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Madeon - Finale

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Topic Starter
Behon
This beatmap was submitted using in-game submission on Saturday, June 29, 2013 at 6:53:46 PM

Artist: Madeon
Title: Finale
Source: PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale
Tags: intro theme techno dance video game
BPM: 92
Filesize: 9189kb
Play Time: 03:09
Difficulties Available:
  1. All-Star (4.22 stars, 278 notes)
  2. Hero (0.95 stars, 124 notes)
  3. Legend (1.85 stars, 155 notes)
Download: Madeon - Finale
Information: Scores/Beatmap Listing
---------------
Your last chance, last summer
Your last dance to the beat of your own drummer
Go out fighting, go out young
A flash of lightning splits the sun
5/10: Added other difficulties, custom combo bursts and applause, and moved to Pending.
5/27: Made changes suggested by AlpacaCokelat and 23HANNA32.
jyu
Hello, m4m from your mod queue
badass song yo

General
idk but because the game name is "PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale" , they should go to the source, not Tags

01:27:519 - ~01:48:389 - the break time is too long and wasteful orz you could've mapped some of them

01:58:824 - this feels empty without kiai

y u no gridsize 4

Hero
OD-1


00:58:824 (1) - 03:04:041 (1) - these spinners are really unnecessarily too long orz especially the last one. Since this is the easiest diff, i suggest you to shorten those spinner / making it two flips coin / map some of them

00:31:433 (3,1) - the current position is not neat ( circle 1 touching slider 3, and the flow is not really good ). If you want, 00:33:389 (1) - can be placed under the previous slider, making a blanket :3 http://puu.sh/2RRNk.jpg
00:36:650 (3) - i prefer the shape like this http://puu.sh/2RRRi.jpg it interacts with previous slider more
00:45:128 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - not really sure about them, probably beginners will be confused with these but idk this is only my opinion
00:48:389 - add a note? (there's a drum) and to keep the pattern's flow
02:07:954 (3) - a little bit to the left so it'll blanket previous slider
02:24:911 (1) - this pattern is quiet hard to read because it follows the vocal and the vocal isn't really stand out, so it feels kinda weird when it ends at red ticks. I suggest you to end this slider either at 02:26:215 - or 02:26:867 -
02:32:737 (3) - how about this slider mirror 02:30:128 (1) -
03:01:106 (3) - even though you're following the vocal, i suggest you to end this slider 03:02:737 -

Legend
OD-1

00:48:063 (1) - i prefer if you make this slider all whistle, not just the head. feels kinda empty, because the previous sliders are full whistle
00:57:193 (5) - ^
01:24:585 (5) - add clap (tail) ?
02:11:704 (4) - same as the first one
02:55:563 (2,3,2,3) - i prefer to make them slider
03:04:041 (1) - damn that's a long spinner

All-Star
01:22:302 (1) - adjust the blanket more
01:25:237 - add a note
02:06:487 (7,8,9,10) - how about making them multiple reversed slider?

02:16:922 (7,8,9,10) - ^
02:56:867 (6,6) - add whistle?

Your pattern style is like the 2007's, i suppose following the today's style won't hurt, after all you're an experienced mapper.
There's not much i can help you in this diff, i'm sorry :( well my suggestion in this diff is to follow the consistence rhythm more and add jumps, don't just follow the vocal

Good luck~
23HANNA32
M4M

~Hero~

00:23:606 (3) - Finish at the end?
00:37:954 (4) - Finish?
00:55:889 (2) - 00:55:563 (1) - and this is why not overlapping?
00:56:867 (3) - 00:57:193 (4) - and this overlap
02:00:128 (3) - Finish at the end?

~Legend~

01:07:628 (1) - Finish?

Good Luck~
Topic Starter
Behon

AlpacaCokelat wrote:

Your pattern style is like the 2007's, i suppose following the today's style won't hurt, after all you're an experienced mapper.
People keep telling me this, and I have no idea what they mean. What, putting in nothing but annoying and frustrating 5.00 deathstream-filled difficulties is considered great these days? :o
KinkiN

Behonkiss wrote:

AlpacaCokelat wrote:

Your pattern style is like the 2007's, i suppose following the today's style won't hurt, after all you're an experienced mapper.
People keep telling me this, and I have no idea what they mean. What, putting in nothing but annoying and frustrating 5.00 deathstream-filled difficulties is considered great these days? :o
Well it's not considered great. I've tried your map (All-Stars). imo It has too much circles. You can only see this kind of map in a special case or in an older maps. maybe that's why your style is considered 'old'. maybe you can reduce the usage of circles a bit?

(All-Stars) seems have too high acc. maybe you can use 5-stars accuracy instead of 7. Also the timing seems to be off a bit ( This can be the case ). Usage of sliders must be considered too because acc doesn't really affect sliders. 300 in sliders make ppl happy :3

And after taking a fast check, (Legend) Diff have too high acc rate, for a [Normal] map. you can lower it to 3 stars.
(Hero) diff should have less circle size, umm maybe 3 is great? because it's hard too play a map that have 4 stars circle size for a newbie. and this map was supposed to be easy right? Easy map should have more sliders than circles. I've read about it somewhere in the wiki.

idk if this is considered as a modding, but if i said something that aren't clear to you, just ask me :3
CXu
Yo, just as a response to http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/2326175
I took a look at your [All-Star] difficulty to see what all the fuzz was about.

To be completely honest, for the highest difficulty, it's rather boring to play.
A map doesn't need lol39484bpm deathstreams to be fun, but a lot of players find those types of things fun because they give a kind o thrill to playing. For anyone who can't play the highest difficulty of a map, they can instead play a lower difficulty. At least from what I see, you should try to make the most people have fun while playing the mapset as a whole. It doesn't help for the map to be accessible to a lot of players, if said players find the map boring. Instead, creating a good spread can achieve the same accessibility, just for your whole mapset instead, and gives you much more freedom to do different and interesting patterns for your highest difficulty.

Now to the map itself, here's the general impression I get from it: none.
What I mean by this is that, most of the good maps I play (even if they are just standard tv size maps or similar) leaves some kind of impression on me, either because of an interesting pattern, a hard part, a very intuitive part, distinct slidershape, symmetry that plays well etc. Right now, your map is very... Well, straightforward, and thus lacks that something to make a longstanding impression on the player.

Going deeper onto the patterns, there's a lack of variety. The stacks such as 00:26:052 (1,2,3,4) - could easily be moved around to create interesting movements for players. Moving the around also matches the change in pitch on each note, as the sensation of hitting something on the spot is more like repeating the sound. You also simplify the rhythm, such as at 00:23:769 - , which honestly doesn't play that well. Also mixing in sliders instead of always going with notes creates variety as well, even when the main rhythm stays the same. For example, the notes at 00:29:965 (7,8,9,10) - Feel more like long, held notes at (7) and (9), and as such, would still feel good even if you change them to sliders. These days, copy-paste is also considered fairly lazy and lacks creativity. You should probably remap the part at 01:58:824 - as well. Of course you'd like to keep a similar rhythm pattern to your previous "chorus", but a direct copy-paste of a section that doesn't make any real long-lasting impression makes the map boring. If you have a section that looks very great visually, and flows very well, then copy-pasting that for a similar section is fine, as that part was probably already considered fun by the player, and thus he/she would like to play it more.

You also seem to strictly stick with distance snap, which in itself is probably fine, though that again can lead to a lack of variety, and thus render your map "boring". If you are going to use one spacing, you might also want to consider 1.0x or similar, as the amount of movement you actually need to make on this map is, well, not a lot.

All in all, that's what I think is the general reason people think your map is "outdated" or whatever. Of course, you're free to disagree with the stuff I say here. But if you do decide to try what I've pointed out here, then be prepared to remap a lot. Your new map doesn't need to be a lol39484bpm deathstreams everywhere map, and can be just made more interesting even with the current basic rhythm. Just to take an example from your map that I think matches the current mapping trend, then 02:20:346 (1,2,1,2) - is very good, because of the clean, symmetrical nature. It also fits the section well as there are long sounds going around.

Also, I don't really think it will considering how you're trying to actually figure out this, but I'll say it anyway: don't be discouraged by what I or anyone else says really. In the end, it's all about how you want to make a map yourself that's important. There's not really a reason to map in a way you yourself don't enjoy. It still probably wouldn't hurt if you did try to match up to the current "mapping trend" though, with the heavy use of sliders, irregular spacing and/or pattern based mapping styles. I mean, at some point, you'd probably find a way to incorporate those elements into your current mapping style.

That's all I guess.

I actually do like to play oldstyle maps, so I don't have that much against this map at all. :P

Edit: Oh I totally forgot, but if you want my opinion on anything, general questions to what I said or well, idk stuff that you can come up with, you could probably catch me in-game. Just ask me there about it. I do have exams like tomorrow till thursday though, so I probably won't have a lot of time until after that (I have no idea why I'm even here when I have an exam tomorrow but oh well).
Topic Starter
Behon
Both of the above are definitely helpful. I'll take a more in-depth look at them later when I do my next round of refinements for this song.
Topic Starter
Behon
Okay, I took another look at what you both said, and while there are a couple of useful tips, I'm still baffled by other parts. People hate circles? What's wrong with playing like the Ouendan/EBA games? I find the stuff in those way more fun and replayable than almost every ranked map these days. Also, this quote:
A map doesn't need lol39484bpm deathstreams to be fun, but a lot of players find those types of things fun because they give a kind o thrill to playing.
So you're basically saying, "A map doesn't need deathstreams to be fun, but that's what people find fun". I have no plan to ever resort to deathstreams, because I find those cheap, frustratingly hard, and usually don't flow well with the song they're used in. What else do modern players find fun?
KinkiN

Behonkiss wrote:

Okay, I took another look at what you both said, and while there are a couple of useful tips, I'm still baffled by other parts. People hate circles? What's wrong with playing like the Ouendan/EBA games? I find the stuff in those way more fun and replayable than almost every ranked map these days. Also, this quote:
A map doesn't need lol39484bpm deathstreams to be fun, but a lot of players find those types of things fun because they give a kind o thrill to playing.
So you're basically saying, "A map doesn't need deathstreams to be fun, but that's what people find fun". I have no plan to ever resort to deathstreams, because I find those cheap, frustratingly hard, and usually don't flow well with the song they're used in. What else do modern players find fun?

Hmm i myself don't particularly hate circles, but if because of 1 circle i fail to got a SS, i would definitely hate that. My point is , in a physichological terms, ppl will be more happy if they got a SS Rather than only got a S ryt?that kind of maps that having too much circles really helps people to gain a S ranks. As i mentioned before, acc doesn't really affect sliders. So if a map only have sliders, dont have any circles i'm positive that would be many ppl SS'ing that maps even that maps have 10 stars acc rate.


If you don't understand what i'm talking about, just say it :D

EDIT : Forgot to post about my point. My another point is : imo It's not like they don't like maps that you made, but they definitely don't like it if they FC'ed your map, but got a B because of low acc (And that's what I'm going through yesterday). And imo it's because of an unfamiliar pattern. You can combine 2 circles into a 1 slider, etc.

imo again , Amount of Circles and Sliders you should use in a map

- Easy : Circles < Sliders ( e.g : 30 circles and 65 sliders )
- Normal : Circles < Sliders ( e.g : 44 circles and 60 sliders )
- Hard : Either way is fine. Balanced? ( e.g : 100 circles and 112 sliders )
- Insane : No opinion, since it's not usual for me to play insane maps.

Also try to varies the type of sliders . e.g : You can make the sliders similar to a heart symbol, if the song is a love song, etc.
CXu

Behonkiss wrote:

A map doesn't need lol39484bpm deathstreams to be fun, but a lot of players find those types of things fun because they give a kind o thrill to playing.
So you're basically saying, "A map doesn't need deathstreams to be fun, but that's what people find fun". I have no plan to ever resort to deathstreams, because I find those cheap, frustratingly hard, and usually don't flow well with the song they're used in. What else do modern players find fun?
Uhh no. I said a lot of people find deathstreams fun. I didn't say that a map needs deathstreams to be fun. And where do you put the difference between a regular stream and a deathstream? Now that I think about it, it's not like the majority of the maps ranked today have a deathstream (to my standards anyway).

Why do you find deathstreams cheap? Yes, they may be frustratingly hard for some players, but a lot of times a deathstream does emphasis something within the music, for example a drum buildup or a guitar solo or similar. Also, your comment about flow is probably much more subjective, and it's also connected to how well you can play the game itself. For example, some players find the 0108 sliderspamfestmaps to flow really badly to begin with, but after they raise their skill level, they change their opinion to fun and intuitive. It is fine to never resort to deathstreams though, as there are many other ways to map. For example, many repeatsliders or a spinner could possibly do the trick as well. If you do decide to try using deathstreams, ask other players for opinions, as that'll probably give you a feel of what actually does flow well, and what doesn't, without you having to be able to play it.

Modern players find a lot of stuff fun. They can find horizontal jumps cool, or their favorite might be back-and-worth zigzag patterns, 5 triples in a row for a buildup, a specific long stack whereas the map generally doesn't use stacks, lots of stacks, antijumps, compressed streams, spaced streams, sliderspam, squares, circular flowing patterns, increasing spacing, windmills etc.
What they all have in common though, is that they break with the basic maps. You could say that most maps these day have the basic, distance snapped map as the skeleton, while all the quirks that're added onto the map is the flesh; Only when you have both, you get a complete map.
Most of the time, there is a set theme for the map as well. For example, you don't use spaced streams a lot/at all if you set out using compressed streams. If you do, you do it for specific sections such as the chorus or similar. Maybe only the chorus is jumpy, or maybe the bridge has antijumps. Right before the chorus could need a deathstream if the song calls for it, or just to make a general 1/2 pattern more interesting by adding a windmill to the mix.

There's lots you can do to make your map more interesting and fun to play, you just have to pick something that fits the overall feel of the song, and then stick with consistently.
mancuso_JM_
I really love this song.. Feel free to contact me via PM (in-game or forums is ok) if you decide to revive this map and continue with it!
BanchoBot
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