It sais on the ranking criteria that "slider ends are allowed to be silenced if it makes sense" but I've seen plenty of QATs these days DQing over 5% HS Volume slider ends.
t/110991/start=90
t/110991/start=90
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Are 5% HS Volume Slider Ends Allowed?
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Topic Starter
It must be audible. Means there needs to be a significant sound, if you can't hear it properly then it's wrong.
I think it's totally fine according to the ranking criteria unless mapper adds any hitsounds (ex. Whistle, finish and clap) on slider's end, not sure how QATs think about it though
maybe give us a link to the DQ'sKibbleru wrote:
It sais on the ranking criteria that "slider ends are allowed to be silenced if it makes sense" but I've seen plenty of QATs these days DQing over 5% HS Volume slider ends.
Are you sure they have been disqualifying over that? I think the DQs happened because the QATs thought the extended sliders with silenced tails don't make sense at these points, but I may be mistaken.Kibbleru wrote:
It sais on the ranking criteria that "slider ends are allowed to be silenced if it makes sense" but I've seen plenty of QATs these days DQing over 5% HS Volume slider ends.
I don't see how a silenced slider end could make any sense. If something is silenced then it means that there is nothing to highlght in the song (a beat or anything). In this case, why would you make a slider end here? and if there is something to highlight, why would you make the hitsound audible?
According to the RC it is allowed but this tolerance make no sense imo >.>
According to the RC it is allowed but this tolerance make no sense imo >.>
why people use 5% volume on sliderends ? 25% and 5% are same imo.
I don't know what people have with that "new trend", there are more 3/4 sliders with silenced sliderends. It is horrible imo.
I don't know what people have with that "new trend", there are more 3/4 sliders with silenced sliderends. It is horrible imo.
if they use soft hitsounds I don't even think going as low as 5% is necessary, unless that part in the song has totally no music such that any other sound can be heard, which should not be the case
depending on the MP3's and Hitsound's sound volume, yes and no. 5% is like the absolute maximum you can use but it's still not recommend. Common sense should be used for these cases, and not following a rule/guideline totally strict.Cherry Blossom wrote:
why people use 5% volume on sliderends ? 25% and 5% are same imo.
I'll try to shed some light on this.
Are silenced slider tails allowed? Yes and no: it all depends on the usage. If you make the volume drop down to 5%, or 10%, or something else that's quite low, it means you want to hide the fact that a slider tail has sound: it's either missing in the audio, or it doesn't suit the song. I've seen many maps with silenced slider tails, and nearly all of them had it paired with overstretched sliders.
Last, but not least: there should always be a feedback from a hit object. You are not allowed to completely silenceslider tail and slider track at the same time, as well as slider track and slider ticks and other possible combinations, but you may just lower their volume instead, to the point where it is fitting and not noisy. If you have maps where some sliders are silenced almost completely (hello, No Dap) and they are ranked, this means they weren't checked strictly.
Oh, the maps Kibbleru refers to were probably disqualified due to poor use of overextended sliders, and 5% was only a nice addition to that.
So yeah, 5% is allowed, but please use it appropriately. We'll also probably start reviewing RC soon, as Loctav said in the beginning of Feb.
Are silenced slider tails allowed? Yes and no: it all depends on the usage. If you make the volume drop down to 5%, or 10%, or something else that's quite low, it means you want to hide the fact that a slider tail has sound: it's either missing in the audio, or it doesn't suit the song. I've seen many maps with silenced slider tails, and nearly all of them had it paired with overstretched sliders.
- Are overstretched sliders any good? Again, it depends on the usage. If you want to emphasize the fact that sound the slider is mapped to is continuous, and you don't want to make it end on the downbeat at the same time, it may be appropriate. However, some of the maps I had to work with or play in my spare time have whole sections consisting of nothing but sliders that are 3/4 long and placed in a row. You can't emphasize -everything-, overuse makes it play weird, and instead of playing intuitively and going in tact with 1/1, 1/2 or 1/4th snaps, you have to hold the key longer than necessary, and again, and again. It gets worse if a mapper likes to switch slider velocity back and forth, but that's a different story.
- Are they worth disqualifying? Honestly, we don't and never will have accurate metrics for this, because each case is different. In general, it looks like this plot, where X is how often overstretched sliders are used, and Y is a chance of the disqualification; the hotter the color, the worse usage is. Different people have this plot compressed or stretched in a different way, that's how things are.
Last, but not least: there should always be a feedback from a hit object. You are not allowed to completely silence
Oh, the maps Kibbleru refers to were probably disqualified due to poor use of overextended sliders, and 5% was only a nice addition to that.
So yeah, 5% is allowed, but please use it appropriately. We'll also probably start reviewing RC soon, as Loctav said in the beginning of Feb.
im luckyTicClick wrote:
If you have maps where some sliders are silenced almost completely (hello, No Dap) and they are ranked, this means they weren't checked strictly.
the way I always viewed this is:
slider ends don't matter. in the context of osu! being a rhythm game, where rhythm games are often defined as clicking beats in time with music, the fact that you don't click slider ends makes it technically pointless to have them defined to a ending a certain way. however, because this game has immediate feedback from hitsounds, it has become common and sensible practice to have them end also in time with beats in the music. when you take away this feedback by muting the end, it no longer makes it necessary for them to end with the music, since there will no longer be this feedback.
then, it becomes a matter of stylistic choice and potential abuse, and you can start getting into the overmapping debate as well. basic guideline that I always go by, is if it feels like it is still in sync with the music, then it is fine to be left as is. as long as they are used consistently and intelligently with clear reason, I will never have a problem with this.
slider ends don't matter. in the context of osu! being a rhythm game, where rhythm games are often defined as clicking beats in time with music, the fact that you don't click slider ends makes it technically pointless to have them defined to a ending a certain way. however, because this game has immediate feedback from hitsounds, it has become common and sensible practice to have them end also in time with beats in the music. when you take away this feedback by muting the end, it no longer makes it necessary for them to end with the music, since there will no longer be this feedback.
then, it becomes a matter of stylistic choice and potential abuse, and you can start getting into the overmapping debate as well. basic guideline that I always go by, is if it feels like it is still in sync with the music, then it is fine to be left as is. as long as they are used consistently and intelligently with clear reason, I will never have a problem with this.
They matter because they define how long you have to hold a key for. You can't drop a slider (even a tickless one) halfway without getting penalized if you don't return to it before it ends.
Okay, no more derailing.
Okay, no more derailing.
Topic Starter
you're not allowed to silence sliderslide with slider end? where does it say that?
The only thing said is that you're not allowed to silence both sliderslide and slidertick, not both sliderslide and sliderend.Kibbleru wrote:
you're not allowed to silence sliderslide with slider end? where does it say that?
Wow that's confusing, is there any missing rule in RC ?
RC wrote:
Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible.
EDIT: uhhhhh I think I misread it, sorry for confusion.
They're technically allowed, but I guess QATs don't find them used appropriately.
Kodora
I remember there were many similar discussion about this before, and one which was concluded said it is only allowed in special cases where it was really suitable with an appropriate audible sliderslide. Maybe not that exactly but i think it is reasonable since where 5% slider end might be applied are prolonged note with no drum at the end, which audible sliderslide fits.
Anyway both sliderslide & sliderend are usually covered by music itself and i should say 6% or 7% or 8% cases are ... you know the boundary is not really clear
Anyway both sliderslide & sliderend are usually covered by music itself and i should say 6% or 7% or 8% cases are ... you know the boundary is not really clear
I thought it was okay to use 5~30% volumes as long as the hitsound is audible with the music. In case the hitsound is not audible, you could simply remove the hitsound without changing the volume and it will still be rankable. The same thing goes with slider ends.
Kodora
I also have to copy this link here for clarification - 5% volume is still audible sometimes (for example at very quiet or completely silent parts of song) so it shouldn't be considered as absolute silence in all cases
Common sense should be used, like always.
Please, stop posting.Stefan wrote:
Common sense should be used, like always.
I personally think it is totally fine, sometimes even the better solution.
Nowadays, many people want to express the song even better, but this doesn't work as good as when you silence a slider end. Let me give an example:
Let's assume that there are two dominant vocals / instrument sounds.
Now there are several possibilities to cover these:
In this case, there might not be something significant on the red tick, so it's kinda weird to let the slider end there. But it works.
This version covers both as well, but you loose the emphasis on the second strong vocal / instrument. Of course it's allowed, but the effect of clicking a strong beat gets lost.
And now there's this. You silence the end, because the first vocal or instrument "flows" into the second one. So in my opinion this, if used well, follows the song the closest because you are able to click both strong sounds.
I've recently used this technique as well, if you don't get what I said above: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/544039 My diff, 00:05:753 (1,2,3,4,1,2) - .
I wanted to emphasize the dominant sound only, that's why I went silencing the ends. And here's one example with the vocals: 01:10:103 (1,2,3,4) -
Hoping that's understandable.
Nowadays, many people want to express the song even better, but this doesn't work as good as when you silence a slider end. Let me give an example:
Let's assume that there are two dominant vocals / instrument sounds.
Now there are several possibilities to cover these:
In this case, there might not be something significant on the red tick, so it's kinda weird to let the slider end there. But it works.
This version covers both as well, but you loose the emphasis on the second strong vocal / instrument. Of course it's allowed, but the effect of clicking a strong beat gets lost.
And now there's this. You silence the end, because the first vocal or instrument "flows" into the second one. So in my opinion this, if used well, follows the song the closest because you are able to click both strong sounds.
I've recently used this technique as well, if you don't get what I said above: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/544039 My diff, 00:05:753 (1,2,3,4,1,2) - .
I wanted to emphasize the dominant sound only, that's why I went silencing the ends. And here's one example with the vocals: 01:10:103 (1,2,3,4) -
Hoping that's understandable.
Topic Starter
i do agree with irre that it should be acceptable in cases like these. but its still in the grey area of rankability :X
so i'd like to clarify the line it as much as possible
so i'd like to clarify the line it as much as possible
I'd want like say something, but I don't want to open a can of worms. Remember we're talking about the 5% volume slider ends, not extended sliders.
Let's just put it this way:
Let's just put it this way:
- If you're using a silent sliderslide and then you "silence" the slider end, you should be thinking why are you putting silencing the slider end. It's the same sound feedback as having a single circle, the "hold feeling" some people use to justify this doesn't make sense, as you'd be "holding on silence" (lol) . This case is not okay as it doesn't make sense from the hitsounding point of view.
If you're using a non silent sliderslide, then it could be okay, since you're giving a sound feedback through the sliderslide, letting it end on the slider end. This is the only case it should be fine; yes, it could be fine, as it's more like case by case depending of the song. Of course, this shouldn't be overused.
Topic Starter
well seems like this discussion is done