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[Rule] Do not use pure white or black combo colors.

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Topic Starter
Zare
So with today's disqualification of http://osu.ppy.sh/s/192995, the problem about black and white combo colors (0,0,0 and 255,255,255) has gotten quite some attention.
Since it's apparently an "unwritten rule" to not use these, I propose to actually write it down for clarification, since mappers just cannot be expected to know about it or how it affects skins or strobing in kiai times.
Wording can be pretty simple.

Do not use pure white (RGB code 255,255,255) or black (RGB code 0,0,0) combo colors. This is to prevent technical issues with some skins as well as strobing within kiai times, and can also help to prevent the hitobjects blending with the (dimmed) background.
Kaguya Hourain
Yay my debut in this part of the forums!
About time this happened to be honest.
DakeDekaane
I remember this rule being in the past, or don't remember where i read it, but yes, this should be added.
Garven
I really don't see this as something that should be as a rule criteria at all - especially if we're basing things off the default skin which doesn't have issue with either combo color unless you're using peppysliders that make distinguishing sliderticks difficult with the white color only.


If things do boil down to that point, just skin a slidertick that is visible on those types of sliders and there won't be an issue.


Black combo color... I don't see any problems with it with default skin. The only argument I've seen is for people that delete BGs or dim it, and they can just not dim it all the way or force their own combo colors. There are so many options available, and the only detriment in the default settings is pretty easily avoided with the one skin element added.

If anything, we should take this opportunity to show that it shouldn't be regarded as a rule at all and move it more towards a guideline with options listed in case the mapper decides to pursue these particular colors as options.
xxdeathx

Garven wrote:

I really don't see this as something that should be as a rule criteria at all - especially if we're basing things off the default skin which doesn't have issue with either combo color unless you're using peppysliders that make distinguishing sliderticks difficult with the white color only.


If things do boil down to that point, just skin a slidertick that is visible on those types of sliders and there won't be an issue.


Black combo color... I don't see any problems with it with default skin. The only argument I've seen is for people that delete BGs or dim it, and they can just not dim it all the way or force their own combo colors. There are so many options available, and the only detriment in the default settings is pretty easily avoided with the one skin element added.

If anything, we should take this opportunity to show that it shouldn't be regarded as a rule at all and move it more towards a guideline with options listed in case the mapper decides to pursue these particular colors as options.
On the topic of dark combo colors, there should be a guideline against them at all because when a map has something like a dark blue combo color (fairly common),
  1. you play without dimming background/video and that distracts you
  2. you dim background/video and now the background is black and it's very hard to see the dark colored approach circles.
Garven
Dim isn't a default setting. It's an option. Dark combo colors are only an issue if they blend too much into the chosen background.
Raging Bull
Imo should be more of common sense thing. White combo color on black bg is fine and vice versa.
Stefan

Raging Bull wrote:

Imo should be more of common sense thing. White combo color on black bg is fine and vice versa.
This. This isn't only black/white but also how xxdeathx said dark blue as example can be really hard to read with a bad background contrast. No need for a rule, just mention to use no distracting Combo colours with backgrounds. If they plays bad tell them to change, if not it gets nuked somewhen and we're happy.
Sonnyc
Seeming the existance of a dim, avoiding pure black seems quite reasonable, but not for pure white.
Gumpy
Did not know that.
Deif
According to the article Kiai Time of the Wiki:

Do not use pure white combo color (255,255,255); it makes Kiai blinding and hurts the eyes.
It's true that it has been an old non-written rule... But having it as an official one? That's one of the parameters that falls under the common sense of the mapper and therefore it should be a guideline if you want.

Pure black and darker colours in general are generally by me a no-no, since they don't usually fit with most of the BGs and tbh many players dim them completely, which makes the approach circle almost unreadable. On the other hand, I play with a skin which elements are made of pure white, so that Wiki article tends to be irrelevant for me.

What I want to say is that it should be up to the mapper, and only if it causes (sight)reading issues, it must be pointed out by the modders.
Topic Starter
Zare
The thing is that maps are getting unranked over this, I just want something to refer to when that happens so mappers as well as modders can read it up in the RC. That way such things can be prevented beforehand.

Well either that or we agree on this not being necessary, making white and black colors indisputably rankable.
Stefan

Zare wrote:

The thing is that maps are getting unranked over this, I just want something to refer to when that happens so mappers as well as modders can read it up in the RC.
That's basically really really bad when nobody notices that through the modding process and really shouldn't happen. How said, common sense prevents such unqualifies and black/white doesn't need to be unrankable. Adding as guideline instead is way better.
Lust

Garven wrote:

Dim isn't a default setting. It's an option. Dark combo colors are only an issue if they blend too much into the chosen background.
Using that logic, forcing their own combo colors should not be used as an argument since it is not a default setting (maybe it is, correct me if I'm wrong). Combo coloring is meant to provide not only a means to replenish HP but to give an intended experience from the mapper to the player as well. The colors that are on the polar ends of the spectrum make it harder for players to enjoy the mapset to its fullest. In any case, this is really a minor thing - I would suggest making this a guideline as opposed to a rule instead. BAT members can take it on a case by case basis (if its playable and lools fine on the map then leave the colors) and if there is an issue the QAT can handle it.

EDIT: Stefan you ninja
Topic Starter
Zare

Stefan wrote:

Zare wrote:

The thing is that maps are getting unranked over this, I just want something to refer to when that happens so mappers as well as modders can read it up in the RC.
That's basically really really bad when nobody notices that through the modding process and really shouldn't happen. How said, common sense prevents such unqualifies and black/white doesn't need to be unrankable. Adding as guideline instead is way better.
Scenario A
"Hey mapper, can you please change your combo colors? These RGB codes aren't allowed!"
"Hey modder, no i won't change this, I can't see a rule that says so!"

Scenario B
"It's a guideline!"
"There's also a guideline that states to not map songs that are longer than 3 minutes, they're not exactly up-to date or in any way relevant."

Scenario C
"Hi I'm a BAT that joined osu! a year ago, I'm ranking this map as it complies with the RC perfectly!"
"Hi I'm the QAT and neither the mapper nor the modders or BATs can be expected to know about this, but this is unrankable and I will need to unrank this map which causes additional unneeded work and stress for everyone!"

None of this seems very pleasant. Make it a rule or make it perfectly rankable in all cases.
Sure
Combo colors setting is up to BG, video, skin and so on.
You never distinguish between (0,0,0) and (0,1,0)
Guideline is better.
Garven
First let's establish WHY using these colors is bad and find which reasons are determined to be actually detrimental to gameplay. We can tailor this proposition to fit the scenarios we find.

From what I've seen:

White combo colors:

Kiai is very bright.
-I think this was from a long time ago when kiai flashes were much stronger. They were reduced significantly and I haven't really heard this reasoning very often

Cannot see slider ticks when using original sliderstyle
-Can suggest to skin in a slider tick that is visible for this situation and the white combo color is fine to use

Black combo colors:

Hard to see when dim is used excessively
-Shouldn't apply since we need to enforce things when everything is at default setting, so everything is on and visible. This would be more of a suggestion/guideline.

Unless there are other angles presented, the only absolute I'm seeing here is against the white combo color, in which there is an option to circumvent the problem and continue using it.
Deif

Garven wrote:

Unless there are other angles presented, the only absolute I'm seeing here is against the white combo color, in which there is an option to circumvent the problem and continue using it.
That hypothetical limitation shall only be used in standard, whilst in CtB the white combo colour is the most preferred option (via skinning) for most of the elite players. Also, even having the overlay of the default skin (which is black), there should be enough contrast to read this colour properly, and therefore it shouldn't be applied any limitation of that regard.
Stefan

Zare wrote:

Scenario A
"Hey mapper, can you please change your combo colors? These RGB codes aren't allowed!"
"Hey modder, no i won't change this, I can't see a rule that says so!"
This falls under the section quality. And if named mapper rejects to improve his map and to fix this debacle then I see no reason to rank the map because of stubbornness.

Zare wrote:

Scenario B
"It's a guideline!"
"There's also a guideline that states to not map songs that are longer than 3 minutes, they're not exactly up-to date or in any way relevant."
This is a awful example. However it says guidelines CAN be broken in special cases and this one would be a case to not break.

Zare wrote:

Scenario C
"Hi I'm a BAT that joined osu! a year ago, I'm ranking this map as it complies with the RC perfectly!"
"Hi I'm the QAT and neither the mapper nor the modders or BATs can be expected to know about this, but this is unrankable and I will need to unrank this map which causes additional unneeded work and stress for everyone!"
Yes that could happens. And we have guidelines for that. At the end it's still the logic behind the question to use 0,0,0 as Combo colour in a beatmap which is completely black or not.
Ayu
I use 255,255,255 in the skin I use for mapping (and playing), and it's probably the one i like most. I also keep it in when I can (no bright bg, w/ white color?).

Nonetheless I already have at least 3 ranked maps with the white combo color. I love it and I really see no reason how it hinders anything.

On the other hand, I can understand that people hate the black combo color, as dim is highly preferred by pro players and any amount of dim already hinders with a black combo.
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