568,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
11695,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
49485,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
76160,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
87264,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
Did Skylish make the cut himself or was a TV-size cut made by someone else? Because the cut may have exasterbated the timing issues in the full length song.Ephemeral wrote:
In Skylish's defense, the original full-length Ishukan track is absolutely fucked as far as timing goes as well, so there's no error on his part from attempting to approximate it. We just need to use the "splice" method to reset the bpm before major verses or places where it begins to drift in this case, as the drift seems to be very inconsistent even across the source material. Some weird production stuff going on there.
but ravioli ravioli, please dont lewd the dragon loliGreenshell wrote:
Drama in a taiko thread \:D/
since this got unranked, is there any reason to have "ravioli" in tags other than for the meme?
and yeah about the timing you should gather more opinions if you're still willing to push this forward
8bit <3 3Bonsai wrote:
timing is a happy thing
now to cut myself. φ(^ω^*)ﾉ✂
On a sidenote, none of this would be a problem if you mapped this way better version of the song too
yeah it was unexpected to seeyea wrote:
the map played perfectly fine in my eyes, I am surprised this got "deranked" out of all maps
the pp system is mostly broken because the star rating system is broke. the only reason this is a pp map in its current state is because it's 5.63* and 7.88* with DT. there wouldn't even be a discussion on this if star rating made sense for this type of snapping.ARGENTINE DREAM wrote:
Star Rating system is not accurate and needs to be fixed? Yes. Still that is not enough reason to let the pp system to be broke.
there are plenty of ranked maps that play at a much lower star rating, but have one or two difficult spots that raise the star rating extremely high. this is true in both standard and taiko. i'll point out a few recent examples:ARGENTINE DREAM wrote:
Others pointed out that are other overweighted maps... Do they make a difference of 1.5 stars? I don't think so, that's the main concern about this map
You mean: "the main reason of the pp system being broken is the SR calculation". Yes, that doesn't mean the PP system itself is broken by the most part because a vast majority of maps work well according to both SR and PP.Catgirl wrote:
the pp system is mostly broken because the star rating system is broke
There would... Didn't you read the rest of the thread? The concerns about the snapping started in the modding stage. Even if SR worked well with this kind of snapping, the music theory backing up the fact this shouldn't be mapped this way would still exist and there's people that's gonna point it out.Catgirl wrote:
there wouldn't even be a discussion on this if star rating made sense for this type of snapping.
Here the SR reflects the difficulty of the song, you know, that section in the middle is actually part of the song. If the HP is set correctly, you could probably fail the song just by missing notes at that section. Players whose limit is 4.3 stars wouldn't get a decent score.Catgirl wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1330403 - this is a nearly 6 minute map, if you remove three streams in the middle of the map then you have a 5 minute map that is 4.32*. the entire map is 6.2*, but if you can play a few difficult streams, even with a couple misses, you're getting extreme amounts of pp for a 4.32* map.
I've heard about flams giving extra pp, but still, flams are resources that are pretty much used in drumming (and in the original TnT), also there's the difficulty on being consistent over them... Probably still too much SR boost.Catgirl wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/690886 - another 6+ minute map, if you remove a total of 15 notes in the 1/8 doubles section, making them single notes instead, the star rating drops from 7.08* to 5.97*. and 1/8 doubles at that speed aren't hard to play, even though they're kinda easy to shitmiss on. it's basically a free star rating increase and thus a free pp increase.
Do you really think that "only difference" is just a little difference? Comparing these maps to Ishukan Communication is just biased.Catgirl wrote:
the only difference between this map and the two i mentioned above are that those maps have the star rating increased by sections that are difficult, and this map just has star rating increased due to the awkward snapping
Because the calculation works over musical notation, not over "space length/ms distance" and other kind of stuff which is more mathematical than musical.Catgirl wrote:
the map isn't technically any harder on 3/16 than 1/6. it should be easier on 3/16 because the doubles are slower and farther apart on 3/16 than on 1/6
ftfySurono wrote:
yea wrote:
yeahyea it was unexpected to see
That's what the pp system is, the most accurate way the developers found to make a fair calculation of players skills. Therefore, when the word "RANKED" comes in play, the way it helps this system to calculate players skills is the most important thing to have on account, even if failing at this purpose is or not the mapper's fault.I only half-agree with this and I'll go point by point, though the first third of this is actually true: pp was meant to make a fair ranking. However, the problem isn't its result, but the combination of Star Rating, OD, length (in NOTECOUNT and not duration), mods and everything else playing towards the final result.
Star Rating system is not accurate and needs to be fixed? Yes. Still that is not enough reason to let the pp system to be broke.
Others pointed out that are other overweighted maps... Do they make a difference of 1.5 stars? I don't think so, that's the main concern about this map
Mappers should take that on account, they are making a notechart for an already established game system. That means the mapper can do as much as experimental maps as they like, but they most probably are not going to be suitable for the game.
Star Rating system is not accurate and needs to be fixed? Yes. Still that is not enough reason to let the pp system to be broke.Everyone's been yelling about this for more time than you'd think! There are many examples of maps that have been overrated while other have been underrated - snapping plays a huge part in this, and star rating is the main reason why pp is so broken: it is absolutely overrating doubles, 24+16th complex streams, patterns that comes in packs of 3 like ddk ddk ddk...., but fast stamina maps have their SR ridiculously low for how hard they are. Case in point: compare The Limit Does Not Exist [Limit Break] (7.50 stars, 260 BPM with huge deathstreams) and Last Fortune (pocotan remix) [Inner Oni] (7.56 stars, 176 BPM with 24+16ths). Nearly everything goes in favour of the latter map: more notes, more stars; but lower OD gives a lower acuracy bonus. It did not stop players from getting HDDTFCs on it, while TLDNE probably still does not have >20 nomod FCs.
Mappers should take that on accountThey should not take something that broken into account. Those who think SR has to be taken into account are lying to themselves. There are people who are abusing it, it's their problem; but the honest ones who just want to make a good map and can't get that ranked because the automated difficulty calculator is extremely broken are the ones that lose. There are instances of maps where the Oni is deemed easier than its lower difficulties, because its lower difficulties uses different patterns that are processed as "harder". Anything containing doubles will be shot up by it. Same goes for an innocent ddk ddk ddk.
Others pointed out that are other overweighted maps... Do they make a difference of 1.5 stars? I don't think soI think so. I'll be talking about Last Fortune again, as the map without any single 1/6 only is 5.15. a 2.41 star difference. The 24+16ths aren't even that hard as it isn't awkwardly handswapping.
a vast majority of maps work well according to both SR and PP.A vast majority of maps being pretty much anything that doesn't go out of the ordinary. Of course this will work, because all other existing cases are ridiculous. 360 BPM with 1/4? Boom, 7.65 stars. 178 BPM with a lot of 24+16ths streams? Boom, 9.29 stars. See the problem...?
fkfyNifty wrote:
ftfySuroyea wrote:
yeahyea it was unexpected to see
Unmei Muma wrote:
About the map:
its fuckin 3/16
I actually believe some of the points you stated are somewhat irrelevant and the rest could be easily argued against. I would have replied but since this isn't my map I decided against itEphemeral wrote:
I practically wrote an essay on why low interval snaps and non-whole bpms are a terrible idea
You'll need to explain what you mean, or I can't actively consider your opinion as meaning much in this particular case.Kisses wrote:
I actually believe some of the points you stated are somewhat irrelevant and the rest could be easily argued against. I would have replied but since this isn't my map I decided against itEphemeral wrote:
I practically wrote an essay on why low interval snaps and non-whole bpms are a terrible idea
[]
I would like to add that I very much agree with the snapping Skylish has used. I thought the old base SVs were better but the new one works too ~
We were always talking about mappiong and ranking criteria. The thread you linked there is pretty useful and everyone should check it out.Unmei Muma wrote:
Now let's actually talk about the map eh? If you want to discuss pp please do it here: t/181852 - hopefully this will wake up more people...
If they wanted to be as precise as they claim shouldn't they snap it on 5/32?, that's way more accurate. That's one of the reasons the "righteous of using 3/16" doesn't even make 100% sense.Unmei Muma wrote:
About the map:
its fuckin 3/16
Skylish wrote:
After a long discussion after unranked, here's a list of amendments and updates:
> Need 3 more modders who agree with the timing setting Agreed
> Base SV is re-arranged to 1.4, with 1.2 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 / 1.5 additional SVs used in Kantan, Futsuu, Muzukashii, Oni, and Inner Oni, based on Nardo's suggestion before. yep like my previously post about it too, increasing SVs is worth for this snapping of mapset instead slider velocity.
Unmei Muma wrote:
About the map:
its fuckin 3/16
The reason why people don't use 1/16 is because it would be incorrect timing not because of the effects the pp system gives. I can't really see it being right to use different timings solely because of the weight of performance points given. I actually don't even see it as that broken, it's a slightly over-weighted map, it alone wont break the whole system. If it were a case of using incorrect snaps to intentionally abuse the system then fair enough but you can clearly tell when listening to it, both in editor and whilst playing it that the snaps correctly match the vocals. If you were care solely about the effects a map has on the pp system Im surprised you didn't go after maps such as rog unlimitation lulEphemeral wrote:
That is but one reason why we do not use 1/16 anything.
BN's saying it's ok to break the pp system for a minimum almost nonexistent difference that doesn't even change the gameplay experience make the less sense.- Magic Bomb - wrote:
people using SR as an argument for why the changes need to be made doesn't make sense, the pp system should never dictate how anyone maps
Is that even possible?Kisses wrote:
(a friend gave me the 2 maps randomized and spoofed the SR so I couldn't tell which was which)
I agree with MBomb. You guys should check quality of the beatmaps instead of SR.- Magic Bomb - wrote:
people using SR as an argument for why the changes need to be made doesn't make sense, the pp system should never dictate how anyone maps
Skylish already mentioned what you mentionedmaziari1105 wrote:
Hi. I like this map, hope re-rank.
For your reference.
In "Aozora no Rhapsody" the theme song of 小林さんちのメイドラゴン, similer snap is actually used in the Inner Oni of Taiko no Tatsujin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5fT530of4A
I hope this map to be ranked in keep current style.
When it's brought close to general-snap placement, play becomes easy, but it's nothing other than to destroy the characteristics of the song.
I think that it's most important what can't do without this song.
I fucking love you Vulkin LOLVulkin wrote:
Skylish already mentioned what you mentionedmaziari1105 wrote:
Hi. I like this map, hope re-rank.
For your reference.
In "Aozora no Rhapsody" the theme song of 小林さんちのメイドラゴン, similer snap is actually used in the Inner Oni of Taiko no Tatsujin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5fT530of4A
I hope this map to be ranked in keep current style.
When it's brought close to general-snap placement, play becomes easy, but it's nothing other than to destroy the characteristics of the song.
I think that it's most important what can't do without this song.
However it was already decided
This thread has gotten too tensioned
and death was where the map had headed
Foolish was the Star Rating
playing with its baiting
Ruining such a good idea
Without fruition, leaving us waiting
Seriously though, Just a Re-Write on the Star Rating and it could have worked, but I guess its forbidden to rank a weird snap
It got mentioned in Despacito about the weird snap too, so if its something that goes over all maps, then people should just put a bloody rule about it, because i dont see it, but whatever.
The map is dead now sadly
