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Rule: Silent hitsounds

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Topic Starter
mm201
Hitsounds from hitcircles and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense. If you don't like the default sounds, then find replacements rather than silencing notes. You can use hitsounds from the Custom Hitsound Library or easily find others online. Lowering the volume of a few notes to provide a dampened effect is usually fine, but complete silence is always unacceptable. The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent, but only do it if it makes sense. Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together.
The rationale behind this rule is that it provides, using audio cues only, information to the player as to whether or not they hit a pattern successfully. Since this is a rhythm game, a significant amount of the player's brain power goes towards interpreting audio cues, so representing their success at a pattern using visual cues only doesn't make much sense.

If the audio behaves in the same way whether the player hit an object successfully or not, something is wrong.

In the case of sliders, slide sounds on their own, and tick sounds on their own, are each capable of conveying the necessary information to the player. If both are missing, the problem I described appears.

Discuss.
Sakura
My normal opinion on it would be:

If you have to silence both sliderslide and slidertick then why even have a slider? might as well have 2 hitcircles and you get the same sounds.

But i would like to know what others think first.
xsrsbsns

Sakura Hana wrote:

If you have to silence both sliderslide and slidertick then why even have a slider? might as well have 2 hitcircles and you get the same sounds.
because you play the slider as well, not just listen to its hitsounds.
and holding a slider is different from clicking two circles.
Soaprman
I think the 5% minimum the editor currently enforces is fine. Quiet enough to get the point across but just audible enough that you know you hit something. Obviously the sounds should be louder than that when the music isn't really quiet though!
yongtw123

xsrsbsns wrote:

because you play the slider as well, not just listen to its hitsounds.
and holding a slider is different from clicking two circles.
I second that.
pieguyn

yongtw123 wrote:

xsrsbsns wrote:

because you play the slider as well, not just listen to its hitsounds.
and holding a slider is different from clicking two circles.
I second that.
agreed.

IMO a completely silent 0% is fine too, but as long as we can lower the volume of both slider-slide and sliderticks, 5% is fine :)

Also
Since this is a rhythm game, a significant amount of the player's brain power goes towards interpreting audio cues, so representing their success at a pattern using visual cues only doesn't make much sense.
Having an audio cue when the song is silent doesn't make any sense, when something doesn't fit with the song there's something seriously wrong = =
Topic Starter
mm201

pieguy1372 wrote:

but as long as we can lower the volume of both slider-slide and sliderticks, 5% is fine :)
This is already rankable.

pieguy1372 wrote:

Having an audio cue when the song is silent doesn't make any sense, when something doesn't fit with the song there's something seriously wrong = =
Implying a hitobject when the song is silent? That makes even less sense.
Raging Bull

mm201 wrote:

pieguy1372 wrote:

but as long as we can lower the volume of both slider-slide and sliderticks, 5% is fine :)
This is already rankable.
I thought silencing BOTH ticks and sliderslide isn't rankable?
Sakura

Raging Bull wrote:

I thought silencing BOTH ticks and sliderslide isn't rankable?
Volume affects everything, what's unrankable is using muted sliderslide and sliderticks at the same time.
RandomJibberish
Personally I disagree with silencing anything at all, but I'm cool with the sliderslide/sliderticks rule when the tick rate isn't too low.
pieguyn
This is already rankable.
putting both at once at 5% is rankable? o.o

Implying a hitobject when the song is silent? That makes even less sense.
Sometimes you need a hold feeling with a slider but the song is quiet, and other times you might need a spinner. Other times, there's a sound but not a strong one. It's a case-by-case basis so this rule doesn't fit for some maps = =
Topic Starter
mm201
5% volume isn't considered silence. That's why it isn't 0% volume. :P
ziin

mm201 wrote:

Implying a hitobject when the song is silent? That makes even less sense.
Apparently that falls under mapper style and is completely rankable.
HakuNoKaemi
Well, that rule is actually deleteable... as hitcircles hitsounds are completely silenceable only with editing the osu file ( and the rule that ban this is arleady present, so...)
NatsumeRin
5% volume isn't considered silence
if this...we actually don't need a rule for such things...
RandomJibberish
It's considered silence when the song underneath it is too loud for it to be heard - "Hitsounds from hitcircles and sliders must be audible."

In many cases I'd say 5% isn't audible.
Sakura
I thought this was made for using a muted wav file for hitsounds, not for volume, however hitsounds should be heard (even if by very little) if the music is too loud then 5% would be unrankable as it would make the hitsounds completely unhearable, the volume level is dependant on the music volume level.
Charles445

Sakura Hana wrote:

if the music is too loud then 5% would be unrankable as it would make the hitsounds completely unhearable, the volume level is dependant on the music volume level.
Problem with this is that 'loud' music is completely subjective and based on opinion, so it wouldn't function well as a rule.

I'm content with the 5% rule, although I do agree with RJ that it is very difficult to hear at times.
Sakura

Charles445 wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

if the music is too loud then 5% would be unrankable as it would make the hitsounds completely unhearable, the volume level is dependant on the music volume level.
Problem with this is that 'loud' music is completely subjective and based on opinion, so it wouldn't function well as a rule.

I'm content with the 5% rule, although I do agree with RJ that it is very difficult to hear at times.
For all purposes intended rules are to be applied at standard settings, this means default skin and hitsound/music volume at the exact same spot (and probably other stuff im forgetting =P)
Charles445

Sakura Hana wrote:

For all purposes intended rules are to be applied at standard settings, this means default skin and hitsound/music volume at the exact same spot (and probably other stuff im forgetting =P)
I don't see how this removes the subjective nature of the issue. Some can hear quiet sounds with 100% volume and others can not. This happens even with default everything :o
Topic Starter
mm201
The reason peppy placed a 5% restriction into the game was because he thought it was a fair and reasonable minimum for most kinds of music.
I can see the 5% being too low if the music is loud, but this should be left up to modders to decide.
Charles445

mm201 wrote:

The reason peppy placed a 5% restriction into the game was because he thought it was a fair and reasonable minimum for most kinds of music.
I can see the 5% being too low if the music is loud, but this will be left up to modders to decide.
I very much agree with what you said, however the harsh reality is some mappers will completely ignore the modders and put 5% hitsounds with horribly loud background. Makes me sad just thinking about it :(
ziin
the other problem with this is that you can turn up the volume on your speakers and down the volume in osu and make virtually every hitsound silent.

This is up the the modders to decide.

The only thing that shouldn't be allowed is by an absolute rule is:
blank hitnormal WITHOUT hitclap, hitwhistle, or hitfinish
blank slidertick AND blank sliderslide WITHOUT sliderwhistle

5% volume gives enough silence to "silence" an overmapped slider end or spinner end, since osu doesn't give us a way to properly map a decrescendo.
Stefan
I am not sure if this Thread is up-to-date but bumping this.
Having 0% Volume on a Slider (which does not contain Sliderticks or Sliderbodies) or on Circles is the opposite of what a Rhythm Games should gives. Using anything under 20% should only be used if the Song fades out or got a calm part. Everything else should be avoided and pointed out in the Modding Process.
Sakura
I actually had left it here because it needed some more discussion as i've hard that this isn't being enforced at all despite it being in the wiki.
TheVileOne
I try to enforce it when its relevant. IMO slider ticks do not tell the player anything outside of flashlight in standard. It can have an effect on gameplay in CTB, especially with longer sliders.

As long as there are some degree of sound coming from the notes I think it's fine. I am a bit ignorant on the subject though. I can't think of any reason off hand where you would need to have a hitcircle at or below 10% volume. Maybe some decrescendo streams. That would be grounds for a guideline though since 95% of cases it wouldn't be allowed but there would always be that other 5%.
Stefan

TheVileOne wrote:

I try to enforce it when its relevant. IMO slider ticks do not tell the player anything outside of flashlight in standard. It can have an effect on gameplay in CTB, especially with longer sliders.
So you mean by silencing Sliders it would fit at least for long Sliders in CtB? Because afaik you need to make CtB Diffs completly audible.
Sakura

TheVileOne wrote:

I try to enforce it when its relevant. IMO slider ticks do not tell the player anything outside of flashlight in standard.
It keeps your rhythm steady while sliding (i totally made that term up).
DakeDekaane

TheVileOne wrote:

I try to enforce it when its relevant. IMO slider ticks do not tell the player anything outside of flashlight in standard. It can have an effect on gameplay in CTB, especially with longer sliders.
Slider ticks are very helpful when a map has velocity changes, makes that change readable, and I find the slidertick hitsounds very fitting while playing when the rate is used properly.

About the volume, silencing sliderslide is the only that I find reasonable, when it's too loud for the song, and spinners when they are in a fade-out part.
I'm ok with this rule, but I think very soft hitsounds shouldn't be allowed too, as in most of the times they get opaqued by the music, but this can be very subjective.
TheVileOne
I'm saying it can effect CTB in a bad way. Catching fruit without noise is more difficult.
D33d
Sliderticks are fairly important in standard. The tick rate should be set to the most dense rhythm in the music and hearing the ticks makes it more obvious that the entire slider has been hit. Besides, it just sounds better.

Hitsounds should never be silent, otherwise the objects are pointless. If the song has loads of silence, then the ticks should be considered as an augmentation of the song, whether or not it means having to use different sounds. If nothing sounds right over an extended soft section, then either reconsider your approach to mapping, cut that section out or stop mapping the song.
Mithos
How about this: If you can't distinguish a song's hitobjects by sound alone (assuming people are using different hitsounds for the different hitobjects), it's unrankable. Not saying you have to point out every hitobject at 100% speed while the song is going, but if you slow it down or do hitobject by hitobject, you should be able to tell the difference.
TheVileOne
The rule looks perfectly enforceable currently. If you feel that audible means that it must be distinguishable from the music, then mention it as unrankable with that reason. The rule states that silencing notes for a dampening is "usually fine". You can give judgment on what this means. I think some mappers would not want to have their silenced sliders become unrankable, because it tends to sound bad with certain songs.

osu! should provide a sufficient collection of resources to producea decently sounding beatmap. The very fact that using custom hitsounds is sometimes a requirement for a quality beatmap is a disservice to mappers and removes some leverage on the developer/staff side in my opinion. If you want to ban silent slider-slides/sliderticks, then I think it is absolutely necessary to provide an alternative that works just as well as using a silenced slider-slide in the official release. It's not like it's feasible to drop the volume to 5% for each slider body like you can do with hitcircles. It might be possible in the future though.

Until there is a way to adjust just the slider-slide without affecting the slider tick do I think we should be considering making silent slider-slide unrankable. Similarly we should be able to adjust slider tick volume per object as well or provide alternate slider tick hitsounds before we ban silencing slider ticks. It would not be fair to mappers otherwise.
HakuNoKaemi

mm201 wrote:

Hitsounds from hitcircles and sliders must be audible on all occasions, minus the one described here. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense. If you don't like the default sounds, then find replacements rather than silencing notes. You can use hitsounds from the Custom Hitsound Library or easily find others online. Lowering the volume of a few notes to provide a dampened effect is usually fine, but complete silence is always unacceptable. The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent, but only do it if it makes sense. Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together.
It's good as it is now. Though adding the underlined part might make more visible that there actually are some exceptions (as the rule don't state it as now)
I'm not that good at wording, so if you feel some different words might work, you can change it.
DJKero
For Osu!Mania would be really helpful, but need to be rank-able.
D33d
Really, I still think that we should get a bit more specific and consider whether the hitsounds in maps sound like they're separate from the mix of the track. I tend to play maps whose hitsounds blend entirely with the music, thus making them completely unremarkable and lacking in any kind of additive tactility. Whether it's simply that they're too quiet to feel distinct or whether the hitsounds match instruments in the music, they don't make me feel like I'm actually playing on top of the song.
Mithos
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/26694

The hitsounds cover the entire drum kit, and it's one of my favourite songs for hitsounds. It actually seems to make the song sound better.

Hitsounds should be clearly audible without increasing the effects volume. If a player can't hear a hitsound over the music, the hitsound should be brought up considerably until it is audible. Obviously slower, lighter songs will use softer volume on hitsounds, but instead of killing the hitsound volume, you should use custom hitsounds that complement the song better than either of the defaults.

And for anyone complaining about how "a bunch of people play better without hitsounds", I would like to direct you to the effect slider in the audio tab in options.
D33d

Mithost wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/26694

The hitsounds cover the entire drum kit, and it's one of my favourite songs for hitsounds. It actually seems to make the song sound better.

Hitsounds should be clearly audible without increasing the effects volume. If a player can't hear a hitsound over the music, the hitsound should be brought up considerably until it is audible. Obviously slower, lighter songs will use softer volume on hitsounds, but instead of killing the hitsound volume, you should use custom hitsounds that complement the song better than either of the defaults.

And for anyone complaining about how "a bunch of people play better without hitsounds", I would like to direct you to the effect slider in the audio tab in options.
The hitsounds in that are very effective, because they have presence. They made me feel like I was contributing to the song when I was playing it. As long as hitsounds augment what is happening in the song, one can use similar hitsounds to the track's percussion and they'll sound like hitsounds. The osu! defaults will almost always sound slightly different anyway, so they merely need to be audible enough to sit above the mix.
HakuNoKaemi
If you need to silence something different than a spinner end or sliderslide/slidertick, you're mapping it wrong.
REALLY WRONG.
So I support a rule that takes into accounts those two exceptions
TheVileOne
What are we actually discussing? The OP and the most recent posts have suggested no alterations to the existing rule. What's wrong with the rule as it is currently described?
HakuNoKaemi
this shall be marked with a Flame

Rules/Guidelines that result in 'no change' after discussion will be marked with a flame.
Loctav

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

this shall be marked with a Flame

Rules/Guidelines that result in 'no change' after discussion will be marked with a flame.
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