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Knife Party - Bonfire [Osu|Taiko]
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I'm not an osu!-BAT, neither am I fully skilled player in this mode, which is why some points might be at some way wrong. But I would still like to say something about this topic.
Pretty long post, huh? Sorry if anything I said might be totally wrong. After all, I'm rather a Taiko Mapper / Modder.
- In my opinion we should give this a go, not only because this map-set has been unranked 3 weeks ago.
I understand the purpose of the unrank, especially when we look into the future; preventing people to use this map as example to justify their "burai-sliders", which, if I'm honest, in this case really isn't a big problem at all. I didn't read yet that this is something considered as extrem case and I don't see it either as one. Beside that, I played the map now the very first time, and even for me it was pretty much clear where that slider is going(maybe because you notice for a really short amount of time in what direction it expands?). So at this point I would rather prefere to give the slider a go, instead of keeping it unranked because of similar cases which are possible in the future. Makes me come to the next point... - I'm a Taiko mapper, and patterns are for us really important, especially how they work to the music. Thumb of rule is to see if the pattern sound(placement), look and plays well. In osu I guess, the sound isn't that important at all, but looking at the placement, the slider does fit well to the song's flow, considering its shape to it. Additional to this, playwise it isn't that tricky at all as I mentioned above. I can't explain it as good as some of you guys can do, but it looks pretty clear where this slider is actually going.
About the look of the slider we can argue I guess. But in this case, it should be up to the mapper since it isn't anything that is absolutley considered as ugly or a no-go(that's why I think it's no problem for further mapping. If something really atrocious happens in the future, we can stop that really easily. Community does help in this matter sometimes as well). In this case, it's the mappers own fault if people rate the map bad because they dislike the slider. It will also scratch on the mappers image, but that's not something we should deal with.
I can share concerns about a map as whole, but not because of one single slider(in this case two), while everything else seems to be okay. Asking mapper to take care of this next time helps in my opinion more as enforcing many things everytime. - Beside the mapping way, I also want to mention the behavior of the mapper and the song itself. The mapper probably didn't response always in a nice or for other people logical way - in other words: beeing stubborn. But if you ask me, we have to look at the overall picture.
Letting this unranked because of one single slider, prevents us of having more genres in a game which is ruled by TV Size maps or other similar genres.
We do not have often such songs compared to anime themes, which is why I think it would be a waste letting it unranked. It is also a pitty for the players (AND TAIKO).
Two BATs who approve this already: p/3257668 , p/3259450 - One last word from me:
In case some BAT still say this must stay unranked(which I probably wouldn't understand with my current knowledge), I could add only one thing I would critizies about: The so called "burai-sliders" are placed on different stanzas which gives me a questionmark. 00:55:182 (1) - Here it's at the beginning of the kiai (first stanza) while 01:42:078 (1) - appears in the second one. What confuses me even more is the fact that at 01:06:216 (1) - no "burai"-slider" appears, even though it's the same sounding and a similar stanza constellation. Same applies to the part at 01:50:354.
That would be the only reason for me, either to remove them or add at said timelines new "burai-sliders".
Pretty long post, huh? Sorry if anything I said might be totally wrong. After all, I'm rather a Taiko Mapper / Modder.
no Q_Q
Topic Starter
Blank update to keep the map out of the graveyard.
Regarding unstated reasons from me why it should stay as it is, it's simply because I already stated it most of the times on people (including BATs and staffs) that questioned the slider rankability in the first place. It's basically a super simple reason, it's playable and readable to most people, and everything else such as minor technical and asthetic aspects reason follows. Really, it's that simple.
Also thanks to everyone else that helped pointing out the issues.
Regarding unstated reasons from me why it should stay as it is, it's simply because I already stated it most of the times on people (including BATs and staffs) that questioned the slider rankability in the first place. It's basically a super simple reason, it's playable and readable to most people, and everything else such as minor technical and asthetic aspects reason follows. Really, it's that simple.
Also thanks to everyone else that helped pointing out the issues.
Well, I'll provide an actual response instead of just a video quoting Leader.
Since the slider isn't how bossandy's theory slider is, the lane is actually not breaking outside of the actual circle that it makes. That is what it "could" be but not what it actually is. No player would hold it there with how smooth the actually goes in a circle. As for the direction, it's very clear due to the sharp edge here.
This was my first play of the map when it was, it was actually fairly simple and I've actually had more problems on the wiggle sliders in the middle after I cut the first part.
Since the slider isn't how bossandy's theory slider is, the lane is actually not breaking outside of the actual circle that it makes. That is what it "could" be but not what it actually is. No player would hold it there with how smooth the actually goes in a circle. As for the direction, it's very clear due to the sharp edge here.
This was my first play of the map when it was, it was actually fairly simple and I've actually had more problems on the wiggle sliders in the middle after I cut the first part.
So apparently this map was sent to die over "ambiguous" sliders.
Let's have a look at them, logically.
This post is assuming sliderstyle is default, not crescent style. The pictures in the post are using crescent style for more detail.
To start, I'm going to bring up a pattern you probably have seen before.
It's the slider loop.
Slider loops in the past have caused concern due to the natural slider overlapping they have. The fear was that they could be designed to be misleading, like the picture below.
Many people loved loops, however, and it was visually clear when they were being used. Because of this, an exception was made and loops stayed a rankable pattern. Fake loops were deemed unrankable as they were misleading, not misleading because of their overlap, but misleading because they looked like real loops, something they were not.
Over time loops became very easy to spot, even when the loops were very small, so small that there was no hole in the center. They were still readable though as the bulge of slider implied a loop, as it always had.
This effect is present even when said bulge is close to the startpoint.
Closer and closer, it was still obvious that the slider was going to make a loop.
The circular bulge implies the loop, and nothing else.
That is where Bonfire's slider comes from.
Normally, ambiguity causes unreadability, but this is a slider loop. A slider loop implies a straightforward path as has been developed by so many slider loops before it.
Let's have a look at them, logically.
This post is assuming sliderstyle is default, not crescent style. The pictures in the post are using crescent style for more detail.
To start, I'm going to bring up a pattern you probably have seen before.
It's the slider loop.
Slider loops in the past have caused concern due to the natural slider overlapping they have. The fear was that they could be designed to be misleading, like the picture below.
Many people loved loops, however, and it was visually clear when they were being used. Because of this, an exception was made and loops stayed a rankable pattern. Fake loops were deemed unrankable as they were misleading, not misleading because of their overlap, but misleading because they looked like real loops, something they were not.
Over time loops became very easy to spot, even when the loops were very small, so small that there was no hole in the center. They were still readable though as the bulge of slider implied a loop, as it always had.
This effect is present even when said bulge is close to the startpoint.
Closer and closer, it was still obvious that the slider was going to make a loop.
The circular bulge implies the loop, and nothing else.
That is where Bonfire's slider comes from.
Normally, ambiguity causes unreadability, but this is a slider loop. A slider loop implies a straightforward path as has been developed by so many slider loops before it.
LOL I wonder I've never seen so many BATs in 1 thread.
Anyways I "love" when I can see them tweaking about rankability when something is more readable & rankable than an accurate 2014 style and most of ranked maps but I guess I'm too blonde to understand it. Just rank it instead of posting LOL2.
Anyways I "love" when I can see them tweaking about rankability when something is more readable & rankable than an accurate 2014 style and most of ranked maps but I guess I'm too blonde to understand it. Just rank it instead of posting LOL2.
Maeglwn
http://puu.sh/aIkq5.rar
This is a couple of replays of the Difficulty with the Slider we are currently talking about. None of the players has either tried or seen the map before and therefore recorded their first try ever.
There were some problems for players to read the slider, but not for everyone. Players with a rank under 10k were able to read it, players less than 10k had some more problems. But basically, they all scored a 300.
Actually, it seemed like they had less of a problem with this slider than with one of the following ones, being 01:06:216 (1) - .
On the players' accounts, they stated that the discussed slider was not really a problem for them to hit.
Don't know how this helps, but I think it does.
This is a couple of replays of the Difficulty with the Slider we are currently talking about. None of the players has either tried or seen the map before and therefore recorded their first try ever.
There were some problems for players to read the slider, but not for everyone. Players with a rank under 10k were able to read it, players less than 10k had some more problems. But basically, they all scored a 300.
Actually, it seemed like they had less of a problem with this slider than with one of the following ones, being 01:06:216 (1) - .
On the players' accounts, they stated that the discussed slider was not really a problem for them to hit.
Don't know how this helps, but I think it does.
"Hey look, it's a straight slider, easy to read"
"Actually it goes back and forth dozens of times, it's not sightreadable"
"We shouldn't allow straight sliders because they could all act like this one and you can never be 100% sure they're just simple, safe, straight sliders."
That's the kind of logic that lead to this unrank.
However, obviously, apeshit-going sliders aren't allowed in the first place and should be modded out. No player would ever play based on the assumption that every slider can go nuts completely randomly.
Maybe I don't know something, but I want to say a little about tricky sliders. If some of the sliders are forbidden because they could be tricky (like fake straight slider example in previous post) and players couldn't read this if they just follow slider path, so what's the problem of not ranking such sliders and ranking normal sliders (like not ranking fake straight slider and ranking real straight slider)? If it looks like normal slider and it behave like normal slider - there is no problem with it. And if some of you are afraid that it could be wrong - it is NOT wrong. You simply won't let the wrong slider be ranked, and players will never see fake sliders. So they'll see this slider, they'll follow its path, and they'll pass it, because it is not tricky. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with this slider, and many proofs of its readability were given before. So this should be reranked.
I only agree on one thing that the HP drain is too high on hardest diff,I know this is a "hardest" one (although I said that, I'm sure HP drain is still acceptable) but I don't agree on the OD 9, that's WAY too high since the HP drain is also high and not an easy task to recover if you missed even only one note because only few streams present. (Well,someone said this already,so it needs to be considered to at least lower the OD,even a tick helps a lot)
Well,in short: Everything's ok,even that slider is passable by first time (sightread) players, I don't really get why this is unranked just because of that so-called "rules" (or should that rules be removed?)
This is just my opinion, I'm a normal player,and never a BAT or anything like that, pardon me if my words are a bit rude
Well,in short: Everything's ok,even that slider is passable by first time (sightread) players, I don't really get why this is unranked just because of that so-called "rules" (or should that rules be removed?)
This is just my opinion, I'm a normal player,and never a BAT or anything like that, pardon me if my words are a bit rude
wtf guys this is the most rankable thing ever
Like, this slider is even more rankable than a circle
Like, this slider is even more rankable than a circle
*sighs*
quiz-chan_DELETED
OK, let me clear something up.
There will ALWAYS be four or five BATs who share the thought of one slider being unrankable, and there will as well ALWAYS be ~1000000 people who will think the slider is totally ok.
A lot of BATs have already stated their opinion... and from this lot of BATs, only a handful of them have expressed that they are against reranking with the slider in its current state. I (and many others) do not see anything wrong with the slider.
The reason is simple; you don't even have to look closely to know what path the slider is going to follow. It's just nitpicky ranking criteria that dominates over common sense, is what I think. To all the opposing BATs: if you don't want that slider ranked, go play the map again. You see how easy it was to play it?
Sometimes I just don't get people's way of thinking, like in this case. I am a low-skill player and I played the slider 300 on first sight (mind the AR9, you don't have much time to read the path).
There will ALWAYS be four or five BATs who share the thought of one slider being unrankable, and there will as well ALWAYS be ~1000000 people who will think the slider is totally ok.
A lot of BATs have already stated their opinion... and from this lot of BATs, only a handful of them have expressed that they are against reranking with the slider in its current state. I (and many others) do not see anything wrong with the slider.
The reason is simple; you don't even have to look closely to know what path the slider is going to follow. It's just nitpicky ranking criteria that dominates over common sense, is what I think. To all the opposing BATs: if you don't want that slider ranked, go play the map again. You see how easy it was to play it?
Sometimes I just don't get people's way of thinking, like in this case. I am a low-skill player and I played the slider 300 on first sight (mind the AR9, you don't have much time to read the path).
Let me make one thing clear, please:
The objected sliders are scratching on the rankability, and even inverness knows that. The slider is overlapping in a way that it might be intersubjective clean to read, but objectively overlap in a way that the Ranking Criteria disallows it actually. I am not a friend of objective rulesets. Keep in mind that this rule exists for a good reason (see Charles' post), but the origin of the rule was to disallow exactly these sliders that are suggesting a different movement than they actually do. This is not the case here. The slider does exactly what everyone is expecting from it. Yet, the overlap is so borderline that it gets knocked down for unrankability by the actual current ranking criteria.
This does not mean that the current Ranking Criteria needs a rewording. Why? Because however you form a rule, you will always have edge cases that fall under it even if they shouldn't. I rather have 1 controversal discussion about 1 map than allowing 192409234 shitmaps to get rankable because we softened our current ruleset. The Beatmap Appreciation Team is a gatekeeper team, meaning that they enforce the ranking criteria and/or holds back a map to do a case-by-case decision if needed, even if it contradicts the current Ranking Criteria.
The rule exists for a reason, a very good one. It's like punching people. Punching people is widely disallowed by any law in this world. But there are cases where punching people should definitely be legal. Yet, it is not. Still, enforcing this law is yet a case-by-case decision. This might be a quite unrealistic comparison, but I want to line out the logic behind why the rule is fine, even if it disallows this stuff.
This unrank was warranted and caused a discussion in a way that the community and hopefully the BAT self realizes, that unranking does not only mean "this is shit" but "this needs additional revision to do a case-by-case decision". I am yet sorry for inverness that it caused quite some trouble for it, but you should not take this kind of unranks too personal. They happen, they will always happen and they have happened several times in the past. They are needed, they are important and they might show up the greyzones of our own ruleset. Greyzones will always exist, so better do not start bitching about the ranking criteria self.
As in this case: We have discussed this internally forth and back, up and down, left and right. We consulted all possible instances, I discussed quite long with inverness about this, too. In this case, I want to allow this slider shapings, since this is yet a game and this gameplay element is playing as intended and provides a positive gameplay experience. This map will not be the fundament of other stupid discussions about how rankable your "fancy sliders on map xyz" are. Consider this as an exception.
Reranked.
The objected sliders are scratching on the rankability, and even inverness knows that. The slider is overlapping in a way that it might be intersubjective clean to read, but objectively overlap in a way that the Ranking Criteria disallows it actually. I am not a friend of objective rulesets. Keep in mind that this rule exists for a good reason (see Charles' post), but the origin of the rule was to disallow exactly these sliders that are suggesting a different movement than they actually do. This is not the case here. The slider does exactly what everyone is expecting from it. Yet, the overlap is so borderline that it gets knocked down for unrankability by the actual current ranking criteria.
This does not mean that the current Ranking Criteria needs a rewording. Why? Because however you form a rule, you will always have edge cases that fall under it even if they shouldn't. I rather have 1 controversal discussion about 1 map than allowing 192409234 shitmaps to get rankable because we softened our current ruleset. The Beatmap Appreciation Team is a gatekeeper team, meaning that they enforce the ranking criteria and/or holds back a map to do a case-by-case decision if needed, even if it contradicts the current Ranking Criteria.
The rule exists for a reason, a very good one. It's like punching people. Punching people is widely disallowed by any law in this world. But there are cases where punching people should definitely be legal. Yet, it is not. Still, enforcing this law is yet a case-by-case decision. This might be a quite unrealistic comparison, but I want to line out the logic behind why the rule is fine, even if it disallows this stuff.
This unrank was warranted and caused a discussion in a way that the community and hopefully the BAT self realizes, that unranking does not only mean "this is shit" but "this needs additional revision to do a case-by-case decision". I am yet sorry for inverness that it caused quite some trouble for it, but you should not take this kind of unranks too personal. They happen, they will always happen and they have happened several times in the past. They are needed, they are important and they might show up the greyzones of our own ruleset. Greyzones will always exist, so better do not start bitching about the ranking criteria self.
As in this case: We have discussed this internally forth and back, up and down, left and right. We consulted all possible instances, I discussed quite long with inverness about this, too. In this case, I want to allow this slider shapings, since this is yet a game and this gameplay element is playing as intended and provides a positive gameplay experience. This map will not be the fundament of other stupid discussions about how rankable your "fancy sliders on map xyz" are. Consider this as an exception.
Reranked.
I'm so glad you refused to change that slider inverness. Someones gotta stand up sometime, right?
If people were complaining rather than complimenting the map, then I'd start to understand an unranking, otherwise...
GG c:
If people were complaining rather than complimenting the map, then I'd start to understand an unranking, otherwise...
GG c:
Finally :3
Topic Starter
asdf;j
FINALLY
I would like to express my huge gratitude to everyone including the staffs for all their invaluable inputs and contributions. Thank you very much, without you guys this matter would never gonna be resolved in a very well mannered way. Again, thank you so much.
Enjoy the map!
FINALLY
I would like to express my huge gratitude to everyone including the staffs for all their invaluable inputs and contributions. Thank you very much, without you guys this matter would never gonna be resolved in a very well mannered way. Again, thank you so much.
Enjoy the map!
re-ranked Congratz!
b-b-b-b-b-b-bornfire
b-b-b-b-b-b-bornfire
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
\knife party/
\knife party/
You deserved it, inverness
selamat ya \:D/
selamat ya \:D/
Good ending. Grats
Boncabe balik euyy /o/
ye
knife party ftw
Finally \O/
yaaaaaaaaa
wow yes
glad the slider issue got resolved
gratz!
gratz!
Awesome map (:
err... ranked? Thanks! this very awesome map... i very like this!! btw congratz iverness 
my first hard map i can pass with hidden mod
my first hard map i can pass with hidden mod