I wasn't sure to add this topic here or in Ranking Criteria. Feel free to move it to wherever it fits better!

The purpose of this thread is to set some standards in order to make a nice difficulty spread in CTB mapsets, or just to define exactly how a Cup, Salad, etc should be. It should be something similar to: http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Hard

I wrote while ago a basic definition of each difficulty, but they're far away from being an official reference:

1. Cup: Your dash button shouldn't even have to be used.
2. Salad: No HDashes can appear yet.
3. Platter: Some easy HDashes can be used with caution.
4. Rain: HDashes and dashes are meant to be suitable for all players.
5. Overdose/Deluge: HDashes and dashes are more challenging.

Topics to clarify:

1. Definition of the difficulty.
2. Difficulty settings: AR/OD, HP, CS.
3. Note density.
4. Recommended slider velocity.
5. (Any other characteristic that defines a difficulty!)

Please discuss!

using the smallest CS on any difficulty is discouraged
it shouldnt be "recommended slider velocity" but rather "recommended number of slider velocity changes" as it limits the use of changing slider length, and to avoid confusing long forced jumps

Difficulty Settings:

Cup - should be around 1-2 AR same with OD, HP should be at minimal level
Salad - 2-4 AR, HP at minimal to average
Platter - 3-5 AR, HP at average
Rain - 6-8 AR, HP at average to insane
Overdose - 8-10, HP at mostly insane

I didn't quite mention the CS on all of them because I believe there should be liberty on the choosing of CS for each map.



gay

Seph wrote:

Difficulty Settings:

Cup - should be around 1-2 AR same with OD, HP should be at minimal level
Salad - 2-4 AR, HP at minimal to average
Platter - 3-5 AR, HP at average
Rain - 6-8 AR, HP at average to insane
Overdose - 8-10, HP at mostly insane
I didn't quite mention the CS on all of them because I believe there should be liberty on the choosing of CS for each map.

1-4 AR is a pain in CtB difficulties, sorry.
I am satisfied of CtB maps how they are done nowadays. Important is that there has to be a good difficulty spread between all CtB difficulties, like:

Difficulty settings:

=> Approach Rate:
Cup: at least 5 (or 6)
Salad: at least 6 (or 7)
Platter: at least 8 (Is there any with 7? I personally would never include AR 7 in a Platter.
Rain: between 8 and 9
Overdose: 9 (10 should be used with caution, ALWAYS).

=> AR should be constant with OD, as described in the CtB Ranking Guidelines. It is working quite well like that in almost every difficulty. It is still a guideline and can vary a bit but I wouldn't change it too much.

=> Circle Size:
Cup: 2
Salad: 3
Platter: 4
Rain: 4 (5 with caution!)
Overdose: 4 (5 with caution!)
For me personally it should never be higher than 4 in CtB since fruits become very unreadable then.

=> HP:
Cup: 4
Salad: 5
Platter: 6
Rain: 7
Overdose: 7-8 (I wouldn't put it much higher!)

-----

Also, there should be a helpful guideline about slider velocity imo. I find it pretty terrible when people use a too high SV and the mapping style suffers on that, especially if someone abuses of horizontal sliders.

well AR solely depends on the mapper. also AR10 should be used in special cases, or rather, in high BPM maps which where they are more acceptable, I'd say around 190bpm and above.

also i dont map lower difficulties except overdose anyway lol

I think you can use some hyperdashes on Salad if it fits, they just shouldn't be hard to catch.
Note density doesn't matter that much, even a super easy difficulty can have 200bpm streams and will be easy to catch.
I'm not sure if we should discuss about a "recommended slider velocity" every song is different, this is not the same as taiko I think.

Other point could be the streams, how to make them hard, how to make them fit ... etc

Talking about difficulty settings, I do agree with Sey. Such low ARs are almost unreadable if you don't use HR, DT or both at the same time. What about letting a little range in the difficulty settings, instead of forcing CS2 for Cup (for example)?

Cup: AR/OD 5-6 ~ CS 2-3 ~ HP 3-4
Salad: AR/OD 6-7 ~ CS 2-3 ~ HP 4-5
Platter: AR/OD 7-8 ~ CS 3-4 ~ HP 5-6
Rain: AR/OD 8-9 ~ CS 3-4 ~ HP 6-7
Overdose/Deluge: AR/OD 9-10 ~ CS 4-5 ~ HP 7-8

If everybody agrees with that, it can be added to the 2nd post!

Seph wrote:

well AR solely depends on the mapper. also AR10 should be used in special cases, or rather, in high BPM maps which where they are more acceptable, I'd say around 190bpm and above.

It's comprehensible. AR10 or CS5 could be used carefully, and only when the map requires it, or is made to be played with those settings!

eldnl wrote:

I think you can use some hyperdashes on Salad if it fits, they just shouldn't be hard to catch.

I haven't seen any HDash in a Salad yet, but normal Dashes. That was written to set a limitation in the gameplay, and to let players first of all get used to the Dashes before facing HDashes.

eldnl wrote:

Note density doesn't matter that much, even a super easy difficulty can have 200bpm streams and will be easy to catch.

Theoretically, you can even put a 1/16 stream in a 200BPM Cup, as long as the notes are stucked. The problem would be making a proper note density between all difficulties, in terms of good score difference, rhythm difference and so on.

eldnl wrote:

I'm not sure if we should discuss about a "recommended slider velocity" every song is different, this is not the same as taiko I think.

This thread is just a reference for people who's starting to map CTB mapsets. Maybe we should include a quote in this part to say: "At least make a proper SV difference between difficulties to create slower/faster sliders or shorter/longer default distances. Don't use 3.2 for Cup and 1.4 for Overdose!". That's just a gross example, but I guess it's easy to get the idea ^^".

eldnl wrote:

Other point could be the streams, how to make them hard, how to make them fit ... etc

That'd be a more complex mapping topic. Maybe we can discuss about it when the base here is more solid

Deif wrote:

when the map requires it

hence why i said special cases.

Well as I said, I don't map easy difficulties, its not that I can't mod them or so, but I stated my belief in my first post about them having a range on their difficulty is needed.

eldnl wrote:

Note density doesn't matter that much, even a super easy difficulty can have 200bpm streams and will be easy to catch.

this is true on some cases, but it would rather be awkward to see a cup having 4m+ score or so, regardless of map length

Deif wrote:

complex mapping topic

MAKE THE DAMN THREAD I AM READY FOR IT

eldnl wrote:

streams, how to make them hard

this i would like to see, i am open to see new stream techniques for ctb, having neu streams and jump streams are getting kinda dull by time so seeing newer techniques would be good and ill use it for pretender hueheuhaw73uroija

Deif wrote:

This thread is just a reference for people who's starting to map CTB mapsets. Maybe we should include a quote in this part to say: "At least make a proper SV difference between difficulties to create slower/faster sliders or shorter/longer default distances. Don't use 3.2 for Cup and 1.4 for Overdose!". That's just a gross example, but I guess it's easy to get the idea ^^".

I guess that's quite obvious haha that should apply for standard as well so ...

Sey wrote:

Difficulty settings:

=> Approach Rate:
Cup: at least 5 (or 6)
Salad: at least 6 (or 7)
Platter: at least 8 (Is there any with 7? I personally would never include AR 7 in a Platter.
Rain: between 8 and 9
Overdose: 9 (10 should be used with caution, ALWAYS).

=> AR should be constant with OD, as described in the CtB Ranking Guidelines. It is working quite well like that in almost every difficulty. It is still a guideline and can vary a bit but I wouldn't change it too much.

=> Circle Size:
Cup: 2
Salad: 3
Platter: 4
Rain: 4 (5 with caution!)
Overdose: 4 (5 with caution!)
For me personally it should never be higher than 4 in CtB since fruits become very unreadable then.

=> HP:
Cup: 4
Salad: 5
Platter: 6
Rain: 7
Overdose: 7-8 (I wouldn't put it much higher!)

I think basically like this. Maybe AR7 also can be applied for Platter in a special cases where the song itself is not fast enough, if you include Rain too, w/o it AR8 is acceptable.

For me CS(circle size, the size of fruit and plate in CTB) should not be fixed. CS can be free to choose so long as they fit the pattern used in the whole map. That doesn't affect the difficulty much expect some extreme cases. I have once mapping a CS5 salad diff, and it seems fine. CS6 can also be used in extreme diffs with suitable jump pattern. In fact lower CS relatively gives you much more place to put many great pattern.

I agree to the setting of AR and HP. Also I suggest AR10 cannot be used only if the mapper have enough experience to handle it.

about difficulty, in my opinion,
CUP: should be able to FC without dash.
means nothing.... if it must say, mean to be kind to all players

Salad: should not contain 1/3 or lower(1/4, 1/6, etc) dashes, and i think Hdashes could be introduced if it really fit the map.
challenge to new comers, but easily HRed, DTed by normal players.

Platter: may contain 1/4 jumps, but try to use them wisely. also 1/4 Hdashes not recommended at all. So does the tricky streams.
challenge to normal players, but not hard to FC. easily HR+HD, DT+HD by skillful players.

Rain: only extremely pattern cannot be used.(continuous reverse jump, max normal jump, 1/4 varies spacing big jump, tricky jump, etc)
Challenge in FC to skilled plalyer, but easily being HDed by top players.

Overdose: no limitation so long as they fit the map.
GO IN HELL!!! request for an "S"(jk wwwww



About slider velocity, I guess we need to talk about it in anywhere else because it is not that easy to decide.

Yes, liberty of choosing CS. Lovu steven

Why you must name diffs like Salad, Rain etc?
I think that the naming of diffs should be choosed by mapper like in other game modes.

Hypers in salad : I think this is actually a very good idea. Obviously this comes with heavy restrictions, those hyperdashes should be introduced in salad diff only for learning purpose, so the new players can see and play hyperdashes before going to harder difficulties. One is enough for this purpose and I already can imagine how this new guy in CtB will be happy when he catch it and finally FC the map, best maps are the ones the players enjoy to play.

Deif wrote:

Cup: AR/OD 5-6 ~ CS 2-3 ~ HP 3-4
Salad: AR/OD 6-7 ~ CS 2-3 ~ HP 4-5
Platter: AR/OD 7-8 ~ CS 3-4 ~ HP 5-6
Rain: AR/OD 8-9 ~ CS 3-4 ~ HP 6-7
Overdose/Deluge: AR/OD 9-10 ~ CS 4-5 ~ HP 7-8

I think this a bit too restrictive for hardest diffs :
ARs : I think Overdose could be mapped from 8 to 9. And use Deluge from 9 to 10. This allows mappers to make challenges for HD and DT players.
CSs : Should be 3 to 5 (even 6) imo for Overdose and Deluge diffs. I think CS3 could be usefull for AR10 mapping, but in a global view about this I think this is just about allowing to the mappers more creativity.

Also those settings should allways be equal or increasing between each diff of the mapset.
^ And this shoud also be the case for SV, and I think this is the only guideline SV requires cause this value is heavily affected by the BPM of the song.

Also I remember discussing about sliders ticks long time ago but nothing happend and no guideline were made for this. But I still think that any ctb diff with at least 1 slider tick should have at least one droplet (A.k.a. avoid very high slider tick rate). But maybe this should go for another thread since it's not diff specific.

Streams in easiest diff : It's okay until the timeline makes sense with what is mapped previously and next the stream (having a 1/4 streams between a bunch of 1/1 beats will most of the time sounds terrible). OD should be adjusted well to get the good star rating in the website (bypassing the AR=OD guideline). But an easier diff should keep a lower combo and score than harder diffs (Never use OD to get a higher score in the cup diff than in the salad one).

About what each diff should contain : I 100% agree with ZHSteven.

Don Omar wrote:

Why you must name diffs like Salad, Rain etc?
I think that the naming of diffs should be choosed by mapper like in other game modes.

This is for historical purposes only from when the ctb diff became rankable (Actually I'll prefer using easy, normal, etc...)

Don Omar wrote:

Why you must name diffs like Salad, Rain etc?
I think that the naming of diffs should be choosed by mapper like in other game modes.

in fact i am not a fan of using these words, but just like taikos and manias, someone says CTB should have their own naming system. that's why =.=

oh about the SV, i think better make it "dash" related-----means a horizontal slider should make auto JUST nearly dashes from the start to the end. But I guess this is another problem beyond this thread.

Drafura wrote:

I think this a bit too restrictive for hardest diffs :
ARs : I think Overdose could be mapped from 8 to 9. And use Deluge from 9 to 10. This allows mappers to make challenges for HD and DT players.

I'm not sure about this. Maybe I misunderstood, but are you wan to suggest that we should map Rains which are as I know same as Insanes, with AR7 and below? Or you just saying that Overdoses just, as Rains, only allowed to use max AR9 and Deluge can be 10?

Kurokami wrote:

Drafura wrote:

I think this a bit too restrictive for hardest diffs :
ARs : I think Overdose could be mapped from 8 to 9. And use Deluge from 9 to 10. This allows mappers to make challenges for HD and DT players.

I'm not sure about this. Maybe I misunderstood, but are you wan to suggest that we should map Rains which are as I know same as Insanes, with AR7 and below? Or you just saying that Overdoses just, as Rains, only allowed to use max AR9 and Deluge can be 10?

That means, in my opinion, normal Rain and Overdose can mapping with AR 8 and 9, or Rain can be 7 if it is suitable for special cases. if you want 10, you should use Deluge.

Kurokami wrote:

I'm not sure about this. Maybe I misunderstood, but are you wan to suggest that we should map Rains which are as I know same as Insanes, with AR7 and below? Or you just saying that Overdoses just, as Rains, only allowed to use max AR9 and Deluge can be 10?

No, I'm just saying an AR8 overdose could be possible to map if wanted. Having high ARs in easiest diffs is not something the community seems to welcome so I'll not come back on this.

edit : ninja'd by ZHSteven.

Oh, okay then. It just sounded kinda complicated to me. But yes, its true even I hate high AR on easier ones altough I mostly use AR9 on my Rains. Well, the song itself is always fast enough to handle it.

I want to add that if we put too many restriction the risk is to have all maps looks the same. I want to see more mapping style and more creativity. Those rules should only be here to fix hard limits, not restrict creativity. This is the main reason I think hardest diffs should be less restrictive.

Everything we wrote here is consider a guide, to make people who dont have any CTB mapping experience quickly get to konw how to map.
In fact I don't see any limits expect AR and HP which is better to be fixed -.-

I think we don't really need AR limit too just a guide for it. And if the mapper choosing the wrong one it will just takes ~4 words to tell him/her which will be the best. But hp is better to be limited.

Yeah you don't really need to care about AR when make CtB maps.

When I was so noob as played 'Hard' diff, AR8 wasn't very fast and it fit well.



And, I think hyperdashes are 'Undeniable Objects' of CtB, not advanced techniques or sucky pattern for noobs.

Why don't they must not use their left hands?

Edit : Okay. I think 1/1 hyperdashes at Salad is reasonable enough.

ok then AR can be subjective to set.
But for me the most important thing is, AR10 should not be used only if the mapper have enough experience to handle it.

AR10 haters everywhere :<

eldnl wrote:

AR10 haters everywhere :<

Maybe because we don't know how to use it
^ yeah like me

I think AR10 is fun but still, even if its fun it shouldn't be applied on a song with under 200 bpm. Well, maybe between 180-200 the song itself is the main problem. But I don't think it will fit under 180. They are mostly not fast songs. So yes, we need some "rule" about AR10.

I mean, a lot of pattern we used in AR9 or below cannot be used in AR10 because of the extreme speed. that is why I want to make sure people mapping AR10 MUST have played AR10 before, and know which pattern for AR10 is fun, which is not.

Yeah, thats reasonable enough.

Sadly this can't be a guideline. We can't say "no you'll not map AR10 cause you're too noob at it lol!!!1!".
I think for AR10 there's two way to go :
1) Restrict to a specific mapping with something like : "All jumps should be visible on the screen at the moment the player have to start the movement. (sightreadable)"
2) No guidelines : Let mappers do as they want and try to balance the diffs with the modding process.

The second choice is more creative but will obviously make the ranking process way more long (And actually even with the first choice it will be long).

If someone have any other ideas on how to proceed, it would be welcome. Just make sure the idea is about the map not the mapper.

ZHSteven wrote:

because of the extreme speed.

sadly this. sure its fun, but its hella fast most of the time.

ZHSteven wrote:

that is why I want to make sure people mapping AR10 MUST have played AR10 before, and know which pattern for AR10 is fun, which is not.

i dont think having played an AR10 diff should never be a prerequisite for someone to map a map with that AR. you're just giving more restrictions to mapping style.

It is obvious that a lot of good AR9 patterns cannot be used in AR10. and to make it more clear, no continuous jump(with Dashes), no tricky patterns(reverse jump, stand Hdash, square, reverse triangles) etc. So yes, you are right. AR10 mapping will be more restrict than normal AR maps.

But there is still some good pattern can be or can only be used in AR10, if you play a lot of AR10 maps, you will see. So that is why I insist "enough experience".

Drafura wrote:

Sadly this can't be a guideline. We can't say "no you'll not map AR10 cause you're too noob at it lol!!!1!".
I think for AR10 there's two way to go :
1) Restrict to a specific mapping with something like : "All jumps should be visible on the screen at the moment the player have to start the movement. (sightreadable)"
2) No guidelines : Let mappers do as they want and try to balance the diffs with the modding process.

The second choice is more creative but will obviously make the ranking process way more long (And actually even with the first choice it will be long).

If someone have any other ideas on how to proceed, it would be welcome. Just make sure the idea is about the map not the mapper.

Edit: Since it is really hard to define "experience" in an accurate way, I have no choice but to choose 2. I totally against to write details in so called"rules".
But new mappers please please do not touch AR10. that will make things even worse.

I disagree with you, Steven, not because you can't play it properly we shouldn't use it like everything else, with time and practice, people with get used to it someday, and if you can't, play the previous difficulty!

eldnl wrote:

I disagree with you, Steven, not because you can't play it properly we shouldn't use it like everything else, with time and practice, people with get used to it someday, and if you can't, play the previous difficulty!

I mean, if people cant see the difference between AR9 and AR10, there is a great chance that they use AR9 mapping style to map AR10 which is totally wrong. You are a experienced AR10 mapper and player I believe you know this.
Actually in my mind, even in AR8 and AR9 map there IS a difference in mapping but not that obvious.
And as you say, with time and practice, the mapper finally get to use AR10 well. Then I dont see any reason they cant map a good AR10 map at that time, and I will be happy to mod it.

With you I don't mean YOU but you.

eldnl wrote:

With you I don't mean YOU but you.

lol I see~~just a joke~

It is not a joke, but I don't know how to explain it.

eldnl wrote:

It is not a joke, but I don't know how to explain it.

I mean what I say is just a joke, I know you know what I know(oh dam what does it mean)

OK lets put an end to this.
People will choose to map AR10 freely but kindly suggest do not make AR10 map only if the mapper can be sure to handle.

Drafura wrote:

2) No guidelines : Let mappers do as they want and try to balance the diffs with the modding process.

Well I still think AR10 need a separate explanation in the current system. Something like when you are free to choose (if you want to rank it) and what you need (or not need) to do for the better playability.

Why would it need one? There's nothing special with AR10 except its the maximum speed of AR. It doesn't do anything special except speed up the fruits, make more hyperdashes appear and etc.

Yeah, and kinda hard to use it on a song with 50 bpm. And it fucking hard to play if you use too many hdashes. Triangle pattern is (for example) with ar10 is almost equal with impossible.

Only highly professional mappers with a great deal of experience should make use of AR10. You have to know what makes an AR10 song still enjoyable to play, and not everybody has enough qualification to deal with such an enormous speed.
Also, BPM needs to be seen as basis for those decisions. 120BPM plus AR10 for example cannot be matched up. If it's a song with fast rhythm and almost explosive beats it might work, but only if you have enough experience.

Thats why I think we need a bit separate way to write down how ar10 should be used. Well its not necessary at least to me since I will never use it.

Not sure if it's possible to write down direct criterias about how to work with AR10 properly, that depends also on mappers preferences and mapping style in general. In the guideline we can mention that AR10 should be used in rare cases and only if it fits to the song itself / BPM. I cannot think of concrete examples which patterns are recommended for AR10 because everybody has different opinions of good and bad patterns for AR10 for sure. Important is that the map has to be fc'able and patterns need to make sense with rhythm and somehow has to be still enjoyable (which is pretty hard with AR10).

I would generalize this a bit. Guidelines could look like this:

1. Only highly professional mappers with a great deal of experience should make use of AR10. You have to know what makes an AR10 song still enjoyable to play, and not everybody has enough qualification to deal with such an enormous speed.
2. BPM needs to be seen as basis for those decisions. 120BPM plus AR10 for example cannot be matched up. If it's a song with fast rhythm and almost explosive beats it might work, but only if you have enough experience.
3. You must be sure that your patterns are fc'able with AR10. If not better don't use it till you gained more mapping experience. You can also ask other CTB players to testplay your map but keep in mind that only a few are capable of playing AR10.

Any better ideas or concrete examples?

Seph wrote:

It doesn't do anything special except speed up the fruits, make more hyperdashes appear and etc.

You're confusing HR and AR10. AR10 doesn't make more hyperdashes, HR or smaller fruits do it.

My thoughts about AR10 mapping :
Hyperdashes are the best friends of AR10 mapping, cause they're allways readable. Of course overusing them doesn't make the map playable. I'm not against memorisation in AR10 but I think it should be kept for key parts of the song (3-4 jumps to learn is enough most of the time imo). About jumpy patterns if they fits perfectly with the song they can be considered as intuitive. About the bpm I agree with Sey so I scrolled over 146 AR10 maps and the critical point (imo) seems to be 170 Bpm, at this point the map doesn't fit most of the time the low density makes the map much less sightreadable, and you'll have to memorize a huge amount of jumps. So I can propose around 180 bpm as a prerequist of AR10 mapping in CtB, what's your opinion ? (Keep in mind that this is all about timeline, wich means a high use of 1/4 on a low bpm song could be good enough for AR10 if the (base bpm)*2 <= 180 and vice versa)

AR10 does make more hyperdashes appear compared to other ARs combined with smaller fruits

in case you dont believe me, get a map with jumps, with AR8, 9 and 10 and compare hyperfruit spawn

Seph wrote:

AR10 does make more hyperdashes appear compared to other ARs combined with smaller fruits

in case you dont believe me, get a map with jumps, with AR8, 9 and 10 and compare hyperfruit spawn

I am pretty sure that you mean HR AR8,9 map or AR10 transition map not AR10 specific map.

You can check with eldnl, I believe he got tons of good AR10 specific maps.

Edit:

Drafura wrote:

Hyperdashes are the best friends of AR10 mapping, cause they're allways readable. Of course overusing them doesn't make the map playable. I'm not against memorisation in AR10 but I think it should be kept for key parts of the song (3-4 jumps to learn is enough most of the time imo). About jumpy patterns if they fits perfectly with the song they can be considered as intuitive.

Totally agree this.

Drafura wrote:

About the bpm I agree with Sey so I scrolled over 146 AR10 maps and the critical point (imo) seems to be 170 Bpm, at this point the map doesn't fit most of the time the low density makes the map much less sightreadable, and you'll have to memorize a huge amount of jumps. So I can propose around 180 bpm as a prerequist of AR10 mapping in CtB, what's your opinion ? (Keep in mind that this is all about timeline, wich means a high use of 1/4 on a low bpm song could be good enough for AR10 if the (base bpm)*2 <= 180 and vice versa)

[/quote]

But I dont think BPM is an so important parameter for this. high bpm with low AR make the map not readable, but I think low bpm with high AR doesn't affect much. Maybe low BPM with AR10 would make people confuse but I dont see a reason we should restrict BPM just because of this.

More hdash-es = more harder to play. This makes the usage of ar10 more restricted. I think what Sey wrote it will solve this case easily.

EDIT: I think the bpm is the critical since that makes the map fast or slow. Yes you can play low bpm with ar10 but that is just not enjoyable. Well, maybe its not enough to restrict this but still if a map aiming to be ranked the ar should choosen wisely.

it was comparison to maps, thats why i said try doing it on a map and change its AR, and also smaller fruits affects the spawn.