you don't want to read my shitty post, in short, I hate people to force others and even to insult people just because they don't like it.
mtmcl
mtmcl

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

the point of this thread is to keep idiot mappers from turning down point blank hitsound comments and to keep idiot modwatchers (those who mod the mods) from yelling at people who mod hitsounds.
Really, how do you expect people to listen to your arguments when they are mixed with insults? People have a right to be respected.

Also, if a BAT pops a bubble, they better babysit the map no matter why they popped the bubble. Most people seemed to agree with that in my thread in the mod lounge.
Alace
osu! Alumni
3,088 posts
Joined August 2008
Alace
Come on
ART HAS NO RULES

If i use my own standard to mod your hitsounds
you will all die~
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
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LuigiHann
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki

Alace wrote:

ART HAS NO RULES
cool i think ill sell you a mspaint stick figure for 20 million dollars and claim its as good as the mona lisa now. The fact is, art may technically have no rules to it, but regardless of the type of art, you have bad art and good art, and people who can tell the difference can help make bad art into good art assuming the artist gives a fuck about what they say. i can give you a long drawn out metaphor but i dont think you need it to understand what im talking about. a relatively small part of a picture can make a huge qualitative difference, and that is basically what hitsounding is.



mtmcl wrote:

Really, how do you expect people to listen to your arguments when they are mixed with insults? People have a right to be respected.
yeah i would really love to have the right to be respected but afaict if i dont bite your heads off you dont listen to me anyways, and this is important enough that i think you guys should listen.

if you really want i can go back to modding like
"i think you should please maybe try to put a hitsound on this note for the following fifty reasons please prettyprettyplease if you dont like it you can always take it back off again dont kill me for being the queen of nazi because i think that this one note might possibly sound a smidgen better even if its my only comment on the entire map"

BUT im sick of all that fucking BS for the sake of "leaving the mapper their style" and getting fucking attacked every time i dont mod like that. it may be the overly polite thing that you seem to so intensely desire but lets face it 1. its annoyingly long to read two or three sentance justifications and qualifications just to get what would have been a one-word comment 2. it implies that i have no fucking idea what im doing when i have every idea in the world what im doing and 3. for reasons 1 and 2 the mapper 90% of the time ignores the comment anyways.

im being blunt because i dont want this message tied up in ribbony lace so that people can think its just a small thing to put on their shelves and then ignore. i want people to understand, as my sig has been proclaiming for MONTHS and MONTHS, that most all comments are polite suggestions without my needing to bend over backwards to make it obvious, and i want people to also understand that despite their status as lowly suggestions they actually have merit to them as well.
deepsea
osu! Alumni
855 posts
Joined April 2008
deepsea
Seems that too many craps killed the point. Rewrote this and clear some craps.

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Alace wrote:

ART HAS NO RULES
cool i think ill sell you a mspaint stick figure for 20 million dollars and claim its as good as the mona lisa now. The fact is, art may technically have no rules to it, but regardless of the type of art, you have bad art and good art, and people who can tell the difference can help make bad art into good art assuming the artist gives a fuck about what they say. i can give you a long drawn out metaphor but i dont think you need it to understand what im talking about. a relatively small part of a picture can make a huge qualitative difference, and that is basically what hitsounding is.
Is bad art you think always bad art?

I hate a cake made with sour milk and shits because it is really a shit, and I hate fried chicken with black peppers. But can I say fried chicken with black peppers a shit because I hate it? People may call me an idiot if I do so.

Also, please discriminate "bad maps" and "maps that I dislike".

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

mtmcl wrote:

Really, how do you expect people to listen to your arguments when they are mixed with insults? People have a right to be respected.
yeah i would really love to have the right to be respected but afaict if i dont bite your heads off you dont listen to me anyways, and this is important enough that i think you guys should listen.
I think making argument persuasive is better way to make people listen, and also earn people's respect.

IMO, persuasive words with insults are mean, and unpersuasive words with insult are lame.

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

if you really want i can go back to modding like
"i think you should please maybe try to put a hitsound on this note for the following fifty reasons please prettyprettyplease if you dont like it you can always take it back off again dont kill me for being the queen of nazi because i think that this one note might possibly sound a smidgen better even if its my only comment on the entire map"
That's what I usually did.

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

BUT im sick of all that fucking BS for the sake of "leaving the mapper their style" and getting fucking attacked every time i dont mod like that. it may be the overly polite thing that you seem to so intensely desire but lets face it 1. its annoyingly long to read two or three sentance justifications and qualifications just to get what would have been a one-word comment 2. it implies that i have no fucking idea what im doing when i have every idea in the world what im doing and 3. for reasons 1 and 2 the mapper 90% of the time ignores the comment anyways.
What all that fucking BS you said is what I always do. I sometimes nazi hitsounds ,too. But I won't force people to change it unless it's bullshit like a cake made with sour milk and shit."bad hitsounds" and "hitsounds that I dislike" should be treated differently.

I leave the mapper their style.And I am that 10%.

Also, I hate people call "leaving the mapper their style" or treat people's mapper style as all that fucking BS.

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

im being blunt because i dont want this message tied up in ribbony lace so that people can think its just a small thing to put on their shelves and then ignore. i want people to understand, as my sig has been proclaiming for MONTHS and MONTHS, that most all comments are polite suggestions without my needing to bend over backwards to make it obvious, and i want people to also understand that despite their status as lowly suggestions they actually have merit to them as well.
I like to convince people by persuasive arguments instead of being blunt, seriously.

Also, I love what your sig said and how you did that before.


Yes I spent half an hour making this offensive shit. Hope this can be clear enough. And another 15 minutes to fix lol.

Also, apologize for offensive words what I really really really don't want to type.
Last edited by deepsea , edited 2 times in total.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

BUT im sick of all that fucking BS for the sake of "leaving the mapper their style" and getting fucking attacked every time i dont mod like that. it may be the overly polite thing that you seem to so intensely desire but lets face it 1. its annoyingly long to read two or three sentance justifications and qualifications just to get what would have been a one-word comment 2. it implies that i have no fucking idea what im doing when i have every idea in the world what im doing and 3. for reasons 1 and 2 the mapper 90% of the time ignores the comment anyways.
if he ignores your mod isn't that fine enough saying he doesn't want to change it? honestly people are not that much of assholes to ignore mods unless they truly belive that they have the right hitsounds for their map. there are a massive amount of players and modders in osu, im pretty sure if a map had so bad hitsounds that it can hardly be played, people will complain.


Saturos-fangirl wrote:

im being blunt because i dont want this message tied up in ribbony lace so that people can think its just a small thing to put on their shelves and then ignore. i want people to understand, as my sig has been proclaiming for MONTHS and MONTHS, that most all comments are polite suggestions without my needing to bend over backwards to make it obvious, and i want people to also understand that despite their status as lowly suggestions they actually have merit to them as well.
i think you are over-reacting. also you seem to be the only one who is having this problem apparently (maybe a very few other BAT's). by being "blunt" like you are right now and attacking peoples oppinions, what position do you think that puts you in? do you actually think you are going to win peoples respect by this? i really doubt it. i would hate it if people were to insult me in some way.
Last edited by Gabi , edited 1 time in total.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
Let's keep the drama to a minimum. Good points have been made, but I think the value of nitpicking people's posts at this point is small enough that I don't feel like locking the thread will hurt it
deepsea
osu! Alumni
855 posts
Joined April 2008
deepsea

Ekaru wrote:

What?

All that SFG is saying, basically, is that people shouldn't totally disregard a modding post just because it's all about hitsounds, and that they make a big part of the map. They should at least try it, and see if they like it better. Instead, they often just disregard the post because they think hitsounds don't matter, and call the modder an asshole or something similar, even though it was just a suggestion. That's all she's saying, honestly.

people shouldn't totally disregard a modding post just because it's all about hitsounds, and that they make a big part of the map. They should at least try it, and see if they like it better.

I 100% agree this, and it's what I always do no matter who give me opinion. Also, this is what I hope mapper do, I sometimes nazi hitsounds, and I never face situation like that.

If mappers just disregard the post because they think hitsounds don't matter, and call the modder an asshole or something similar. Then I call them assholes as well. If this happens "often", then just ignore my previous shit, or tell me then I will delete that.

Ekaru wrote:

Also, on the internet, you often *have* to be blunt to get your point across. Some people are really stubborn with thick skulls. I know from experience that being polite doesn't always work, you have to be direct at times. Can't really blame her for being blunt, because that's often what you have to do just to get the point across. It's how English works; since lots of American male teenagers are both stubborn *and* fail at their native language, you have to make it simple for them to understand, while also adding a bit of an edge. How sharp depends on the situation. Sometimes it's dull, other times it's sharp. But yeah, that's English for ya.
OK I reread my post after few minutes. I simply hate people call "leaving the mapper their style" a fucking BS or treat mapper's style as a fucking BS. Maybe I just type too many craps then lost the point.

I think most people here are polite regardless some jokes and lames(Yes I did that, too), at least people what I met in this 1 year and 3 months. That's why I love osu. If there are those people who are stubborn with thick skulls, then I won't deny to be blunt. Just like nuking and making lemon tree an April fool butt or throw down the cake made with sour milk and shit. I did this to some nonsense maps. But I won't refer all maps and mappers to shits and being blunt.Extreme is extreme, a black sheep can't represent all people and osu.

And yes I do suck at English and I do learn some from this post. Thanks for this and making things clear anyway.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki
all right let me try this one more time before i give up on communication entirely, since im doing such an incredibly bad job that other people have to interpret my posts for the people reading this thread.

if someone sees something that could largely improve a map or something that is largely detracting from a map i believe that it is, in effect, their DUTY to point that out to the mapper.

i compare someone who lets these messes slide to someone who watches a crime happen and does nothing to stop it. he is not a criminal, but he is not exactly to blame either.

and as a side note, Alace, you said that if you modded hitsounds to your standards it would be horrible, but as a mapper, ive had times when i wanted nothing more than to have a hitsound expert like yourself go through my maps and be as critical as possible over my hitsounds. that way i could combine knowledge with them and produce a better map, and furthermore improve my mapping overall.


there are some comments that are over the line. looking at a map and saying "i dont like this map, remap the whole thing" is wrong (no offense to peppy). saying "i dont like the hitsounds on this map, let me take it for you and rehitsound the whole thing" is wrong, unless the mapper gives you permission to do so first. i think some people take the line and put it too far into helpful commentary for the sake of stubborn mappers or personal leniency. and i think that that is also wrong.


please ask me if i need to clarify any of what i just said a few more times before i finally get my thoughts lined up enough to communicate them properly, and i apologize for my earlier rudeness while i was being frustrated by my inability to communicate.
deepsea
osu! Alumni
855 posts
Joined April 2008
deepsea
Time to back to topic and clean up the mess.

I agree hitsound modding, it's a way to improve beatmap anyway. But I don't force people to change unless it's a shit. Cause art has no rules, osu is fun because we have many kinds of mappers and many kinds of maps. In my experience, mappers do try, and mostly take my suggestions, sometimes they don't take it but their reason do convince me so I just let it go.

I think thing is more clear in this way instead of mix with offensive metaphor craps. Also apologize to people who see my shitty posts in last hours. Feel free to blame or flame me if you want.

Popipopipopopipo.
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo
You guys are so good at picking at other people's posts, I think you'll all make great mafia players.
Cuddlebun
965 posts
Joined August 2008
Cuddlebun

Echo wrote:

You guys are so good at picking at other people's posts, I think you'll all make great mafia players.
*shameless plug*
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki

Echo wrote:

You guys are so good at picking at other people's posts, I think you'll all make great mafia players.
hey yeah thats a great idea i should go join some mafia game~ i bet id be good at it ;o
Ryuukun
476 posts
Joined December 2008
Ryuukun
yes i say it opely...
I don't like hitsounds at all.
They disturb the song in my eyes(/ears).
The only acceptable hitsounds so far are the taiko ones.
The rest annoys me
kideddie1501
322 posts
Joined October 2008
kideddie1501
Wow, glad someone opened up this thread. Yes, some hit sounds are just so ridiculously placed that at times it throws of my rhythm and often times i crack a combo. For example, red series of hitcircles: 1-2-3(Master)-4? Why would the loudest , most distinct sound not be on the end of the combo? Also, whistles do get over used cuz mappers think they are Ouendan programers and must make their maps equally annoying as Osu! Takkae! Ouendan! 8-)
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Topic Starter
Yuukari-Banteki
those are the kinds of hitsounds i try to mod OUT dears, not the type i try to mod IN
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
I think one of the reasons hitsounds sound good or bad to different people are their speakers. I use my laptop to play osu!, usually with headphones on. But on odd times where I map without headphones and simply use the Macbook speakers, they sound a lot different.
So yeah, I think half of the problem is that people are actually hearing different things, and not just personal hitsound preference alone.
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