Just logged in after years to check some things and then I see this... Congratz!
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Knife Party - Bonfire [Osu|Taiko]
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We discussed with other BATs and this needs to get unranked due to 00:55:182 (1) -unclear path on the top and it covers itself, you should get this fixed asap so I can re-qualify! (and the other same kind of sliders too)
sorry for the inconvenience!
edit: Told Inv to nerf the wiggle sliders too
sorry for the inconvenience!
edit: Told Inv to nerf the wiggle sliders too
How about adjusting the rule instead of unranking this. Even peppy said it was fine.
1) They're totally playable. Even if you go on the other side, you don't miss.
2) Okay, let's assume you really miss now. Who cares - you can replay it, can't you? The map is enjoyed by many people apparently, I didn't really see a flame about those sliders. Yes, it might be a rule but .. you should also see yourself what's okay and what not.
1) They're totally playable. Even if you go on the other side, you don't miss.
2) Okay, let's assume you really miss now. Who cares - you can replay it, can't you? The map is enjoyed by many people apparently, I didn't really see a flame about those sliders. Yes, it might be a rule but .. you should also see yourself what's okay and what not.
Topic Starter
dank
Gonna ask some other BATs regarding the wobble sliders. I am seriously not sure about how it is unrankable, as they play totally fine (these didn't make you break any combo at all even on first plays)
Gonna ask some other BATs regarding the wobble sliders. I am seriously not sure about how it is unrankable, as they play totally fine (these didn't make you break any combo at all even on first plays)
that rule seriously needs to be reworded. The rule was made to avoid extremely wobbly sliders and burai sliders. This case isn't any of these, so it shouldn't be a problem. The slider is completely readable and playable.
;_;inverness wrote:
rip la turn allmods
Good luck getting this re-ranked <3
congrats on first unranked map, inverness!
/me runs wildly*
well, if you drag your cursor to the left at those wubble slider it wont make slider-miss too but meh
/me runs wildly*
well, if you drag your cursor to the left at those wubble slider it wont make slider-miss too but meh
Kinda sucks. I think some maps were also changed because of that rule and now that they finally decide to change the wording.
On topic. Slider was awesome. Although gives me a good reason to replay this map and aim for FC.
On topic. Slider was awesome. Although gives me a good reason to replay this map and aim for FC.
I pretended like I knew what was going on for a while.
SPOILER
2014-07-13 19:11 Garven: Hi
2014-07-13 19:11 inverness: omg its garven O.o
2014-07-13 19:11 inverness: how can i help you this morning? :3
2014-07-13 19:11 Garven: Apparently I'm getting dragged into your recent unrank haha
2014-07-13 19:11 Garven: I'm not exactly sure what's going on
2014-07-13 19:11 inverness: Oh,
2014-07-13 19:11 inverness: so um
2014-07-13 19:11 Garven: but the map isn't going to go anywhere until you at least address the unranking post.
2014-07-13 19:12 Garven: Right now all I see is some sarcastic "rip" post which makes me think you're just being an ass
2014-07-13 19:12 inverness: rip?
2014-07-13 19:12 Garven: p/3231578
2014-07-13 19:13 inverness: uhh well that was just for the lulz
2014-07-13 19:13 inverness: in serious,
2014-07-13 19:13 inverness: i've asked like some bats and they're okay with the issue
2014-07-13 19:13 inverness: So here's the issue:
2014-07-13 19:14 Garven: From what I recall, peppy suggested that you make the curve on the problem sliders more rounded
2014-07-13 19:14 inverness: http://puu.sh/aafpV/838a4b13fd.jpg A BAT says that this is unrankable due to covered sliderborder on the sliderhead
2014-07-13 19:14 Garven: It'll make the slider play the same but will look more readable
2014-07-13 19:14 inverness: yes
2014-07-13 19:15 inverness: Well the issue is this is actually readable enough
2014-07-13 19:15 inverness: problem*
2014-07-13 19:15 inverness: and relying on slider leniency nothing should become problem in playing this
2014-07-13 19:15 Garven: It's good practice to have the slider borders visible
2014-07-13 19:15 inverness: Huh?
2014-07-13 19:15 Garven: So if you could maybe alter the curve so that it's a bit further out but it will essentially play the same
2014-07-13 19:16 inverness: uh like how, I actually couldn't do anything much in altering the shape
2014-07-13 19:16 inverness: due to limited length in SV
2014-07-13 19:16 inverness: theres no way i can change it except making it ugly
2014-07-13 19:16 inverness: and really, no one is actually having any problem here unless some people
2014-07-13 19:17 inverness: which i see they're just way too cautious and relying on outdated ranking critera
2014-07-13 19:17 Garven: Sorry for trying to adhere to guidelines we've had for a long time
2014-07-13 19:17 Garven: But anyway
2014-07-13 19:18 Garven: A 5-second slider but the general illustration: http://puu.sh/aafHy/c0b6542302.jpg
2014-07-13 19:18 Garven: You can tell the direction it's going to go and the general playability won't really be effected
2014-07-13 19:19 inverness: Isn't the curve in my slider already show how the direction is going?
2014-07-13 19:20 inverness: it's like, spiral movement
2014-07-13 19:20 inverness: this does not affect general playability at all in first glance
2014-07-13 19:20 inverness: On most players.
2014-07-13 19:20 Garven: But it's so tight around the hitcircle itself that it's pretty much stopping all movement of the slider
2014-07-13 19:21 Garven: Which should make upper-level modders cautious since it's getting to the point of the buraiish stuff
2014-07-13 19:21 inverness: But it's visible enough to see the movements of the sliderball
2014-07-13 19:21 inverness: in which most players could easily follow
2014-07-13 19:21 Garven: I'm talking about the overall movement though
2014-07-13 19:22 Garven: With that slider, you're essentially pausing before the ball starts moving again
2014-07-13 19:22 Garven: Or at least that you'll have to move your cursor to follow it
2014-07-13 19:22 inverness: Yeah I see
2014-07-13 19:22 Garven: I'm sure with the area leniency people won't be missing, but it's similar in concept to having a crazy wiggle at the start before the slider moves again
2014-07-13 19:23 Garven: That's where I am coming from.
2014-07-13 19:23 inverness: Mh but I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't have any problem with it and they'll be like "what was that? oh i've passed it ok nvm"
2014-07-13 19:23 inverness: But
2014-07-13 19:23 Garven: You really don't want people asking that though
2014-07-13 19:23 Garven: That smells of a readability problem if that's happening.
2014-07-13 19:23 inverness: If the paused movement of the slider basically makes sense, why not
2014-07-13 19:23 inverness: ?
2014-07-13 19:24 inverness: Like i
2014-07-13 19:24 inverness: Like i'm pretty sure it is totaly readable (there's a wiggle in the sliderhead, hence you know what to do)
2014-07-13 19:24 inverness: Unlike burai sliedrs in which they're unreadable
2014-07-13 19:25 Garven: Well, the reason we frown on the extreme wiggles is because you don't know how long the wiggle effect is going to last.
2014-07-13 19:25 Garven: So I suppose you could argue that with the curve you have a better idea of how long it's going to last
2014-07-13 19:25 Garven: That said, I'd still like it to be expanded a little bit just for general reduction of 'wtf'
2014-07-13 19:26 inverness: Well here you can clearly see the csliderball is "revolving" the wiggle in a very obvious way
2014-07-13 19:26 Garven: Does that sound fair?
2014-07-13 19:26 inverness: Uh like how? I couldn't reproduce
2014-07-13 19:26 Garven: Can you /np the map?
2014-07-13 19:26 Garven: I don't even have it :U
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: oh LOL i thought you were arguing about this along witht he map
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: ACTION is editing [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/281918 Knife Party - Bonfire [Rage]]
2014-07-13 19:27 Garven: Nope
2014-07-13 19:27 Garven: I'm just talknig about the concepts of mapping
2014-07-13 19:27 Garven: Have a timestamp?
2014-07-13 19:27 Garven: I'm assuming in the hardest difficulty
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: Well you had to look on the map in order to understand how the mapper---
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: 00:55:182 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: yes, i nped the rage dif
2014-07-13 19:28 Garven: There are basics in mapping that apply to any map. You don't need musical context
2014-07-13 19:28 inverness: Sometimes you do
2014-07-13 19:28 inverness: Like for example you can't use wiggles everywhere you want
2014-07-13 19:28 inverness: Here I use it to follow the drill sound from the dubstep drop
2014-07-13 19:30 Garven: Couldn't you do something similar to 01:06:216 (1) - then?
2014-07-13 19:30 Garven: It'd make your map more consistent anyway
2014-07-13 19:30 inverness: I'd like some variations :I
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: Like tell me you wouldn't like so much copy paste in shapes
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: of the slider
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: that's just uncreative
2014-07-13 19:31 Garven: 01:39:320 (1) - You sure about that?
2014-07-13 19:31 Garven: And you obviously don't know me
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: It's well it's different
2014-07-13 19:31 Garven: I actually like copy/pasted stuff
2014-07-13 19:31 Garven: As long as the pasted pattern is actually good
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: In fact I don't know a lot
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: I can see
2014-07-13 19:32 inverness: But oh well what i mean by variations here is like
2014-07-13 19:32 Garven: I understand what you mean, don't worry
2014-07-13 19:32 inverness: I dont want to reuse 1 slider like so many times
2014-07-13 19:32 inverness:
2014-07-13 19:32 Garven: You can always... try to make similar ones but not actual copy/pastes you know
2014-07-13 19:32 inverness: Yeah
2014-07-13 19:33 Garven: You want to give a similar feeling at least without outright copy/pasting
2014-07-13 19:33 Garven: So using jumps in the same places as the music repeats etc.
2014-07-13 19:33 inverness: I see
2014-07-13 19:34 Garven: From what I see you have a good grasp on rhythm at least, which is refreshing
2014-07-13 19:34 inverness: I take that as a compliment
2014-07-13 19:34 Garven: I don't like the extended sliders everywhere, but everyone is doing it. #oldfartrage
2014-07-13 19:34 Garven: But yeah, honestly you use those wiggle sliders all over anyway. I don't see why having two more will break the feel of the map.
2014-07-13 19:35 inverness:
2014-07-13 19:35 Garven: If you used those spinny sliders -more- then I'd suggest you use them instead
2014-07-13 19:35 Garven: But since they are the minority, I'd say use more wiggles
2014-07-13 19:35 Garven: It'd fit more with the design of the verses too like at 02:01:389 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:36 inverness: Hmmm, their current presence is balanced enough imo
2014-07-13 19:36 inverness: And I prefer to use the wiggly sliders only at the drop
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: The weird thing is that you didn't use the spinning slider at the same points in the song
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: 00:55:182 (1) - This one is the start of the chorus
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: When it happens again in the same chorus, it's a wiggle slider01:06:216 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:37 inverness: Hmm
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: But then at the next one, you start with a wiggle
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: 01:39:320 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:37 inverness: Maybe because I like it this way?
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: And continue the wiggle 01:50:354 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: I'm just speaking from a consistency perspective here
2014-07-13 19:38 inverness: I can see that
2014-07-13 19:38 Garven: The second spinning slider isn't even at the same point in the song 01:42:078 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:38 Garven: So I don't even see what youre talking about with using it at the drop
2014-07-13 19:39 Garven: Anyway, I wasn't planning on modding this late today since I have stuff to do so uh
2014-07-13 19:39 inverness: But Irre asked you to give your opinions on the sliders only :S
2014-07-13 19:39 Garven: I'll just post this in the thread or something. Maybe we can continue later
2014-07-13 19:40 inverness: Sure thing
2014-07-13 19:40 Garven: I have a tendancy to mod more than just what was asked
2014-07-13 19:40 inverness: Thanks by the way
2014-07-13 19:40 Garven: Since getting the big picture helps a lot
2014-07-13 19:40 inverness: ah
2014-07-13 19:11 inverness: omg its garven O.o
2014-07-13 19:11 inverness: how can i help you this morning? :3
2014-07-13 19:11 Garven: Apparently I'm getting dragged into your recent unrank haha
2014-07-13 19:11 Garven: I'm not exactly sure what's going on
2014-07-13 19:11 inverness: Oh,
2014-07-13 19:11 inverness: so um
2014-07-13 19:11 Garven: but the map isn't going to go anywhere until you at least address the unranking post.
2014-07-13 19:12 Garven: Right now all I see is some sarcastic "rip" post which makes me think you're just being an ass
2014-07-13 19:12 inverness: rip?
2014-07-13 19:12 Garven: p/3231578
2014-07-13 19:13 inverness: uhh well that was just for the lulz
2014-07-13 19:13 inverness: in serious,
2014-07-13 19:13 inverness: i've asked like some bats and they're okay with the issue
2014-07-13 19:13 inverness: So here's the issue:
2014-07-13 19:14 Garven: From what I recall, peppy suggested that you make the curve on the problem sliders more rounded
2014-07-13 19:14 inverness: http://puu.sh/aafpV/838a4b13fd.jpg A BAT says that this is unrankable due to covered sliderborder on the sliderhead
2014-07-13 19:14 Garven: It'll make the slider play the same but will look more readable
2014-07-13 19:14 inverness: yes
2014-07-13 19:15 inverness: Well the issue is this is actually readable enough
2014-07-13 19:15 inverness: problem*
2014-07-13 19:15 inverness: and relying on slider leniency nothing should become problem in playing this
2014-07-13 19:15 Garven: It's good practice to have the slider borders visible
2014-07-13 19:15 inverness: Huh?
2014-07-13 19:15 Garven: So if you could maybe alter the curve so that it's a bit further out but it will essentially play the same
2014-07-13 19:16 inverness: uh like how, I actually couldn't do anything much in altering the shape
2014-07-13 19:16 inverness: due to limited length in SV
2014-07-13 19:16 inverness: theres no way i can change it except making it ugly
2014-07-13 19:16 inverness: and really, no one is actually having any problem here unless some people
2014-07-13 19:17 inverness: which i see they're just way too cautious and relying on outdated ranking critera
2014-07-13 19:17 Garven: Sorry for trying to adhere to guidelines we've had for a long time
2014-07-13 19:17 Garven: But anyway
2014-07-13 19:18 Garven: A 5-second slider but the general illustration: http://puu.sh/aafHy/c0b6542302.jpg
2014-07-13 19:18 Garven: You can tell the direction it's going to go and the general playability won't really be effected
2014-07-13 19:19 inverness: Isn't the curve in my slider already show how the direction is going?
2014-07-13 19:20 inverness: it's like, spiral movement
2014-07-13 19:20 inverness: this does not affect general playability at all in first glance
2014-07-13 19:20 inverness: On most players.
2014-07-13 19:20 Garven: But it's so tight around the hitcircle itself that it's pretty much stopping all movement of the slider
2014-07-13 19:21 Garven: Which should make upper-level modders cautious since it's getting to the point of the buraiish stuff
2014-07-13 19:21 inverness: But it's visible enough to see the movements of the sliderball
2014-07-13 19:21 inverness: in which most players could easily follow
2014-07-13 19:21 Garven: I'm talking about the overall movement though
2014-07-13 19:22 Garven: With that slider, you're essentially pausing before the ball starts moving again
2014-07-13 19:22 Garven: Or at least that you'll have to move your cursor to follow it
2014-07-13 19:22 inverness: Yeah I see
2014-07-13 19:22 Garven: I'm sure with the area leniency people won't be missing, but it's similar in concept to having a crazy wiggle at the start before the slider moves again
2014-07-13 19:23 Garven: That's where I am coming from.
2014-07-13 19:23 inverness: Mh but I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't have any problem with it and they'll be like "what was that? oh i've passed it ok nvm"
2014-07-13 19:23 inverness: But
2014-07-13 19:23 Garven: You really don't want people asking that though
2014-07-13 19:23 Garven: That smells of a readability problem if that's happening.
2014-07-13 19:23 inverness: If the paused movement of the slider basically makes sense, why not
2014-07-13 19:23 inverness: ?
2014-07-13 19:24 inverness: Like i
2014-07-13 19:24 inverness: Like i'm pretty sure it is totaly readable (there's a wiggle in the sliderhead, hence you know what to do)
2014-07-13 19:24 inverness: Unlike burai sliedrs in which they're unreadable
2014-07-13 19:25 Garven: Well, the reason we frown on the extreme wiggles is because you don't know how long the wiggle effect is going to last.
2014-07-13 19:25 Garven: So I suppose you could argue that with the curve you have a better idea of how long it's going to last
2014-07-13 19:25 Garven: That said, I'd still like it to be expanded a little bit just for general reduction of 'wtf'
2014-07-13 19:26 inverness: Well here you can clearly see the csliderball is "revolving" the wiggle in a very obvious way
2014-07-13 19:26 Garven: Does that sound fair?
2014-07-13 19:26 inverness: Uh like how? I couldn't reproduce
2014-07-13 19:26 Garven: Can you /np the map?
2014-07-13 19:26 Garven: I don't even have it :U
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: oh LOL i thought you were arguing about this along witht he map
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: ACTION is editing [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/281918 Knife Party - Bonfire [Rage]]
2014-07-13 19:27 Garven: Nope
2014-07-13 19:27 Garven: I'm just talknig about the concepts of mapping
2014-07-13 19:27 Garven: Have a timestamp?
2014-07-13 19:27 Garven: I'm assuming in the hardest difficulty
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: Well you had to look on the map in order to understand how the mapper---
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: 00:55:182 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:27 inverness: yes, i nped the rage dif
2014-07-13 19:28 Garven: There are basics in mapping that apply to any map. You don't need musical context
2014-07-13 19:28 inverness: Sometimes you do
2014-07-13 19:28 inverness: Like for example you can't use wiggles everywhere you want
2014-07-13 19:28 inverness: Here I use it to follow the drill sound from the dubstep drop
2014-07-13 19:30 Garven: Couldn't you do something similar to 01:06:216 (1) - then?
2014-07-13 19:30 Garven: It'd make your map more consistent anyway
2014-07-13 19:30 inverness: I'd like some variations :I
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: Like tell me you wouldn't like so much copy paste in shapes
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: of the slider
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: that's just uncreative
2014-07-13 19:31 Garven: 01:39:320 (1) - You sure about that?
2014-07-13 19:31 Garven: And you obviously don't know me
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: It's well it's different
2014-07-13 19:31 Garven: I actually like copy/pasted stuff
2014-07-13 19:31 Garven: As long as the pasted pattern is actually good
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: In fact I don't know a lot
2014-07-13 19:31 inverness: I can see
2014-07-13 19:32 inverness: But oh well what i mean by variations here is like
2014-07-13 19:32 Garven: I understand what you mean, don't worry
2014-07-13 19:32 inverness: I dont want to reuse 1 slider like so many times
2014-07-13 19:32 inverness:
2014-07-13 19:32 Garven: You can always... try to make similar ones but not actual copy/pastes you know
2014-07-13 19:32 inverness: Yeah
2014-07-13 19:33 Garven: You want to give a similar feeling at least without outright copy/pasting
2014-07-13 19:33 Garven: So using jumps in the same places as the music repeats etc.
2014-07-13 19:33 inverness: I see
2014-07-13 19:34 Garven: From what I see you have a good grasp on rhythm at least, which is refreshing
2014-07-13 19:34 inverness: I take that as a compliment
2014-07-13 19:34 Garven: I don't like the extended sliders everywhere, but everyone is doing it. #oldfartrage
2014-07-13 19:34 Garven: But yeah, honestly you use those wiggle sliders all over anyway. I don't see why having two more will break the feel of the map.
2014-07-13 19:35 inverness:
2014-07-13 19:35 Garven: If you used those spinny sliders -more- then I'd suggest you use them instead
2014-07-13 19:35 Garven: But since they are the minority, I'd say use more wiggles
2014-07-13 19:35 Garven: It'd fit more with the design of the verses too like at 02:01:389 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:36 inverness: Hmmm, their current presence is balanced enough imo
2014-07-13 19:36 inverness: And I prefer to use the wiggly sliders only at the drop
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: The weird thing is that you didn't use the spinning slider at the same points in the song
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: 00:55:182 (1) - This one is the start of the chorus
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: When it happens again in the same chorus, it's a wiggle slider01:06:216 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:37 inverness: Hmm
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: But then at the next one, you start with a wiggle
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: 01:39:320 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:37 inverness: Maybe because I like it this way?
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: And continue the wiggle 01:50:354 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:37 Garven: I'm just speaking from a consistency perspective here
2014-07-13 19:38 inverness: I can see that
2014-07-13 19:38 Garven: The second spinning slider isn't even at the same point in the song 01:42:078 (1) -
2014-07-13 19:38 Garven: So I don't even see what youre talking about with using it at the drop
2014-07-13 19:39 Garven: Anyway, I wasn't planning on modding this late today since I have stuff to do so uh
2014-07-13 19:39 inverness: But Irre asked you to give your opinions on the sliders only :S
2014-07-13 19:39 Garven: I'll just post this in the thread or something. Maybe we can continue later
2014-07-13 19:40 inverness: Sure thing
2014-07-13 19:40 Garven: I have a tendancy to mod more than just what was asked
2014-07-13 19:40 inverness: Thanks by the way
2014-07-13 19:40 Garven: Since getting the big picture helps a lot
2014-07-13 19:40 inverness: ah
quiz-chan_DELETED
I don't see the problem here?
rerank
edit: what is an actual issue is the extremely high HP drop when you miss a note, which makes complete HP regeneration fairly hard. That's also because of the high OD in combination with high HP settings. There aren't even that many streams, to begin with and once you missed, the remaining objects are barely enough to refill the HP bar.
just my two cents though, already discussed with inv.
rerank
edit: what is an actual issue is the extremely high HP drop when you miss a note, which makes complete HP regeneration fairly hard. That's also because of the high OD in combination with high HP settings. There aren't even that many streams, to begin with and once you missed, the remaining objects are barely enough to refill the HP bar.
just my two cents though, already discussed with inv.
I am sure someone misunderstood the rule. This kind of slider has been ranked for at least 5 times after the rule is determined iirc (I also have a ranked guest diff which contains this shape) The rule is used to avoid EXTREMELY overlapped sliders ( so-called "Burai Sliders" ). However, the slider has a clear path although it overlaps itself by approximately 45%. Then it should not be unranked imo.
Hope this helps
Hope this helps
I think this can prove why this slider wasn't allow
The slider I made is a bit ugly ( but also like your slider xD ) , but I think it's something to prove , imo , It should be unrank , sorry for my bad view
An example
[HitObjects]
391,100,55182,6,2,B|384:92|384:92|400:161|440:96|416:76|416:76|408:68|408:68|376:64|364:64|336:104|376:116|376:116|416:96|416:96|416:84|392:96|392:96|376:68|376:68|372:84|340:96|368:88|368:88|328:88|388:164|403:152|456:185|431:291,1,584.999984502793,4|0,0:0|2:0,0:0:0:0:
The slider I made is a bit ugly ( but also like your slider xD ) , but I think it's something to prove , imo , It should be unrank , sorry for my bad view
Topic Starter
Huh? I somehow failed to understand the idea of your post.bossandy wrote:
I think this can prove why this slider wasn't allowAn example[HitObjects]
391,100,55182,6,2,B|384:92|384:92|400:161|440:96|416:76|416:76|408:68|408:68|376:64|364:64|336:104|376:116|376:116|416:96|416:96|416:84|392:96|392:96|376:68|376:68|372:84|340:96|368:88|368:88|328:88|388:164|403:152|456:185|431:291,1,584.999984502793,4|0,0:0|2:0,0:0:0:0:
The slider I made is a bit ugly ( but also like your slider xD ) , but I think it's something to prove , imo , It should be unrank , sorry for my bad view
..it's completely playable, applying the rule on something that doesn't needs to be changed at all should just be left as it is. And if this is unranked because of that playable slider, and stuff that is completely unplayable is ranked, I really don't understand the reasoning behind it.p3n wrote:
This should be reranked because...
Imo the slider path seems a little doubtful, but people may infer how it will slide if they are rational enough..
This is totally playable since it doesn't really change the slider velocity, yet it makes you play as there's a hold effect, which totally fits the song.
I'm not a fan of 01:42:078 (1) -'s shape but its path is clearly understable and rankable, so I don't see why this should stay unranked in such status.
I'm not a fan of 01:42:078 (1) -'s shape but its path is clearly understable and rankable, so I don't see why this should stay unranked in such status.
Maybe you should try the object code provided with bossandy's post. The slider looks similar to your slider but goes completely nuts and is not predictable from looking at the slider alone. That is exactly why sliders like this are not allowed and why this map was unranked.inverness wrote:
Huh? I somehow failed to understand the idea of your post.
Just to inform you about what could happen:
You change the slider to make at least one slider border visible from slider head to slider ending - making it perfectly rankable.
OR
If at least 4 members of the BAT support the rank of your "flame slider" with proper individual reasoning (like Leader did) AND no one else disagrees with those reasons, you can keep them unaltered. This does not affect the few extremely ugly wiggle sliders. The ranking BAT will take responsibility for these sliders and they *could* cause you more trouble or even another unrank.
It would be a one-time exception under the current RC. The community, the mapping techniques, and the Ranking Criteria are constantly evolving. The BAT will always moderate and guide this process and specific rules and guidelines might change in the future like they did in the past. Until the details are worked out, sliders like this will remain unrankable.
Please refrain from discussing unrelated matters in this thread until the issue is resolved in one or the other way.
I fail to understand what you are trying to insinuate by using a clearly fucked up slider, and comparing it to what is in the map when they are two different things. You might as well say all sliders are unrankable since you can make a burai slider look the same as a normal one.
Nobody in their right mind is going to assume a slider actually looks like that.
Nobody in their right mind is going to assume a slider actually looks like that.
Looking through the responses, doesn't anyone think that the 'rage' difficulty's extremely reliant on sliders?
Feels rather excessive/dull through the initial playthrough, almost felt like the beatmap was a looping pattern.
Would adding more percussion-based notes (i.e timed to the double time hihats or ride cymbals) help liven the map up?
Feels rather excessive/dull through the initial playthrough, almost felt like the beatmap was a looping pattern.
Would adding more percussion-based notes (i.e timed to the double time hihats or ride cymbals) help liven the map up?
First time I tried the Rage map I thought sliders were awesome and fun and very fine to play. Slider in question has NEVER given me trouble with the map, if that makes any difference to anyone here.
Topic Starter
Lach's reply had already represented what I'm actually going to say. This slider shape is totally rational as most people would expect it to slide the way they thought (rotating counterclockwisely around the head and slides onto the tail). And why would I (or some other sane mappers) for example made this kind of slider the way bossandy's sample slider made? That's just fucked up, it's like trying to put traps and shit in a bad way (although technically, my slider and his slider has similarity in gameplay, where we don't even have to move our cursors while the sliderball is rotating/nutting, thanks to slider leniency).
I do not understand why this map has been unranked for almost two weeks because of a single slider type that the absolute majority in this thread agreeon being completely readable, fitting the song and easy to play in every way. No sane player would ever assume that the slider would spend a long amount of time going around in circles at the very top, they'd think it was going almost straight down towards the sliderend, and since the slider actually DOES do this, there's no reason to argue otherwise.
I still wish you would at least use them in a consistent way instead of the current random placement. The map itself could use improving, even if you're steadfastly against fixing the shape of just those particular sliders.
so and now nothing happens or what
did we go back in time
Posts got deleted?
Something will happen, final decisions needs to come.Nwolf wrote:
so and now nothing happens or what
Unneeded flame and unconstructive critic isn't wished and they are gone.Sonnyc wrote:
Posts got deleted?
This is still unranked?
I was just trying to point out that the rule is actually archaic and needed to be rethought. I understand the point of having strict rules, but shouldn't the final judgement call come down to common sense? This is really baffling
Also the whole 4 BATs thing seems a tad bit plucked out of the sky. Who decided on that?
I was just trying to point out that the rule is actually archaic and needed to be rethought. I understand the point of having strict rules, but shouldn't the final judgement call come down to common sense? This is really baffling
Also the whole 4 BATs thing seems a tad bit plucked out of the sky. Who decided on that?
I love this mapset, all the diffs are great and the storyboard is nice~ top tier, those fades <3
Re-rank soon
Re-rank soon
U guys are overthinking this too much. in the end, it all comes down to one question; "Is it playable"
Just play it yourselves and see if you sliderbroke or not. Personally, i found it fine, wasn't confusing at all
Just play it yourselves and see if you sliderbroke or not. Personally, i found it fine, wasn't confusing at all
I'm not an osu!-BAT, neither am I fully skilled player in this mode, which is why some points might be at some way wrong. But I would still like to say something about this topic.
Pretty long post, huh? Sorry if anything I said might be totally wrong. After all, I'm rather a Taiko Mapper / Modder.
- In my opinion we should give this a go, not only because this map-set has been unranked 3 weeks ago.
I understand the purpose of the unrank, especially when we look into the future; preventing people to use this map as example to justify their "burai-sliders", which, if I'm honest, in this case really isn't a big problem at all. I didn't read yet that this is something considered as extrem case and I don't see it either as one. Beside that, I played the map now the very first time, and even for me it was pretty much clear where that slider is going(maybe because you notice for a really short amount of time in what direction it expands?). So at this point I would rather prefere to give the slider a go, instead of keeping it unranked because of similar cases which are possible in the future. Makes me come to the next point... - I'm a Taiko mapper, and patterns are for us really important, especially how they work to the music. Thumb of rule is to see if the pattern sound(placement), look and plays well. In osu I guess, the sound isn't that important at all, but looking at the placement, the slider does fit well to the song's flow, considering its shape to it. Additional to this, playwise it isn't that tricky at all as I mentioned above. I can't explain it as good as some of you guys can do, but it looks pretty clear where this slider is actually going.
About the look of the slider we can argue I guess. But in this case, it should be up to the mapper since it isn't anything that is absolutley considered as ugly or a no-go(that's why I think it's no problem for further mapping. If something really atrocious happens in the future, we can stop that really easily. Community does help in this matter sometimes as well). In this case, it's the mappers own fault if people rate the map bad because they dislike the slider. It will also scratch on the mappers image, but that's not something we should deal with.
I can share concerns about a map as whole, but not because of one single slider(in this case two), while everything else seems to be okay. Asking mapper to take care of this next time helps in my opinion more as enforcing many things everytime. - Beside the mapping way, I also want to mention the behavior of the mapper and the song itself. The mapper probably didn't response always in a nice or for other people logical way - in other words: beeing stubborn. But if you ask me, we have to look at the overall picture.
Letting this unranked because of one single slider, prevents us of having more genres in a game which is ruled by TV Size maps or other similar genres.
We do not have often such songs compared to anime themes, which is why I think it would be a waste letting it unranked. It is also a pitty for the players (AND TAIKO).
Two BATs who approve this already: p/3257668 , p/3259450 - One last word from me:
In case some BAT still say this must stay unranked(which I probably wouldn't understand with my current knowledge), I could add only one thing I would critizies about: The so called "burai-sliders" are placed on different stanzas which gives me a questionmark. 00:55:182 (1) - Here it's at the beginning of the kiai (first stanza) while 01:42:078 (1) - appears in the second one. What confuses me even more is the fact that at 01:06:216 (1) - no "burai"-slider" appears, even though it's the same sounding and a similar stanza constellation. Same applies to the part at 01:50:354.
That would be the only reason for me, either to remove them or add at said timelines new "burai-sliders".
Pretty long post, huh? Sorry if anything I said might be totally wrong. After all, I'm rather a Taiko Mapper / Modder.
no Q_Q
Topic Starter
Blank update to keep the map out of the graveyard.
Regarding unstated reasons from me why it should stay as it is, it's simply because I already stated it most of the times on people (including BATs and staffs) that questioned the slider rankability in the first place. It's basically a super simple reason, it's playable and readable to most people, and everything else such as minor technical and asthetic aspects reason follows. Really, it's that simple.
Also thanks to everyone else that helped pointing out the issues.
Regarding unstated reasons from me why it should stay as it is, it's simply because I already stated it most of the times on people (including BATs and staffs) that questioned the slider rankability in the first place. It's basically a super simple reason, it's playable and readable to most people, and everything else such as minor technical and asthetic aspects reason follows. Really, it's that simple.
Also thanks to everyone else that helped pointing out the issues.
Well, I'll provide an actual response instead of just a video quoting Leader.
Since the slider isn't how bossandy's theory slider is, the lane is actually not breaking outside of the actual circle that it makes. That is what it "could" be but not what it actually is. No player would hold it there with how smooth the actually goes in a circle. As for the direction, it's very clear due to the sharp edge here.
This was my first play of the map when it was, it was actually fairly simple and I've actually had more problems on the wiggle sliders in the middle after I cut the first part.
Since the slider isn't how bossandy's theory slider is, the lane is actually not breaking outside of the actual circle that it makes. That is what it "could" be but not what it actually is. No player would hold it there with how smooth the actually goes in a circle. As for the direction, it's very clear due to the sharp edge here.
This was my first play of the map when it was, it was actually fairly simple and I've actually had more problems on the wiggle sliders in the middle after I cut the first part.
So apparently this map was sent to die over "ambiguous" sliders.
Let's have a look at them, logically.
This post is assuming sliderstyle is default, not crescent style. The pictures in the post are using crescent style for more detail.
To start, I'm going to bring up a pattern you probably have seen before.
It's the slider loop.
Slider loops in the past have caused concern due to the natural slider overlapping they have. The fear was that they could be designed to be misleading, like the picture below.
Many people loved loops, however, and it was visually clear when they were being used. Because of this, an exception was made and loops stayed a rankable pattern. Fake loops were deemed unrankable as they were misleading, not misleading because of their overlap, but misleading because they looked like real loops, something they were not.
Over time loops became very easy to spot, even when the loops were very small, so small that there was no hole in the center. They were still readable though as the bulge of slider implied a loop, as it always had.
This effect is present even when said bulge is close to the startpoint.
Closer and closer, it was still obvious that the slider was going to make a loop.
The circular bulge implies the loop, and nothing else.
That is where Bonfire's slider comes from.
Normally, ambiguity causes unreadability, but this is a slider loop. A slider loop implies a straightforward path as has been developed by so many slider loops before it.
Let's have a look at them, logically.
This post is assuming sliderstyle is default, not crescent style. The pictures in the post are using crescent style for more detail.
To start, I'm going to bring up a pattern you probably have seen before.
It's the slider loop.
Slider loops in the past have caused concern due to the natural slider overlapping they have. The fear was that they could be designed to be misleading, like the picture below.
Many people loved loops, however, and it was visually clear when they were being used. Because of this, an exception was made and loops stayed a rankable pattern. Fake loops were deemed unrankable as they were misleading, not misleading because of their overlap, but misleading because they looked like real loops, something they were not.
Over time loops became very easy to spot, even when the loops were very small, so small that there was no hole in the center. They were still readable though as the bulge of slider implied a loop, as it always had.
This effect is present even when said bulge is close to the startpoint.
Closer and closer, it was still obvious that the slider was going to make a loop.
The circular bulge implies the loop, and nothing else.
That is where Bonfire's slider comes from.
Normally, ambiguity causes unreadability, but this is a slider loop. A slider loop implies a straightforward path as has been developed by so many slider loops before it.
LOL I wonder I've never seen so many BATs in 1 thread.
Anyways I "love" when I can see them tweaking about rankability when something is more readable & rankable than an accurate 2014 style and most of ranked maps but I guess I'm too blonde to understand it. Just rank it instead of posting LOL2.
Anyways I "love" when I can see them tweaking about rankability when something is more readable & rankable than an accurate 2014 style and most of ranked maps but I guess I'm too blonde to understand it. Just rank it instead of posting LOL2.
Maeglwn
http://puu.sh/aIkq5.rar
This is a couple of replays of the Difficulty with the Slider we are currently talking about. None of the players has either tried or seen the map before and therefore recorded their first try ever.
There were some problems for players to read the slider, but not for everyone. Players with a rank under 10k were able to read it, players less than 10k had some more problems. But basically, they all scored a 300.
Actually, it seemed like they had less of a problem with this slider than with one of the following ones, being 01:06:216 (1) - .
On the players' accounts, they stated that the discussed slider was not really a problem for them to hit.
Don't know how this helps, but I think it does.
This is a couple of replays of the Difficulty with the Slider we are currently talking about. None of the players has either tried or seen the map before and therefore recorded their first try ever.
There were some problems for players to read the slider, but not for everyone. Players with a rank under 10k were able to read it, players less than 10k had some more problems. But basically, they all scored a 300.
Actually, it seemed like they had less of a problem with this slider than with one of the following ones, being 01:06:216 (1) - .
On the players' accounts, they stated that the discussed slider was not really a problem for them to hit.
Don't know how this helps, but I think it does.
"Hey look, it's a straight slider, easy to read"
"Actually it goes back and forth dozens of times, it's not sightreadable"
"We shouldn't allow straight sliders because they could all act like this one and you can never be 100% sure they're just simple, safe, straight sliders."
That's the kind of logic that lead to this unrank.
However, obviously, apeshit-going sliders aren't allowed in the first place and should be modded out. No player would ever play based on the assumption that every slider can go nuts completely randomly.
Maybe I don't know something, but I want to say a little about tricky sliders. If some of the sliders are forbidden because they could be tricky (like fake straight slider example in previous post) and players couldn't read this if they just follow slider path, so what's the problem of not ranking such sliders and ranking normal sliders (like not ranking fake straight slider and ranking real straight slider)? If it looks like normal slider and it behave like normal slider - there is no problem with it. And if some of you are afraid that it could be wrong - it is NOT wrong. You simply won't let the wrong slider be ranked, and players will never see fake sliders. So they'll see this slider, they'll follow its path, and they'll pass it, because it is not tricky. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with this slider, and many proofs of its readability were given before. So this should be reranked.
I only agree on one thing that the HP drain is too high on hardest diff,I know this is a "hardest" one (although I said that, I'm sure HP drain is still acceptable) but I don't agree on the OD 9, that's WAY too high since the HP drain is also high and not an easy task to recover if you missed even only one note because only few streams present. (Well,someone said this already,so it needs to be considered to at least lower the OD,even a tick helps a lot)
Well,in short: Everything's ok,even that slider is passable by first time (sightread) players, I don't really get why this is unranked just because of that so-called "rules" (or should that rules be removed?)
This is just my opinion, I'm a normal player,and never a BAT or anything like that, pardon me if my words are a bit rude
Well,in short: Everything's ok,even that slider is passable by first time (sightread) players, I don't really get why this is unranked just because of that so-called "rules" (or should that rules be removed?)
This is just my opinion, I'm a normal player,and never a BAT or anything like that, pardon me if my words are a bit rude
wtf guys this is the most rankable thing ever
Like, this slider is even more rankable than a circle
Like, this slider is even more rankable than a circle
*sighs*
quiz-chan_DELETED
OK, let me clear something up.
There will ALWAYS be four or five BATs who share the thought of one slider being unrankable, and there will as well ALWAYS be ~1000000 people who will think the slider is totally ok.
A lot of BATs have already stated their opinion... and from this lot of BATs, only a handful of them have expressed that they are against reranking with the slider in its current state. I (and many others) do not see anything wrong with the slider.
The reason is simple; you don't even have to look closely to know what path the slider is going to follow. It's just nitpicky ranking criteria that dominates over common sense, is what I think. To all the opposing BATs: if you don't want that slider ranked, go play the map again. You see how easy it was to play it?
Sometimes I just don't get people's way of thinking, like in this case. I am a low-skill player and I played the slider 300 on first sight (mind the AR9, you don't have much time to read the path).
There will ALWAYS be four or five BATs who share the thought of one slider being unrankable, and there will as well ALWAYS be ~1000000 people who will think the slider is totally ok.
A lot of BATs have already stated their opinion... and from this lot of BATs, only a handful of them have expressed that they are against reranking with the slider in its current state. I (and many others) do not see anything wrong with the slider.
The reason is simple; you don't even have to look closely to know what path the slider is going to follow. It's just nitpicky ranking criteria that dominates over common sense, is what I think. To all the opposing BATs: if you don't want that slider ranked, go play the map again. You see how easy it was to play it?
Sometimes I just don't get people's way of thinking, like in this case. I am a low-skill player and I played the slider 300 on first sight (mind the AR9, you don't have much time to read the path).
Let me make one thing clear, please:
The objected sliders are scratching on the rankability, and even inverness knows that. The slider is overlapping in a way that it might be intersubjective clean to read, but objectively overlap in a way that the Ranking Criteria disallows it actually. I am not a friend of objective rulesets. Keep in mind that this rule exists for a good reason (see Charles' post), but the origin of the rule was to disallow exactly these sliders that are suggesting a different movement than they actually do. This is not the case here. The slider does exactly what everyone is expecting from it. Yet, the overlap is so borderline that it gets knocked down for unrankability by the actual current ranking criteria.
This does not mean that the current Ranking Criteria needs a rewording. Why? Because however you form a rule, you will always have edge cases that fall under it even if they shouldn't. I rather have 1 controversal discussion about 1 map than allowing 192409234 shitmaps to get rankable because we softened our current ruleset. The Beatmap Appreciation Team is a gatekeeper team, meaning that they enforce the ranking criteria and/or holds back a map to do a case-by-case decision if needed, even if it contradicts the current Ranking Criteria.
The rule exists for a reason, a very good one. It's like punching people. Punching people is widely disallowed by any law in this world. But there are cases where punching people should definitely be legal. Yet, it is not. Still, enforcing this law is yet a case-by-case decision. This might be a quite unrealistic comparison, but I want to line out the logic behind why the rule is fine, even if it disallows this stuff.
This unrank was warranted and caused a discussion in a way that the community and hopefully the BAT self realizes, that unranking does not only mean "this is shit" but "this needs additional revision to do a case-by-case decision". I am yet sorry for inverness that it caused quite some trouble for it, but you should not take this kind of unranks too personal. They happen, they will always happen and they have happened several times in the past. They are needed, they are important and they might show up the greyzones of our own ruleset. Greyzones will always exist, so better do not start bitching about the ranking criteria self.
As in this case: We have discussed this internally forth and back, up and down, left and right. We consulted all possible instances, I discussed quite long with inverness about this, too. In this case, I want to allow this slider shapings, since this is yet a game and this gameplay element is playing as intended and provides a positive gameplay experience. This map will not be the fundament of other stupid discussions about how rankable your "fancy sliders on map xyz" are. Consider this as an exception.
Reranked.
The objected sliders are scratching on the rankability, and even inverness knows that. The slider is overlapping in a way that it might be intersubjective clean to read, but objectively overlap in a way that the Ranking Criteria disallows it actually. I am not a friend of objective rulesets. Keep in mind that this rule exists for a good reason (see Charles' post), but the origin of the rule was to disallow exactly these sliders that are suggesting a different movement than they actually do. This is not the case here. The slider does exactly what everyone is expecting from it. Yet, the overlap is so borderline that it gets knocked down for unrankability by the actual current ranking criteria.
This does not mean that the current Ranking Criteria needs a rewording. Why? Because however you form a rule, you will always have edge cases that fall under it even if they shouldn't. I rather have 1 controversal discussion about 1 map than allowing 192409234 shitmaps to get rankable because we softened our current ruleset. The Beatmap Appreciation Team is a gatekeeper team, meaning that they enforce the ranking criteria and/or holds back a map to do a case-by-case decision if needed, even if it contradicts the current Ranking Criteria.
The rule exists for a reason, a very good one. It's like punching people. Punching people is widely disallowed by any law in this world. But there are cases where punching people should definitely be legal. Yet, it is not. Still, enforcing this law is yet a case-by-case decision. This might be a quite unrealistic comparison, but I want to line out the logic behind why the rule is fine, even if it disallows this stuff.
This unrank was warranted and caused a discussion in a way that the community and hopefully the BAT self realizes, that unranking does not only mean "this is shit" but "this needs additional revision to do a case-by-case decision". I am yet sorry for inverness that it caused quite some trouble for it, but you should not take this kind of unranks too personal. They happen, they will always happen and they have happened several times in the past. They are needed, they are important and they might show up the greyzones of our own ruleset. Greyzones will always exist, so better do not start bitching about the ranking criteria self.
As in this case: We have discussed this internally forth and back, up and down, left and right. We consulted all possible instances, I discussed quite long with inverness about this, too. In this case, I want to allow this slider shapings, since this is yet a game and this gameplay element is playing as intended and provides a positive gameplay experience. This map will not be the fundament of other stupid discussions about how rankable your "fancy sliders on map xyz" are. Consider this as an exception.
Reranked.
I'm so glad you refused to change that slider inverness. Someones gotta stand up sometime, right?
If people were complaining rather than complimenting the map, then I'd start to understand an unranking, otherwise...
GG c:
If people were complaining rather than complimenting the map, then I'd start to understand an unranking, otherwise...
GG c:
Finally :3
Topic Starter
asdf;j
FINALLY
I would like to express my huge gratitude to everyone including the staffs for all their invaluable inputs and contributions. Thank you very much, without you guys this matter would never gonna be resolved in a very well mannered way. Again, thank you so much.
Enjoy the map!
FINALLY
I would like to express my huge gratitude to everyone including the staffs for all their invaluable inputs and contributions. Thank you very much, without you guys this matter would never gonna be resolved in a very well mannered way. Again, thank you so much.
Enjoy the map!
re-ranked Congratz!
b-b-b-b-b-b-bornfire
b-b-b-b-b-b-bornfire
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
\knife party/
\knife party/
You deserved it, inverness
selamat ya \:D/
selamat ya \:D/
Good ending. Grats
Boncabe balik euyy /o/
ye
knife party ftw
Finally \O/
yaaaaaaaaa
wow yes
glad the slider issue got resolved
gratz!
gratz!
Awesome map (:
err... ranked? Thanks! this very awesome map... i very like this!! btw congratz iverness 
my first hard map i can pass with hidden mod
my first hard map i can pass with hidden mod
Congratulations!
yeeeeeeees~ !
good shit
gratz with this shit bro \o/~
Missed youuuu!
Yay rerank
I just hope that "questionable" things are brought up in the modding process before rank in the future to avoid situations like these.
I just hope that "questionable" things are brought up in the modding process before rank in the future to avoid situations like these.
FUCK YEAH!!!
ANJING LU NESS
ANJING LU NESS[2]
Congrats, hope my replays helped you. c:
Re-grats!
Glad to see this back where it belongs.
Glad to see this back where it belongs.
Man, all that discussion. Glad to see it never got over-dramatic. (reminds me of olden times: t/70065/start=135)
Congratulations on re-rank!
Congratulations on re-rank!
ANJING LU NESS[3]
wait what.
Gratz! :3/
wait what.
Gratz! :3/
One of best maps I ever played, jumps on rage diff are awesome GJ
~Firakus
~Firakus